The 5th windrunner ideal and moash

[+Harrycrapper]

31 minutes ago, Jasqueen said:

So are the oaths different to each person even when they are in the same radiant order?

Yes, however with the Lightweavers being a huge exception. There's a general theme/format to each oath, but they can be different in subtle ways depending on the person. Lightweavers are obviously tailored to the specific person and their Truths. 

[GriffinMaze]

"Not everyone deserves to be protected"

[Domo4448]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:28 PM, Ookla the Uscritic said:

I don't have a ton of evidence for this, but a nice idea I had was "I will allow myself to be protected".

I think it'll be somthing similar to this

 

like "I will protect myself so i may protect others"

On 12/7/2020 at 1:17 PM, Leuthie said:

The only 5th Ideal we know it the Skybreakers.

"I am the law"

This final Ideal completes a linear ladder for the Radiants that focus on law.

I don't think the 5th Ideal will be some ideal of leadership. It's been about protection so far and there's no reason, aside from a mention in a Way of Kings graphic that leadership is a secondary focus for Windrunners. I think the 5th Ideal will complete the ladder that Kaladin is already climbing.

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination" - This is the standard first ideal for all orders

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." - This ideal is a jumping off point, defining the order in general and making sure the Radiant is prepared to handle the powers in the right way. There are probably few permutations to this ideal; every Windrunner says pretty much the same thing here. 

"I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right." - This ideal we've seen at least 3 versions of. Teft made an Oath to protect himself, whom he hated. The Lopen took an Oath to protect others from himself, basically. This Third Ideal deals with a problem personal to the Windrunner that directly keeps them from protecting specific individuals.

"I accept that there will be those I cannot protect." - This is a limiter. A safety valve that relieves the pressure on the Windrunner created by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths. This will probably be vastly different for everyone but will probably amount to fixing a flaw with how the Windrunner deals with failure or with being overwhelmed by the Order's requirements. Personally, I think The Lopen's 4th Ideal will be his most difficult, since after the 3rd, he's pretty much perfect! Later: "I guess Lopen is not perfect." THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. "Storm me! STOP DOING THAT!"

So what is Kaladin (and The Lopen) missing at this point? What Ideal can be held that will make them the perfect protectors?

• A willingness to sacrifice - This makes sense, but it places an Ideal in place that encourages lessening the number of protectors going forward. As a perfect protector, whatever you're sacrificing yourself must be huge to justify removing your protection from time going forward. Also, Kaladin has lived this Ideal the entire time, almost lamenting that he hasn't been able to sacrifice himself.
• "Put on your mask first before you put masks on others" - In order to optimally protect, you must be optimal, physically and mentally. This is my vote for the most likely 5th Ideal. It works both in world, and in narrative as a vehicle for Kaladin's improvement, and will result in the best protectors that spren and surges can provide.
• Borrowing from the next post: "I will seek to protect only those who can be protected." - While I think this is a pretty simple extension of the 4th Ideal, it is different enough that it could warrant its own Oath. Since the Oath system is a system meant to limit who can use what levels of powers, granting the greatest powers that Honorspren can offer should require selectivity as to who they're used on or for.
• Proactive protection #1: "The best defense is a solid offence" - This is probably a little to militant to create better protectors, but is more in line with what the Skybreakers become with the 5th Ideal. "I am the Law" puts the Radiant above the very precepts spent defending in the first 4 Ideals. There may be a similar swing with the Windrunners. This may also be a result of the death of Tanavast, the loss of Connection via the capturing of BAM, and the degeneration of the Heralds reflected in the Nahel Bond Oaths.
• Proactive protection #2: "I will establish protection before the need arises" - This seems less like an Ideal and more like implementing good strategy. Probably not.

 

 

I really think that going along with the story idea from ROW that kaladin has to step back, better himself  and keep himself healthy is more than just accepting he can't protect everyone, and that his 5th ideal will be about protecting himself over others. or to protect others, he must protect himself .

[tipbruley]

I think the 5th ideal is the opposite actually. I think it is "I will not cause harm/kill to protect others". I personally believe that Lirin exemplifies the tenants of the wind runners perfectly.  There has to be a reason so few radiant can swear the 5th tenant. They always have killed to protect, so it wouldn't be hard for most to move past that.

