What's up with all the Jasnah love?

[agrabes]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:54 PM, Seloun said:

I would have to argue against Jasnah not expressing any uncertainty in RoW. I'm guessing that lot of this is influenced by her first major scene (where she 'kills' Ruthar), but I think it's not really representative of her throughout the book. I also don't think that it's accurate that she confides solely in Wit (though he does appear to be her main confidant at this point) - we see a couple of scenes where she does or is implied to have discussed matters with especially Dalinar (e.g. Ch. 17, 'A Proposal'); Dalinar's possession and building off of the contract for the duel of champions written by Wit/Jasnah seems to suggest he's familiar with (and presumably agrees with) the contents.

Also, her internal perspectives certainly express uncertainty or realization of error; the most significant or notable is the section immediately following her battle experience:

The other thing to note is that when Jasnah is expressing certainty during debates, it's likely a rhetorical device:

It's common in debate to present a particular position as firmly as possible (regardless of how much one personally agrees with the premise) to give the argument a fair shake. Being half-hearted about it may mean that the position was sound, but the debater was not, which makes it difficult to have confidence about the merits of the argument itself (as opposed to the person doing the arguing).

I actually thought Oathbringer was worse for how it presented Jasnah (e.g. kill all the parshmen/Heralds argument with Kaladin).

For me, the two scenes that were the worst for Jasnah were her "discussion" with Dalinar about Alethi political policy where she railroaded over him and refused to listen to any of his arguments or even acknowledge that they had any merit and the scene where she disposed of her political rival. 

It's one thing for her to run roughshod over some random person and ignore all their arguments as a debate tactic - but this is Dalinar who had been one of her closest confidants.  To ignore and dismiss what he had to say definitely made her a lot lower in my point of view.  This is a close friend and family member who has always treated you with dignity and respect even when others have not - you can still disagree with him, but you need to acknowledge his points have merit, acknowledge there's a possibility you may be wrong.  This is not a debate being held between political rivals, it's a discussion among friends.  If you're debating it to the maximum extent with a friend who is trying to offer you advice based on years of experience, then you're kind of being a jerk.

Her pseudo-murder of her political rival also turned me off significantly.  Not necessarily for the fact that it happened - but for how self-righteous she acted while doing it.  I think that scene was Sanderson's way of giving a nod to the fact that there's no way the other nobles/lighteyes would just accept her radical policies without a fight, but saying "yeah, we don't have time to do that plot justice so I'm ending it here."  Which I'm cool with - this isn't the story of the Alethi civil war, it's the story of the battle with Odium and the Fused.  The way it happened just felt very unpleasant for a lot of reasons that I have a hard time describing.  I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that even though she could have, she really did not defeat him openly with arguments and logic, she simply used underhanded tactics to maneuver him into a position where she could eliminate him because it was the most convenient way. In my view, the tactics she used completely undermined her moral superiority.

In terms of her battle scene - I think there's a key distinction between uncertainty and realizing errors.  This was realizing an error.  Had she entered the battle thinking about how she wasn't sure if this was really a good idea to kill so many people or if she had enough experience or the right temperament, but telling herself it was still the best logical course of action, I'd have thought a lot differently.  That kind of doubt and uncertainty is what would have made her a likable character in my eyes.  Instead, she entered the battle completely sure of herself - no doubts in her mind that slaughtering countless humans and common singers/parsh was a problem at all and only later realized her mistake.  (At least this was my memory of the scene, your quote makes me doubt my memory a little bit.) Instead of being likable, this makes her feel arrogant and her remorse after the fact feels like a justified punishment for her earlier bad actions rather than a moment to feel sympathy for her.

To me, Jasnah's arguments about killing the parshmen and/or Heralds in OB were much more justified and contextualized. We'd seen in WoK and WoR that she has spent years researching this very issue.  We also knew from her conversations with Shallan that it was a serious moral dilemma for her and that she was probably convinced of the answer for a while, but wasn't willing to say it because she didn't like the implications of what it would mean if she was right.  For her to come out and take the position she did in Oathbringer felt completely sympathetic to me because she had done the work and she had had the conversations to show us she was reluctant to do it, but that she was convinced it was the best way.  Even in that conversation, she acknowledged that Kaladin had a point (i.e. she felt compassion for the parshmen and/or heralds had value) but that his point was outweighed by the greater need to save the world.  Outside of that one debate scene in early OB, she was very sympathetic in agonizing over what she should do with Renarin - torn between decisive logic and emotion.

Anyway, to be clear I'm not a Jasnah hater in general.  I think in future books, I will probably like her again.  I just felt that her character was very unsympathetic during RoW.

[Seloun]

13 minutes ago, agrabes said:

It's one thing for her to run roughshod over some random person and ignore all their arguments as a debate tactic - but this is Dalinar who had been one of her closest confidants.  To ignore and dismiss what he had to say definitely made her a lot lower in my point of view.  This is a close friend and family member who has always treated you with dignity and respect even when others have not - you can still disagree with him, but you need to acknowledge his points have merit, acknowledge there's a possibility you may be wrong.  This is not a debate being held between political rivals, it's a discussion among friends.  If you're debating it to the maximum extent with a friend who is trying to offer you advice based on years of experience, then you're kind of being a jerk.

