Windrunners 5th Oath

[WandererNearby]

I personally like the idea that Kaladin's oath will lean into his history as a surgeon and that he's interested in helping the mentally ill now. Plus, he's going to be hanging out with Szeth next book and has to finish his struggle with Moash. Both of them have some mental illness struggles (citation needed) and it makes sense that his oath would deal with that. I would suggest an oath like:

I will protect everyone I can, even after the battle has been fought. 

This has a few strengths to me:

1. It has the benefit of something he has been doing since book 1 (taking care of Dabbid) and was intentionally brought up in Book 4. 

2. It has real world examples that Brandon could follow in Chris Kyle. I don't if anyone hear has read his biography or seen the movie American Sniper but Chris was a phenomenal Navy Seal sniper who struggled mightily with PTSD after retirement from the military. He found peace in helping other wounded veterans cope with their PTSD and died doing that. 

3. Kaladin's arc and the Windrunners in general aren't about leadership to me. They're both about protection. 

4. It would be a good contrast with Nale's super arrogant oath of "I am the law.". It's my personal opinion that Nale's fifth oath will become a point of critique and that Kaladin's fifth oath will be a much more well-rounded oath. 

5. It fits thematically because SA has a big theme of mental illness. A mentally ill main character swearing an oath about helping other mentally ill people makes sense. 

[drunkenbotanist]

My feeling was that the 5th oath is less about self -awareness and more something that is almost counter-intuitive to the previous oaths. A couple people have also posted something along these lines.

 

Achieving the 5th level is supposed to be very rare and difficult. I see the "becoming the law" bit of the skybreakers as functionality opposite the rest of the oaths, but part of the what makes swearing that oath so difficult for a skybreakers is they have to accept the clear limits of the law and how sometimes they have to be *above the law* to be just

 

I've been thinking the windrunner 5th oath is about either accepting that protecting someone is actively harmful or could deprive them of deserved accountability (or murder I dunno roshar is a harsh place), and it could be about accepting that he can't kill moash to protect others, or protect moash to try to save him, but he has to leave him in whatever situation he gets himself into. 

But whatever it is, not accepting that he can fail -his 4th oath already was "there are some I can't protect"

But "there are some I shouldn't protect no matter how much I want to"

Accepting that sometimes protection should be withdrawn, like he has to let Dalinar die or something

 

I feel like it the 5th ideal being something intuitively opposite for that specific person/order would be a good reason for why no one has reached the 5th ideal for a really long time. Like kaladin could easily say the 5th ideal of the skybreakers, but it would be very rare for a skybreaker to decide that their judgments can be extralegal.

 

Just a guess!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 2/17/2021 at 1:36 PM, mathiau said:

From what the Highspren said about the Skybreaker's 5th oath, I think the Windrunners' 5th oath will either be both about Protecting and Leading, I like the "I'll teach other how to protect" idea but it seems contradicted by the fact Windrunners get squires at the 3rd oath

I love that one sooo much

Contradicts Kal's character development. Remember before the battle of Thaylen Field he could not hurt people without the "us" and "them" rationalisation

If any order have an oath telling to hurt no one it'll be the Edgedancers (remember, the actual Radiants medics) and it doesn't seems like they will

Recognizing that there are times he shouldn’t protect/respecting the decisions of those who choose not to be protected.

Kaladin’s accepted that he can’t protect everyone, but ends that with “but I can still save THIS one.” So I think his next Oath will acknowledge that there are those he can protect - but shouldn’t, because doing so violates their right to CHOOSE.

[Zanarkand]

 

On 2/24/2021 at 6:51 PM, drunkenbotanist said:

My feeling was that the 5th oath is less about self -awareness and more something that is almost counter-intuitive to the previous oaths. A couple people have also posted something along these lines.

