Necessary Eagle

Does Odium have a surge?

47 posts in this topic

16 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

That's certainly possible. I wonder how Connection works with lifelight, under this theory. Worse? And does that make the stormfather's bondsmith more powerful than the nightwatcher's, since they all use Honor's surge? 

Could also be that Lifelight just behaves slightly differently in subtle ways with it. Lift's Surgebinding doesn't seem different in general, at least no one has commented on it, right? So maybe the Lifelight doesn't make her surge stronger in general, just affects it differently enough that she could use overcome, or circumvent, the protection.

Or maybe it has nothing to do with Lifelight, and more to do with the whole surge. Maybe the security system doesn't block all forms of surgebinding equally. Maybe the fact that Progression wants to "restore" something to its natural state just kind of goes past it - or at least that those sorts parts of it would be the last to go. Maybe they're more "natural" than something like reversing gravity or reshaping stone.

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We know that Lift exists partially in the Cognitive Realm too, so maybe that also allowed her to stay awake during the suppression. Also, Cultivation is known to make people grow and encourages it (seen when Dalinar talks to Cultivation). Progression's secondary aspect is growing plants which would link to Cultivation and the growth of all things. Her spren calls Cultivation 'Mother' and this shows that if Progression is Cultivation's surge, it explains why Lift can use Progression. Perhaps it can also be linked to the presence of Lift in Urithiru where the Sibling (Child of Honor and Cultivation) both reside. Maybe the influence of a heavily invested spren overrides the suppression? This could also be another reason for the Windrunner's becoming lucid before the other orders?

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All Surgebinding comes from Odium! Mwahahaha! 

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I think that Odium is limited in his ability to manipulate Adhesion. Like he could almost certainly grant it but it would be somehow limited. Mostly I am thinking that there has to be something to the Fused's rejection of the Surge because Kaladin could still use Adhesion.

Also Odium having difficulty with creating bonds makes sense to me because I think the non emotional aspect of the Shards intent is about breaking connections and being unrestricted. This manifests as hatred of restrictions and to a lesser extent uninhibited emotions which Odium refers to as Passion.

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On 12/10/2020 at 11:14 AM, StanLemon said:

This line of thinking would imply the existence of 6 more Surges. One for each Shard

Not at all.  There are 10 surges.  3 of those surges are Connected to each of the Shards that are invested in the Rosharan system.  Adhesion for Honor, Progression for Cultivation, and (maybe) Division for Odium.  

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If Odium has a specific Surge it comes with Voidbinding not Surgebinding.

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1 hour ago, Frustration said:

If Odium has a specific Surge it comes with Voidbinding not Surgebinding.

Which are still the same Rosharan Surges, as we see with the Fused and the symbols on the Voidbinding chart, though they might express themselves differently.

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1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Which are still the same Rosharan Surges, as we see with the Fused and the symbols on the Voidbinding chart, though they might express themselves differently.

We see them Surgebind, that's why the masked ones don't see the future, instead using illusions.

Renarin is so far the only person we've seen voidbind.

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I would guess that Odium’s surge has to do with Renarin’s future sight. There isn’t a temporal surge otherwise.

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7 hours ago, Frustration said:

We see them Surgebind, that's why the masked ones don't see the future, instead using illusions.

From the chapter A Loose Thread

"Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear.
The ball of light was bright blue. Part of Navani felt it should be red—to reveal the true nature of the spren that hid inside Renarin...

They had managed to recruit several standard Truthwatchers—and they could create illusions like Shallan. Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes.…"

As for the futuresight:

"Glys, who preferred to hide within Renarin, grew excited. He’d captured this vision as it came, so they could study it...

Around Renarin, the stained glass windows began to crumble. It took Stormlight and effort by Glys to re-create them—and he was plainly getting tired. Gradually, Renarin’s world became normal..."

It seems to be a joint effort between Renarin and Glys.

And it's possible that the futuresight itself is not Illumination, which seems to be supported by the banishing light, which might have been a combo of Progression and Illumination, the former to access the Spiritually perfect self and the latter for the light, as well as the lights with other esoteric effects that Renarin is said to be able to summon.

I've argued before futuresight can be seen as Illumination of Progression, a Resonance of sorts.

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17 minutes ago, Honorless said:

From the chapter A Loose Thread

"Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear.
The ball of light was bright blue. Part of Navani felt it should be red—to reveal the true nature of the spren that hid inside Renarin...

They had managed to recruit several standard Truthwatchers—and they could create illusions like Shallan. Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes.…"

As for the futuresight:

"Glys, who preferred to hide within Renarin, grew excited. He’d captured this vision as it came, so they could study it...

Around Renarin, the stained glass windows began to crumble. It took Stormlight and effort by Glys to re-create them—and he was plainly getting tired. Gradually, Renarin’s world became normal..."

It seems to be a joint effort between Renarin and Glys.

And it's possible that the futuresight itself is not Illumination, which seems to be supported by the banishing light, which might have been a combo of Progression and Illumination, the former to access the Spiritually perfect self and the latter for the light, as well as the lights with other esoteric effects that Renarin is said to be able to summon.

I've argued before futuresight can be seen as Illumination of Progression, a Resonance of sorts.

But the Regals  don't have two surges so if it's both how do the Nightforms have it?

In addition Voidbinding originates(most often) with the unmade.

I don't think every single fused is in constant contact with an unmade.

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On 12/20/2020 at 10:20 AM, Frustration said:

But the Regals  don't have two surges so if it's both how do the Nightforms have it?

