HoidIsAdonalsium

Knights Radiant, Urithiru and Succession post RoW

14 posts in this topic

Considering the deal that Dalinar has made, there is a chance that Dalinar might fall. And Jasnah being..... well Jasnah, would probably be one of the first folks to call a meeting to decide who would succeed Dalinar in case he falls. Odds are the next book could start with this meeting since it's an important decision to be made, and getting Dalinars opinion would be appropriate as well.

Based on a bunch of Death Rattles it seems like Kaladin is the obvious candidate to succeed. Especially after the entire populace of Urithiru pretty much rallied behind Kaladin during his one-man physical resistance against the Fused

Besides Kaladin, who else do you people think would be well suited to lead the Radiants and Urithiru?

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While I would love Kaladin to take the place of Dalinar. I think the smartest choice would be Navani after all she is bonded to the spren of the tower itself and she is very smart. She has also been around rulers her whole life so she would probably know how to be a good one. While Kaladin can rise to be a strong leader like in the case of bridge four and inspiring the people of Urithiru. That doesn’t mean he actually has the skill to lead them. Also I don’t think they would want a mentally unstable person on the throne even if he is better after swearing the fourth oath.

Not that Kaladin didn’t have the skill to lead bridge four just that he might not have the skill to lead the whole tower. Also Kaladin himself would disagree with any attempt to put him in charge.

Edited by Theoryspren
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48 minutes ago, Theoryspren said:

While I would love Kaladin to take the place of Dalinar. I think the smartest choice would be Navani after all she is bonded to the spren of the tower itself and she is very smart. She has also been around rulers her whole life so she would probably know how to be a good one. While Kaladin can rise to be a strong leader like in the case of bridge four and inspiring the people of Urithiru. That doesn’t mean he actually has the skill to lead them. Also I don’t think they would want a mentally unstable person on the throne even if he is better after swearing the fourth oath.

Not that Kaladin didn’t have the skill to lead bridge four just that he might not have the skill to lead the whole tower. Also Kaladin himself would disagree with any attempt to put him in charge.

That's true.

To be fair,  I think the most logical option would be to assign leading Urithiru to Navani, and the KR to Kaladin. Kaladin always finds himself in leadership positions and this might end up being a situation where he is forced to lead. He has been forced into such situations throughout his life.

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Dalinar would probably go with the line of succession (modified), I mean, Navani's already the queen of Urithiru and Bonded to the tower spren. Dalinar has shown himself to be a monarchist too, and he probably won't invite (another) succession crisis by naming Kaladin as his heir.

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I think Kaladin is more suited/more valuable as a symbol than a leader, per se. Think Mockingjay. 

Quote

All these people believed in a version of him who had already died. Highmarshal Kaladin Stormblessed. The valiant soldier, leader of the Windrunners, stalwart and unwavering. Like Kal the innocent youth, Squadleader Kaladin the soldier in Amaram’s army, and Kaladin the slave … Highmarshal Stormblessed had passed. Kaladin had become someone new, someone who could not measure up to the legend.

But with all these people believing in him—falling in behind him, whispering with hope and anticipation—perhaps he could resurrect Stormblessed for one last battle.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

In that sense, I think Kaladin is actually more effective not being involved in the day-to-day running of things. Getting involved in politics and making compromises to get things done wouldn't work for him. Also, not being the underdog in a resistance doesn't seem to suit him very well; he's like how Taln is described - getting into hopeless fights and somehow winning - except that he never dies.

For the actual task of leading the Radiants, Jasnah seems to be the best choice. She's the best example of the enlightened philosopher-king ruler/benevolent dictator, and one who is self-aware enough to build in restrictions in her office for the future:

Quote

“Both of their governments go back centuries,” Jasnah said. “They’ve had generations to refine their processes. We’d do well to learn from them.” She eyed him, thoughtful. “The days of absolute power in one person’s hands will likely soon pass us by. I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m the last true Alethi monarch.”