 

Achieving the 5th level is supposed to be very rare and difficult. I see the "becoming the law" bit of the skybreakers as functionality opposite the rest of the oaths, but part of the what makes swearing that oath so difficult for a skybreakers is they have to accept the clear limits of the law and how sometimes they have to be *above the law* to be just

 

I've been thinking the windrunner 5th oath is about either accepting that protecting someone is actively harmful or could deprive them of deserved accountability (or murder I dunno roshar is a harsh place), and it could be about accepting that he can't kill moash to protect others, or protect moash to try to save him, but he has to leave him in whatever situation he gets himself into. 

But whatever it is, not accepting that he can fail -his 4th oath already was "there are some I can't protect"

But "there are some I shouldn't protect no matter how much I want to"

Accepting that sometimes protection should be withdrawn, like he has to let Dalinar die or something

 

I feel like it the 5th ideal being something intuitively opposite for that specific person/order would be a good reason for why no one has reached the 5th ideal for a really long time. Like kaladin could easily say the 5th ideal of the skybreakers, but it would be very rare for a skybreaker to decide that their judgments can be extralegal.

 

Just a guess!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm also thinking along these lines. My feeling is that the 5th ideal is about sacrificing a few to save many. Kind of like Spock's: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Whereas the 4th ideal is about passive acceptance that you can't save everyone, I think the 5th ideal will emphasize agency, choosing to let some die in order to achieve a higher purpose.

[mathiau]

On 25/02/2021 at 3:51 AM, drunkenbotanist said:

Achieving the 5th level is supposed to be very rare and difficult.

Do we know if it's actually true of if in that only applies to current day Skybreakers?

Quote

I see the "becoming the law" bit of the skybreakers as functionality opposite the rest of the oaths, but part of the what makes swearing that oath so difficult for a skybreakers is they have to accept the clear limits of the law and how sometimes they have to be *above the law* to be just

Current day Skybreakers would agree, I'd say they just don't understand their oaths

On 25/02/2021 at 4:16 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Recognizing that there are times he shouldn’t protect/respecting the decisions of those who choose not to be protected.

Kaladin’s accepted that he can’t protect everyone, but ends that with “but I can still save THIS one.” So I think his next Oath will acknowledge that there are those he can protect - but shouldn’t, because doing so violates their right to CHOOSE.

I still think it's included in the 4th Oath but it's possible

9 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

I'm also thinking along these lines. My feeling is that the 5th ideal is about sacrificing a few to save many. Kind of like Spock's: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

Whereas the 4th ideal is about passive acceptance that you can't save everyone, I think the 5th ideal will emphasize agency, choosing to let some die in order to achieve a higher purpose.

Er... wouldn't that contradict the Ideal of Radiance?

[Aglaia]

I tend to agree with those who argue that the oath is related to “deciding who not to protect”.

But from a different angle.

Every ideal Kaladin has sworn to date has been associated with some internal conflict.

2. keep trying to protect, in spite of the consequences this has brought for him so far.

3. hate towards lighteyes / protect those he hates

4. dealing with failure / accepting it.

 

All of these conflicts are already laid out in WoK. In my opinion, the remaining conflict is whether one can kill in order to protect.

It's not as big a problem for him as the 4th oath, but it's still a question he asks. So for me it makes sense that the fifth ideal is related to that.

[Bejarden]

How ‘bout

”I will kill those I love to protect even those I hate”

I don’t think this is what it will be but it does fit

[Zanarkand]

12 hours ago, mathiau said:

Er... wouldn't that contradict the Ideal of Radiance?

I didn't mean it like that. More like when you can't save everyone, you need to choose who to save in order to do the most good sort of thing. Not like Taravangian would do, i.e. doing evil for the sake of a "good" end.

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, Zanarkand said:

I didn't mean it like that. More like when you can't save everyone, you need to choose who to save in order to do the most good sort of thing. Not like Taravangian would do, i.e. doing evil for the sake of a "good" end.

Then it's already in the 4th Ideal

[Quivil]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:27 PM, JustOneMoreQuesiton said:

I'm wondering if the 5th oath has to do with forgiveness, or perhaps recognizing when someone is too far gone? 