In addition Voidbinding originates(most often) with the unmade.

I don't think every single fused is in constant contact with an unmade.

The same type of magic can be accessed in various ways, Atium and Moelach both access Fortune to do the same.

Voidbinding originating with the Unmade might not necessarily be true but simply part of the mythos of Roshar. Brandon had said that there's no one to one correlation between the Unmade and the Orders

Quote

XS-Terrain

Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

Eh... Kind of.

XS-Terrain

Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

I don't think the Fused are in constant contact with the Unmade either, like you said and has been theorised since Oathbringer, the Fused might not be Voidbinding but using Surgebinding via a different method than the Nahel Bond.

Edited by Honorless
grammar... yikes
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2 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The same type of magic can be accessed in various ways, Atium and Moelach do the both access Fortune to do the same.

Voidbinding originating with the Unmade part might not necessarily be true but simply part of the mythos of Roshar. Brandon had said that there's no one to one correlation between the Unmade and the Orders

I don't think the Fused are in constant contact with the Unmade either, like you said and has been theorised since Oathbringer, the Fused might not be Voidbinding but using Surgebinding via a different method than the Nahel Bond.

Fair enough though Yelig-nar gives all ten surges, I don't think it's unreasonable for other to give multiple...Voids? That sounds weird, whatever.

What I was trying to say is that if Odium has a specific surge/void I think it will appear exclusively in Voidbinding.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

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27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Fair enough though Yelig-nar gives all ten surges, I don't think it's unreasonable for other to give multiple...Voids? That sounds weird, whatever.

What I was trying to say is that if Odium has a specific surge/void I think it will appear exclusively in Voidbinding.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Yelig-Nar might forego Adhesion too, we certainly didn't see neither Aesudan nor Amaram use that Surge.

I'm trying to say that it's the same ten Surges in the Rosharan System, though they might look different when fuelled by different Shards. The Voidbinding chart's Surges are similar to the Surgebinding ones, though half flipped, and the Fused also use the Surges, though their expression of the Surges is different. So, the Voidbinding Surge that's the closest to Odium, would have an analogue in Surgebinding, if it's Void Division, then Division, or if it's Void Illumination then Illumination, and so on.

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It's heavily implied there are NO Fused who use Adhesion, only 9 Fused and 9 Unmade etc. I think Adhesion is unique to Honour and there is no equivalent for Cultivation (Lift uses Lifelight for Progression, hence it works in the Tower, and Stormlight for Abrasion, that's the theory in and out of Universe anyway) or Odium. Odium's number of power is 9, not 10.

 

However, if there WERE an Odium Specific Surge, the logic would be that it is one we don't know about. Adhesion can't be used except through Honor. So Odium's Surge, based on the same principles, can't be used except via Odium and thus isn't a Radiant Surge 

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3 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

It's heavily implied there are NO Fused who use Adhesion, only 9 Fused and 9 Unmade etc. I think Adhesion is unique to Honour and there is no equivalent for Cultivation (Lift uses Lifelight for Progression, hence it works in the Tower, and Stormlight for Abrasion, that's the theory in and out of Universe anyway) or Odium. Odium's number of power is 9, not 10.

 

However, if there WERE an Odium Specific Surge, the logic would be that it is one we don't know about. Adhesion can't be used except through Honor. So Odium's Surge, based on the same principles, can't be used except via Odium and thus isn't a Radiant Surge 

Not "heavily implied" but outright confirmed by the Fused that there are none among their numbers who have access to Adhesion.

They say Adhesion is only of Honor but well... Odium can use Connection. So some here are wondering if Odium just didn't want to hand his forces the Surge so that they couldn't get away from under him.

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i'm sure that adhesion is not just a surge of honor, because bondsmiths brought humans to roshar, and honor wasn't on ashyn.

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5 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

because bondsmiths brought humans to roshar, and honor wasn't on ashyn.

Do we know for sure that the bondsmith was Ashynite? Could a rosharan (singer, preumably) bondsmith have helped the Ashynite humans flee?

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5 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

i'm sure that adhesion is not just a surge of honor, because bondsmiths brought humans to roshar, and honor wasn't on ashyn.

Odium isn't on Roshar either.

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5 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Do we know for sure that the bondsmith was Ashynite? Could a rosharan (singer, preumably) bondsmith have helped the Ashynite humans flee?

Well from what we've been told so far it seems that the Ashynite Bondsmith being referred to was none other than the Herald Ishar via a Dawnshard which could Bind all things.

As for a Rosharan Singer Bondsmith helping the Ashynites flee, the Knights Radiant did not exist back then and the spren did not Bond Singers.

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The fact that envoyform exist make me doubt strongly Odium can't use adhesion.

Also I'd like to signal that Venli was able to use both the part of transportation that don't use light and cohesion, using voidlight, and I think cohesion being (or becoming) Odium's surge would help the "betrayal of the stone" part of the text in dawnchant at the end of Oathbringer make some sense.

Edited by mathiau
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It seems fallacious to mix the facts that Ishar (a) experimented with Surges on Ashyn; (b) figure out how to transport humanity to Roshar; (c) became a Bondsmith only after humanity accepted Honor. Those things are unrelated and occured over some timespan, which is to say that it wasnt BONDSMITHS but ISHAR, at the time "merely" a completely unhinged surgebinder, who transported humanity. Therefore there is nothing here to suggest that Adhesion was used by humans before the Bondsmith Honorblade was created by Honor for Ishar.

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