We also see that Kaladin and Syl can protect others by putting her shardplate on the people in the square so Kaladin would not need to kill Singers to protect his people.

Kaladin has already been leaning towards this because he has befriended the enemy and realized that in war good people are killed.

[Master Silver]

On 12/15/2020 at 2:50 PM, Domo4448 said:

I think it'll be somthing similar to this

 

like "I will protect myself so i may protect others"

 

I really think that going along with the story idea from ROW that kaladin has to step back, better himself  and keep himself healthy is more than just accepting he can't protect everyone, and that his 5th ideal will be about protecting himself over others. or to protect others, he must protect himself .

That last part about Kaladin's 5th ideal being about protecting himself for the greater good or not throwing his life away protecting. We know Syl's last Knight went to a battle that he shouldn't have because he was too old, perhaps he was only on the fourth ideal and had he been able to swear the fifth ideal he wouldn't have died. I still think swearing the fifth ideal helps with long gevity in some way (others have sorta convinced me that immortality/becoming a cognitive shadow is unlikely upon swearing the fifth ideal).

[KC Hammer]

On 12/15/2020 at 2:07 PM, tipbruley said:

I think the 5th ideal is the opposite actually. I think it is "I will not cause harm/kill to protect others". I personally believe that Lirin exemplifies the tenants of the wind runners perfectly.  There has to be a reason so few radiant can swear the 5th tenant. They always have killed to protect, so it wouldn't be hard for most to move past that.

We also see that Kaladin and Syl can protect others by putting her shardplate on the people in the square so Kaladin would not need to kill Singers to protect his people.

Kaladin has already been leaning towards this because he has befriended the enemy and realized that in war good people are killed.

 I think in addition to this there is some similarity to the Skybreaker oath, where earlier they identify a thing to follow as the law, then they transcend that to become the law. Its almost reversing the earlier oath. Finding a better way to follow the ideal. I'm not sure if I think this is right, but i think its a possibility. 

[Leuthie]

Some of Kaladin's problems stem from the fact that his need to protect others has led him to perform acts that go against his nature. He's not a naturally violent person. He doesn't relish killing people. He enjoys the fight in much the same way that Adolin enjoys dueling. The competition and the dance.

Kaladin even agrees with Lirin when Lirin admonishes him for violence and murder. Kaladin simply can't see a way around such things.

When Kaladin can see a way around it. When protecting others doesn't require stabbing people in the neck and leaving them bleeding on the floor of his family's home, Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal. It just makes too much sense for the story and too much sense for a Radiant order who's primary purpose is protecting others. To get full access to the order's powers, you have to do everything you can to avoid harming others.

This doesn't make them pure pacifists, but Kaladin could have gotten Teft out of his room without killing. He just didn't.

"Protect others even if you hate them."
"Let go of those you cannot protect"
and what would a surgeon's primary oath be?
"I will do no harm"

Too much lines up narratively for the 5th Ideal not to follow where Lirin is leading Kaladin.
 

[jamesbondsmith]

I genuinely thought either the 'save yourself to save others later' or 'making a choice to protect some at the expense of others' options that are being floated for the 5th Ideal would be the 4th. As someone pointed out, 'I will teach people to protect themselves' encompasses both the protection and leading attributes. 

[NameIess]

In my opinion, the fifth ideal is going to be the ideal where the Windrunner decides how they can protect. Some people have been saying that it is about not killing people to protect, but that doesn't make sense. Windrunner's traditionally have different ideals. Some were pacifists, but they were the exception, not the rule. Kaladin is struggling with killing to protect, but not all the Windrunners would.

[Leuthie]

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

In my opinion, the fifth ideal is going to be the ideal where the Windrunner decides how they can protect. Some people have been saying that it is about not killing people to protect, but that doesn't make sense. Windrunner's traditionally have different ideals. Some were pacifists, but they were the exception, not the rule. Kaladin is struggling with killing to protect, but not all the Windrunners would.

And very few Radiants of any order made it to the 5th Ideal. Windrunners that never avoid harming others stay at the 4th Ideal. Windrunners that never let go of their failures stay on the 3rd. Skybreakers who can't convince their spren that they've become the law never reach the 5th Ideal.

