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I don't like this bond


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5 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Bondsmiths of old were not qualified for "unlimited power" either. While new Bondsmiths are more powerful, their Oaths are the same.

You keep saying that Navani is unworthy, but the Sibling themselves accepted her Oath. So she judged her worthy of a bond after all.

The biggest check on Navani or any Sibling Bondsmith is that their powers are tied to the Tower. So she is a lot more restricted than Dalinar in this regard. Navani's knowledge of fabrials and engineering with access to what seems to be unlimited Investiture is a more dangerous aspect of her, in my opinion. She is much more likely to break something with flying machines or fabrial guns than Connection. 

The Sibling was all but forced into the agreement. Metaphorical gun to the head.

The Oaths are less binding now that Honor is dead, that means stricter regulations not less, or even the same, Higher standards must be applied.

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Navani and the Sibling both should have broken off the oath when the danger was over. The Sibling should have chosen Rlain, who was truly deserving. He was the bridge between humans and singers/listeners/Fused. He united. Navani should have realized that she somewhat coerced the Sibling into a bond.

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57 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

The Sibling was all but forced into the agreement. Metaphorical gun to the head.

The Oaths are less binding now that Honor is dead, that means stricter regulations not less, or even the same, Higher standards must be applied.

 

51 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Navani and the Sibling both should have broken off the oath when the danger was over. The Sibling should have chosen Rlain, who was truly deserving. He was the bridge between humans and singers/listeners/Fused. He united. Navani should have realized that she somewhat coerced the Sibling into a bond.

Navani was not the one that put the gun to anyone's head if there is a "gun" to be referred to. It was mutual survival from an outside threat that though is no longer imminent is still very present. 

I still dont see how dalinar was any more "worthy" than navani. To me the situations are near identical.

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41 minutes ago, Debarra said:

That's actually a good point. Navani didn't really unite anything this book. Like she doesn't seem to embody the Bindsmith ideals at all.

She united the stormlight and voidlight into a harmonious song resulting in light combined known as the Rhythm of War. She also united the human and spren in cause:

 

Rhythm of War page 1182

"I am sorry" Navani said "for discovering this Light. It will let spren be killed"

"It was coming to us" the Sibling said "Consequences once chased only humans. With the Recreance, the consequences became ours as well. You have simply sealed that truth as eternal"

 

Rhythm of War page 1149

"Our emulsifier" Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower

"The common ground," the Sibling said "Between humans and spren. That is....that is why I was created, so long ago..."

 

"Navani" the Sibling said "I accept your Words"

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

 It was mutual survival from an outside threat that though is no longer imminent is still very present. 

I still dont see how dalinar was any more "worthy" than navani. To me the situations are near identical.

I understand the mutual survival part. Bonding with the Sibling was fine to survive, but once the danger had passed they should have broken the bond and let Rlain be a Bondsmith.

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12 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

I understand the mutual survival part. Bonding with the Sibling was fine to survive, but once the danger had passed they should have broken the bond and let Rlain be a Bondsmith.

The danger has not passed. Odium and the fused are still a thing. They need the protections of the tower. Navani figured out the problem with the light. The sibling said that even if she bonded, she still couldn't create light, so it wouldn't accomplish anything. Navani did that. Without Navani, no new light, no protection.

Further I just added the quote where through the bond, the Sibling realizes their very creation was intended to bridge the gap between human and spren. Not between parshendi and spren. That is Venli's purpose

 

heres the quote regarding creating light. so without Navani, tower would still be vunerable and could be killed by Odium and co:

 

Rhythm of War page 799

"It's not pickiness It is the nature of spren and the bond. The person must be willing to swear he correct oaths, to unite instead of divide. They must mean it, and the oaths must be accepted. It is not simply a matter of throwing the first person you find at me. Beyond that, since I cannot create Towerlight, they will not be able to either. A bond would do nothing unless we solve the problems with my powers. It would be better if you focused on that problem instead"

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Just now, Debarra said:

I don't think the Bindsmith oaths really revolve around combining investure at all. Like anyone can do that and it's just a universal constant in their world. Bondsmiths all revolve around uniting people.

Up until Navani, Rabonel was convinced that voidlight and stormlight would destroy each other. Navani was able to unite them. Dalinar unites the three realms. Navani unites the investiture. I don't see a difference personally. 

Just now, Debarra said:

Navani also doesn't unite spren and humans. Adolin did more to do that than she did. Unless we're creating a weapon to kill all Spren and handing it to the enemy as "uniting" in which case you just end up back at the abusive nature of her bond with the Sibling in the first place.