Protecting those you hate is not the same as forgiving them, and the main thread left for Kal's character arc is Moash.  We've pretty heavily plumbed the depths of Kal's revenge, so i'm hoping that's not the goal for yet another book, even though that's the clear setup with Moash.  Either way i suspect whatever the words are will relate to that.  Could somehow be "others can protect themselves" if moash starts going after bridge 4 instead of Kal, but he's almost certainly got to be pivotal to it.

This made me think of lawmen in the Roughs going after those of their own who had gone bad. Going after them with more focus (is that the right word?) than just any old criminal.

Yes, it's their job to keep crime in the Roughs down. It's more their job to watch out for the other lawmen and get rid of them if they start "cackling" (word stolen from Terry Prachett. Sorry. I couldn't think of a better way to describe it.)

 

The 5th oath might be something like that. Realizing when someone needs to be eliminated, not protected, even if you are deeply connected to them and stuff.

Like Wax killing Lessie. (<< Mistborn spoiler, 2nd arc, end of 2nd book)

[Forms of mind]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:56 AM, Gneorndin said:

This made me think of lawmen in the Roughs going after those of their own who had gone bad. Going after them with more focus (is that the right word?) than just any old criminal.

Yes, it's their job to keep crime in the Roughs down. It's more their job to watch out for the other lawmen and get rid of them if they start "cackling" (word stolen from Terry Prachett. Sorry. I couldn't think of a better way to describe it.)

 

The 5th oath might be something like that. Realizing when someone needs to be eliminated, not protected, even if you are deeply connected to them and stuff.

Like Wax killing Lessie. (<< Mistborn spoiler, 2nd arc, end of 2nd book)

I like the idea but i do not know if it is honorable. When adolin assinated sadeas dalinar and kaladin both saw it as wrong. There was a scene where dalinar talks to adolin before he goes to shadesmar. If Dalinar, who holds the most of the shard honor, has such a bad reaction then I cant imagine that both kal and syl will be okay with executing moash. Kal has more a paternal vibe. 

[Quivil]

31 minutes ago, Forms of mind said:

I like the idea but i do not know if it is honorable. When adolin assinated sadeas dalinar and kaladin both saw it as wrong. There was a scene where dalinar talks to adolin before he goes to shadesmar. If Dalinar, who holds the most of the shard honor, has such a bad reaction then I cant imagine that both kal and syl will be okay with executing moash. Kal has more a paternal vibe. 

Moash went bad. Sadeas didnt. Lawmen hunt gone-bad lawmen with more focus than they hunt just any criminal with.

And assassination is just generally wrong.

And Sadeas wasn't actively working with Rayse (that I know, please correct me if Im wrong)

[Quick Ben]

I have said this in a previous thread,

But i believe the 5th ideal of the windrunners will be - "i will protect myself above/before others" 

 

[mathiau]

32 minutes ago, Gneorndin said:

And Sadeas wasn't actively working with Rayse (that I know, please correct me if Im wrong)

Sadeas wasn't actively working with Rayse, just against the only force with any chance to beat Odium

[Bejarden]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:16 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Recognizing that there are times he shouldn’t protect/respecting the decisions of those who choose not to be protected.

Kaladin’s accepted that he can’t protect everyone, but ends that with “but I can still save THIS one.” So I think his next Oath will acknowledge that there are those he can protect - but shouldn’t, because doing so violates their right to CHOOSE.

My only problem with this is that Kaladin does not really struggle with this.

He let’s the Windrunners fight without him. And he never tries to stop people from fighting

It doesn’t seem to fit his character growth.

6 hours ago, Quick Ben said:

I have said this in a previous thread,

But i believe the 5th ideal of the windrunners will be - "i will protect myself above/before others" 

 

I really don’t like this. It feels incredibly selfish. This Oath would mean that Kaladin should never fight and never help, because this would be slightly detrimental to him as it could result in emotional strain or damage.

There is no problem with being selfless and wanting to give it your all.

Your friends are who should be helping you. Not you taking an Oath that you are the priority.

Someone said something like this previously in this thread and it is very similar to yours, “ I will let myself be protected” which I think would fit better with his character. 

