RedBlue Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 On 07/12/2020 at 11:28 PM, Rushu42 said: I don't have a ton of evidence for this, but a nice idea I had was "I will allow myself to be protected". This is my theory for Windrunners’ 5th Ideal - accepting protection. I think this addresses Kaladin’s biggest remaining hang-up. He’s been ready to heroically sacrifice himself since WoK. He’s been helping other people learn to protect themselves since WoK. He’s been comfortable with his judgement about when to kill and when not to kill since the end of WoR. He made the decision to take better care of himself emotionally in RoW. I doubt that the 5th Ideal would swerve into pacifism territory because, ultimately, the Windrunners are soldiers. Fighting is what they’re for. What remains for Kaladin to do? Become okay with accepting help from others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 Well this seems to be addressed in OB when Dalinar saves the Shadesmar group from the Fused. I am not sure but Kaladin doesn’t seem to be to perturbed by this unless I’m wrong 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Ben Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 I see alot of people saying something along the lines of "i will do no harm" "i will not kill to protect etc" Those to me can't be true, because wouldn't those statements make a 5th ideal radiant try stop the lower ideal level radiants from doing harm or killing ? So it needs to be something which doesn't interfere with the lower ideal radiants. So seems likely will be along the lines of "i accept i must protect myself before/above others" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 16, 2021 Report Share Posted March 16, 2021 That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish I know these are a dime a dozen but I’ll repeat mine “I will kill those I love to protect.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Silver Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 So I did like the idea that the last two oaths would be about leadership. But the protection theme seems to be going strong. I do think, "I will protect myself so that I may continue to protect others" would be a great 5th ideal. It would bring Kaladin's arc to a good conclusion. He seems to be on this path now. It could also be something like, "I protect by continuing to lead." OR Life is more than protecting other 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Bystander Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 I feel like (because Brandon is so good at foreshadowing) the oath is going to be something like "I accept that sometimes I have to kill to protect others". I mean, it just seems right. I'm probably completely wrong, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, Random Bystander said: I feel like (because Brandon is so good at foreshadowing) the oath is going to be something like "I accept that sometimes I have to kill to protect others". I mean, it just seems right. I'm probably completely wrong, though. He already kills to protect others. All the time. In one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill. He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains And to save Teft he kills a singer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Bystander Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 9 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: He already kills to protect others. All the time. In one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill. He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains And to save Teft he kills a singer. Yeah, I know. And that's why I said I was probably completely wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frustration Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish Not neccesarily look at it in the long run, if the protector is kept alive they can save more people. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Ben Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 9 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: That seems to violate the entire order as it is completely selfish I know these are a dime a dozen but I’ll repeat mine “I will kill those I love to protect.” I don't see how that is even remotely selfish, 1. Doesn't just apply in a combat sense, can apply to the radiants mental state. As we see with Kaladin, hes ability to protect people is severly compromised by his mental state, when/if he learns to protect himself he will be more effective protecting others. And protecting himself begun with the 4th ideal, so seems a natural progression. Windrunners are driven to protect at there own expense, and especially Kaladin, makes perfect sense for the 5th ideal to be about protecting themselves, imo 2. As @Frustration said, in a combat sense, the longer the radiant stays alive the more people he/she can protect and save people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 11 hours ago, Quick Ben said: So it needs to be something which doesn't interfere with the lower ideal radiants. Yes 11 hours ago, Quick Ben said: So seems likely will be along the lines of "i accept i must protect myself before/above others" That is arguably included in the 4th ideal. 8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: He already kills to protect others. All the time. In one book he has a flash back scene with tukks his squadleader where he realizes he can kill. Yes, though he kind of broke down over that in the palace. 8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said: He is also constantly killing men in Amaram army and he kills Parshendi on the shattered plains And to save Teft he kills a singer. The Windrunner ideals already include that. He does not swear to protect everybody or not to kill. You swears to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Killing in selfdefense or even retaliation is perfectly allowed, maybe even demanded. But it does not end there. In war you may have to kill even those who cannot protect themselves. Suppose there is a factory in which the enemy has slaves building weapons. Do you bomb it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 That would be protecting, All the innocent that the bombs will kill. Every soldier in war is fighting to protect the ones they left out home I expect the Windrunners would use a different method than Skybreakers would but they would preemptively attack a facility I believe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Ben Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: Yes That is arguably included in the 4th ideal. I think the process was started with the 4th ideal, Kaladin even says something to the effect of "hes better but not ready to re-enter combat yet, i think the 5th ideal will build on the 4th ideal, which is why i think the natural progression from there isn "i will protect myself, before/above others" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter a username Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) Here