Dalinar had not united the humans yet when he bonded the stormfather. So too Navani. To me radiance is a process, and progress. You don't start out a perfect radiant. Otherwise you would jump to oath five. Szeth was already on the path for awhile, which is why he advance so quickly in the skybreakers. Dalinar is still working to unite. He genuinely wants to. Navani is the same. 

Just now, Debarra said:

Even in terms of her relationship with the Sibling she shows no sign of being willing to compromise with them. The Sibling very clearly is not happy with that Navani is doing and Navani's response is to decide to just keep what she's doing until the Sibling makes some sort of compromise with her to allow her to continue. That is not the actions of a Bondsmith.

She said no such thing:

 

Rhythm of War page 1180

"Our bond is unusual," the sibling said "I still do not know what I think of what we've done"

"If we meant our words and keep them, does it matter?"

"What of Fabrials?" the Sibling asked "You did not promise to stop capturing spren"

"We will find a compromise." Navani said, picking her way out of the room with the crystal pillar "We will work together to find an acceptable path forward"

"Will it be like your compromise with Raboniel, where you tricked her?"

"That was the best compromise she and I could come to and we both knew it" Navani said "You and I can do better"

 

She didn't say she would just continue capturing spren. She pledged to work with the SIbling to find something better. 

 

Just now, Debarra said:

At the current state it seems either Navani will just never progress far (perhaps never even reaching the second ideal) or kills the Sibling.

I guess that is your opinion and I wish you luck with it, but personally I disagree. To each their own. 

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12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The danger has not passed. Odium and the fused are still a thing. They need the protections of the tower. Navani figured out the problem with the light. The sibling said that even if she bonded, she still couldn't create light, so it wouldn't accomplish anything. Navani did that. Without Navani, no new light, no protection.

The immediate danger of Moash with an honorblade has passed. The Sibling had decided that Rlain was the one he wanted to bond, but then extenuating circumstances forced him to bond Navani. Moash is gone, they can break the bond and bond with Rlain.

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14 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The immediate danger of Moash with an honorblade has passed. The Sibling had decided that Rlain was the one he wanted to bond, but then extenuating circumstances forced him to bond Navani. Moash is gone, they can break the bond and bond with Rlain.

Except Rlain is bonded with a corrupt spren and is in the Shattered Plains with the defected Heavenly Ones and the listeners that survived the Everstorm. I think Rlain would rather be there then back at the tower among only humans bonded to the Sibling. Does it matter what Rlain wants?

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2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Except Rlain is bonded with a corrupt spren and is in the Shattered Plains with the defected Heavenly Ones and the listeners that survived the Everstorm. I think Rlain would rather be there then back at the tower among only humans bonded to the Sibling. Does it matter what Rlain wants?

He stayed at the tower though, he said that his home was with the humans (and he wanted to make sure they didn't try anything that could significantly harm the humans like in the false desolation).

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7 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Except Rlain is bonded with a corrupt spren and is in the Shattered Plains with the defected Heavenly Ones and the listeners that survived the Everstorm. I think Rlain would rather be there then back at the tower among only humans bonded to the Sibling. Does it matter what Rlain wants?

Of course it matters what Rlain wants, but his situation is similar to the Sibling’s. The Sibling wanted to bond him, but couldn’t because of mutual survival. Now, Rlain has left because he had no reason to stay. What if him leaving causes the humans to lose, because he would have been a better Bondsmith than Navani. What if all humans and listeners die because he didn’t bond the Sibling, their MUTUAL SURVIVAL was eliminated. The Sibling didn’t get much of a choice for bonding Navani, why should Rlain, if that is what needs to happen?

Edit: He actually didn’t leave, he stayed at the Tower. 

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1 hour ago, Chinkoln said:

The immediate danger of Moash with an honorblade has passed. The Sibling had decided that Rlain was the one he wanted to bond, but then extenuating circumstances forced him to bond Navani. Moash is gone, they can break the bond and bond with Rlain.

Moash was not the immediate danger. The sibling dying from the corrruption that raboniel put into them was. And that would have continued regardless the fused. Which is why if the tower's defenses go down again, then again it is vulnerable to the same exact problem. It doesn't matter who the sibling bonds to, because the sibling couldn't make light to protect itself. Only Navani was able to do so. 

54 minutes ago, Debarra said:

The oaths don't revolve around their powers. Like none of Dalinar's oaths revolve around uniting the realms. It's just a thing they can do. None of the Radiants oaths revolve around their powers. Kaladin doesn't swear oaths based around changing objects gravity.

Isn't there whole theories and thoughts on this board about how Kaladin's ability to lead is connected to his powers? Gravitating people together, and pulling them to him. Adhering them into a group?

