Valigus

The 5th windrunner ideal and moash

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Ok so I believe the 5th windrunner ideal is something along the lines of “I will kill to protect”

why do I think this, well the sky breakers progress toward different levels of the law

snd personally I believe Shallan and all light weavers but especially her are progressing toward seeing themselves for how they are, and her final ideal will probably be “I am shallan” or some variation of that

so what is the windrunner ideal progression is so far 

2. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves 

3. I will protect even those I hate

These seem to pretty much encompass everyone you could protect. 
 

do that brings us to 4 

Spoiler

I accept that there will be those I cannot protect

This is an exception that makes you more effective at your job, it allows you to move on/ keep moving

 

now additionally many of the main characters are almost the ideal(sorry not sorry) candidates for each order and so I think it’s probably a good idea to assume for speculation their arcs match up with the ideals and I think the biggest point in his arc kaladin has left is moash 

after rythm of war I don’t think moash is turning away from odium and based on the trend of the 4th ideal being a exception that makes you more effective at protecting, and kaladins biggest major plot point that has only been kinda resolved is that he wants to protect too many people, a big part of that is resolved now that he doesn’t have to constantly protect bridge four and many others but there are so many like the parshendi he still feels the need to protect, and this is paralyzing him

This follows the trajectory of the oaths i think and I believe he will swear the 5th ideal before or after killing moash, why do I believe this, because kaladin has to kill someone he doesn’t hate for no reason other then to protect others and moash fits that description since kaladin still does not want to kill him but he is a threat to so many people and now may want vengeance.

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@Ookla the Intimidating I summon your mod powers to move this to a RoW thread. :P 

Just so you know, @Valigus, RoW discussion (or anything that has the slighted RoW reference) is not allowed outside of the RoW forums. Thanks!

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5 minutes ago, Ookla's Dice said:

@Ookla the Intimidating I summon your mod powers to move this to a RoW thread. :P 

Just so you know, @Valigus, RoW discussion (or anything that has the slighted RoW reference) is not allowed outside of the RoW forums. Thanks!

Psst, far easier to just report than to mention a specific mod,

for future referance

I got you covered

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1 minute ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Psst, far easier to just report than to mention a specific mod,

for future referance

I got you covered

Thanks. Reporting just seems more... angry.

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Just now, Ookla's Dice said:

Thanks. Reporting just seems more... angry.

It's just easier as it let's all mods see instead of waiting for one to come online.

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3 hours ago, Valigus said:

now additionally many of the main characters are almost the ideal(sorry not sorry) candidates for each order and so I think it’s probably a good idea to assume for speculation their arcs match up with the ideals and I think the biggest point in his arc kaladin has left is moash 

after rythm of war I don’t think moash is turning away from odium and based on the trend of the 4th ideal being a exception that makes you more effective at protecting, and kaladins biggest major plot point that has only been kinda resolved is that he wants to protect too many people, a big part of that is resolved now that he doesn’t have to constantly protect bridge four and many others but there are so many like the parshendi he still feels the need to protect, and this is paralyzing him

This follows the trajectory of the oaths i think and I believe he will swear the 5th ideal before or after killing moash, why do I believe this, because kaladin has to kill someone he doesn’t hate for no reason other then to protect others and moash fits that description since kaladin still does not want to kill him but he is a threat to so many people and now may want vengeance.

I agree that the fifth ideal will deal with the issue of how to protect, but I do not agree that it is always "I will kill to protect". What it is will depend on the Radiants personal choice, and for some of them, it would be "I will not kill to protect" or even "I will not fight to protect".

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The other downside to an oath focusing on killing is what about the non soldier radiants.

Given the 5th oath of the skybreakers makes them the embodiment if justice, i feel the 5th oath for the windrunners (and all the orders) will follow suite I.E. the embodiment of protection, self mastery, self truth etc. How these are worded im not sure.