I kind of understand what you mean here about Jasnah coming off as being a bit of a jerk, but I think the reading might be slightly off. The main things to note here:

1) Jasnah is the one who asks Dalinar and Navani for their opinions (it's not Dalinar who brings it up to her):

Quote

“He will bring the Heralds,” Jasnah said. “Until he returns, perhaps we can discuss the proposal I showed you before you left for Hearthstone, Uncle.”

Oh dear, Navani thought. Here we go.… Jasnah had been pushing toward a singular law for Alethkar. A dangerous one.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Jasnah solicits Dalinar's opinion - it's not Dalinar bringing up an objection and her simply rejecting it out of hand. Also, it's pretty clear Dalinar hasn't really thought about the issue besides, well, dismiss it out of hand as a viable opinion:

Quote

Dalinar stood up and began to pace. Not a good sign. “This isn’t the time, Jasnah. We can’t create social upheaval on this scale during such a terrible moment in our history.”

“Says the man,” Jasnah said, “who wrote a book earlier this year. Upending centuries of established gender norms.”

Dalinar winced.

“Mother,” Jasnah said to Navani, “I thought you said you’d talk to him.”

“There wasn’t a convenient opportunity,” Navani said. “And … to be honest, I share his concerns.”

“I forbid this,” Dalinar said. “You can’t simply free every Alethi slave. It would cause mass chaos.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So Dalinar brings up two objections here (really one objection stated twice). This leads to:

2) Jasnah does specifically respond to Dalinar's points:

Quote

“Our lives are already in chaos,” Jasnah said. “This is precisely the time to make sweeping changes, when people are already adjusting to a new way of life. The historical data supports this idea.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

She acknowledges that Dalinar is likely correct that this proposal will cause significant upheaval in society. Her counterargument is that society is already going to be significantly impacted anyway due to other events (making this a good time to push through other changes which are minor by comparison). Her statement also implies she's done extensive research about historical precedent for changes like this.

3) She's not dismissive of the concerns Dalinar (and Navani) bring up; however, she's already considered most of what they mention:

Quote

“By freeing the ardents from being owned?” Jasnah asked, amused. “Well, I suppose some will say that. They’ll see an attack in anything I do. Contrastingly, this is for their good. In freeing the ardents, I risk letting the church become a political power in the world again.”

“And … that doesn’t worry you?” Navani asked. Sometimes sorting out this woman’s motivations—which she claimed were always very straightforward—was like trying to read the Dawnchant.

“Of course it worries me,” Jasnah said. “However, I’d prefer ardents actively participating in politics, as opposed to the behind-the-scenes smoke screen they use now. This will give them more opportunity for power, yes, but also expose their actions to increased public scrutiny.”

Jasnah tapped the table with a nail on her freehand. She wore her safehand in a sleeve, eminently proper, though Navani knew Jasnah thought little of social constructs. She followed them anyway. Immaculate makeup. Hair in braids. A beautiful, regal havah.

“This will be for the good of Alethkar in the long run,” Jasnah said. “Economically and morally. Uncle Dalinar’s objections are valuable. I will listen, figure out how to respond to such challenges.…”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I don't know how she could have handled this better. Jasnah actively looks for counterarguments to her proposal. She responds to every objection brought up, and (implied) has data/research to back up her assertions. She acknowledges the potential problems with her proposal, but notes that the circumstances make it a good time for it and the alternatives are likely to be worse. She also leaves her plan to be criticized further.

Really, this is exactly how a good executive should act; as she notes, Jasnah is not asking for permission here, but she is genuinely open to objections she might not have considered. Dalinar doesn't provide anything she hasn't already considered (and it really seems implied that he hasn't spent a lot of time thinking or researching this) but she's willing to keep listening. She's decided on the goal (get rid of slavery) but is willing to accept help with/refine further the implementation ('figure out how to respond to such challenges').

I won't defend the Rushar scene here (I don't think her position there is nearly as solid, anyway), but I do want to clarify the point about Jasnah's argument (and it's an argument, not a discussion) with Kaladin in Oathbringer. I don't disagree with her position necessarily (or find it morally indefensible); the issue I have is that she makes a personal attack on Kaladin rather than the merits of the argument:

Quote

“Storms!” Kaladin said, standing up straight. “Have you no sympathy?”

“I have plenty, bridgeman. Fortunately, I temper it with logic. Perhaps you should consider acquiring some at a future date.”

...

“Protecting Alethkar,” Kaladin said, “doesn’t have to mean completely crushing the parshmen and—”

“If you wish, Captain,” Jasnah snapped, “I can get you some mink kits to cuddle while the adults plan. None of us want to talk about this, but that does not make it any less inevitable.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (pp. 415-416). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The main redeeming thing is that I think Jasnah would probably agree that it was out of line:

Quote

“Brightness!” Shallan said as Jasnah sat. “That was incredible!”

“I let myself be pushed into abundant emotion.”

“You were so clever!”

