Why I find the Venli flashbacks interesting

[Jenet]

First time reading the Venli flashbacks, I found them a little less interesting than the rest of the book. Maybe because I was hung up in the idea that these flashbacks were meant to give us more info on the singer culture, and as Sanderson has said, he had already revealed most of that. But listening to the audio book rereading the story, I find them actually quite interesting for a reason that is closer to my heart as well. Because I am first and foremost interested in why people act the way they do. And we get a lot of interesting information on both Eshonai and Venli's characters and how their Radiant status influences their characters and vice versa.

Eshonai is the typical willshaper, I think. Bold, curious, outgoing, loves freedom above all else, and thus sometimes she has difficulty concentrating on her duties at home. She is mosty forgiven for this, because of her qualities as an explorer, a general and a person. She is a likeable, outgoing character. 

Venli is jealous, selfish, resentful and quiet. She is afraid of change, and basically afraid of almost everything, but she at the same time yearns for the same type of fame and appreciation that Eshonai is surrounded by. She on one side hates what Eshonai does, and on the other side, she is jealous of what Eshonai's actions brings. Appreciation. 

So, Venli starts her own way towards the apprectiation she craves. And her way is not a very honorable one. Because she is a resentful, selfish, jealous and quiet person who does not wish to stand out. It's quite a conundrum, finding ways to receive fame and glory without standing out and risking anything.

Funny thing, Venli inherits a reacher spren from her outgoing sister. It seems to me that Venli never would have been among the first to attract a spren, given her not so admirable personality, but being in the right place at the right time, she just has to accept Timbre. And Timbre starts the job of changing Venli, light flash by light flash.

I find this story quite fascinating. I have always thought that resentful personalities are extremely difficult to change. They really like the opportunity to blame others for their shortcomings, and find it very hard to begin standing up and taking responsibility for their own future. But I have recently seen friends and students being able to change, and in the process becoming a lot more agreeable and reliable persons. It is very interesting to see that Venli seems to get the same arc. And that she also becomes a much more likeable woman.

I would not have seen this as clearly if it hadn't been for the flashback chapters, and the fact that we see the flashbacks from Venli's viewpoint as well makes the story much more interesting to me. Well played, Sanderson.

[yulyulk]

One of the themes of Stormlight really seems to be—it is never too late to become a better person. I love how you described flashback Venli's personality as cowardly, resentful, jealous and quiet because it's so true. She doesn't seem to have many redeeming qualities...yet when confronted with the results of her actions, and encouraged by Timbre, she does change for the better. And "better" doesn't just mean she turns into Eshonai 2.0, someone brave and outgoing etc. Venli is still Venli, afraid and hesitant, but she now believes in doing what is right.

It's somewhat like Dalinar's Oathbringer flashbacks, I think. You see Dalinar at his worst and his lowest points, and then you witness his transformation. Since Venli is a quieter character, her highs and lows are not as intense as Dalinar's, and I think that's why Dalinar's transformation is more appreciated among the fandom.

[nbozb]

Yes, I found the Venli flashbacks super interesting, and honestly, I love Venli. I think that she’s a great character and I’d love to see a lot more of her in the future, but tbh I don’t think we’re going to get much more of her.

[yulyulk]

2 hours ago, nbozb said:

Yes, I found the Venli flashbacks super interesting, and honestly, I love Venli. I think that she’s a great character and I’d love to see a lot more of her in the future, but tbh I don’t think we’re going to get much more of her.

Aw, really? You might be right, considering all the other plot points going on. But I would love to see Venli and the surviving listeners reconnect to their lost history with the help of Leshwi, and explore what a thriving community of singers looks like, away from the influence of Odium. I actually think that this could be a crucial part of establishing peace between the humans and singers on Roshar, because as of now, most singers don't have an option other than Odium. They could try to fight with the Knights Radiant, but as Rlain shows, it's hard to integrate into human society. 

[GameOfGroans]

I find it interesting how you list "quiet" among the unlikable qualities, though - even if there are no specific mentions or hints of that in the books, afaik.