“What would your father say, hearing you talk like that?”

“I suspect I could make him understand,” she said. “He was interested in his legacy. Building something that would span generations. His goals were laudable, but his methods … well, our kingdom has been difficult to maintain. A king ruling by the gauntlet and sword can easily see it slip away when he weakens. Compare this to the Azish system, where a bad Prime is unable to single-handedly ruin their government.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So I think the short-term answer is that Jasnah is the best choice, who would transition the Radiants into a more parlimentary system (Radiants being divided the way they are already fits this rather nicely), governed by multiple representatives. Presumably this wouldn't just be the Radiants, either, but something more akin to the Silver Kingdoms era.

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Navani is the obvious choice. She already leads Urithiru, and has shown to be very competent. And she's the other Bondsmith, not to mention Dalinar's wife. If she's still around then, it doesn't seem like it'd be much of a question.

Edited by Ookla the Uscritic
Accidentally posted before I was done.
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11 hours ago, Seloun said:

For the actual task of leading the Radiants, Jasnah seems to be the best choice. She's the best example of the enlightened philosopher-king ruler/benevolent dictator, and one who is self-aware enough to build in restrictions in her office for the future:

So I think the short-term answer is that Jasnah is the best choice, who would transition the Radiants into a more parlimentary system (Radiants being divided the way they are already fits this rather nicely), governed by multiple representatives. Presumably this wouldn't just be the Radiants, either, but something more akin to the Silver Kingdoms era.

Honestly, I think Jasnah would be fit to lead the Radiants as well. But conveniently enough, she is the current ruler of Alethkar. I don't think the other monarchs would be pleased to see her command the Radiants as well.

11 hours ago, Honorless said:

Dalinar would probably go with the line of succession (modified), I mean, Navani's already the queen of Urithiru and Bonded to the tower spren. Dalinar has shown himself to be a monarchist too, and he probably won't invite (another) succession crisis by naming Kaladin as his heir.

Hmm that is true. And Dalinar seems to be the kind of person who respects the opinions of others. He is the de facto leader of the KR, but only because he seized that position for himself. He needed to Unite Them. The Knights Radiant could potentially choose their own leader IF Dalinar falls. Dalinar could leave Urithiru for Navani and let the KR choose for themselves.

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7 hours ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

Honestly, I think Jasnah would be fit to lead the Radiants as well. But conveniently enough, she is the current ruler of Alethkar. I don't think the other monarchs would be pleased to see her command the Radiants as well.

Yes. And you really do not want a regency now. Jasnah has to stay queen.

7 hours ago, HoidIsAdonalsium said:

Hmm that is true. And Dalinar seems to be the kind of person who respects the opinions of others. He is the de facto leader of the KR, but only because he seized that position for himself. He needed to Unite Them. The Knights Radiant could potentially choose their own leader IF Dalinar falls. Dalinar could leave Urithiru for Navani and let the KR choose for themselves.

Who are the Knights Radiant? I am sorry if this sounds flippant, but it really is not. Do you let every Knight vote? That means that orders like the Bondsmiths and Elsecallers will be practically not represented. If you let squires vote, you'd better rename them from Knights Radiant to Windrunners and Associates. It seems to me that you'd have to establish something like a council of orders.

19 hours ago, Honorless said:

Dalinar would probably go with the line of succession (modified), I mean, Navani's already the queen of Urithiru and Bonded to the tower spren.

The next Bondsmith to the Stormfather is unlikely to be a member of House Kholin, for the simple reason of lack of candidates. Nor do I thik the Nightwatcher and The Sibling would just yield to the Stormfather.  I can see no real alternative to the title at least falling to the most senior Bondsmith.

19 hours ago, Honorless said:

Dalinar has shown himself to be a monarchist too, and he probably won't invite (another) succession crisis by naming Kaladin as his heir.

He is the King of Urithiru by virtue of being a Knight Radiant. You cannot bequeath that. You can have an order of succession or an elective monarchy, but not really a heredatory title.