“And yet, my first insult was not to attack him, but the moral reputation of his female relative. Clever? Or simply the use of an obvious bludgeon?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 527). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(for context, this is immediately after her encounter with Amaram)

Nevertheless, it's not a great look to be insulting your debate partner (even if it is in addition to addressing the point). It stood out to me because it seemed very out of character for Jasnah, although with RoW it might just be that Jasnah is actually much more emotional than she presents.

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Seloun said:

I kind of understand what you mean here about Jasnah coming off as being a bit of a jerk, but I think the reading might be slightly off. The main things to note here:

1) Jasnah is the one who asks Dalinar and Navani for their opinions (it's not Dalinar who brings it up to her):

Jasnah solicits Dalinar's opinion - it's not Dalinar bringing up an objection and her simply rejecting it out of hand. Also, it's pretty clear Dalinar hasn't really thought about the issue besides, well, dismiss it out of hand as a viable opinion:

So Dalinar brings up two objections here (really one objection stated twice). This leads to:

2) Jasnah does specifically respond to Dalinar's points:

She acknowledges that Dalinar is likely correct that this proposal will cause significant upheaval in society. Her counterargument is that society is already going to be significantly impacted anyway due to other events (making this a good time to push through other changes which are minor by comparison). Her statement also implies she's done extensive research about historical precedent for changes like this.

3) She's not dismissive of the concerns Dalinar (and Navani) bring up; however, she's already considered most of what they mention:

I don't know how she could have handled this better. Jasnah actively looks for counterarguments to her proposal. She responds to every objection brought up, and (implied) has data/research to back up her assertions. She acknowledges the potential problems with her proposal, but notes that the circumstances make it a good time for it and the alternatives are likely to be worse. She also leaves her plan to be criticized further.

Really, this is exactly how a good executive should act; as she notes, Jasnah is not asking for permission here, but she is genuinely open to objections she might not have considered. Dalinar doesn't provide anything she hasn't already considered (and it really seems implied that he hasn't spent a lot of time thinking or researching this) but she's willing to keep listening. She's decided on the goal (get rid of slavery) but is willing to accept help with/refine further the implementation ('figure out how to respond to such challenges').

I won't defend the Rushar scene here (I don't think her position there is nearly as solid, anyway), but I do want to clarify the point about Jasnah's argument (and it's an argument, not a discussion) with Kaladin in Oathbringer. I don't disagree with her position necessarily (or find it morally indefensible); the issue I have is that she makes a personal attack on Kaladin rather than the merits of the argument:

The main redeeming thing is that I think Jasnah would probably agree that it was out of line:

(for context, this is immediately after her encounter with Amaram)

Nevertheless, it's not a great look to be insulting your debate partner (even if it is in addition to addressing the point). It stood out to me because it seemed very out of character for Jasnah, although with RoW it might just be that Jasnah is actually much more emotional than she presents.

Those are some good points you bring up about her discussion on slavery with Dalinar and Navani.  You're right that she did consider Dalinar and Navani's opinions.  I didn't remember the specifics of that scene very well, just the general impression I got of it.  You're right to say she has already considered those ideas because she directly says as much.  To me at least, it just feels like she hasn't because in that discussion she says she's already considered them and won't discuss them further.  As a leader, you can't offer a chance to everyone who is skeptical of you to discuss your decisions in depth.  But Dalinar is important enough that he deserves a shot - and we as the readers also deserve a shot to hear a fleshed out discussion about the topic.  At least, that's what I would have preferred.  Jasnah did respond to his points, but her responses were pretty flimsy and generic for someone who is highly intelligent and so certain she is right.  So, I will grant you that we are told there's been a lot of thought put into this behind the scenes.  It just didn't come across (to me) in what we saw on screen.  I probably put more emphasis on that whole topic than I should just because it's something I find interesting in real world history.  It's probably not going to be a significant plot point in the overall SA story.

I didn't have an issue with her comment toward Kaladin at all.  I don't consider it an insult or personal attack and I don't think Kaladin took it as one.  It was an appropriate rebuke to him - he can't dismiss her proposed plan without considering it just because he doesn't like one part of its moral implications.  By choosing to spare the Singers, he may be condemning the humans to death and he was refusing to consider that part of the equation.

Her outburst toward Amaram though is the type of behavior that makes me dislike her character.  Not for the feminist reasons Jasnah herself gives, though she has a fair point on that too.  I give her a pass on that particular situation because there is obviously some very bad history between Jasnah and Amaram that we don't know about yet, so I expect once we know that her extreme disproportionate reaction toward him will make a lot more sense in context.  But out of context, it feels petty and spiteful which is what turns me off.  And in RoW, it feels like she's in that mode more often than not.  But, to be fair that's just my reading of it.  

[Seloun]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

I didn't have an issue with her comment toward Kaladin at all.  I don't consider it an insult or personal attack and I don't think Kaladin took it as one.  It was an appropriate rebuke to him - he can't dismiss her proposed plan without considering it just because he doesn't like one part of its moral implications.  By choosing to spare the Singers, he may be condemning the humans to death and he was refusing to consider that part of the equation.

Well, it's a pretty classic example of an ad hominem attack to imply your opponent is lacking logic or is too emotional (or otherwise belittle the person making the argument rather than the argument itself). It just stands out because this is perhaps the most common fallacy in debate and I wouldn't have expected Jasnah to have made such a mistake. If she had said his argument was lacking in logic or was stupid dumb poo (slightly more defensible) I think it wouldn't have been so jarring.