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Yes he did. That was literally his entire plotline in WoR. He was trying to unite Alethkar. Like you literally can't miss it, it's the entire point of his plotline for an entire book. 

And he said at the end of Words of Radiance he failed. Only two highprinces followed him. Then in oathbringer it was about uniting the coalition. Which again at the end he failed because it almost completely dissolved. If it worked the way you posit, I believe he would have killed the stormfather repeatedly. But each time he failed, he rose as a better person, to try again, and try to do better. Just like Navani. 

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Yes radiance is all about progress but like the spren only pick certain people. Kaladin was already acting like a Windrynner before Syl came to him. Shallan was already on the way of speaking truths before Pattern arrived. That's just how it works because like the sprens literal life is on the line. You need to at least show signs of embodying their ideals and even after being bonded Navani shows no signs of wanting to actually unite anyone.

Gaz? Lopen? Vathah? Skar? None of them were already acting like their respective orders. They grew as people and worked towards it. Lyn just showed up and asked to train to be a windrunner, and began to emulate their ideals. 

To me Navani has continually worked to bring scholars together in a common pursuit. But as I have come to the conclusion for myself that because of the nature of the bond, you can see any radiant order in anyone at any time, I do not feel there is an accurate way to say "person A did action B, which means they must become radiant C". So if you don't see her as making sense as a bondsmith, then that is totally your prerogative, and I respect that. I just personally disagree. 

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Also she does say it. It's literally said in the quote you gave.

So I am not going to re-post the quote and go back and forth over it. That never ends well. Personally if you have a person doing an action in the past, and another person saying to stop the action, I do not see how the very word "compromise" can result in the first person still taking the exact same action. Across the novel Navani continually asked the Sibling why it was bad, and sought to find a way to stop it from hurting anyone. Due to the circumstances, the Sibling only responded with "just stop". If you tell someone eating meat is bad, it does not help your cause nor grow understanding when every time they ask why, you just say "stop". That's why there is material on it, videos, and so on. To educate. Navani sought to be educated on the matter, to do better. To each time she falls, rise again and do better. Just like Dalinar. 

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Navani here does not exhibit the ideals of a Bondsmith at all and is perhaps even the opposite of what one should be. The bond itself and the relationship between the two is not good and seems highly abusive looking at it.

As I said above, I feel "exhibiting the ideals" is highly subjective, and you can place actions in any context and attribute someone to any order. I think that is the very nature of the magic system. Kaladin could have just as easily become a skybreaker, edgedancer, elsecaller, willshaper, stoneward, bondsmith, and etc in my estimation. I certainly respect people disagree with this belief, but that is why I do not choose to argue what constitutes Navani "exhibiting the ideals" of a bondsmith. Because I feel anyone could, and she has. 

50 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

Of course it matters what Rlain wants,

This might take me a moment to find, so I readily acknowledge I could be wrong, but did at any point Rlain get asked if he wanted to bond the Sibling?

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but his situation is similar to the Sibling’s. The Sibling wanted to bond him, but couldn’t because of mutual survival. Now, Rlain has left because he had no reason to stay. What if him leaving causes the humans to lose, because he would have been a better Bondsmith than Navani. What if all humans and listeners die because he didn’t bond the Sibling, their MUTUAL SURVIVAL was eliminated. The Sibling didn’t get much of a choice for bonding Navani, why should Rlain, if that is what needs to happen?

What if Dalinar turned back into the blackthorn, killed the stormfather, and became Odium's champion? Or what if he chose to after each time he fell, to rise again, and try to be better? Like Navani wants to.

 

 

edit: speaking of Rlain:

 

Rhythm of War page 1189

"I don't deserve any of this" she whispered to him "I was weak, Rlain"

"The start doing better" he told her, pulling back "That is the path of Radiance, Venli. 

 

still looking to see if Rlain was asked about bonding the sibling. Till I find it, I actually found this convo between Venli and Timbre. Mistakes can be wonderful:

 

Rhythm of War page 1096

"What if we got you a different host? A singer who cares, like Rlain."

Timbre pulsed

"What do you meant?" Venli demanded "You can't want me. I'm an accident. A mistake"

Another pulse

"Mistakes can't be wonderful, Timbre. That's what defines them as mistakes."

 

So far the closest I found is what is shown below. Rlain and Dabbid just being told to get to the crystal pillar where the Sibling is. Not why

 

Rhythm of War page 1084

"Bridge Four" Kaladin said "I don't want to leave you two alone, Dabbid, but we need to move now - and I want the queen to be contacted. Plus... the Sibling said something. About sending Rlain to them"

"They said it to me too" Dabbid said.