was my thought process for the fifth ideal. The first two dealt with actively doing something ("I will protect those who cannot protect themselves" and "I will protect even those I hate"), and then the next dealt with accepting something ("I will accept that there are those who I cannot protect"). I feel that the second Windrunner oath and this one are somehow opposites, to a degree, so I think that the fifth ideal will continue this: an ideal about accepting that runs somewhat contrary to protecting those you hate. I believe that the fifth ideal will be "I will accept that there are those who I should not protect." Edited July 10, 2022 by Enter a username 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishar Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 I gonna start by saying that I didn't read the entire thread, but I do agree that an oath along the lines of "I will kill to protect" makes sense, especially given that if I remember correctly this was a question Kaladin pondered when his father talked about how there are two types of people, those who kill and those who protect (or something along those lines), and Kaladin asks what if you kill to protect. It just feels like it would be a complete circle. I did though skim some of the rest of this thread, and some of the other theorized 5th oaths look equally supportable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valigus Posted March 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 I just thought of an addition I believe the 5th ideal will come very very easily to kaladin, the 4th was very hard for him but I think the 5th will not be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Well from a narrative perspective that makes a lot of sense But in-world it seems to be that 5th oath is very rare ( Nale is the only 5th oath skybreaker) and we see from Feverstone Keep that 4th oath is not 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: ( Nale is the only 5th oath skybreaker) Old days skybreakers were quite different from current day skybreakers so it's likely there were far more 5th oath skybreakers back in the day. Quote “Ten orders,” Jasnah said. “All ended in death.” “All but one,” Ivory agreed. “They lived in death instead.” Quote and we see from Feverstone Keep that 4th oath is not Is not what? Edited March 23, 2021 by mathiau 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bejarden Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 minute ago, mathiau said: Is not what? Uncommon 4th ideal Radiants were not that uncommon sorry must have gotten cut out. 2 minutes ago, mathiau said: Old days skybreakers were quite different from current day skybreakers so it's likely there were far more 5th oath skybreakers back in the day. Why would it make a difference. We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can become 5th oath ( Nale himself) So I don’t see why that would make a difference 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said: Why would it make a difference. We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can become 5th oath ( Nale himself) So I don’t see why that would make a difference We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can stay 5th oath, Nale and the other Herald changed a lot, for example Skybreakers are supposed to be Confident which Nale isn't anymore 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 31 minutes ago, mathiau said: We know Skybreakers with Nales moral code can stay 5th oath, Nale and the other Herald changed a lot, for example Skybreakers are supposed to be Confident which Nale isn't anymore I'd say that Nale (either intentionally or unintentionally) is discouraging the traits needed, honestly. Szeth's highspren tells him he will need to leave behind the crutch of the Third and determine what's right on his own, but I get the feeling Nale would very strongly be against this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: I'd say that Nale (either intentionally or unintentionally) is discouraging the traits needed, honestly. Szeth's highspren tells him he will need to leave behind the crutch of the Third and determine what's right on his own, but I get the feeling Nale would very strongly be against this. Yes. Honestly I think at some point Nale will either break his oaths or be kicked out of the skybreakers by his spren 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh L. Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 I am of two minds here. Part of me thinks that the Windrunner Ideals are a progress towards becoming a leader, and each additional ideal works towards that. Leaders often have to make difficult decisions, and that's what Kaladin has been struggling with for his entire character arc. As leader he wants to protect *everyone* and takes it personally any time somebody he protects dies, but that just isn't possible or realistic. At some point you have to make a choice about who you will protect and/or lead. I think the fifth ideal will be something about prioritizing himself so that he can effectively lead. On the other hand, I do feel that, Brandon Sanderson being the absolute master of foreshadowing, that all of the four Windrunners Ideals were hidden in the Roshone/Rillir scene where Lirin had to make difficult decisions. So far, we can see all of Kaladin's ideals there. 2nd Ideal: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. Roshone & Rillir were unable to protect themselves from the whitespine. 3rd Ideal: I will protect even those I hate, as long as it is right. Lirin hated Roshoe, yet still worked to save his life. 4th Ideal: I will accept that sometimes there are those I cannot protect. Lirin had to do triage on Rillir and allow him to die, knowing he couldn't save Rillir, and focused on Roshone instead. 5th Ideal: ??? Again, I think it comes down to being able to prioritize who one can protect. Lirin decided to prioritize Roshone over Rillir, despite knowing what the inevitable fallout would be. And being an effective leader is all about being able to prioritize things and making difficult decisions. I think that's where Kaladin's Fifth Ideal is heading. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hskeeter Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 5 hours ago, Josh L. said: 5th Ideal: ??? Again, I think it comes down to being able to prioritize who one can protect. Lirin decided to prioritize Roshone over Rillir, despite knowing what the inevitable fallout would be. This to me points in the direction of cost to one's self. 5th Ideal being " I will protect no matter what the cost" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted March 27, 2021 Report Share Posted March 27, 2021 7 hours ago, hskeeter said: This to me points in the direction of cost to one's self. 5th Ideal being " I will protect no matter what the cost" Isn't that like.... the exact opposite of what Kaladin just dealt with and had to work past? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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