stormlore

Who Killed Honor?

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Odium killed Honor, but did he have help?

I was going over some death rattles, (getting all kinds of ideas) and had this thought: Did the Heralds kill Tanavast? or somehow knowingly allow Tanavast to be killed? Did they have Cultivation help, did her machinations go back this far, did her power take over her vessel, and she cultivates plots? We know she has sought to replace at least one shard vessel.

Chapter 1 Epigraph: "You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!"

Is this Tanavast, referring to the heralds, the heralds and cultivation, or maybe cultivation and odium?

Why would Cultivation want to kill Honor and let Odium splinter his shard? What motivation?

The Rhythm of War.  The force created by Odium and Honor, as long as the two existed as equal power, the war would continue.  Cultivation and the heralds would both have motivation to stop this.

Chapter 54: "The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me."

Was this Taln? Tortured on Braise, giving in, unable to take the torture, but Tanavast, being dead, unable to release him? If the herald could not be released, then perhaps the enemy could be locked away, and indeed it was, for a time.

Tell me what you guys think.

 

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For some reason I don't think Odium 'killed' Honor the way we think.

Perhaps the God of law broke a fundamental big one and Honor thinks Odium was the cause and Odium just took credit for it.

Just spitballing, hardly any thought to this.

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11 hours ago, stormlore said:
Chapter 1 Epigraph: "You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!"

I always read this as a mostly useless Death Rattle. I don't think it's actually a "vision", I think it is just the person figuring out what the Silent Gatherers are doing. 

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57 minutes ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

For some reason I don't think Odium 'killed' Honor the way we think.

Perhaps the God of law broke a fundamental big one and Honor thinks Odium was the cause and Odium just took credit for it.

Just spitballing, hardly any thought to this.

I'm sure it is more complicated that we suppose, and the more I think of it, the more I tend to like the idea that Cultivation was involved in some way.

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1 minute ago, stormlore said:

I'm sure it is more complicated that we suppose, and the more I think of it, the more I tend to like the idea that Cultivation was involved in some way.

Agreed, maybe a mercy killing because he was going insane and she just happened to form plans around that?

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Part of me thinks Cultivation didn't think Rayse and Tanavast didn't have the chops to help her defend Roshar (from what I dont know), so she had them done-in and Cultivated new vessels. It is even possible she plans to off herself as well and be replaced by Lift. 

Shards are the most free when they first get a new holder, so maybe she wants less-bound vessels. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

Agreed, maybe a mercy killing because he was going insane and she just happened to form plans around that?

Maybe not 'insane' like heralds, but perhaps more and more stiff and unyielding.  Like the storm, he couldn't be better anymore.

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Colonel Mustard, in the kitchen, with... the lead pipe?

 

According to the Stormfather, Honor was going crazy before his death:

Quote

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 1052). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

If a mad Bondsmith is scary, how much more so an out-of-control Shard? It's not completely clear if what caused his death was the reason for Honor going nuts (or if something had caused him to go mad first, e.g. Oathpact breaking) but it's not unreasonable that he might have been mercy killed (or just to save Roshar) without positing a malicious intent. Hypothetical timeline - Odium wounds Honor severely somehow due to Honor being vulnerable due to the violation of the Oathpact (might e.g. constitute Honor breaking his word), Honor starts to lose it (maybe during short periods of lucidity, he records the Stormfather visions), and Miss Scarlet Cultivation Splinters him before he can destroy Roshar.

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4 minutes ago, Seloun said:

Colonel Mustard, in the kitchen, with... the lead pipe?

 

According to the Stormfather, Honor was going crazy before his death:

If a mad Bondsmith is scary, how much more so an out-of-control Shard? It's not completely clear if what caused his death was the reason for Honor going nuts (or if something had caused him to go mad first, e.g. Oathpact breaking) but it's not unreasonable that he might have been mercy killed (or just to save Roshar) without positing a malicious intent. Hypothetical timeline - Odium wounds Honor severely somehow due to Honor being vulnerable due to the violation of the Oathpact (might e.g. constitute Honor breaking his word), Honor starts to lose it (maybe during short periods of lucidity, he records the Stormfather visions), and Miss Scarlet Cultivation Splinters him before he can destroy Roshar.

I forgot about that passage, very good point.  Well, look at the honor spren in Lasting Integrity, most of them have given in to paranoia and became paralyzed to act.

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An interesting thought. In Dalinar's conversation with Rayse in chapter 113. Odium specifically says

Spoiler

In regards to breaking the contract with Dalinar: "But that is not going to happen and I am not going to break my word. Beacuse if I did, it would create a hole in my soul - which would let Cultivation kill me."

So what does this mean about Honor's death: essentially he left himself wide open. At some point, either before he went mad and started ranting about the Tranquiline Halls (are they really Ashyn? could they be Yolen instead?) or during his madness, he broke. He broke his word, or something that went against himself, and thus created his own little hole in his soul.
And what was that? Depends on what caused the hole and I have two theories about what that could be:
 

If the hole caused the madness, then the hole was caused by the breaking of the Oathpact, or more accurately, the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact and putting it all on Taln.

If the madnes preceded the hole, then the hole was caused by the imprisoning of Bo-Ado-Mishram. The Sibling says something along those lines when talking to Navani (can't find the actual quote. I need better annotations). I believe it was an indication that the Sibling lost the pure tone of Honor when Bo-Ado was imprisoned. I could be wrong. At the very least, that moment would probably be around the moment when Honor died.
 

Either way we have a morose irony: was it the Heralds or the Radiants that exposed him and by doing so essentially became his killers?

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