Jasqueen

Lift’s request to Cultivation

30 posts in this topic

I think it means she won’t be elevated to godhood. I don’t know how she will get put in this position or when, but cultivation is a god of progress and growth—so this is the only thing I can figure. What do you think?

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Hmm. Yes she’s a conundrum, that one.

looks like her actual words were:

Quote

“I said, when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same. I want to stay me. Not become someone else.”

Which doesn’t preclude growth, obviously, but to become a vessel that the power would be attracted to, she’d have to embrace change more than she has thus far for sure.

I am very interested in why cultivation gave her the ability to generate life light. Unless it was for this exact moment we saw: for her to stay her; when everything else was going wrong? 

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I'm also wondering what Brandon has up his sleeve with Lift, the other two characters who were granted wishes (Dalinar and T) turned into major SA players. Other threads have theorized each receiver of a Cultivation wish will become a vessel for a shard (Lift = Cultivation & Dalinar = Honor).

Lift's request of Cultivation seems unique though as she literally went to the God of change and growth and requested not to change... That's like an aspiring writer getting a one on one meeting with Brandon Sanderson and the one and only question asked is " Mr. Sanderson, how can I write a bad novel?". 

It seems cultivation can not only cause growth, but can tamper with and even slow growth in an entity. Much like Odium can both augment passion (Dalinar) and calm passion (Moash's numbness) in a person.

Both Dalinar and T's gifts were used by cultivation to manipulate a desired outcome.  Indeed I wonder what benefit can slowing a person's physical (and i suspect mental maturity's) growth have to Cultiavation?... The answer will likely be a surprise, and yet right there in front of us the whole time ;) In Brandon I trust.

Edited by Hearty_Joe
typos
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Lift asked to not change. That's antithesis to Cultivation, so to offset the request, she made Lift hers. Lift can't take in Stormlight. She has to eat and make use of the Lifelight produced.

I see the death of Tanavast as a sacrifice Tanavast made. I see Cultivation setting herself up for her own sacrifice and setting Lift up as the new Vessel; a Vessel that resists change herself, yet uses her powers to propagate change in others.

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1 hour ago, Hearty_Joe said:

Lift's request of Cultivation seems unique though as she literally went to the God of change and growth and requested not to change... That's like and aspiring writer getting a one on one meeting with Brandon Sanderson and the one and only question asked is " Mr. Sanderson, how can I write a bad novel?". 

Brandon proceeds to point him to The Sword of Truth. :lol:

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21 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I see the death of Tanavast as a sacrifice Tanavast made.

This is an interesting thought I’ve playing with for a few days—but a sacrifice for whom? Did he think Hoid would ascend?

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49 minutes ago, Jasqueen said:

This is an interesting thought I’ve playing with for a few days—but a sacrifice for whom? Did he think Hoid would ascend?

Why Hoid?

I like the possibility he worked with Cultivation to tighten Odium's prison and destabilize the Vessel-Shard relationship, culminating with Mr. T taking Rayse out. They probably saw that Odium would eventually splinter Honor, anyway, so made preparations that hastened the process but allowed for the Oathpact to last longer, giving time for a counter strike.

His preparations included finding and grooming someone to bond to his remaining power (Dalinar -> Cultivation "curse", visions, Bondsmith, etc.), so there wasn't thought of a specific new Vessel, just a plan to get more time.

This isn't even a theory, just a hunch based on his preparations prior to being killed.

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23 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I see the death of Tanavast as a sacrifice Tanavast made. 

He may even see his sacrifice as the Honorable thing to do. 
I also think that as time passes, shard will always take over the vessel. But a new vessel has more flexibility in respect of interpreting the shards Intent. Also, Odium shard may not be the best only one that wants to remain odium (reason why Rayse  never picked up other shards). It should be true for all the shards. 
So either Tanavast was dying already but very slowly and he hastened it or he sacrificed himself, so that a new vessel can do the things he will not be able to do. A new vessel will be able to push the power in ways that was no longer possible for Tanavast. 
In the same way, if Lift is indeed selected as the successor to cultivation, then may be a new vessel who opposes/ hates change may be strong enough ( in the short run) to control  the shard? And do things that koravah can not. 

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5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Why Hoid?

Because he’s the only one who we definitely know rejected ascension? It’s not a great theory, just the only one I could think of bc I could not imagine a god killing himself with no idea who could pick up the power.  Unless Koraveh convinced him to...

 

4 hours ago, Aon Tia said:

So either Tanavast was dying already but very slowly and he hastened it or he sacrificed himself, so that a new vessel can do the things he will not be able to do.

So do we know when Honor died? Same time as the recreance?

