Does Odium have a surge?

[Necessary Eagle]

Adhesion is "the truest surge of Honor". Progression seems to be the equivalent for Cultivation, judging from Lift's experience. Is there a surge that is particularly close to Odium and why is it Division?

*side-eyes the Skybreakers and Dustbringers*

*side-eyes the name "Division*

*side-eyes the most likely candidate for the Surge of Honey I Blew Up The Planet*

Yeah, it's Division, isn't it?

[SirNoSell]

No

RoW pretty much made this open and shut.

If there is a 'unique' surge to a Shard, it's Adhesion for Honor.

Dustbringers are actually neutral.

Skybreakers just happen to be following a crazy millenia old man cos he's the most based Skybreaker available which isn't saying much.

[Necessary Eagle]

13 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

No

RoW pretty much made this open and shut.

If there is a 'unique' surge to a Shard, it's Adhesion for Honor.

There's something about Adhesion, yes. But the fact that Lift can get around the suppression to heal (but not to awesome) suggests that there's something about Progression, too. At minimum, I'm not the only one to come to that conclusion.

[SirNoSell]

Just now, Necessary Ookla said:

There's something about Adhesion, yes. But the fact that Lift can get around the suppression to heal (but not to awesome) suggests that there's something about Progression, too. At minimum, I'm not the only one to come to that conclusion.

Yes, she is a unique case because she's the only radiant that uses Lifelight to fuel her Surgebinding hence why she cna only invest when she eats food.

[Knight of Iron]

50 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Yes, she is a unique case because she's the only radiant that uses Lifelight to fuel her Surgebinding hence why she cna only invest when she eats food.

...but the point was she couldn’t use her Lifelight to fuel the Surge of Abrasion, only the Surge of Progression. Suggesting there is more to the Surge of Progression, similarly to how there is more to the Surge of Adhesion.

[SirNoSell]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Knight said:

...but the point was she couldn’t use her Lifelight to fuel the Surge of Abrasion, only the Surge of Progression. Suggesting there is more to the Surge of Progression, similarly to how there is more to the Surge of Adhesion.

Maybe or maybe she's just farther along her ideals like Kaladin.

Lift had sworn the third ideal not long after Kaladin, who knows how far she's progressed.

The surges themselves had nothing to do with Kaladin and Lift being conscious otherwise Teft who was also pretty far along wouldn't have been passed out for so long.

I'm finding it difficult to understand where you're trying to go with this point and how it relates to the OP.

[Knight of Iron]

10 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Maybe or maybe she's just farther along her ideals like Kaladin.

Lift had sworn the third ideal not long after Kaladin, who knows how far she's progressed.

The surges themselves had nothing to do with Kaladin and Lift being conscious otherwise Teft who was also pretty far along wouldn't have been passed out for so long.

I'm finding it difficult to understand where you're trying to go with this point and how it relates to the OP.

I’m not talking at all about the reason Lift or Kaladin are conscious; only that the Surges of Progression and Adhesion were the only Surges able to be used during the Great Suppression and it is likely because they are of Cultivation and Honor respectively.

With how you were stating things it seemed you were denying the possibility that the Surge of Progression was of Cultivation as OP suggests.

[Karger]

I would probably state that division is more a surge of Autonomy or maybe Ruin.  Odium seems must strongly associated with illumination then anything although I think their might also be a case for cohesion now that we know a little more about it.  You are not going to get a one to one correlation for obvious reasons.

[SirNoSell]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Knight said:

I’m not talking at all about the reason Lift or Kaladin are conscious; only that the Surges of Progression and Adhesion were the only Surges able to be used during the Great Suppression and it is likely because they are of Cultivation and Honor respectively.

Oh not at all.

I was disputing that their connection about the Dustbringers and Skybreakers sharing a surge just because they have dubious standards hardly means there's a connection to Odium.

This thread after all is arguing for Odium's surge not Cultivation, hence my confusion.

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Knight said:

With how you were stating things it seemed you were denying the possibility that the Surge of Progression was of Cultivation as OP suggests.

As for the Progression it's possible but I was focusing on the example rather than the idea itself and the explanation for me doesn't hold weight. But it's possible I guess.