 

I will check more, but the preceding passages support this. They were going to use Rlain because he could reach Navani due to being parshendi. I don't think Rlain knew about bonding the sibling at all, but I will keep checking. So I don't think we know how Rlain feels on the subject. But my memory is hazy so I could very well be wrong. I will keep looking. 

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41 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Yes and? That has nothing to do with his oaths whatsoever. I'm discussing his oaths here. Again that's just a thing he can do, his oaths don't revolve around his powers.

I guess I am confused now. You asked what the powers have to do with the order, so I mentioned it. Did I misunderstand? (not being obtuse. genuinely asking)

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Strength before weakness

Journey before destination

He tried. That's the whole point of being a radiant. Also he succeeded at multiple points, he got some of the highprinces to unite and now all of them are united. He also got the monarchs to unite. The entire first ideal is about trying to do things, that's it's entire point. Dalinar never stopped trying to do those things so his bond with the Storm father wouldn't break. Navani doesn't even try is the issue and she makes it clear she doesn't intend to try.

Right he tried and failed. Then he bonded the stormfather who was convinced Dalinar would kill him. Dalinar tried more and failed. And continued to rise as a better person each time. Personally I believe Navani tried on multiple occasions, and kept going. She then bonded the Sibling, and I believe she will continue to try and fail and become a better person. Like I said, I do not feel it would serve the discussion to pour over every action Navani has taken, and try to prove whether or not it reflects a "bondsmith". I could take one scene of Kaladin's and say how it represents windrunner ideals, edgedancer ideals, skybreaker ideals, stonewards ideals, and so on and so forth. I really don't see a productive conclusion to that line of discussion. So I respect that is how you feel. I just disagree. 

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Correct none of them exhibited those traits when starting out.

That is why they never bonded Spren.

They became squires first. Only after they actually started emulating their ideals did they attract Spren. If anything it just shows my point about how the bonds begin with people who already are beginning to show the traits of the order.

I thought a lot of people were surprised that Gaz was a bonded radiant? Prior to his bond he did not exhibit squire abilities, so we do not know whether or not he was a squire first. Further you can be a squire of one order, and end up joining a completely different one. So you could espouse and show attributes of one order, and still attract a spren from a different order. 

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Yes that is what a Bondsmith would do and any reasonable person would think but Navani makes it clear here that isn't what she means. She isn't going to change her ways here, she's not promising to do that. It's the siblings responsibility to do that.

At the end of the day we just really really disagree on the interpretation on that scene and I don't see us reaching an accomidation here. I do not read that scene in the way you portray it at all. I guess we can RAFO to see if Navani does in fact continue to imprison spren, and kill the Sibling. I don't think she will, but guess we will find out in Book 5. 

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The Sibling does explain, multiple times. She tells Navani it hurts the Spren and isn't good for them. She does this everytime Navani asks. Also in real life stuff like that happens, vegetarians exist and so do religions which prohibit eating certain kinds of meat. People like that do exist, compromises can still be reached. They exist right now in the world. Navani just doesn't bother to try and compromise other than constantly questioning the Siblings view on things and not her own.

Could you provide the quotes for those scenes? I would be happy to pull them up, but I am still checking if Rlain knew about the possibility of bonding the Siblng or not. 

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Also we've been told before in the past that anyone can't become any order. That's not how the ideals work. That's why Brandon before has told us people would only be "okay" in certain orders, like how the Lord Ruler would only make an okay Skybreaker. The quiz also makes it clear the orders clash.

Could you provide those WoB? The ones I recall usually involve Brandon listing three or four orders roughly for a person. Like Spensa from Skyward for instance. If I recall correctly she would make a good dustbringer, edgedancer, and a third one. I will pull that WoB up because I think it is easy to find. One moment please. 

 

Phantine

Okay, let's start with standard Roshar horoscopes:

If Spensa were to join the Knights Radiant, what order would fit her best?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, she'd be a Dustbringer. With small arguments for Stoneward, Skybreaker, or Edgedancer.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018)

 

Questioner

What Order of Knights Radiant would you be?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't know. I've thought this before. Probably Bondsmith would be definitely my personality. But it depends. It depends on, if I were living in Roshar, what would my life be like, and things like that. A lot of people could be in multiple Orders, depending on the spren they meet, and where they go from there.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

 

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Looking in the text itself you can see how the orders clash, the Skybreakers and Winderunnrs have a pretty famous rivalry with each other and the oaths themselves contradict. Like when Kaladin was remembering Moash and helping him assassinate Elhokar, a pretty Edgedancer thing to do, his bond was breaking apart. Or when Dalinar started realising the truth of what he did, a pretty lightweaver thing to do, his bond started breaking apart. Or when Shallan started worrying that she could hurt people with her power, a variety of orders way to do things, she broke her oaths and killed the Spren.