The 5th Ideal shouldn't be something everyone can or even wants to reach. If the primary purpose of Windrunners is to protect, why only protect those who are being attacked? If you can protect everyone in a fight (do no harm even to those doing the attacking), wouldn't this make you a better protector? If Kaladin found a way to get Teft out of his family's rooms without killing the Singer (which he doesn't actually see as enemies BTW, only pawns in Odium's fight), wouldn't everyone have been better off?

And I don't see a "seek to do no harm" oath as being one that makes a Windrunner a complete pacifist. If killing is required because the opponent requires it, you would be breaking your oath more by not protecting your charge than you would by killing the one that refuses to not be killed. Fighting and incapacitation without killing wouldn't break Oaths (injuries can be healed, after all). The 5th Ideal Windrunner would be able to protect without leaving a trail of death behind them. To me, this fits the intent of the order perfectly and seems to be a great final barrier to whatever it locked behind the 5th Ideal. You can use the entirety of the Windrunner abilities only if you swear and Oath that you will always seek to do no harm with them.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

And very few Radiants of any order made it to the 5th Ideal. Windrunners that never avoid harming others stay at the 4th Ideal. Windrunners that never let go of their failures stay on the 3rd. Skybreakers who can't convince their spren that they've become the law never reach the 5th Ideal.

We don't actually know this. We know that the Skybreakers didn't have any Radiants of the fifth ideal, during a time where there was no pressure to do so. We know that the ideals are difficult, but we have yet to see anyone fail to say them.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The 5th Ideal shouldn't be something everyone can or even wants to reach. If the primary purpose of Windrunners is to protect, why only protect those who are being attacked? If you can protect everyone in a fight (do no harm even to those doing the attacking), wouldn't this make you a better protector? If Kaladin found a way to get Teft out of his family's rooms without killing the Singer (which he doesn't actually see as enemies BTW, only pawns in Odium's fight), wouldn't everyone have been better off?

Windrunners do not only protect those who are being attacked. They protect those who cannot protect themselves. Kaladin does protect by killing, but he's in a war. He is justified in killing to protect, at least in my opinion, as long as he doesn't take it too far (killing civilians, surrendering enemies, etc.). This leads me to my biggest problem with your fifth oath.

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

And I don't see a "seek to do no harm" oath as being one that makes a Windrunner a complete pacifist. If killing is required because the opponent requires it, you would be breaking your oath more by not protecting your charge than you would by killing the one that refuses to not be killed. Fighting and incapacitation without killing wouldn't break Oaths (injuries can be healed, after all). The 5th Ideal Windrunner would be able to protect without leaving a trail of death behind them. To me, this fits the intent of the order perfectly and seems to be a great final barrier to whatever it locked behind the 5th Ideal. You can use the entirety of the Windrunner abilities only if you swear and Oath that you will always seek to do no harm with them.

This is based off of one ideology. Yes, each of the orders have a specific theme, but they also have exceptions to that rule. For example, Brandon said that a Skybreaker could swear to something like the Pirate Code. Their quest could be to plunder the royal Thaylen reserve, and their fifth ideal could be where they decide that they can write their own pirate code. With your proposed final Windrunner ideal, however, only Windrunners who believe that they should not protect through killing unless there is no other option would be able to swear the final ideal. The order that competes for the title of best soldiers would be filled with Batman's. Windrunners would refuse to kill Fused unless they had to, as the Fused would kill another Parshman to come back to life. The Windrunners would be more strict and exlusive than the Skybreakers.

[Leuthie]

Let me start by saying you could be right and restating your arguments multiple times in multiple ways doesn't make you more right. Yes, it could be that the 5th Ideal isn't what I think it's going to be. It could be an open ended Oath that puts the Windrunner into a single line of protection, like you stated. I'd be all for that.

In that case, I think Kalandin's Oath will be to protect without killing. But I could be wrong. We could all be wrong. I believe I've stated some arguments as to how my thoughts fit the character and the narrative up to this point. You have stated arguments why you think I'm wrong and why it wouldn't make sense to have pacifist protectors. These latter arguments amount to it being too difficult. I don't believe "too difficult" is a good argument against a 5th Ideal, but you could be right. Any of us could.

