CogitoErgoArclo

Zahel airs his dirty laundry. [discuss]

20 posts in this topic

Zahel and Kaladin (betwixt the sheets ;) ): 

It wasn’t quite the full magic system vs. magic system combat that we’re craving. But it was so cool to finally see, and such a beautiful promise of things to come. 
 

But any thoughts on how Zahel seemed quite comfortable Awakening without verbal commands? 

 

Quote

Ilkhan2016

Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across.

AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar.

/u/mistborn is that right?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive.

To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture.

Extesian

This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.

But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases...

You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it.

Celestial_Blu3

How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid.

General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019)

 

Edited by CogitoErgoArclo
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I missed (or forgot about) Azure using breaths in Shadesmar. I’m not doubting it happened, just how slow I can be sometimes.

The mock-battle between Zahel and Kaladin was very interesting. (By the way, what happened to Zahel during the tower occupation? I suppose he kept a low profile like the other ardents but he could have been a major help for the resistance, but I guess thats a question for another thread.) 

When I found out that Zahel is able to use stormlight in place of his breaths to keep himself going, I thought maybe he actually used it for his awakening powers as well. However, if this were the case, I.e. if Zahel breathed stormlight into the sheets instead of a breath, Kaladin would have seen the stormlight in the sheets. It’s mentioned that he didn’t see it, and this caused him to wonder how Zahel was moving the sheets. So I’m guessing Zahel just used his regular breaths to do that, although he might be able to use stormlight to replenish his breaths in the first place. (How, I don’t know.) As for the verbal command, could he not have done that quietly before Kaladin reached those particular sheets?

i.e. Zahel is steps ahead of Kal as the latter searches for him among the sheets. Zahel awakens a bunch of sheets but as part of their ‘programming’ commands them to lay still, and then trigger when Kaladin arrives. (I think you can use breaths in that way.) The thought occurred that maybe he even was aware Kaladin was searching for him and he awakened the sheets before Kal arrived. Then I remembered that his colourful scarves had been drained of colour by the end of the fight, so he must have awakened them during the duel period. But point is, Zahel was likely still a step or two ahead of Kaladin, and we don’t know for sure that he didn’t use verbal commands to awaken the sheets. We only know that Kaladin didn’t hear him.

If Zahel didn’t use a verbal command, then maybe he somehow used stormlight a different way. I.e he uses regular breaths to awaken the sheets (hence Kaladin detects no stormlight) but somehow uses stormlight to power his intent replacing the verbal command. How he would do this, I don’t know.

I was also very interested in their conversation after the battle, where Zahel speaks about invested individuals returning and the nature of cognitive shadows. I’d like to talk about that somewhere if there is a relevant thread already open for it. (I don’t want to drag this thread into that as it’s a different subject.) If I can’t find such a thread maybe I should start one.

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8 minutes ago, Mardragon said:

 (By the way, what happened to Zahel during the tower occupation? I suppose he kept a low profile like the other ardents but he could have been a major help for the resistance, but I guess thats a question for another thread.) should start one.

I thought that he was with Dalinar and Jasnah in Emul.

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I love your choice of words, :D

 

Uh what are the chances that Zahel can not only feed his Divine Breath with Stormlight but use it to reach the Heightenings? The Tenth would grant him Mental Command but he doesn't know how to convert Investiture (yet) so... He's probably just using theatrics and misdirections, giving Commands to the clothing while he's unseen, the clothing on his body was likely already Awakened from what we've seen of him in Warbreaker.

Edited by Honorless
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9 hours ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

But any thoughts on how Zahel seemed quite comfortable Awakening without verbal commands?

Brandon said on Reddit that he was using verbal commands, just under his breath so that Kal couldn't hear him.

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3 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

I thought that he was with Dalinar and Jasnah in Emul.

I assumed the same. As one of Dalinar's swordmaster ardents it would make the most sense for him to be where most of the soldiers are.