 

4 hours ago, Aon Tia said:

may be a new vessel who opposes/ hates change may be strong enough ( in the short run) to control  the shard? And do things that koravah can not. 

Interesting thought that being a vessel who opposes the shard could be a strength, short term, instead of the weakness that Sazed suggests that it is in the long term. Something to chew on....

Edited by Jasqueen
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5 hours ago, Jasqueen said:

Interesting thought that being a vessel who opposes the shard could be a strength, short term, instead of the weakness that Sazed suggests that it is in the long term. Something to chew on....

The only evidence we have is contrary to this but may be different circumstances different result. 
Otherwise Lift for cultivation does not make sense, or may be she will go through some kind of lesson which will teach her to accept change. 
 

He was dying at the time of Recreance and was thus raving mad. We don’t really know when Honor died, but it was sometime after Recreance. 

Edited by Aon Tia
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1 hour ago, Aon Tia said:

The only evidence we have is contrary to this but may be different circumstances different result. 
Otherwise Lift for cultivation does not make sense, or may be she will go through some kind of lesson which will teach her to accept change. 

Lift doesn't oppose change, she just doesn't want herself to change. The Shard's Intent doesn't have to apply to the Vessel. Preservation didn't require Leras to preserve himself. Odium didn't require Rayse to hate himself. Cultivation wouldn't require Lift to change herself.

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10 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Lift doesn't oppose change, she just doesn't want herself to change. The Shard's Intent doesn't have to apply to the Vessel. Preservation didn't require Leras to preserve himself.

It would be just like Sanderson to show us the weakness in a blended, ambivalent shard... suggesting that we the reader should incorrectly assume a sweeping generalization that therefore a vessel/shard inner conflict is always a weakness.

 

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1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Lift doesn't oppose change, she just doesn't want herself to change. The Shard's Intent doesn't have to apply to the Vessel. Preservation didn't require Leras to preserve himself. Odium didn't require Rayse to hate himself. Cultivation wouldn't require Lift to change herself.

Thanks that actually helps support my original post in this thread. :D

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I do think it’s important to note that Wyndle then asks Lift if those are the exact words she used and Lift says Cultivation should have been able to work it out. 
 

I feel what Lift says she said is not exactly what she actually said. 

Edited by Xerun
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I think Lyft might actually be trans? She (and forgive me I'm gonna use she, if only to refer to her current self) talks about wanting to stay her mother's "little girl" and, being a kid, expected that to mean she would never grow up. From what I've read from Trans folk (particularly those who experience gender dysphoria): Puberty is The Worst, because all the ways in which your body felt "wrong" now start to become pronounced in ways that are harder to ignore. 

Like, she's wearing a flippin' binder to flatten her chest. When mine were popping out at that age I was ECSTATIC. That is not the reaction Lyft is having. This is much deeper than just being able to squeeze into small spaces. She does NOT like these things. 

As for her meeting with Cultivation: Lyft being a kid, she miiiiight not realize this was what she meant? I know lots of trans folks know pretty early on something's off/different about their situation, but I wouldn't be surprised Lyft didn't have the language to express her exact desires, to Cultivation or to herself. (I may not be trans but there's plenty of situations as a kid I couldn't articulate at the time. Lack of grownups to talk to, be it neglect or simply a lack thereof, about this sorta thing can do that.) 

It could be Cultivation made it so that one part of her soul kinda "locked" into place, so that she would stay a She when she might actually be a He or They or something else. 

Spoiler

HOW DO I MAKE THIS GO AWAY I'M NEW HERE AND ON MOBILE HELP LMAO 

Anyways I think for Lyft, her Boon /is/ her Curse. Boon: you won't change! Curse: you won't change. (Also I don't think investiture stops someone from going through puberty, based on what I know of the Returned from Nalthis. So the Peter Pan route was never in the cards.) 

I also recognise this doesn't really explain why she can make Lifelight, but my best guess is that Lifelight doesn't have the same properties as stormlight? Or maybe it's because Cultivation saw the creation of Anti-stormlight, so she decided to create a wild card out of Lyft. 

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On 5.12.2020 at 9:20 PM, Bliev said:

I am very interested in why cultivation gave her the ability to generate life light. Unless it was for this exact moment we saw: for her to stay her; when everything else was going wrong? 

That is still an open question

  • it may be a side effect and Cultivation cared about her ability to make Investiture from food
  • Cultivation foresaw an occasion free Lifelight would be needed
  • Lift may be immune to anti-Stormlight daggers
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“I said, when everything else is going wrong, I want to be the same. I want to stay me. Not become someone else.”

Look at the other boons Cultivation granted. Both were so much more than what Dalinar and Mr T expected. Or even what we as the readers expected. Cultivation is playing a long, long game (well, long by mortal standards). 
 