[danex]

5 hours ago, yulyulk said:

One of the themes of Stormlight really seems to be—it is never too late to become a better person. I love how you described flashback Venli's personality as cowardly, resentful, jealous and quiet because it's so true. She doesn't seem to have many redeeming qualities...yet when confronted with the results of her actions, and encouraged by Timbre, she does change for the better. And "better" doesn't just mean she turns into Eshonai 2.0, someone brave and outgoing etc. Venli is still Venli, afraid and hesitant, but she now believes in doing what is right.

It's somewhat like Dalinar's Oathbringer flashbacks, I think. You see Dalinar at his worst and his lowest points, and then you witness his transformation. Since Venli is a quieter character, her highs and lows are not as intense as Dalinar's, and I think that's why Dalinar's transformation is more appreciated among the fandom.

Ugh, you make some really good observations here, that really does seem to be an ongoing theme of the series, and now I’m really scared that we’re actually gonna get a Moash redemption arc. And Brandon’s probably going to do it so skillfully that I end up agreeing with it.

[yulyulk]

8 hours ago, Dannex said:

now I’m really scared that we’re actually gonna get a Moash redemption arc. And Brandon’s probably going to do it so skillfully that I end up agreeing with it.

Ha! Well "redemption" doesn't have to mean "Moash suddenly turns into the most morally upright person ever and the people he hurt and betrayed all love him now"; that seems quite unlikely (and would be disappointing tbh). But I'm certain that Moash has to come out of his Odium-induced emotional numbness and really, truly come to grips with what he did, especially how he attempted to bait Kaladin into suicide. 

[nbozb]

17 hours ago, yulyulk said:

Aw, really? You might be right, considering all the other plot points going on. But I would love to see Venli and the surviving listeners reconnect to their lost history with the help of Leshwi, and explore what a thriving community of singers looks like, away from the influence of Odium. I actually think that this could be a crucial part of establishing peace between the humans and singers on Roshar, because as of now, most singers don't have an option other than Odium. They could try to fight with the Knights Radiant, but as Rlain shows, it's hard to integrate into human society. 

Yes, I’d love to see that! I mean, I love following the humans, but looking at a society that’s lost so much of its history and culture forging a new direction, looking at the culture clashes between listeners and the people who were parshmen, and more? That sounds amazing.

[Jenet]

On 21.12.2020 at 6:43 AM, GameOfGroans said:

I find it interesting how you list "quiet" among the unlikable qualities, though - even if there are no specific mentions or hints of that in the books, afaik.

It was not my intention to list "quiet" as an unlikeable quality. I was trying to describe her personality, and explain why I think the combination ended up as unlikeable. Venli really wants to be appreciated. She yearns to become famous. But she is a very timid and quiet person. So she tries to find other ways to get the appreciation she craves. It does not work very well for her. That is what I was trying to say. I find quiet people quite likeable most often. If they are not the resentful or manipulative kind of quiet.

[teknopathetic]

On 2020-12-20 at 6:58 PM, nbozb said:

Yes, I found the Venli flashbacks super interesting, and honestly, I love Venli. I think that she’s a great character and I’d love to see a lot more of her in the future, but tbh I don’t think we’re going to get much more of her.

I hope she eventually becomes the scholar she thought she was.

[RedBlue]

Venli and Eshonai’s dynamic was what hooked me about these flashbacks, even when they were kind of extraneous in terms of plot. Eshonai’s boldness and charisma while being an outsider to her own people, Venli’s quiet resentment and dangerous hunger for attention and respect. The painful clash of those personalities. It all struck a chord. 

And Venli’s arc during the current timeline contrasts with the usual Stormlight main characters. She’s no Eshonai, and she never can be her sister. She’s not a great person, or a good one. She wants to be, but she doesn’t want to put the work in. She’s only there because she survived by chance and more important people found her situation useful. But she did survive, and with some effort and some help, she can become a better version of herself. 

I hope we get to see Venli’s arc progress further. I don’t think it’s on the cards for her to become the brilliant scholar she pretended to be - scholarship and cleverness were never her strengths, and there’s so much else to be done to rebuild Listener society - and I doubt it will ever come easy for her. I really want to see where she ends up.

[GroundPetrel]

On 12/21/2020 at 8:39 AM, yulyulk said:

Ha! Well "redemption" doesn't have to mean "Moash suddenly turns into the most morally upright person ever and the people he hurt and betrayed all love him now"; that seems quite unlikely (and would be disappointing tbh). But I'm certain that Moash has to come out of his Odium-induced emotional numbness and really, truly come to grips with what he did, especially how he attempted to bait Kaladin into suicide. 