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6 hours ago, Mardragon said:

I was also very interested in their conversation after the battle, where Zahel speaks about invested individuals returning and the nature of cognitive shadows. I’d like to talk about that somewhere if there is a relevant thread already open for it. (I don’t want to drag this thread into that as it’s a different subject.) If I can’t find such a thread maybe I should start one.

Oh definitely the figurative “dirty laundry” I was referring to in the title. 
Just a casual explanation of how Returned are made, and what they actually are, no big deal. 
 

I especially loved the language he used when describing the “soul mold”. Struck me as a very elegant description. 

 

6 hours ago, Mardragon said:

When I found out that Zahel is able to use stormlight in place of his breaths to keep himself going, I thought maybe he actually used it for his awakening powers as well. However, if this were the case, I.e. if Zahel breathed stormlight into the sheets instead of a breath, Kaladin would have seen the stormlight in the sheets. It’s mentioned that he didn’t see it, and this caused him to wonder how Zahel was moving the sheets. So I’m guessing Zahel just used his regular breaths to do that, although he might be able to use stormlight to replenish his breaths in the first place. (How, I don’t know.) As for the verbal command, could he not have done that quietly before Kaladin reached those particular sheets?

 

2 hours ago, Necessary Ookla said:

Brandon said on Reddit that he was using verbal commands, just under his breath so that Kal couldn't hear him.

 
@Necessary Ookla do you have the link there? Not doubting you, just curious to follow that thread. 
 

Makes it slightly less exciting to me, but is definitely in keeping with Vasher’s m.o.

Still though, it was my understanding that Zahel only had his Divine breath on Roshar, was using stormlight to fuel it directly. So to me that suggests he’s figured out how to convert stormlight to breaths, which has huge implications! 

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Zahel's job is to train people so he probably stays with the army. 

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20 minutes ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Still though, it was my understanding that Zahel only had his Divine breath on Roshar, was using stormlight to fuel it directly. So to me that suggests he’s figured out how to convert stormlight to breaths, which has huge implications! 

Assuming he had his Divine Breath plus X amount of other Breaths when he traveled to Roshar, and he's been using stormlight to keep his Divine Breath filled this whole time, then all those regular Breaths he's holding would never get used up, and should still be ready to use any time.

I'd definitely want to keep some Breaths in reserve if I were him. While stormlight is plentiful on Roshar, there is still the Weeping, when they go a month without highstorms and all but the largest/most perfect of gemstones go dun. If you die without a dose of Investiture every eight days, that could be a tricky period to live through; best to keep a few Breaths in reserve to act as a buffer.

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Quote

@Necessary Ookla do you have the link there? Not doubting you, just curious to follow that thread. 

 

Edited by Necessary Ookla
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1 hour ago, Raven Wilder said:

Assuming he had his Divine Breath plus X amount of other Breaths when he traveled to Roshar, and he's been using stormlight to keep his Divine Breath filled this whole time, then all those regular Breaths he's holding would never get used up, and should still be ready to use any time.

I'd definitely want to keep some Breaths in reserve if I were him. While stormlight is plentiful on Roshar, there is still the Weeping, when they go a month without highstorms and all but the largest/most perfect of gemstones go dun. If you die without a dose of Investiture every eight days, that could be a tricky period to live through; best to keep a few Breaths in reserve to act as a buffer.


Definitely makes more sense. I was operating under the assumption that he only had the big one left, but I can’t find anything to support that now. I probably just got too excited for the confirmation that it’s possible to covert stormlight to breaths. 
 

But how would one convert stormlight into breaths? Would it be similar to making Warlight?

Edited by CogitoErgoArclo
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1 hour ago, CogitoErgoArclo said:

But how would one convert stormlight into breaths?