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52 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He is the King of Urithiru by virtue of being a Knight Radiant. You cannot bequeath that. You can have an order of succession or an elective monarchy, but not really a heredatory title.

Hmm... Are you saying if he didn't become a Knight Radiant at the end of Words of Radiance, he wouldn't have been in his position? He became the leader of the coalition by virtue of his reputation and being the de facto leader of the Alethi.

Dalinar has been trying to be meritocratic from the time he was Blackthorn but he is still very much a believer of hierarchy. His argument would've been less born to rule, more has training in ruling and people listen to them but the end result would've been the same. Even if Navani wasn't a Knight Radiant, leadership would likely still have passed on to her, or Jasnah. 

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57 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... Are you saying if he didn't become a Knight Radiant at the end of Words of Radiance, he wouldn't have been in his position?

Perhaps temporarily. And it likely would not have ended well. Tanavast's plan requires a Bondsmith to make a binding offer for a duell of Champions. Hence, had Dalinar not worked out, the Stormfather would have sought another Bondsmith. That potential Bondsmith would then be required to be able to make promises. Any canddidate would have needed to seek the power to command the Rosharan military forces. Dalinar would not have yielded his forces easily, nor would have many people had the prestige needed to build the Coalition.

57 minutes ago, Honorless said:

He became the leader of the coalition by virtue of his reputation and being the de facto leader of the Alethi.

Yes. Hence probably Odium would have won, had Dalinar not acted like he acted.

57 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Dalinar has been trying to be meritocratic from the time he was Blackthorn but he is still very much a believer of hierarchy.

Those are not mutually exclusively categories.

57 minutes ago, Honorless said:

His argument would've been less born to rule, more has training in ruling and people listen to them but the end result would've been the same. Even if Navani wasn't a Knight Radiant, leadership would likely still have passed on to her, or Jasnah. 

Well, you could say that the Godspren appoint the King of Urithiru.

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9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, you could say that the Godspren appoint the King of Urithiru.

Hmm not really, historically Urithiru wasn't quite a kingdom, and had ten thrones from the ten Silver Kingdoms, it was the headquarters of the Knights Radiant. Now, the inhabitants of Urithiru are mostly Alethi. Rulership is a very human concept. Besides, the current Bondsmith of the Tower isn't Dalinar.

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I think the successor to Dalinar will be Kaladin. The reason for this is the death rattle : 

Quote

He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear! 

However, the most important thing here is not whether he rules urithiru or the coalition. But, if Dalinar falls, then there is a slightly more important matter of what will become of the Stormfather. Certain Events suggests that the bond between Dalinar and SF will be broken. 
So, whether Kaladin rules or Navani (as a queen and bondsmith to the sibling), Kaladin will still be his successor as the bondsmith to SF and possibly to Honor.
That might even explain why odium said that kaladin has become more dangerous for having left fighting. That this way he poses more of a threat. Because that helps in bonding SF.

Edited by Aon Tia
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Oh my, that's a good point with the Death Rattle. The tower and crown are often how the Kholin house glyphs are written... I had honestly stopped looking at the Death Rattles as too cryptic

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5 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hmm not really, historically Urithiru wasn't quite a kingdom, and had ten thrones from the ten Silver Kingdoms,

And it still has a council of monarchs. Presumably for the same reason. Somebody has to make decisions for mankind on Roshar during desolations. The presence of those thrones tells us nothing about how Urithiru or the Knights Radiants were governed.

It looks unlikely to me that the Knights Radiant would accept non Radiants interfering in there internal affairs. It would circumvent the oaths.

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

it was the headquarters of the Knights Radiant. Now, the inhabitants of Urithiru are mostly Alethi. Rulership is a very human concept. Besides, the current Bondsmith of the Tower isn't Dalinar.

We do agree that the 1b1ondsmiths were at least more influential than other orders, don't we? Somebody has to speak for the Knights Radiant as a whole.

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