And in which world is a Radiant order full of Batmans a bad thing?

[jamesbondsmith]

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

And in which world is a Radiant order full of Batmans a bad thing?

Arguably, 'I will not kill to protect' is what has lead to squillions of people in the DC universe being in need of rescuing from the Joker or any of Batman's other enemies. If Kaladin had killed Moash when he first attacked Elhokar in WOR, then Elhokar, Teft, Phendorana and the unnamed Radiant he stabbed in the face would still be alive, not to mention the people he indirectly harmed through allying with Odium.

I think it was Dalinar talking about Amaram when it was pointed out that imprisoning Shardbearers is pretty much impossible if you haven't forced them to break the bond to their Blade.

[Maximus]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:28 PM, Rushu42 said:

I don't have a ton of evidence for this, but a nice idea I had was "I will allow myself to be protected".

 

This. I actually thought it was going to be the fourth oath. Something along the lines of self care.

Windrunners tend to be givers, and one thing that real world givers have in common is that they tend to neglect themselves, in my experience.

[Requiem17]

I've been anticipating this thread all book and I love that I can finally jump in and comment!

Everyone's ideas are awesome. I agree that it's probably something simple, three or four words.

1. I can see a general Windrunner Fifth Oath being "I will protect... Myself" where myself is interchangeable. 

2. Kaladin and Teft have called themselves the watchers on the rim a few times. I could see another version being "I am the shield" or something similar.

3. I think Kaladin breaks the mold though. I think he does something insane like "I am the Wind". 

> He talks about an affinity for the wind his whole life

> Fleet started his race in the West, nearly fell in the Azish mountain range like Kaladin in RoW, and ultimately dies in Shinovar, where Kaladin goes Book 5. He then rises as part of the storm / the wind.

> The idea of Kaladin Stormblessed is becoming mythical even to people who know him as a man. 

> Syl hints at the sadness she'll go through when Kaladin eventually dies. Kaladin also mentions how falling isn't quite the same as Syl's flight. I think these things are foreshadowing that Kaladin and she will get to ride the winds together forever.

> I personally think this will be the way to escape the chemical imbalance he deals with and finally be happy. But I think it was really important for him to (invent?) therapy first, because it's definitely important to see that as an option. Had there not been a war I can see him taking therapy far. I still believe the research / methods will continue on after him.

This is my way out on a limb theory but I'm going all in on it.

My issue with my own crazy crackpot theory is how does being the wind even help the war effort at all. Unless he can become shardplate for everyone. 

[Chinkoln]

I will make a distinction between those worthy of protection and those who need to be removed for the protection of the greater good.

The wording is nowhere near perfect, but I think that the idea is right.

[jamesbondsmith]

10 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

I will make a distinction between those worthy of protection and those who need to be removed for the protection of the greater good.

The wording is nowhere near perfect, but I think that the idea is right.

'I will accept that some need to be protected, and that some need to be protected from.' Although tbh that seems like a lower level ideal, if Kaladin's 'kill all baddies/but who really are the baddies' transition is anything to go by.

[Frustration]

I have always thought that Oath 5 will be something along the lines of the surgeons rules for deciding who to opperate on

My phrasing goes something like

1. I will protect those in most danger first
2. If two groups are in equal danger I will protect the largest first
3. If a group can no longer benefit from my protection I will move on and protect those next most deserving.

[LuckyJim]

10 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

I will make a distinction between those worthy of protection and those who need to be removed for the protection of the greater good.

The wording is nowhere near perfect, but I think that the idea is right.

I don't think that fits with the Windrunner ideals. This sort of line of thinking, that certain people need to be eliminated for the greater good, would probably work for certain orders like the Elsecallers or Willshapers, but not the Windrunners. It sounds very similar to the justification Moash was using for his assassination of Elhokar, which was framed as something that went against Kaladin's general morality.

[Dracnor]

7 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't think that fits with the Windrunner ideals. This sort of line of thinking, that certain people need to be eliminated for the greater good, would probably work for certain orders like the Elsecallers or Willshapers, but not the Windrunners. It sounds very similar to the justification Moash was using for his assassination of Elhokar, which was framed as something that went against Kaladin's general morality.

In fact, that is the justification Kaladin used for himself when working with Moash on that assassination. And that killed Syl.