OTOH, there are also guys like Sadeas and Amaram.  Who apparently are irredeemable, because they don't want redemption.  

[AquaRegia]

I completely agree with the consensus here that Venli is a very interesting and realistic character.  She is often frustrating and even painful to read... but her motivations, struggles and thoughts are unquestionably authentic and believable.  

I'd like to have a conversation about this:

On 12/8/2020 at 0:58 AM, Jenet said:

... these flashbacks were meant to give us more info on the singer culture, and as Sanderson has said, he had already revealed most of that.

If Brandon DID say that, well, I hesitate to say "he's wrong", but I need to be shown how he's right.  For one thing, the term "singer culture" means about as much as the term "human culture".  There isn't just one; this is an entire race of people, and they've had different cultures in different places at different times. Here's what I feel like I personally know, after 4500+ pages, about "singer culture":

Recreance (2000 years ago) - present, most singers were "parshmen".  Trapped in slaveform, they had no culture of their own, only whatever human culture they were enslaved in.  The listeners eked out a bare survival in and around the shattered plains, spending most of those years trapped in dullform or workform. We know they passed down songs to record what they knew, and lived in a loose association of tribal "family" groups.  We had some views, through Eshonai and Venli, of the very end of this period, but we also know things were changing quite rapidly at the end.

Aharietiam (4500 ya) - Recreance, I know almost nothing.  For 2500 years, singers and humans coexisted somehow, with Radiants but no Desolations.  What did singer culture look like?  I sure don't feel like Brandon has "revealed most of it".

Pre-Aharietiam, I assume the singers were more or less united under the banner of Odium and led by the Fused during Desolations, and we see in RoW some glimpses of what the Fused consider "singer culture"... but that accounts for only a few years here and there out of many thousands.  What did singer life look like between Desolations?

I assert that there is an AWFUL LOT we don't know.

[RedBlue]

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

If Brandon DID say that, well, I hesitate to say "he's wrong", but I need to be shown how he's right.  For one thing, the term "singer culture" means about as much as the term "human culture".  There isn't just one; this is an entire race of people, and they've had different cultures in different places at different times. Here's what I feel like I personally know, after 4500+ pages, about "singer culture":

I think, given the context, this was not about singer culture generally, but about Listener culture specifically over the last few decades before the story’s current timeline. Venli and Eshonai don’t know any more than we do about ancient Singers or the events surrounding the Last Legion. 

WoR revealed that Listeners HAVE a culture beyond being warlike thugs as most Alethi perceive them. They have form changes and social norms surrounding them. They have internal politics. They have scholars trying to discover new forms. Everything they know is passed down through oral histories. They had their own compelling reasons for killing Gavilar. 

If all that stuff hadn’t been in previous books, presumably Venli and/or Eshonai’s flashbacks would have revolved around those reveals. But because Brandon decided (for good reasons, IMO) to humanise the Listeners sooner, RoW’s flashbacks became more like vignettes that fill in some more detail about Listener society and the sisters’ lives.

[GroundPetrel]

I'm really interested in pre-Recreance stuff personally.  What made humanity go from Odium-serving imperialist jerks, to mostly pro-Honor good guys?  (we kinda know how they went back to being imperialists, lol)

[AquaRegia]

On 3/19/2021 at 4:40 PM, GroundPetrel said:

I'm really interested in pre-Recreance stuff personally.  What made humanity go from Odium-serving imperialist jerks, to mostly pro-Honor good guys?  (we kinda know how they went back to being imperialists, lol)

 

Keep in mind that the Recreance was ~2000 years ago.  For ~2500 years before that, humans had full-time access to human Radiants, with no Odium or Fused on Roshar.  And for thousands of years before THAT, the Oathpact was in effect, with the Heralds themselves leading the forces of Honor during Desolations.  It was BEFORE ALL OF THAT (~8000 ya?  10,000?  We don't know) that humans and Odium came to Roshar.

There is just SO MUCH history here about which we know nothing except the most vague of outlines.

[Bejarden]

Kalak says it has been 7000 years In his letter

But ya were missing a bit of the history of Roshar 

And we won’t know anything until the back-five Herald flashbacks