Basically what I didn't like about it wasn't that she was insulting someone (or Kaladin specifically) but that she was using that as part of an argument during a discussion, which felt very out of character.

I think that Jasnah's example of vindictiveness is mostly confined to the Ruthar scene, which I do find harder to defend - it's effective, both in the short term (removing Ruthar) and long term (outlawing duelling), but the sheer callous calculatedness hurts her cause in other ways, I think. Dalinar remarks on it too:

Quote

Jasnah plucked the paper from his fingers. “I will use my own unfortunate experience today as an example of why this is a terrible tradition. Ruthar’s blood will be the last such spilled. And as we leave this era of barbarism, each and every attendant at court will know that Alethkar’s first queen is a woman unafraid of doing what needs to be done. Herself.”

She was firm, so Dalinar tucked away his anger, then turned to leave. A part of him understood her move, and it was likely to be effective. Yet at the same time, it displayed that Jasnah Kholin—brilliant, determined—was not perfect. There were things about her that unnerved even the callous soldier that lived deep inside him.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

I wouldn't necessarily call this petty (it's pretty serious stuff) but spiteful is not a bad way to describe it; the main redeeming factor is that it was not merely for the sake of spite. So it's definitely in the text, though I think this is actually the only real example of it in RoW. Her discussions with Dalinar all seem pretty respectful.

[TypicalShard]

The moments we do get with Jasnah help me like her a lot more, weirdly enough. In WoKs there are some heavy implications for the things that Jasnah has been through in the past, I forgot which chapter but I think it was when Shallan notes how she talks about men, and again in OB. She mentions being locked in a dark room and screaming because they thought she was insane and also because her parents are not the greatest. (I love Navani but she really stormed up there. Honestly its says a lot about Jasnah caring nature that she still cried for her father and clearly loves her mother.) 

The Renarin scene is another great moment for her. She gets to choose between the world or her family and she picked family. (Insert F&F meme here). 

Another good scene that helps humanize her is that she just kills three bandits instead of using her influence to investigate the street and arresting them. This is something she did that I disagreed with fundamentally but you end up running in circles when you try to say what she did was 100% wrong. She knows what she's about however, I don't agree with how certain she is about her actions. It makes her feel more real to me as, people often challenge you in the places where you least expect differences. If that makes any sense. 

I would have more problems if I didn't know she was going to be a POV in the back 5 but I'm content on being somewhat distant from her character atm because she isn't the focus yet. 

I forgot, I love this little detail and it is always brought up. The mutual respect between Jasnah and Dalinar is great.

Though I don't really like how Dalinar complains in his head about how Jasnah handled Ruthar. However, I think apart of this is how much closer Dalinar is getting to Honor and him over-reacting to other people, like Adolin, because he fears for the worst possible outcome of him reverting to how he was. 

The medicine is another small detail, that helps me like her as well. We see how busy she is but she still finds time to make medicine for people.

[Theoryspren]

I love her character as a whole. She is so strong and puts most of the other characters to shame. 

But the other reason I really love her is because Brandon Sanderson has confirmed she is asexual, I also identify as asexual so any time I see any ace character I immediately love them because we get so little representation in media and the like so having an ace character in books as popular as the Stormlight Archive books makes me so happy. He could of course do a much better job representing her asexuality and she is a bit stereotypical of an ace character to how most people imagine we are. And some are like her, but most of us are super romantic and awsome, except for AroAce (Just the romantic part because AroAce people are also some of the most awsome, most fun, people ever) folks but we know she isn't AroAce because of Rhythm of War and her thing with Wit so I find it a bit insulting occasionally but still, in general, I absolutly love it.

[Medium]

Oooooo fun thread

Honestly, I've had fun with Jasnah, I think she's a fantastic character. And the first thing I say to anyone about her is "Empathy of a rock" (Idk if this is the true quote from Navani or whoever said it, but if you know, you know), because that's how she be! It's been hilarious reading about her, and while she does have the empathy of a rock, she also believes in second chances, but only where she deems them to be worthwhile. Thankfully, Jasnah Kholin is a genius, so her opinion makes a lot of sense.

 

[Letryx13]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:55 PM, HSuperLee said:

Alright, I figure this is probably the post that will make me hated on this forum and shunned for life, but this has been an issue for me for a while so I'd like to see if it can be resolved. I don't get why a vast majority of the commentary and opinions I see on Jasnah are so positive. I honestly can't remember a time I've seen someone not like Jasnah. But to be honest, that's how I feel about her, especially after her few chapters in Rhythm of War. This last book pushed me from generally disliking her to being actively annoyed during her chapters. So, I guess I'd like to know why everyone seems to be such big fans of her. I don't want to dislike her, especially since she'll apparently be the focus of one of the books in the back half of the series, and I'd prefer not to be super annoyed with a lot of that book. I considered using this thread to explain in detail why I don't like her, but I'm worried that has too much of a possibility of me turning this thread into a rant, which I'd like to avoid. In general, I just find her unrealistically perfect and pretty much a Mary Sue as well as generally lacking in uniqueness and any really interesting qualities. So what is it y'all find interesting about her? What is it I am missing that really pulls her character into to the heights everyone else sees? I genuinely want to know.