While Lift is imagining she wants to never grow up and remain a child forever, I think Cultivation knows better. Lift’s wish as she imagined it is a child’s wish, and it is so limited. Cultivation wants tools and influence, and here is a chance to set a top spinning across the field for the long term. 
 

I’d interpret Lift’s wish as a desire to remain true to one’s core self. That may in part explain the life light generation and bonding the cultivationspren. She has access to Regrowth, which keeps your physical self matched to your spiritual self a la healing. I suspect there’s more to it and we see only this tiny piece for now. Lift staying true to herself in the face of things going terribly wrong will somehow prove critical. Cultivation sets out her chess pieces to prepare for what will happen 50 moves from now. 

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13 minutes ago, knightedbishop said:

I’d interpret Lift’s wish as a desire to remain true to one’s core self. That may in part explain the life light generation and bonding the cultivationspren. She has access to Regrowth, which keeps your physical self matched to your spiritual self a la healing. I suspect there’s more to it and we see only this tiny piece for now. Lift staying true to herself in the face of things going terribly wrong will somehow prove critical. Cultivation sets out her chess pieces to prepare for what will happen 50 moves from now. 

You could also interpret it much more concrete. Can she use a Soulcaster without side effects? What happens if Lift swallows Yelig-Nar? Can you use hemalurgy on her?

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On 7.12.2020 at 8:11 PM, Leuthie said:

Lift asked to not change. That's antithesis to Cultivation, so to offset the request, she made Lift hers. Lift can't take in Stormlight.

I don't think this is relevant. we know of no restriction to the Nightwatchers boons and curses. alternating "capacity" is also not something one can attribute to growth or cultivating.
same goes for forgetting memory. for that one could make a case that Dalinar grew. its still more of a sideeffect than directly because of the boon/curse.
there is nothing special about Cultivations manipulation of Dalinar or anyone else. its the same thing as Preservation did. as Odium tried and so on. its what Shards do. they use their foresight for their plans.

according to @Bliev quote what Lift asks is a complete wildcard. anything goes. its impossible to not be yourself. unless you want to argue semantics.

Edited by trav
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2 hours ago, trav said:

I don't think this is relevant. we know of no restriction to the Nightwatchers boons and curses. alternating "capacity" is also not something one can attribute to growth or cultivating.
same goes for forgetting memory. for that one could make a case that Dalinar grew. its still more of a sideeffect than directly because of the boon/curse.
there is nothing special about Cultivations manipulation of Dalinar or anyone else. its the same thing as Preservation did. as Odium tried and so on. its what Shards do. they use their foresight for their plans.

according to @Bliev quote what Lift asks is a complete wildcard. anything goes. its impossible to not be yourself. unless you want to argue semantics.

I would also say that Cultivation doesn't want to change people herself, she wants to encourage them to grow. To Cultivate them. Her "pruning" led to Dalinar's growth...though still a risk. Her intervention with Taravangian led to his growth, into a shard no less!, but was a risk. She is not risk averse but she doesn't change them into what she wants them to be herself. If Lift is indeed another tool she's unleashed with the hope that it will work out in her favor, she's hoping Lift will grow because of her "pruning" or interference, and doesn't really care what Lift asked for. The interlude confirms that Lift is growing from it, right? She's admitting to Wyndle what she wanted and why she wanted it and how hurt she is about it. She's setting herself up to understand herself better and grow into a stronger person. I think that's pretty consistent with the shard.

I'll also concur with other stuff on this thread--Lift's wanting to cultivate others will probably be more attractive to the power than her own change. After all, cultivation is somewhat of a third party thing, to my mind. You cultivate OTHER things, not yourself so much. I wonder if there's a connection here to Wyndle and why he was chosen as her spren (e.g., he was a gardener, of chairs, right?) and the fact that he has not lost his memory as badly like most spren who agree to bond seem to have done when they enter the physical realm. 

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10 hours ago, Maica said:

I think Lyft might actually be trans? She (and forgive me I'm gonna use she, if only to refer to her current self) talks about wanting to stay her mother's "little girl" and, being a kid, expected that to mean she would never grow up. From what I've read from Trans folk (particularly those who experience gender dysphoria): Puberty is The Worst, because all the ways in which your body felt "wrong" now start to become pronounced in ways that are harder to ignore. 

Like, she's wearing a flippin' binder to flatten her chest. When mine were popping out at that age I was ECSTATIC. That is not the reaction Lyft is having. This is much deeper than just being able to squeeze into small spaces. She does NOT like these things. 