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I think the time for Kaladin to kill Moash has passed. I feel like he'll have more of a Gollum type moment, with his failings of character putting him in the right place at the right time to change everything, even if he doesn't mean to.

 

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It's a cool theory but all things considered I don't think it would fit with what the oaths are supposed to mean. These are words that, for one reason or another, are something hard to accept, an ideal to achieve with hard work. In my opinion, making it some sort of excuse to kill the most hated character would be lazy. I agree with the lightweavers ideal being "I am X" tho. 

Edited by Shard-Hammer
My phone sent it by accident while I was still writing it
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I think the final oath will have something to do with self sacrifice. This is a big contradiction to the Knights Radiant's first uttered oath Life before Death but I think the final Windrunner oath will involve the ultimate sacrifice. Could be wrong, I cold also see this as the final Stonewards oath considering their nature too.

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It's hard to guess what a final oath would be without more of a baseline do go by, I do like the idea of there being a unifying theme of an order's final oath being a declaration of "I am X", being the same for everyone in a given  order, but only being accepted when the spren believes the Radiant truly understands what their oaths mean not only individually, but as a whole, and how it embodies the spirit of the order. For example, " I am a protector ". To be a Wind runner, I shall protect the innocent. I shall protect those who may not even be deserving of it. And in the end I know I will I will fail, because no one can hope to stand between everyone and everything that wishes them harm, and we all fall in the end. But it is my duty, as so long as I live, I shall protect. Etc etc, light up like a Christmas tree, go fly around waving your spren stick etc.

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How about "I will equip others to protect themselves."

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7 hours ago, zebobes said:

How about "I will equip others to protect themselves."

That doesn’t really fit the theme to me, it seems like it’s goin up to protecting everyone then accepting the exceptions, and the only exception left is that maybe some people need to die to protect people, it’s possible the 5th windrunner ideal is much more personalized though

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The only 5th Ideal we know it the Skybreakers.

"I am the law"

This final Ideal completes a linear ladder for the Radiants that focus on law.

I don't think the 5th Ideal will be some ideal of leadership. It's been about protection so far and there's no reason, aside from a mention in a Way of Kings graphic that leadership is a secondary focus for Windrunners. I think the 5th Ideal will complete the ladder that Kaladin is already climbing.

"Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination" - This is the standard first ideal for all orders

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." - This ideal is a jumping off point, defining the order in general and making sure the Radiant is prepared to handle the powers in the right way. There are probably few permutations to this ideal; every Windrunner says pretty much the same thing here. 

"I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right." - This ideal we've seen at least 3 versions of. Teft made an Oath to protect himself, whom he hated. The Lopen took an Oath to protect others from himself, basically. This Third Ideal deals with a problem personal to the Windrunner that directly keeps them from protecting specific individuals.

"I accept that there will be those I cannot protect." - This is a limiter. A safety valve that relieves the pressure on the Windrunner created by the 2nd and 3rd Oaths. This will probably be vastly different for everyone but will probably amount to fixing a flaw with how the Windrunner deals with failure or with being overwhelmed by the Order's requirements. Personally, I think The Lopen's 4th Ideal will be his most difficult, since after the 3rd, he's pretty much perfect! Later: "I guess Lopen is not perfect." THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED. "Storm me! STOP DOING THAT!"

So what is Kaladin (and The Lopen) missing at this point? What Ideal can be held that will make them the perfect protectors?