[mathiau]

9 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I don't think that fits with the Windrunner ideals. This sort of line of thinking, that certain people need to be eliminated for the greater good, would probably work for certain orders like the Elsecallers or Willshapers, but not the Windrunners. It sounds very similar to the justification Moash was using for his assassination of Elhokar, which was framed as something that went against Kaladin's general morality.

The orders of the Elscallers and Willshapers are respectively about reaching your own potential and seeking freedom, Willshapers could have an oath about destroying what keep people slaves and some could swear-it in a "I'll kill tyrants" way but" not all, but I don't a reason for Elscallers saying that.

[Master Silver]

On 12/28/2020 at 1:40 PM, jamesbondsmith said:

Arguably, 'I will not kill to protect' is what has lead to squillions of people in the DC universe being in need of rescuing from the Joker or any of Batman's other enemies. If Kaladin had killed Moash when he first attacked Elhokar in WOR, then Elhokar, Teft, Phendorana and the unnamed Radiant he stabbed in the face would still be alive, not to mention the people he indirectly harmed through allying with Odium.

I think it was Dalinar talking about Amaram when it was pointed out that imprisoning Shardbearers is pretty much impossible if you haven't forced them to break the bond to their Blade.

In the words of Mace Windu (regarding Moash), "he's too dangerous to be left alive." Kaladin, "It's not the Windrunner Way." Scar, "I'm ending this now." Kaladin, "I am not Anakin Skywalker."=Fifth Ideal :-p 

[Kitch]

What do you think you even get with the 5th ideal? Every oath basically unlocks something. With Nale we saw that he was able to accept the oaths for another radiant of his order. Maybe those of the 5 ideal are able to accept the words to progress in their oaths. 

 

[mathiau]

25 minutes ago, Kitch said:

What do you think you even get with the 5th ideal? Every oath basically unlocks something. With Nale we saw that he was able to accept the oaths for another radiant of his order. Maybe those of the 5 ideal are able to accept the words to progress in their oaths. 

 

The second order doesn't unlock anything

[NameIess]

I'm going to summarize all of the Windrunner oaths so far, and talk about the core idea that each represents:

Oath one: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. This oath, is probably the most varied in interpretation, despite being the one oath that is the same across all the orders.

Oath two: I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. This oath is pretty basic: you protect people who need protection.

Oath three: I will protect even ______. Brandon says that this oath is about removing your caveats about those you protect:

Spoiler

Q10fanatic

So, the third ideal of the Windrunners. Is it about protecting those you hate or is it more broadly about going against your instincts/wants in order to protect others better?

Brandon Sanderson

For most people, it's going to go along the hatred lines--but it extends all the way to what you're implying. Mostly, I think of it as, "I'll get rid of my caveats about those I'll protect."

You're likely to see the more extreme examples as I write out the oaths for others, particularly in-scene, as I don't want it to feel too repetitive. But you can assume that for most of the original members of Bridge Four (who are slowly hitting this ideal) that it had to do with agreeing to protect a group that they in some way dislike. (So long as it's right to do so, as defined by themselves and their spren, of course.)

Gale_Emchild

At or near the endgame of SA do you think you'd release a guide on the specifics of each orders oaths, so that the fans could personalise their own?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if I haven't gotten to them all by then, I will release them all.

Psydo5

Will we find out Sigzil's or was it just a fleeting mention? If so, are we going to get a personal 3rd ideal story from every Bridge 4 member?

Brandon Sanderson

Afraid we won't have a chance to see each and every one of them.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

Oath four: I will accept that there are those I cannot protect. This oath is about forgiving yourself:

Spoiler

Adam Coventry

Is the important part of the fourth oath of the Windrunners forgiving yourself? Kaladin had to accept that it wasn't his fault for the people that died, and it seemed that Teft was going down a similar path.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. I can expand on this one, it doesn't mean that every one of them will take exactly the same shape, but that is a major component in that oath. Speaking those words involves that for most Windrunners. How about that?

I like the oaths being a little more flexible along those lines, just because they work for more people that way. I like that the oaths express the individuality of the person, and the specific things that they are working on, and getting better at, and learning through the process.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

So the fifth ideal must be something different from any of those.