I'm actually not much of a fan of her either.  The way she executed the bandits in WoK really frustrated me. Even more so when I found out exactly how powerful she is, since that meant she could have stopped them without killing them. She also showed how ruthless she is when she suggested killing the heralds to set up the oath pact again.  Logical perhaps, but also ruthless.

Although, to be fair, she can be entertaining at times. The chapter where she baits Ruthar into dueling her is probably my favorite chapter in RoW.

[Medium]

11 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I'm actually not much of a fan of her either.  The way she executed the bandits in WoK really frustrated me. Even more so when I found out exactly how powerful she is, since that meant she could have stopped them without killing them. She also showed how ruthless she is when she suggested killing the heralds to set up the oath pact again.  Logical perhaps, but also ruthless.

Although, to be fair, she can be entertaining at times. The chapter where she baits Ruthar into dueling her is probably my favorite chapter in RoW.

Oh wait, I forgot about the bandits. This event, and her attitude towards such a dark task, is very concerning. I'm unfamiliar with the Elsecaller oaths, but I do know she was already an Elsecaller at this point, so it could have been connected to that.

[Olmund]

I'm dropping into this thread a bit late, and I'll just say that while I appreciate Jasnah I do feel like she's destined to become a more divisive character in the future -- in part because so many fans worship her in her (relatively) static portrayal during the first half, and when she receives new character arcs in the back half I think many of us will have difficulty adjusting (unlike Shallan and Kaladin, who've been more variable since the start).

My wife appreciates Jasnah as the female power fantasy character she was in TWoK, but has liked her a bit less with each subsequent portrayal. I have a feeling that she will take it very hard if Jasnah has a mind-shattering moment like the traumatic end of Shallan's stint as Robin Hood in Alethkar. Personally, I'm aching to see Jasnah have that moment -- that sounds a bit creepy now that I type it out, but what I mean is I'd love to see Jasnah succeed at implementing a rational policy which results in catastrophic failure and immense suffering and she is eventually forced to recognize that she is a failure by her own utilitarian metrics.

To the TC's point, I actually agree that Jasnah is specifically tailored to many readers' modern views and I can see why some would find that distracting.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Olmund

[Tglassy]

My main issue with Jasnah is that I study philosophy and religion, and I can't argue with her, because she's a book character.  In WoK, when T and Shallan were discussing religion with her?  I HATE that scene.  Because I've studied this.  

 

My other problem with her is that she believes she is so much smarter than everyone else, but I see glaring holes in her philosophies.  We only got to see her discuss 'religion' or philosophy with T on a bad day, and with Shallan, who is devout but still just a student.  And she has a small condescending conversation with an Ardent who is obviously not her equal.  So we get to see her show off her supposed intellect in front of people who can't actually match her.  We don't get to see if her arguments would hold water against someone who knew what they were talking about.  We're just told they do.  And by inference, we're shown that she's 'so much greater than everyone else'.  Every time someone mentions her, it's to talk about how perfect she is.  "She never had the sense to be wrong an appropriate amount of the time."  "In order to practice apologizing, you would have to sometimes be wrong."  These statements irk me. They aren't "Showing us" that Jasnah is always right.  They're "Telling us" that she's always right.  This is the author telling the reader how they need to view Jasnah.  She's beautiful, poised, elegant, brilliant, and all these things so much more than anyone else.  We will make sure everyone who's ever met her will comment on how wonderful, brilliant, poised, elegant and beautiful she is.  Oh, and she's also counterculture, but is such a powerful woman, because she can project power so easily, that nobody, not the church nor the other nobility, can touch her, because she's Jasnah.  Also, all of her "Counterculture" is only in that her philosophies fit comfortably in 21st century rhetoric, but would be considered counter culture in a medieval world.  So she's actually the most Progressive person on the planet.  

Oh.  Wait.  We made her too perfect.  Oh I know.  We'll make her acerbic.  Yes.  She's so perfect she has a hard time relating with people, because everyone is a dullard compared to her, and so her main flaw will be that she is condescending to people.  She's such a brilliant, perfect person that anyone who hates her is actually just wrong, and that's why they hate her.  Everyone who realizes she's right loves her, and those who love her but don't believe she's right will respect her for her brilliance, beauty, elegance and poise. 

 

This is what is meant by a Mary Sue.  A Character who's only flaw is that people don't like her for how perfect she is.  They can fly the Enterprise better than Chekov, treat medical conditions better than McCoy, understand complex science and logic better than Spock and could lead the Enterprise better than Kirk, but doesn't because they have too much class.  (Men can be Mary Sue's, too.  It's called Gary Stu, I believe).  

Despite all this, I don't DISLIKE Jasnah.  She serves an important role in the plot.  But my favorite scenes are when she's brought down somehow.  When Shallan confronts her about her fake soulcaster.  When Kaladin verbally spars with her.  When she arrives at Uruthiru and realizes the focal point of her entire life passed her by without her help (finding Uruthiru and stopping the Parshmen from becoming Voidbringers.)  But even in those things, she was right and everyone who didn't believe her was stupid.  About everything.  Everything.  