[Frustration]

If Lift was awake for the same reasons Kaladin was the Edgedancers would be stiring the same way the Windrunners where, but they weren't.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[Knight of Iron]

30 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would probably state that division is more a surge of Autonomy or maybe Ruin.  Odium seems must strongly associated with illumination then anything although I think their might also be a case for cohesion now that we know a little more about it.  You are not going to get a one to one correlation for obvious reasons.

You know, now that I think about it Illumination seems a likely candidate for a potential Odium Surge, considering the corrupted/enlightened Truthwatcher spren giving a Voidish form of Illumination to Renarin.

But another question to consider is if there is a Cultivation Surge, then the Fused have accepted that Surge as a valid one. The reason they claim there are only nine Surges is because Adhesion "isn't a real Surge" because it's a thing of Honor.

And does this mean that their could be an order of the Voidbinders for Adhesion, and they refuse to accept it?

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Knight said:

You know, now that I think about it Illumination seems a likely candidate for a potential Odium Surge, considering the corrupted/enlightened Truthwatcher spren giving a Voidish form of Illumination to Renarin.

That could just be because mistspren are more interested in Sja-anat then most other types but Odium's future seeing affinity is well known.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Knight said:

But another question to consider is if there is a Cultivation Surge, then the Fused have accepted that Surge as a valid one. The reason they claim there are only nine Surges is because Adhesion "isn't a real Surge" because it's a thing of Honor.

I have posted a better wording of this somewhere else but in summery.  The fused don't voidbind they surgebind with void investiture.  You could fuel it with Odium's power(pretty sure this is what Kal does when he beheads the Pursuer) but for his own reasons Odium does not want this.  As such he created a BS explanation as to why adhesion is not real and made all of the fused cut off a finger and use a base nine counting system(that last part was sarcastic).

[danex]

I like the idea of Progression being cultivation’s surge, but the fact that the fused only call out Adhesion as being “false” and not Progression seems to disprove it a bit. Also, Fused can use progression, but none of them can use Adhesion. Seems to suggest that only Honor has his own surge.

As for Odium having one, I’m fairly sure it’s mentioned multiple times that the fused only have 9 surges. If Odium had one it would replace Adhesion and let them have 10.

Wait... unless Fused can’t use Progression, and then they do have an extra surge for Odium. So 10, minus Adhesion and Progression, 8, plus theoretical Odium surge, 9.

[SirNoSell]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Wait... unless Fused can’t use Progression, and then they do have an extra surge for Odium. So 10, minus Adhesion and Progression, 8, plus theoretical Odium surge, 9.

The fused that battled Jasnah used Progression.

I agree if Odium had his own surge it would replace Adhesion.

[kaego]

11 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Wait... unless Fused can’t use Progression, and then they do have an extra surge for Odium. So 10, minus Adhesion and Progression, 8, plus theoretical Odium surge, 9.

I always put the Fused that can grow carapace, then rip it off and use it as a knife under Progression. However, I really like this, so now I'm not too sure. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:35 PM, Ookla the Knight said:

You know, now that I think about it Illumination seems a likely candidate for a potential Odium Surge, considering the corrupted/enlightened Truthwatcher spren giving a Voidish form of Illumination to Renarin.

But another question to consider is if there is a Cultivation Surge, then the Fused have accepted that Surge as a valid one. The reason they claim there are only nine Surges is because Adhesion "isn't a real Surge" because it's a thing of Honor.

And does this mean that their could be an order of the Voidbinders for Adhesion, and they refuse to accept it?

I think they need a Bondsmith Spren, and that was BAM. But she only gained those abilities after the Last Desolation when Odium started truly becoming Invested in Roshar.

[Honorless]

On 12/9/2020 at 4:51 AM, Ookla The Frustrated said:

If Lift was awake for the same reasons Kaladin was the Edgedancers would be stiring the same way the Windrunners where, but they weren't.

If Lift having Lifelight is the only reason she was awake and use Surgebinding why was she only able to use the Surge of Progression and not Abrasion?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

If Lift having Lifelight is the only reason she was awake and use Surgebinding why was she only able to use the Surge of Progression and not Abrasion?

She doesn't just use Lifelight, she also can touch spren, and a few other things, I don't think Progression is the reason, even if I do agree it is closest to Cultivation.

