Valigus

The 5th windrunner ideal and moash

81 posts in this topic

On 07/12/2020 at 11:28 PM, Rushu42 said:

I don't have a ton of evidence for this, but a nice idea I had was "I will allow myself to be protected".

This is my theory for Windrunners’ 5th Ideal - accepting protection.

I think this addresses Kaladin’s biggest remaining hang-up. He’s been ready to heroically sacrifice himself since WoK. He’s been helping other people learn to protect themselves since WoK. He’s been comfortable with his judgement about when to kill and when not to kill since the end of WoR. He made the decision to take better care of himself emotionally in RoW.

I doubt that the 5th Ideal would swerve into pacifism territory because, ultimately, the Windrunners are soldiers. Fighting is what they’re for. 

What remains for Kaladin to do? Become okay with accepting help from others. 

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Well this seems to be addressed in OB when Dalinar saves the Shadesmar group from the Fused.

I am not sure but Kaladin doesn’t seem to be to perturbed by this unless I’m wrong

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I see alot of people saying something along the lines of "i will do no harm" "i will not kill to protect etc"

Those to me can't be true, because wouldn't those statements make a 5th ideal radiant try stop the lower ideal level radiants from doing harm or killing ?

So it needs to be something which doesn't interfere with the lower ideal radiants.

So seems likely will be along the lines of "i accept i must protect myself before/above others"

 

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That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish

I know these are a dime a dozen but I’ll repeat mine “I will kill those I love to protect.”

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So I did like the idea that the last two oaths would be about leadership. But the protection theme seems to be going strong. I do think,  "I will protect myself so that I may continue to protect others" would be a great 5th ideal. It would bring Kaladin's arc to a good conclusion. He seems to be on this path now. It could also be something like, "I protect by continuing to lead." OR Life is more than protecting other 

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I feel like (because Brandon is so good at foreshadowing) the oath is going to be something like "I accept that sometimes I have to kill to protect others". I mean, it just seems right. I'm probably completely wrong, though.

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8 minutes ago, Random Bystander said:

I feel like (because Brandon is so good at foreshadowing) the oath is going to be something like "I accept that sometimes I have to kill to protect others". I mean, it just seems right. I'm probably completely wrong, though.

He already kills to protect others. All the time. In   one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill.

He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains

And to save Teft he kills a singer.

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9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He already kills to protect others. All the time. In   one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill.

He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains

And to save Teft he kills a singer.

Yeah, I know. And that's why I said I was probably completely wrong.

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3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish

Not neccesarily look at it in the long run, if the protector is kept alive they can save more people.

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9 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish

I know these are a dime a dozen but I’ll repeat mine “I will kill those I love to protect.”

I don't see how that is even remotely selfish, 

1. Doesn't just apply in a combat sense, can apply to the radiants mental state. As we see with Kaladin, hes ability to protect people is severly compromised by his mental state, when/if he learns to protect himself he will be more effective protecting others. And protecting himself begun with the 4th ideal, so seems a natural progression.

Windrunners are driven to protect at there own expense, and especially Kaladin, makes perfect sense for the 5th ideal to be about protecting themselves, imo

2. As @Frustration said, in a combat sense, the longer the radiant stays alive the more people he/she can protect and save people.

 

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11 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

So it needs to be something which doesn't interfere with the lower ideal radiants.

Yes

11 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

So seems likely will be along the lines of "i accept i must protect myself before/above others"

That is arguably included in the 4th ideal.

 

8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He already kills to protect others. All the time. In   one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill.

Yes, though he kind of broke down over that in the palace.

8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains

And to save Teft he kills a singer.

The Windrunner ideals already include that. He does not swear to protect everybody or not to kill. You swears to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Killing in selfdefense or even retaliation is perfectly allowed, maybe even demanded. But it does not end there. In war you may have to kill even those who cannot protect themselves. Suppose there is a factory in which the enemy has slaves building weapons. Do you bomb it?

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That would be protecting,

All the innocent that the bombs will kill. Every soldier in war is fighting to protect the ones they left out home

I expect the Windrunners would use a different method than Skybreakers would but they would preemptively attack a facility I believe 

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes

That is arguably included in the 4th ideal.

 

I think the process was started with the 4th ideal, Kaladin even says something to the effect of "hes better but not ready to re-enter combat yet, i think the 5th ideal will build on the 4th ideal, which is why i think the natural progression from there isn "i will protect myself, before/above others"

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Here was my thought process for the fifth ideal. The first two dealt with actively doing something ("I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" and "I will protect even those I hate"), and then the next dealt with accepting something ("I will accept that there are those who I cannot protect"). I feel that the first Windrunner oath (not including life before death, etc) and this one are somehow opposites, to a degree, so I think that the fifth ideal will continue this: an ideal about accepting that runs somewhat contrary to protecting those you hate. I believe that the fifth ideal will be "I will accept that there are those who I should not protect."