I realize that Dalinar is ALSO right about many things, but the difference is that people don't believe Dalinar about the return of the Voidbringers because of his past.  He was a warmonger, someone who destroyed everything he touched and reveled in it, and even he thought he was going insane.  The monarchs of the various countries didn't believe him because they didn't trust him because of his past mistakes.  

Jasnah is not liked by people in the book because...she is too perfect and is right about everything and they don't like that.  Literally, that's it.  She's a heretic, but she happens to be right about this heresy, so all who disagree are fools.  Others don't like her because she's got a soulcaster...except she doesn't, she is just so awesome she can soulcast on her own. She has no flaws, but people hate her.  

[Olmund]

@Tglassy, I think you've just described why I'm looking forward to her (possible) low extremes in the back half. It is true that people often forget about the "moral rectitude" aspect of the Mary Sue trope, and instead apply that label to any character they dislike who has "overwhelming power and/or skills" (often with the caveat that they feel the power/skills are "unearned"). I'd argue that virtue plays a much stronger role than power/ability in making the character an attractive self-insert, so that's why I think it's strange that morality is often overlooked when tossing around the Mary Sue/Gary Stu epithet.

I do think that being acerbic and (often) heartless gives Jasnah enough moral complexity that I haven't grown weary of her "perfection," though as I said before I can see how her obviously modern views could be distracting (or even annoying) to some. Giving a powerful voice to those modern views isn't the only way Brandon caters to his audience (I feel like he's gone way overboard in several payoff moments involving Kaladin, for example), but that's definitely what's happening here. I have enough faith in Brandon to brave the ire of Jasnah fans when giving her character arcs in the later books (by actually challenging her views and such), but I agree that if he fails to do that it will be a huge disservice to the character.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

What I don't like about Jasnah is that she is too perfect and is revered by everyone in the series and too special.

For other characters like kal, Dalinar and shallan, they doubt themselves a lot and have insecurities and I really love them for that.

Jasnah doesn't seem to have much insecurities, so I can't understand what she is thinking and I like being in a character's head

And everyone thinks Jasnah is perfect and unique.

Hoid has never met an asexual person? Really?

Navani and Ivory think she is perfect?? Your mother and your therapist ( spren are like therapists right?) who have prolly seen you at your worst think that you are perfect? Navani actively compares herself to Jasnah and that's just wrong.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Hoid has never met an asexual person? Really?

It doesn't neccesarily mean that he's never met, one, just doesn't understand to the point he thinks it's funny.

17 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Your mother and your therapist ( spren are like therapists right?)

Not really.

17 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Navani actively compares herself to Jasnah and that's just wrong.

What's wrong with that? If you think someone is better than you at something you want to improve in, trying to emulate them can help you, whether they are younger than you or not.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

What I don't like about Jasnah is that she is too perfect and is revered by everyone in the series and too special.

For other characters like kal, Dalinar and shallan, they doubt themselves a lot and have insecurities and I really love them for that.

We have very few pov chapters from Jasnah but even then she's flawed and has aspects of herself she's unhappy with. When she's frustrated with her combat skills, Hoid rather heavily lays on that it is unreasonable for her to compare herself to someone who's spent their whole life fighting. 

If all I got for Kaladin was the same coverage we've had for Jasnah so far, I'd say Kaladin was a whiny Mary Sue considering his combat abilities, he's a trained surgeon, managed to turn a bunch of slaves into a powerful fighting force. He's liked and revered by everyone Etc etc etc. But we have pov from him so people aren't crying that he's a Mary Sue. People need to calm down on the Jasnah is 'perfect' line. 

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Jasnah doesn't seem to have much insecurities, so I can't understand what she is thinking and I like being in a character's head

Again, we don't have much in the way of pov yet. But just from the books out so far she clearly does have insecurities and anxieties. Her biggest is her obsession with protecting her family 

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

And everyone thinks Jasnah is perfect and unique.

Kaladin doesn't. Dalinar doesn't agree with her positions on multiple things. Shallan has issues with the way Jasnah does things. 

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Hoid has never met an asexual person? Really?

It shows that Hoid is just as liable to bias as anyone else.

1 hour ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Navani and Ivory think she is perfect?? Your mother and your therapist ( spren are like therapists right?) who have prolly seen you at your worst think that you are perfect? Navani actively compares herself to Jasnah and that's just wrong.

Navani is a whole mess of insecurities. Jasnah embodies many of the aspects that Navani considers ideal. Ivory likes her logical line of thinking compared to most other people on Roshar.

Ultimately, most of the arguments I've seen against Jasnah as a character are shallow in my opinion. They could be easily leveled on ANY other character. Kaladin is too perfect because of his skill (look at the crap he pulls off in Rhythm of War), Shallan is cringe, etc.

[Tglassy]

On 10/24/2021 at 6:39 PM, StanLemon said:

Ultimately, most of the arguments I've seen against Jasnah as a character are shallow in my opinion. They could be easily leveled on ANY other character. Kaladin is too perfect because of his skill (look at the crap he pulls off in Rhythm of War), Shallan is cringe, etc.