As far as we know, there is a way but he doesn't really know it. Brandon's said he nor hoid has figured out how to awaken with stormlight

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I think there's some comment that, just like Nightblood can feed off any source of Investiture, a Returned's Divine Breath only needs to consume some chunk of Investiture every eight days; it doesn't necessarily need to be Breath. So while only Breath can be used to Awaken, Nighblood and the Returned can be fed off any source of magic.

Though that still raises the question of how Vasher takes in stormlight to feed his Divine Breath without being a Surgebinder.

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4 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

Though that still raises the question of how Vasher takes in stormlight to feed his Divine Breath without being a Surgebinder

Could he have possibly gone to the nightwatcher?

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5 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

I think there's some comment that, just like Nightblood can feed off any source of Investiture, a Returned's Divine Breath only needs to consume some chunk of Investiture every eight days; it doesn't necessarily need to be Breath. So while only Breath can be used to Awaken, Nighblood and the Returned can be fed off any source of magic.

Though that still raises the question of how Vasher takes in stormlight to feed his Divine Breath without being a Surgebinder.

Well he has perfect pitch so my guess would be that he's using the rhythms to manipulate it. I wonder if the other shards have rhythms of their own, that might be a method of changing investiture from one form to another.

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16 hours ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Could he have possibly gone to the nightwatcher?

Had not thought of that. Definitely not impossible.
And interesting possibilities there, in that Endowment and Cultivation may be mixing investitures. Which fills me with much joy, even if I can’t think of a snappy name for their blended light. 
 

15 hours ago, Okishok said:

Well he has perfect pitch so my guess would be that he's using the rhythms to manipulate it. I wonder if the other shards have rhythms of their own, that might be a method of changing investiture from one form to another.

I think this is a bit more likely. The point about perfect pitch is particularly good.
The shards have to all have their own tones, right? And it’s only because of the Singers, that we understand them as such.  Since they’re evolved/grown to hear and interact with all 16 tones of Adonalsium. 
My understanding is the Tone is the Shard. The rhythms are the shards Intent interacting with all things physical and cognitive. Specifically; sapient and sentient beings, their intents, and emotions. Or maybe the Singers are literally hearing the Spiritual realm. 

Seems pretty likely Zahel (one of the foremost cosmere scholars) would be experimenting with the effects of tone on stormlight. He may even be able to perceive the Shards like the Singers do. I’m just hung up on Brandon’s use if the term “converting”. All of RoW was about “blending”, but changing one type of investiture to another strikes me as complicated and maybe pretty vital for a couple different planets.

 

Edited by CogitoErgoArclo
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13 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

I'd definitely want to keep some Breaths in reserve if I were him. While stormlight is plentiful on Roshar, there is still the Weeping, when they go a month without highstorms and all but the largest/most perfect of gemstones go dun. If you die without a dose of Investiture every eight days, that could be a tricky period to live through; best to keep a few Breaths in reserve to act as a buffer.

It looks like he has learned how to transfer Stormlight (if indeed he had to learn that, that is, it is not included in the package of being a Cognitive Shadow).So you just start out with a large number of spheres and start transfering half of half empty spheres' content to another half empty sphere. If all goes well, your reserves are never touched.

 

11 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

Though that still raises the question of how Vasher takes in stormlight to feed his Divine Breath without being a Surgebinder.

Nightblood can do it, so it must be possible by Awakening. However, it is possible that it is just part of what a Cognitive Shadow can do.

(Scadrial)

Spoiler

Kelsier just jumped into the pool.

 

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I feel this WOB could be very related to Navani's recent discoveries- combining, creating and manipulating raw types of Investiture and discussing the nature of different types of investiture as wavelengths and Rhythms and what not

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On 6.12.2020 at 11:45 PM, Raven Wilder said:

Though that still raises the question of how Vasher takes in stormlight to feed his Divine Breath without being a Surgebinder.

there is a quote from a WOB in this thread. Nalthis magic feeds on any Investiture. I suppose he is able to suck it in like he would from previously awakened objects.
my question rather is if he can store it like he could Breath.

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