Again, I don't think it would be productive to discuss this topic. I don't see it ending well. Kaladin by Syl's own words was acting like a skybreaker. Suffice it to say, I believe any action could be placed subjectively in any light, and that does not mean that person will have to end up in that order. The shear number of debates on what order people feel various characters should fall into I think is evidence enough nonetheless the other information we receive in the book. But again, I respect that you disagree and I wish you luck with your theory. 

 

 

edit: at this point I could keep going further and further back in the book, but I think it is pretty clear Rlain had no idea about potentially bonding the sibling. He thought they were going to wake up the radiants via Lift, and try to flee. That he was to get to the queen to get her out. He didn't know they intended to have him bond the Sibling. I am still open to being wrong in this case, but everything I have found points to Rlain not knowing. So I don't think we can say how Rlain would feel on the subject of bonding the Sibling. Further considering how possessive spren are about their radiants (Syl reacting to the gloryspren for instance), I doubt Rlain's corrupted truthwatcher spren and the Sibling would be willing to share. Rlain's corrupted truthwatcher spren is thrilled to have bonded Rlain, and I think it wouldn't be fair to that spren to take him away from that. Now I am going to see the level of information the Sibling provided Navani with regarding fabrials. 

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27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Yeah I was only ever discussing their oaths. 

Ah, then I guess we just disagree on that topic. I believe each surge could be related to the oath of the knight that employs them. It would take some time to list each one though. 

27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

He didn't fail though. That's the first ideal. He succeeded at times even. Under that logic every radiant that we have has failed massively.

Yes, they all have. That's my point. A radiant doesn't start having perfectly understood, and represented the ideals. It is through progressing through the bond that the person themselves grow. Kaladin back slid repeatedly and nearly killed Syl. Shallan as well. Dalinar still. As I was going through the quotes with the Sibling I came across this:

 

Rhythm of War page 824

"You have hurt me, Dalinar. This is the second time you have done so. You push against our bond, forcing me to do things that are not right."

"I push you to stretch," Dalinar said "That is always painful. Did you hear what Stormblessed told me?"

 

I feel the same stands for Navani. Challenging her own and the Siblings preconceptions, and growing together. I have found quotes I feel represent this, but as I said, I do not believe pouring over such would be productive as I believe that is purely subjective. I am not seeking to change your mind on how you feel about Navani as the Sibling's bondee. I respect your view. 

27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

No idea on the Gaz thing but considering how every other thing we have indicates he'd have become a squire first I think it's reasonable to presume he became a squire first. Yeah another Spren could bond you but like they'd only bond you if you were showing traits of that order as well.

I don't recall anything indicating that he has to become a squire first. If you would have to become a squire before bonding as a radiant, then Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar, Ym, etc etc etc could not have become a thing. 

27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

You can maybe be in one or two orders but not all of them. Even the wobs given show that as there are small arguements for which order they may be, not like definitive ones or strong claims to it.

So I added this WoB as I was going through the book, not sure if you saw it when you posted this. If you did, no problem, but just posting it again just in case. Brandon says a lot of people could be in multiple orders. That it just depends on what spren you end up meeting and where you go from there. 

 

Questioner

What Order of Knights Radiant would you be?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't know. I've thought this before. Probably Bondsmith would be definitely my personality. But it depends. It depends on, if I were living in Roshar, what would my life be like, and things like that. A lot of people could be in multiple Orders, depending on the spren they meet, and where they go from there.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 8, 2018)

 

27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

The Lord Ruler wob is here. 

Don't really see where that means the Lord Ruler couldn't potentially be appealing to multiple orders. 

27 minutes ago, Debarra said:

As for the others well not everyone has access to a physical book for one.

I am using a word search on my Kindle. I only asked if you had a reference because I was in the middle of pulling up references for another topic. The human mind can be faulty due to memory recall. Like a coppermind, each time we recall a memory, we color that memory with the feelings we have associated with it till it can practically change the entire memory. It is one of the reasons witness testimony is so unreliable. I am not saying this to mean you are unreliable, nor that I am calling your thoughts into question. Just why I like to work with a quote in front of me rather than going on recollection. 

Having said that, I have completed my search using spanreed and Sibling keywords to locate every instance of their conversations over fabrials and spren. I have book marked them. Going through them again and typing them up is time consuming however (about 61 of them). I would like to take a break for the night, and type them up tomorrow to discuss further. 

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3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Except Rlain is bonded with a corrupt spren and is in the Shattered Plains with the defected Heavenly Ones and the listeners that survived the Everstorm. I think Rlain would rather be there then back at the tower among only humans bonded to the Sibling. Does it matter what Rlain wants?