Kaladin has made mistakes throughout the books.  He was on his way to being a Mary Sue in the first chapter, and then failed to protect everyone for months.  He got people killed over and over.  He was a slave.  Nobody would listen to him.  Nobody cared about him.  He had to overcome his own inner depression in order to be the character he became.  He had to WORK.  That's not a Mary Sue.  A Mary Sue wouldn't have had to struggle.  Kaladin has one big talent: his fighting ability.  He's not a surgeon, just apprenticed, and so would not make much more than a field medic.  Sure, that's more than most people, but hardly Mary Sue level.  A Mary Sue would have reinvented surgery and not only been the greatest fighter who ever lived, but also the greatest surgeon, managing open heart bypass surgery while on the battlefield defending against the army by himself.  Having a great talent doesn't make a character a Mary Sue.  Having EVERY talent and also having the moral high ground against everybody and having every advantage (beauty, brains, grace, poise, etc) while having no flaws other than being hated for being better than everyone else is what makes them a Mary Sue. And Jasnah fits that to a T.

Shallan is far from perfect in any capacity.  She fails left and right.  In the beginning, she barely succeeded at anything.  She was dismissed by important people, but in reality wouldn't have been able to add anything even if she wasn't.  She got training from talented people, and used the advice to make herself better, but she screwed up more often than not and actually had to work for her accomplishments.  Jasnah, on the other hand, was "correcting Nevani's grammer at the age of 6".  She is never wrong, about anything.  She is right about the Almigjhty, right about Urithiru, right about the Parshmen, right about the Oathgates, right about...well, just about everything.  And the entire scholarly community across Roshar thought each of those was ridiculous, and persecuted her for it.  If everyone would have JUST listened to her from the beginning, the entire would would be a better place.  Slaves would be freed, the parshmen would be dealt with (possibly dead) and so there would be no Desolation, everything would be perfect.  

 

The main difference between a Mary Sue and a non Mary Sue, I think, is whether or not the character actually struggles to succeed, and not just against those who don't like them.  But actually struggle, fail, and rise again to overcome their limitations.  Mary Sue's don't do that.  They're just right, about everything, all the time.  They don't have to work hard.  Everything in life comes naturally.  They don't make mistakes.  They are always proven correct.  They always have the moral high ground.  On the surface, the end result off many protagonists look like Mary Sue's.  They're powerful, dominating, and often in the right.  But that's after a long career being wrong "An appropriate amount of time", which Jasnah is not, according to her mother.  

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

She is right about the Almigjhty,

*Almighty

And that's a matter of debate, Dalinar would say she was wrong, for example.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

The main difference between a Mary Sue and a non Mary Sue, I think, is whether or not the character actually struggles to succeed, and not just against those who don't like them.  But actually struggle, fail, and rise again to overcome their limitations.  Mary Sue's don't do that.  They're just right, about everything, all the time.  They don't have to work hard.  Everything in life comes naturally.  They don't make mistakes.  They are always proven correct.  They always have the moral high ground.  On the surface, the end result off many protagonists look like Mary Sue's.  They're powerful, dominating, and often in the right.  But that's after a long career being wrong "An appropriate amount of time", which Jasnah is not, according to her mother.  

You mean the woman who picks a fight with an interstellar mafia boss and gets skewered through the chest? Or who thinks that it is a good idea to antagonize every slave owner among her allies in the middle of a war? Or who makes large parts of the nobility and the church detest her rule? Who happily aided the man who wanted to sacrifice her and her whole family?

Now from her view point she made the experience that she alone knew best for the simple reason that she saw the truth nobody else could see. And we can take that absolutely literally thanks to her mastery of Soulcasting.

Granted most of her failures take place off screen or are building up for the future. Though that means saying that Words of Radiance and Oathbringer were too short. You see the problem? Secondly she seems so good because many of the things she advocates and works for are building blocks of enlightenment, which are accepted unquestioned as good without regard for any other consideration.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Tglassy said:

The main difference between a Mary Sue and a non Mary Sue, I think, is whether or not the character actually struggles to succeed, and not just against those who don't like them.  But actually struggle, fail, and rise again to overcome their limitations.  Mary Sue's don't do that.  They're just right, about everything, all the time.  They don't have to work hard.  Everything in life comes naturally.  They don't make mistakes.  They are always proven correct.  They always have the moral high ground.  On the surface, the end result off many protagonists look like Mary Sue's.  They're powerful, dominating, and often in the right.  But that's after a long career being wrong "An appropriate amount of time", which Jasnah is not, according to her mother.  

Continuing what Oltux72 said, you mean the person who failed in her goal to stop the Dessolation from happening? Got sidelined for an entire book only to find out all the effort she put into her work was for nothing? Had to struggle with the idea that Renarin needed to die because she was convinced he was a pawn of the enemy? Turned out to be wrong on that front and couldn't bring herself to kill him because he was family even though even he thought he needed to die? Advocated speciecide which she was promptly called out on by Kaladin? Seems your arguments that Jasnah always succeeds, is always morally right, etc fall flat. Frankly, while other characters might put her on a pedestal and say she is always right or accomplish anything, in the books themselves by no means show that to be true. 