And I’ve already givin my own opinion to many times to repeat it

[Halyo_Alex]

2 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

“ I will let myself be protected”

This.

[Quick Ben]

10 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

My only problem with this is that Kaladin does not really struggle with this.

He let’s the Windrunners fight without him. And he never tries to stop people from fighting

It doesn’t seem to fit his character growth.

I really don’t like this. It feels incredibly selfish. This Oath would mean that Kaladin should never fight and never help, because this would be slightly detrimental to him as it could result in emotional strain or damage.

There is no problem with being selfless and wanting to give it your all.

Your friends are who should be helping you. Not you taking an Oath that you are the priority.

Someone said something like this previously in this thread and it is very similar to yours, “ I will let myself be protected” which I think would fit better with his character. 

And I’ve already givin my own opinion to many times to repeat it

Think we may of discussed this before ? 

But i don't see how that is even remotely selfish, 

1. Doesn't just apply in a combat sense, can apply to the radiants mental state. As we see with Kaladin, hes ability to protect people is severly compromised by his mental state, when/if he learns to protect himself he will be more effective protecting others. And protecting himself begun with the 4th ideal, so seems a natural progression.

Windrunners are driven to protect at there own expense, and especially Kaladin, makes perfect sense for the 5th ideal to be about protecting themselves, .

2. In a comabt sense, the longer he is around the more people he can protect in the long run, and he isn't a stoneward (prone to last stands) 

[Bejarden]

1 hour ago, Quick Ben said:

Think we may of discussed this before ? 

But i don't see how that is even remotely selfish, 

1. Doesn't just apply in a combat sense, can apply to the radiants mental state. As we see with Kaladin, hes ability to protect people is severly compromised by his mental state, when/if he learns to protect himself he will be more effective protecting others. And protecting himself begun with the 4th ideal, so seems a natural progression.

Windrunners are driven to protect at there own expense, and especially Kaladin, makes perfect sense for the 5th ideal to be about protecting themselves, .

2. In a comabt sense, the longer he is around the more people he can protect in the long run, and he isn't a stoneward (prone to last stands) 

I can never remember what I have or haven’t discussed before.

1: But if your all about to protecting yourself and you even swear an Oath on it, why would you then also protect others. If you are the priority then there is a problem.

2: Not if his Oath commands him to leave forever because of the inherent risk of war. 

You can be pro protecting others and not pro last stands

 

[Quick Ben]

4 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I can never remember what I have or haven’t discussed before.

1: But if your all about to protecting yourself and you even swear an Oath on it, why would you then also protect others. If you are the priority then there is a problem.

2: Not if his Oath commands him to leave forever because of the inherent risk of war. 

You can be pro protecting others and not pro last stands

 

You are taking it to extremes.

1. A 5th ideal windrunner can protect themselves while protecting others, its more about know when to withdraw and not keep going to the point you compromise yourself in the process

2. Same as above really, 

The point is to know your limits and to protect yourself to enable you to protect others better

[Harkain]

Honestly, I like the idea of the 5th oath being to some extent accepting that your oaths aren't gonna be perfect. Sorta coming back to the whole journey before destination idea, the oaths aren't your destination but rather represent your journey along the way. With your 5th oath representing accepting that you'll never be able to achieve your perfect ideal but that you should keep trying anyway. It's about the journey of saying your oaths, rather than the oaths themselves.

So for Skybreakers, their oaths seem to be finding some set of rules that outlines what's wrong and what's right. There second oath decides on trying to figure out justice, their 3rd oath is deciding on what set of rules they're gonna follow and then their 4th oath is testing those rules. The Fifth Oath is about realising that no matter what, there will never be a perfect system of justice but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive towards justice anyway. You need to become justice rather than passing off the obligation to something else. 

Applying a similar logic to Windrunners. Their second oath is deciding they're going to try and protect people, the third oath is about realising if you're going to protect people you have to protect everyone, the fourth oath is about accepting that sometimes you're going to fail to protect people. So now the 5th oath would be something that sorta invalidates the whole ideal of protecting people but also deciding that you're going to try and keep protecting people regardless. I could see it as maybe "I will accept that people do not want to be protected" or maybe "I will accept that it is not always right to protect"?