Rlain wants a spren, and one that wants him, if only we had an extra one of those sitting around....

And even with his other bond, we know for a fact that multiple bonds are possible.

@Pathfinder

The argument that Rlain can't help make towerlight is absurd, He can hear the pure tone of Honor, and the fusion only requires intent

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33 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Rlain wants a spren, and one that wants him, if only we had an extra one of those sitting around....

Actually he wants a spren that wants him for "something he has done". The Sibling wants him because he is not human. I have the quotes for that, but as I said regarding the 61 quotes regarding the info on the spren, can I have a moment between having to type them all up?

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And even with his other bond, we know for a fact that multiple bonds are possible.

Yes, but every quote saying it is possible, also says it is improbable because the radiant would have to maintain multiple oaths that can conflict, and you have to find multiple spren that are ok with it, when we have seen they classically are not. My point is that a person could potentially bond any order. After they bond, bonding another spren is incredibly difficult. 

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@Pathfinder

The argument that Rlain can't help make towerlight is absurd, He can hear the pure tone of Honor, and the fusion only requires intent

It is not absurd at all. The very quote where Navani and the Sibling discuss that it is pointless for the Sibling to bond someone as they cannot make light is exactly when they were discussing Rlain. If Rlain was so easy to do so, then they would have brought Rlain before the Sibling to begin with. Not prioritize figuring out how to create light. 

31 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Okay? That doesn't refute anything I actually said. No one has been arguing otherwise. The point is that Navani doesn't try or seems at all interested in actually being a Bondsmith. That was the point that spawned that whole discussion.

For myself the discussion was whether or not the Sibling should remain bonded to Navani, and whether the Sibling was coerced into the bond by Navani. Then it developed into saying she should have never been a bondsmith to begin with because she doesn't show the traits of a bondsmith. Which is why I said I believe anyone can show "traits" of any orders. It does not mean they have to be that order, nor does it mean it precludes them from potentially bonding some other order. 

At least that was my understanding of the discussion's progression. 

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I never said you have to be a squire first before becoming a radiant. I said it was safe to presume that's how Gaz became one as that seem to be how it works for people in his position, such as in the list you just provided earlier in this thread of everyone who went that route who was in his position.

But we did not see Gaz go through any process of squiredom. For all we know he bonded his own spren. For instance Elhokar. He did not exibit any evidence of being Shallan's squire, and people on this forum have railed and railed about him becoming a radiant. But he ended up bonding one before he was killed. 

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Also yes I saw that WoB but it doesn't say someone can be any order just possibly more than one. That's different than any order. 

Maybe you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say? Let me try it this way

if we met Kaladin and there was no syl in the picture. So we didn't see any windspren. All we have to work with is his actions. Then let us take what happened with him and his bridgemen:

 

1. Well he protected and leaded them, he is totally going to be a windrunner!

2. He rails against the injustice of Sadeas's camp. He wants to bring justice to Amaram for killing his men in cold blood. He has to be a skybreaker!

3. He brings together the bridgemen from various disparate backgrounds. He is uniting instead of dividing. We know who our next bondsmith is!

4. By caring for the bridgemen, Kaladin is remembering those who are forgotten, and listening to those who are ignored. Edgedancer here we come!

5. By training his men, and training himself, Kaladin is focused on bettering himself. He wants to reach his true potential so they can live. Elsecaller to teleport them away!

6. Kaladin has such painful truths to come to terms with regarding his past. Failing his father. Losing his brother. He will truly be a radiant lightweaver!

7. Kaladin has fought time and again to free slaves and bring liberty to the bridgemen. Hello there our amazing willshaper!

8. Kaladin has stood where others have fallen. He has persevered and championed the hopeless cause of the bridgemen. This stoneward will not fall!

9. Kaladin has seen the truth inside his fellow bridgemen. Teft the gruff but caring sergeant. Rock the jovial yet solemn cook. Our beloved Truthwatcher truly sees

10. Kaladin has worked to master his depression, and honed his skills with the spear. He will be a focused and dedicated Dustbringer!

 

Prior to seeing what spren he interacts with, every single one of those interpretations is valid. Going on personality alone, for myself, tells us nothing.

 

Now based on where Kaladin is, what spren are in the area, what happens in his life, he will run into spren that are more or less likely to bond with him. For instance you could think he is absolutely perfect to be a windrunner, but end up being chosen by the Circle, and a cultivation spren picks him. Now Kaladin is an edgedancer. That is my point, and one I believe is supported by the WoB. That is why I do not see the point in going over every interaction with Navani to try and decide "hmmmm, she said this, and that is very bondsmithy" or "Navani said that, and no bondsmith would ever say that!".