Edit: people are welcome to not like her, as they are welcome to not like any character. Jasnah doesn't even hit my top ten characters I like in Stormlight, but to say she's a Mary Sue without flaws is laughable. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by StanLemon

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Tglassy said:

On the surface, the end result off many protagonists look like Mary Sue's.  They're powerful, dominating, and often in the right.  But that's after a long career being wrong "An appropriate amount of time", which Jasnah is not, according to her mother.  

One more thing, you count Jasnah alone. That's most likely wrong. She is bonded to a spren from a species and culture long known for scholarship and that for decades.

4 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Edit: people are welcome to not like her, as they are welcome to not like any character. Jasnah doesn't even hit my top ten characters I like in Stormlight, but to say she's a Mary Sue without flaws is laughable. 

Well, the criticism that she is never seen fail is valid.

EDIT:
To be precise we never see her experience her failure herself. We see that she has failed to prevent the Everstorm. To her that was a failure. We see her notice that she basically wasted years of research. But that we rarely to never see her present when she fails. Her being a researcher and a queen that is not unrealistic given her goals.
That is a justified criticism. I would go as far as saying that cutting the scene of Jasnah fleeing to Shadesmar was an error.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Oltux72
failure to think argument through

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

To be precise we never see her experience her failure herself. We see that she has failed to prevent the Everstorm. To her that was a failure. We see her notice that she basically wasted years of research. But that we rarely to never see her present when she fails. Her being a researcher and a queen that is not unrealistic given her goals.
That is a justified criticism. I would go as far as saying that cutting the scene of Jasnah fleeing to Shadesmar was an error.

I agree that cutting that scene was a mistake. When I first read it I wished it was in the book proper.

But we haven't seen much of her failure because frankly we haven't seen much of her. Most reference to her in the books are through the lens of another character. And her viewpoints we do get show that she's not the same person those characters think her to be.

To hammer in my point, if we barely got viewpoints from Kaladin and just got other characters views of him, it would look like he was a Mary Sue who was simply given an angst ridden backstory. He'd be too perfect to people if we never saw the struggles he went through. After all, he managed to turn a rag tag group of slaves into the good guys primary fighting force, has combat skills that are so natural to him that he can face off against enemies with literally millenia of fighting experience without most of his powers and win. Characters look up to him and idealise him. And I could go on.

Both him and Jasnah are exceptionally skilled characters, the big difference though is one is a major viewpoint character and the other hasn't been yet. 

Arguments that she is a Mary Sue have repeatedly been strawman in nature. The reality presented in the books is that she's clearly more enlightened than most of the other characters because she is intelligent, well educated, and can look beyond her society and look at what works for other societies and compare them to her own. But she's that way for a clear reason rather than just because. She's a skilled Radiant because she's got the better part of a decade on the other Radiants. She's not 'perfect' or 'always right' as people like to complain. I return to the aforementioned speciecide she proposed. Despite being critical of Vorin custom, she still follows several aspects of it that aren't logical. I felt the whole point of her planning to kill Renarin was to show she isn't always right, and to show that she's human because even when she thinks it's for the betterment of the world, she loves her family and can't go through with it. Ultimately she is flawed. 

[+Child of Hodor]

She's hot, she's smart, she cares deeply about her family. She challenges the status quo. She loves intellectual debate. She's a loner, Dottie, a rebel! ... Also, she's hot. 

 

[Frustration]

Janah is a side character until back five, please stop excpecting her to hold up to the main cast, thank you.

[HSuperLee]

Apparently my little thread has been seeing more and more activity as of late. I don't know why, as it has revealed most people (myself included) hold their respective passions about Jasnah quite strongly. So I guess at this time I'll just ask that everyone try to be respectful if this discussion is going to continue. I understand people genuinely care about this issue for different reasons, and some of them deeply personal ones, so I won't ridicule anyone for mounting an emotional defense of their position, and I ask others do the same. But that said, I also want to clarify, there are technically two different discussions that could occur here: do people like Jasnah or do they think she's a well-written character. The two have some overlap, but the thread was started more with the former in mind, as the latter seems like little more than seeds for bitter and viscous argument. Granted, I'm not actually in-charge of this thread, and it will go where it goes, but that was the original intent of the discussion.

All that said, I don't really intend to say much more, as I've said as much about my opinion on Jasnah as I'm publicly willing to say already, but I will be keeping tabs on this thread, since I bear at least a little responsibility for it as its creator. Have fun in the discussion y'all. May it be intelligent, sober-minded, and valuable.

 

[Meg]

At first on topic, I don't have problems with Jasnah. I like her, her "high ideals" (literally, as I understand her wanting to be good at all she wants to learn), and I like that she has weak moments, too.
She isn't a character who I respond emotionally to. And this is good. As a reader I can't relate to every character. Also I don't think it's the intention of an author to write stories about people and worlds where any reader can relate to any character.

Now off topic (kind of). In a way each of those "love" or "hate" threads makes me wonder. I have participated on one or more, I admit. I can kind of understand when the posts are about emotions that a character evokes (best examples might be Kaladin and Shallan).

But contentwise discussions about fictional (!) characters and events, set in fully fictional l worlds (or cosmeres ;)) seem obsolete to me.

I want to explicitly state that I don't want to offend anybody neither in this thread nor in some other thread.