As for her meeting with Cultivation: Lyft being a kid, she miiiiight not realize this was what she meant? I know lots of trans folks know pretty early on something's off/different about their situation, but I wouldn't be surprised Lyft didn't have the language to express her exact desires, to Cultivation or to herself. (I may not be trans but there's plenty of situations as a kid I couldn't articulate at the time. Lack of grownups to talk to, be it neglect or simply a lack thereof, about this sorta thing can do that.) 

It could be Cultivation made it so that one part of her soul kinda "locked" into place, so that she would stay a She when she might actually be a He or They or something else. 

  Hide contents

HOW DO I MAKE THIS GO AWAY I'M NEW HERE AND ON MOBILE HELP LMAO 

Anyways I think for Lyft, her Boon /is/ her Curse. Boon: you won't change! Curse: you won't change. (Also I don't think investiture stops someone from going through puberty, based on what I know of the Returned from Nalthis. So the Peter Pan route was never in the cards.) 

I also recognise this doesn't really explain why she can make Lifelight, but my best guess is that Lifelight doesn't have the same properties as stormlight? Or maybe it's because Cultivation saw the creation of Anti-stormlight, so she decided to create a wild card out of Lyft. 

She has Peter Pan syndrome and body dysmorphia. Two completely different conditions. She’s not trans; she has expressed no problems with her gender, just her biological age.

And I HATED puberty. I didn’t enjoy getting my period (turns out I have menstrual depression) and I didn’t like having to wear a bra. I spent a lot of puberty wishing I was male for various reasons.

And then I grew up, finished puberty, and discovered that I was actually very happy being female. You can dislike puberty for reasons that have nothing to do with being trans. A lot of people are just very uncomfortable with their changing bodies or have other issues (like severe menstrual symptoms) that effect their reactions.

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3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

She has Peter Pan syndrome and body dysmorphia. Two completely different conditions. She’s not trans; she has expressed no problems with her gender, just her biological age.

And I HATED puberty. I didn’t enjoy getting my period (turns out I have menstrual depression) and I didn’t like having to wear a bra. I spent a lot of puberty wishing I was male for various reasons.

And then I grew up, finished puberty, and discovered that I was actually very happy being female. You can dislike puberty for reasons that have nothing to do with being trans. A lot of people are just very uncomfortable with their changing bodies or have other issues (like severe menstrual symptoms) that effect their reactions.

Yeah, that's fair. I totally forgot about body dysmorphia. I knew something felt off about the idea of her being trans but couldn't put my finger on it. (That's what I get for posting at 1? 2 in the morning? Bleh.) Had the same experience wishing I was a boy due to the period nonsense too.

And fist bump of solidarity for the PMMD: I have the same deal. Started out as melancholy throughout my teens and twenties, then got a bit worse once I hit 30. Thankfully I got help for my "regular" depression before that happened so I've the tools to deal with it but STILL. Really flippin' annoying, to put it lightly. ;P 

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2 hours ago, Maica said:

Yeah, that's fair. I totally forgot about body dysmorphia. I knew something felt off about the idea of her being trans but couldn't put my finger on it. (That's what I get for posting at 1? 2 in the morning? Bleh.) Had the same experience wishing I was a boy due to the period nonsense too.

And fist bump of solidarity for the PMMD: I have the same deal. Started out as melancholy throughout my teens and twenties, then got a bit worse once I hit 30. Thankfully I got help for my "regular" depression before that happened so I've the tools to deal with it but STILL. Really flippin' annoying, to put it lightly. ;P 

Fist bump accepted! There really needs to be more awareness of PMDD.

In my case it’s isolated; I ONLY experience depressive symptoms during the week before, and first day or so of, my period. So there really isn’t that much that can be done because it doesn’t last long enough. 

I can’t even use birth control meds, because I get pre-partum depression and BC meds mimic pregnancy enough to cause me to experience depression. That doesn’t get enough attention either; when I gave birth I got a asked a ton of questions to make sure I didn’t have post-partum. I was like, “now you ask? I was depressed for the past nine months - I’m fine now, thanks.” It ended right around the time I started having pre-labor.

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@Bliev I don't see a distinction between what Cultivation does or what any other Shard is doing. shes not special in this. all the Shards are planning ahead.
its a stretch to call it cultivating. what Ruin and Perservation did to Vin, Harmony did to Wax or what Odium did to Dalinar (even though it failed) is the same.

growth is something inherent to all beings in the cosmere. we know this now. its one of the fundamental laws. its not Cultivation-induced.
shes playing the same game as any other Shard is.

 

 

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On 09/12/2020 at 0:13 AM, Aon Tia said:

Thanks that actually helps support my original post in this thread. 

Sure does, actually between you you’ve convinced me. 

I’ve been thinking a lot about blending opposites for strength. Anyone have any theories on why honorspren manifest as playful windscreen when they are known for being stodgy? 

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