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That also for the third time now was not the point I was making with the Lord Ruler. As I said earlier in the thread; 

I guess where I was confused is if you are referencing where Brandon said you cannot become any order, that you were going to post the WoB that said that. Could you post that one?

(edit) just in case. Really not meaning to sound snarky or what have you. I genuinely got confused, and would like to see the other WoB if that is possible. Thank you!

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The point isn't that he could not be any order, it was that he would only be an 'okay' Skybreaker. Meaning one can not excel at a particular order. Meaning one can't be a candidate for every possible order.

Yeah, could you post that WoB? Because I do not recall seeing that anywhere or anything that indicated that in that manner. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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I think that the entire "Rlain Bondsmith" story line was a red herring that Brandon created with full knowledge that there was a moderately large population in the fandom that wanted it. It was actually quite transparent to me. There was never really a point in the book where I thought there was even the smallest chance of Rlain bonding the Sibling. Similarly, I was convinced ever since Oathbringer that Navani would be the one to bond the Sibling and fix Urithiru, given that the city is a giant fabrial and that is her entire shtick.

It is interesting to see fan theories shape the narrative of the story, albeit in a relatively minor way.

Additionally, I posit that any further red herrings that appear in the Cosmere henceforth be referred to as "Rlain Herrings". Thank you.

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20 hours ago, trav said:

unfortunately. throwing Rlain in the mix was obviously a red herring. same goes for Dabbid.
maybe I am interpreting the passages wrong and the Sibling was convinced by Navani in the end.

I still don't like it.
I never liked that Kholins and friends did everything. even marrying one (or two...) is enough, apparently.
 

Agreed. The story feels like its about one really special family.....and Kaladin as the family friend. No one else actually gets to do anything particularly important and when they do act it seems to be to save or inspire a member of the super family.

Still shocked that the squad sent to Lasting Integrity accomplished......nothing. Sigizil and the Windrunners accomplished......nothing. The other Radiants dont really seem to be worth much to the story,

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It was well done.

Yes.

Though now I must ask. The story has to stay plausible, doesn't it? I fail to see how this can be happen without a certain number of obvious things happening. I would go as far as calling that close to the definition of plausibility.

If you want to change things, you will go for those who already have political power, if you are pursuing a simple strategy. If you are a member of a different species, anything else cannot be expected.

Nah, I didnt even like the Vyre confrontation, and no thats not what the word plausible means.

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9 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Sibling said that Navani isn't worthy for two reasons:

  1. They don't like Navani capturing spren.
  2. They don't like humans.

But Navani is worthy. No one in the Tower understands city management, building infrastructure, and fabrials. She kept an entire nation running after its king decided to start going on worldhopping vacations after politics bored him. All these qualities are vital for Urithiru to function as a cultural, political, and economic heart of the Coalition.

Rlain would have been a great Bondsmith, but not a Sibling Bondsmith, especially considering the circumstances.

Navani has self worth.That self worth does not mean she get to impose her will to subvert someone's agency over legitimate concerns. The Sibling does not want to bond a human because of the risks to the Sibling's safety and because they don't trust humans. That's their choice, their preference, and that decision is valid even beyond Navani's needs or wants. It's not about management, because the Sibling's problem isn't one of competency, it's a moral and ethical one based around Navani's use of spren and a rational fear born out of previous trauma caused by humans. To me, it's like trying to compel a bisexual person to date a man after they suffered trauma with an ex, and would prefer to be with a woman.

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Rlain might have been a great Bondsmith for the Sibling.  He just needed to be taught (by Navani) to perfection create Honor’s tone, harmonize with the Sibling to create Towerlight, be taught how to use the Sibling’s many disparate and complex fabrial constructs.  I’m sure all of that could have been done easily within the context of the book...And, of, course, we all know that Rlain was happy to bond to any spren that wanted him.  Or maybe Rlain is happy with his bond to a spren that carefully studied him for a protracted period of time, and wants him for his ability to bridge minds, his willingness to see the truth of things and share it.  I think Rlain, bonded to a mistspren (though Awakened, by Sja-Anat), is perfect - I think that Singer Radiants make a certain amount of sense more closely aligned to Cultivation’s side of the Surges.