[Honorless]

On 12/10/2020 at 10:07 PM, Ookla The Frustrated said:

She doesn't just use Lifelight, she also can touch spren, and a few other things, I don't think Progression is the reason, even if I do agree it is closest to Cultivation.

That is true, Lift being able to partially interact with the Cognitive might've played a part in her being awake after the Tower's protections were reversed. Her using Lifelight definitely played a part. I just think having the Surge of Progression also played a part.

 

 

As for Odium having a Surge. I don't think there's any Surge that's only of Odium or too close to Odium. Odium did apparently fuel Surges on Ashyn, and Bondsmith powers were hinted to have been the cause behind their destruction but Odium apparently doesn't have the ability to give Adhesion (otherwise he'd have given it to the Fused). The text seems to suggest that a Dawnshard was used on Ashyn, that might've been how that went down. All nine other Surges are used by the Fused. But it's certainly possible that some Surges might be closer to him. If that's the case, I think it would be among the ones we haven't seen or seen much of from the Fused: Division, Illumination and Transformation. All three can be pretty Odious: Division, divide rather than unite; Illumination: Odium's futuresight has been alluded to multiple times at this point; Transformation: Corrupting spren

Edited December 19, 2020 by Honorless

[Lupis]

On 08/12/2020 at 10:57 PM, Ookla the Knight said:

I’m not talking at all about the reason Lift or Kaladin are conscious; only that the Surges of Progression and Adhesion were the only Surges able to be used during the Great Suppression and it is likely because they are of Cultivation and Honor respectively.

With how you were stating things it seemed you were denying the possibility that the Surge of Progression was of Cultivation as OP suggests.

We don't know that they are the only surges able to be used, just that they were the only ones that were used, Perhaps if other radiants had been far enough along in their ideals to have remained awake they would all have been able to use one of their abilities as well. We just don't have enough information to say it was only progression and cohesion that could have been used and nothing else.

[StanLemon]

This line of thinking would imply the existence of 6 more Surges. One for each Shard

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:35 PM, Ookla the Knight said:

But another question to consider is if there is a Cultivation Surge, then the Fused have accepted that Surge as a valid one. The reason they claim there are only nine Surges is because Adhesion "isn't a real Surge" because it's a thing of Honor.

 

47 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Odium apparently doesn't have the ability to give Adhesion (otherwise he'd have given it to the Fused).

See, I disagree. I think he 100% has the power to grant Adhesion if he wanted. But he doesn't want to risk giving the Fused power over Connection, because they might figure out a way to use it to break their dependence on him, sever the Connection and find a new source of Investiture to subsist off. I think he's chullcremming them. He tells them "oh no, it's fake, Honor lied to you, yadayadayada" and they for some reason bought it.

Sibling also refers to it as Honor's Surge, iirc, so it's probably true it aligns more with Honor, though. But I doubt that prevents Odium from granting it. (I'd note that the Voidbinding chart has Adhesion and its orders in their normal places.)

[Dawnshard]

I think that the surge Adhesion belongs to Honor, and Progression to Cultivation. However Odium has been around long enough that he can now grant his own surge. He has a Rhythm now after all. If he did it would allow new Radiants that could access his surge and then combinations with that surge and open up more categories of Knights Radiant. Also Cultivation needed to work with Honor to create the Knights Radiant, and guess what, it appears she is now willing to work with the new Odium. Welcome to the Knights Radiant part 2. Another new set of Orders coming for the Back 5. They um, might fight about that. 

[Tazren]

On 10/12/2020 at 6:02 PM, Lupis said:

We don't know that they are the only surges able to be used, just that they were the only ones that were used, Perhaps if other radiants had been far enough along in their ideals to have remained awake they would all have been able to use one of their abilities as well. We just don't have enough information to say it was only progression and cohesion that could have been used and nothing else.

My completely unfounded theory while reading was that Lifelight just works exceptionally well with Progression, and that's what allowed Lift to "push through" the resistance. Felt like something that would make sense, at least.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 hours ago, Tazren said:

My completely unfounded theory while reading was that Lifelight just works exceptionally well with Progression, and that's what allowed Lift to "push through" the resistance. Felt like something that would make sense, at least.

That's certainly possible. I wonder how Connection works with lifelight, under this theory. Worse? And does that make the stormfather's bondsmith more powerful than the nightwatcher's, since they all use Honor's surge? 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Stormtide_Leviathan