  • A willingness to sacrifice - This makes sense, but it places an Ideal in place that encourages lessening the number of protectors going forward. As a perfect protector, whatever you're sacrificing yourself must be huge to justify removing your protection from time going forward. Also, Kaladin has lived this Ideal the entire time, almost lamenting that he hasn't been able to sacrifice himself.
  • "Put on your mask first before you put masks on others" - In order to optimally protect, you must be optimal, physically and mentally. This is my vote for the most likely 5th Ideal. It works both in world, and in narrative as a vehicle for Kaladin's improvement, and will result in the best protectors that spren and surges can provide.
  • Borrowing from the next post: "I will seek to protect only those who can be protected." - While I think this is a pretty simple extension of the 4th Ideal, it is different enough that it could warrant its own Oath. Since the Oath system is a system meant to limit who can use what levels of powers, granting the greatest powers that Honorspren can offer should require selectivity as to who they're used on or for.
  • Proactive protection #1: "The best defense is a solid offence" - This is probably a little to militant to create better protectors, but is more in line with what the Skybreakers become with the 5th Ideal. "I am the Law" puts the Radiant above the very precepts spent defending in the first 4 Ideals. There may be a similar swing with the Windrunners. This may also be a result of the death of Tanavast, the loss of Connection via the capturing of BAM, and the degeneration of the Heralds reflected in the Nahel Bond Oaths.
  • Proactive protection #2: "I will establish protection before the need arises" - This seems less like an Ideal and more like implementing good strategy. Probably not.

 

Edited by Leuthie
Added another possible Oath type
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On 12/5/2020 at 5:27 PM, Valigus said:

and personally I believe Shallan and all light weavers but especially her are progressing toward seeing themselves for how they are, and her final ideal will probably be “I am shallan” or some variation of that

There's so many odd factors to the state of Shallan's Ideal level and Lightweavers in general, it's almost impossible to pinpoint where she's really at and therefore where she's going. If not for Testament, I'd say she's already at the 5th Ideal equivalent for Lightweavers. But given that, it's possible that one or more of the Truths we've seen her speak have been to Testament. Even before RoW, I'd never really base any supposition on Shallan's Radiant path, too many extra factors and unreliable narration make it really hard to know anything as a fact as it relates to her. I'm starting to even doubt whether they have to swear "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." 

As for Windrunners, I'd say it's going to be along the lines of them choosing who to protect. It goes back to that scene in WoK where Lirin chose to save Roshone and let Riller die. Lirin first had to accept that he couldn't save Riller and had to choose to let him die to save the one he knew he could. The 4th Oath seems like it's more for accepting when you've failed to protect someone. These seem similar, but Kaladin wasn't forced to choose between saving Teft and doing something else. He was faced with the fact that he could not protect him. If it had just been Riller who was wounded and Lirin failed, that would relate more to the 4th Ideal. But he not only decided he could not save Riller, he immediately stopped using his time on him and moved on to Roshone. I have a feeling Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal when he is forced to save someone he knows he can while letting someone else that he isn't sure he can save die(or leaving them to whatever fate awaits). 

I think it would be quite interesting if I got that right as that scene with Lirin would embody every oath a Windrunner can make.

  • Protecting those who cannot protect themselves: Preforming lifesaving surgery on those who could not protect themselves from the whitespine. 
  • Protecting even those you hate: Saving Roshone's life even though he could have easily cut that artery and no one would ever know.
  • I will accept that there are those I cannot save: Acknowledging that Riller was beyond saving. 
  • I will prioritize those that I can save when I determine it is likely that there are those I cannot: Making Riller comfortable and focusing on saving Roshone despite what Kaladin or Roshone thought. 

 

Edit: Had an interesting thought. What if he has to decide he cannot save Moash and has to kill him to protect someone Moash is going to kill.

Edited by Harrycrapper
Typos
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I don't have a ton of evidence for this, but a nice idea I had was "I will allow myself to be protected".

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While I would love to see Kaladin swear the fifth ideal, the possibility remains that he will not. Many orders considered knights of the third and fourth ideals as full radiants, and it was more of an exception rather than the rule that one had to swear the fifth ideal, if our experience with the Skybreakers can be taken as representative of every order (which it may or may not be, but in this particular case, it seems reasonable that it is). 

The fact that Kaladin's scars have healed was a culmination of much of Kaladin's progression, which was tied to Kaladin accepting the idea of the fourth ideal. If Kaladin never swears the fifth ideal, I would be okay with that, as we still got to Kaladin heal mentally and physically from those scars (I know he still has a lot of mental health problems, but stormlight heals one according to how they view themselves). 