As for Navani, it is absolutely true that the Sibling deemed her unworthy, but she makes a case for herself to the Sibling.  Successfully.  There is mortal danger for both of them, true.  But she knows how to harmonize with the Sibling when it’s necessary.  She knows how to vent away the Voidlight in the Sibling’s ‘veins.’  She has a learned, experienced understanding of the ways in which the Sibling integrates with Urithiru.  And she does display attributes of a Bondsmith in this book.  She advocates for the sharing of research, of discovery among the human alliance.  She unites with a Fused leader in a common pursuit of knowledge, of discovery.  Raboniel definitely views her as a friend by the end of their time together.  When’s the last time a human and a Fused were friends?  How many thousands of years?  She does her best to protect the humans within Urithiru - leading them by surrendering when so many Alethi leaders might have fought to the last person.  She grows so much in this book. Her relationship with the Sibling is precarious.  We don’t know the extent to which the Sibling is fully recovered from the events that led them to sleep around the Recreance and the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram.  But there is so much foundation that was laid in this book for Navani to progressed in the way that she did.  And, for her, she needed to stand up for herself, for what she advocates for to the Sibling, in a way that she never stood up to Gavilar’s lack of faith in her.  She is worthy.

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3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Agreed. The story feels like its about one really special family.....

To a large extent it is. The Kholin family is special. How often do two brothers take over a country?

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

and Kaladin as the family friend. No one else actually gets to do anything particularly important and when they do act it seems to be to save or inspire a member of the super family.

  • Lift
  • Taravangian
  • Cultivation
  • Moash

 

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Still shocked that the squad sent to Lasting Integrity accomplished......nothing.

It got the group there and it drove away the Tukari. Shadesmar is a really hostile environment. You need to make your own water and nothing is edible without Soulcasters. Hence you need a large logistic troup containing native Soulcaster Radiants.

The mission itself was quite successful.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Sigizil and the Windrunners accomplished......nothing.

Of course they did. They fought off the Skybreakers and Heavenly Ones over the battlefield and did numerous scouting missions.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

The other Radiants dont really seem to be worth much to the story,

The people the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers healed were glad they were there. Large undertakings like a military campaign are team efforts and not everybody can have a flashy or even interesting job. Nevertheless they were vital. The only Radiants we missed were the Stonewards and Dustbringers. In the latter case for obvious reasons.

Now, a few things touching fundamental issues.

The way aracane powers are set up in the Cosmere it will be dominated by a very small number of actors or even single ones. Three Bondsmiths for a whole planet. Only one could enter the well and take up the power. Sixteen Shards for the whole Cosmere. Fabrials and related technologies may change that. But not here and now.

Secondly. we are talking about preindustrialized economies save for Scadrial. That meas that average people will be poor and uneducated. We have seen very little of Roshar's village life and what we have seen was through the eyes of a middle class boy. These people would not make particularly good Knights Radiant. See the troubles Wyndle had with Lift.

Thirdly, bonding for most Spren is utilitarian. Now, it may be unflattering to liken a Knight Radiant to a lichen, but ecologically speaking they are very similar. Technically we have a case of symbiosis. The Spren grants the physical partner the ability to use Stormlight in a highly advantageous manner, while the physical partner allows the Spren to live in a highly hostile environment for long, just like a lichen. (Bondsmiths are an exception)
The Spren also have a military and political goal. They want to fight Odium. Furthermore they are genuinely interested in the ethical goals of their oaths and some have a genuine interest in humans. Their ethical goals, however, are limited. Even more limited than Honor's. They are not interested in justice as such (in the law, yes, but not justice) nor are they interested in equality (not even in the most basic sense of everybody having human rights - Spren have no issue with slavery) and with the the exception of the Willshapers they are not interested in liberty.
Hence they will bond based on efficiency. And here we are back to ecology. Where does a bee send other bees? To a place of known resources and they will explore the vincinity of that place. Why?

  1. They are looking for people with certain qualities. Often people with these qualities will be in the same place. In fact Kaladin trained the people in his group to be better at the qualities the Spren seek.
  2. It is better and nicer for them to be nearer other Spren of theri kind. They have an interest in helping each other.
  3. The physical partners have an interest in finding better new symbionts. The system of squires facilitates that even more. You saw it best in the Skybreakers. They cooperated to set up training and test faciilities for new candidates.

There are ample reasons for the Spren to bond predominantly near Knights Radiant and their families and friends.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Nah, I didnt even like the Vyre confrontation, and no thats not what the word plausible means.

How could a story with too many improbable outcomes be plausible?

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5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

-snip-

To be clear, I've read the story. You should understand that telling me that the Kholins actually are special and that Radiants serving as medics, scouts, troops, and food suppliers are actually very worthy contributions to the *story* isn't actually going to change my stance.

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There are ample reasons for the Spren to bond predominantly near Knights Radiant and their families and friends.

Did anyone indicate there wasn't?

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How could a story with too many improbable outcomes be plausible?


How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? There, one irrelevant question in exchange for another. 

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