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I gonna start by saying that I didn't read the entire thread, but I do agree that an oath along the lines of "I will kill to protect" makes sense, especially given that if I remember correctly this was a question Kaladin pondered when his father talked about how there are two types of people, those who kill and those who protect (or something along those lines), and Kaladin asks what if you kill to protect. It just feels like it would be a complete circle. I did though skim some of the rest of this thread, and some of the other theorized 5th oaths look equally supportable. 

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I just thought of an addition 

I believe the 5th ideal will come very very easily to kaladin, the 4th was very hard for him but I think the 5th will not be.

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Well from a narrative perspective that makes a lot of sense

But in-world it seems to be that 5th oath is very rare ( Nale is the only 5th oath skybreaker) and we see from Feverstone Keep that 4th oath is not 

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12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

( Nale is the only 5th oath skybreaker)

Old days skybreakers were quite different from current day skybreakers so it's likely there were far more 5th oath skybreakers back in the day.

Quote

“Ten orders,” Jasnah said. “All ended in death.”

“All but one,” Ivory agreed. “They lived in death instead.”

Quote

and we see from Feverstone Keep that 4th oath is not 

Is not what?

Edited by mathiau
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1 minute ago, mathiau said:

Is not what?

Uncommon 4th ideal Radiants were not that uncommon

sorry must have gotten cut out.

 

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Old days skybreakers were quite different from current day skybreakers so it's likely there were far more 5th oath skybreakers back in the day.

Why would it make a difference. We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can become 5th oath ( Nale himself) 

So I don’t see why that would make a difference 

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2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Why would it make a difference. We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can become 5th oath ( Nale himself) 

So I don’t see why that would make a difference 

We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can stay 5th oath, Nale and the other Herald changed a lot, for example Skybreakers are supposed to be Confident which Nale isn't anymore

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31 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can stay 5th oath, Nale and the other Herald changed a lot, for example Skybreakers are supposed to be Confident which Nale isn't anymore

I'd say that Nale (either intentionally or unintentionally) is discouraging the traits needed, honestly. Szeth's highspren tells him he will need to leave behind the crutch of the Third and determine what's right on his own, but I get the feeling Nale would very strongly be against this.

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12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'd say that Nale (either intentionally or unintentionally) is discouraging the traits needed, honestly. Szeth's highspren tells him he will need to leave behind the crutch of the Third and determine what's right on his own, but I get the feeling Nale would very strongly be against this.

Yes. Honestly I think at some point Nale will either break his oaths or be kicked out of the skybreakers by his spren

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I am of two minds here.  

 

Part of me thinks that the Windrunner Ideals are a progress towards becoming a leader, and each additional ideal works towards that.  Leaders often have to make difficult decisions, and that's what Kaladin has been struggling with for his entire character arc.  As leader he wants to protect *everyone* and takes it personally any time somebody he protects dies, but that just isn't possible or realistic. At some point you have to make a choice about who you will protect and/or lead.  I think the fifth ideal will be something about prioritizing himself so that he can effectively lead. 

 

On the other hand, I do feel that, Brandon Sanderson being the absolute master of foreshadowing, that all of the four Windrunners Ideals were hidden in the Roshone/Rillir scene where Lirin had to make difficult decisions.  So far, we can see all of Kaladin's ideals there.

 

2nd Ideal: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.  Roshone & Rillir were unable to protect themselves from the whitespine. 

3rd Ideal:  I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right.  Lirin hated Roshoe, yet still worked to save his life. 

4th Ideal:  I will accept that sometimes there are those I cannot protect.  Lirin had to do triage on Rillir and allow him to die, knowing he couldn't save Rillir, and focused on Roshone instead. 

5th Ideal: ???  Again, I think it comes down to being able to prioritize who one can protect.  Lirin decided to prioritize Roshone over Rillir, despite knowing what the inevitable fallout would be. 

 

And being an effective leader is all about being able to prioritize things and making difficult decisions.  I think that's where Kaladin's Fifth Ideal is heading. 

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5 hours ago, Josh L. said:

5th Ideal: ???  Again, I think it comes down to being able to prioritize who one can protect.  Lirin decided to prioritize Roshone over Rillir, despite knowing what the inevitable fallout would be. 

This to me points in the direction of cost to one's self.  5th Ideal being " I will protect no matter what the cost"

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7 hours ago, hskeeter said:

This to me points in the direction of cost to one's self.  5th Ideal being " I will protect no matter what the cost"

Isn't that like.... the exact opposite of what Kaladin just dealt with and had to work past?

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