I don't know if there is much reason now for Kaladin to swear the fifth ideal beyond satisfying our curiosity regarding what cool new powers he'll have. What are your thoughts?

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9 minutes ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

While I would love to see Kaladin swear the fifth ideal, the possibility remains that he will not. Many orders considered knights of the third and fourth ideals as full radiants, and it was more of an exception rather than the rule that one had to swear the fifth ideal, if our experience with the Skybreakers can be taken as representative of every order (which it may or may not be, but in this particular case, it seems reasonable that it is). 

The fact that Kaladin's scars have healed was a culmination of much of Kaladin's progression, which was tied to Kaladin accepting the idea of the fourth ideal. If Kaladin never swears the fifth ideal, I would be okay with that, as we still got to Kaladin heal mentally and physically from those scars (I know he still has a lot of mental health problems, but stormlight heals one according to how they view themselves). 

I don't know if there is much reason now for Kaladin to swear the fifth ideal beyond satisfying our curiosity regarding what cool new powers he'll have. What are your thoughts?

I thino Kaladins quest to provide mental health support for Roshar, and his quest to heal Ishar will lead to more development and a step up to the 5th oath, or potentially (albiet a crazy long shot and id prefer 5th oath) either an honor blade for progression or a new spren bond. IMHO the 5th makes mores sense and covers Kaladins protection to beyond phyically protecting people, maybe even a protect people from their selves/past or something. I dont see Kaladins arc stopping here.

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Here’s a thought. What if the fifth wind runner oath takes them into the purview of the sky breakers. They share a surge, it could make sense. 
Specifically, what if the fifth oath is “I will seek justice for those whom I cannot protect”.
Moash no longer seems like a threat (although side note he also seems like an excellent hemalurgy candidate). Does his handicap now excuse him from justice? Is his handicap adequate justice? And here’s another thought, honorspren do seem to be all about form if not function of justice re: Adolin’s bleeding long trial plot line. 

It could be interesting to see szeth and kalafdin meet at level where they have both become the law. 

Edited by Jasqueen
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12 hours ago, Jasqueen said:

Here’s a thought. What if the fifth wind runner oath takes them into the purview of the sky breakers. They share a surge, it could make sense. 
Specifically, what if the fifth oath is “I will seek justice for those whom I cannot protect”.
Moash no longer seems like a threat (although side note he also seems like an excellent hemalurgy candidate). Does his handicap now excuse him from justice? Is his handicap adequate justice? And here’s another thought, honorspren do seem to be all about form if not function of justice re: Adolin’s bleeding long trial plot line. 

It could be interesting to see szeth and kalafdin meet at level where they have both become the law. 

That could be interesting but I doubt it woudl go as far as both becoming the law

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I think the fourth ideal was actually about forgiveness and acceptance. For Teft it would have been, “I forgive/accept myself.”

I think the fifth is the true limiter: “I recognize/accept when I SHOULD NOT protect.” Ultimately, you have to respect the rights of others to put themselves in danger. This will be Kal’s fifth. Teft’s would probably have been similar to Dalinar’s third, interestingly.

The general fifth will build on the fourth oath of the Individual Radiant. If the fourth is accepting yourself, the fifth is acknowledging your own flaws.

In Kaladin’s case, it’s his need to protect others - even when they don’t want it. He needs to accept that it’s not his place to keep everyone safe. We see this immediately after he says the fourth; he promptly goes ‘but I’ll save those I can.’ A good leader has to respect the rights of his men to choose their own fate.

Teft needed to forgive himself for his past mistakes. (Storm Moash! He was about to say it!) His fifth would be accepting that it’s okay to make new ones, or even repeat old ones.

I think Lopen’s fourth will be about forgiving himself for hurting others. The fifth will be the realization that he can use his wit without hurting people.

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So are the oaths different to each person even when they are in the same radiant order?

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