You could also apply it to a Lightweavers final truth being that their is no inherent truth within them. That they are just who they are and there's nothing more to it. I could imagine a "We are Shallan" moment being pretty cool for Shallan in the future. 

This is just made theorising but I just thought of the idea and I like it. 

EDIT: Just realised can bring in the "Honour lives in the hearts of men" thing as well. There is no perfect objective concept of honour but in sentient species you can find the resolution to that. You find something that can be honourable despite the very concept being filled with holes and contradictions. If the 5th oath is about accepting the flaws of your oaths then a 5th ideal radiant's would embody the idea of honour more than any definition.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Harkain

[drunkenbotanist]

On 2/26/2021 at 3:23 PM, mathiau said:

Do we know if it's actually true of if in that only applies to current day Skybreakers?

It fits thematically with the oaths becoming more and more difficult because of more and more responsibility, less restrictions on powers, more danger for the spren

So we don't know 100% but it's probably safe to assume, and if not I still lean towards the fifth oath requiring a significant mental effort

Quote

Current day Skybreakers would agree, I'd say they just don't understand their oaths

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's not *really* contradictory, but if you're a skybreaker it's very difficult to understand why that is. This is what I meant by kaladin would have no problem with "becoming the law" but szeth really would say

Quote

 

 

I still think it's included in the 4th Oath but it's possible

 

I think the 4th oath was about accepting failure

 

Quote

 

Er... wouldn't that contradict the Ideal of Radiance?

We already know there's a lot of variability in how this can be applied even if it is the same for every order, dustbringers for example joining Odium

 

1 hour ago, Harkain said:

Honestly, I like the idea of the 5th oath being to some extent accepting that your oaths aren't gonna be perfect. Sorta coming back to the whole journey before destination idea, the oaths aren't your destination but rather represent your journey along the way. With your 5th oath representing accepting that you'll never be able to achieve your perfect ideal but that 

So for Skybreakers, their oaths seem to be finding some set of rules that outlines what's wrong and what's right. There second oath decides on trying to figure out justice, their 3rd oath is deciding on what set of rules they're gonna follow and then their 4th oath is testing those rules. The Fifth Oath is about realising that no matter what, there will never be a perfect system of justice but that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive towards justice anyway. You need to become justice rather than passing off the obligation to something else. 

Applying a similar logic to Windrunners. Their second oath is deciding they're going to try and protect people, the third oath is about realising if you're going to protect people you have to protect everyone, the fourth oath is about accepting that sometimes you're going to fail to protect people. So now the 5th oath would be something that sorta invalidates the whole ideal of protecting people but also deciding that you're going to try and keep protecting people regardless. I could see it as maybe "I will accept that people do not want to be protected" or maybe "I will accept that it is not always right to protect"?

You could also apply it to a Lightweavers final truth being that their is no inherent truth within them. That they are just who they are and there's nothing more to it. I could imagine a "We are Shallan" moment being pretty cool for Shallan in the future. 

This is just made theorising but I just thought of the idea and I like it. 

 

 

I really like the way you put this 

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by drunkenbotanist
to avoid doubleposting

[Elias]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:53 AM, Quick Ben said:

You are taking it to extremes.

1. A 5th ideal windrunner can protect themselves while protecting others, its more about know when to withdraw and not keep going to the point you compromise yourself in the process

2. Same as above really, 

The point is to know your limits and to protect yourself to enable you to protect others better

This is why George Washington won the American Revolution. He wasn't a brilliant strategist or tactician, winning battles by miraculous planning or zealous passion. His greatest skill was knowing when to cut your losses and withdraw, because past a certain point, it's more important to preserve your forces than continue fighting. And that's also been a big problem Kaladin struggles with: when to stop fighting and just let himself rest and heal.

Another option could be "I will accept the role of leadership", as Kal has many times felt uncomfortable with the notoriety and people looking up to him, and an essential part of being an effective military leader is to accept that you will lose people, which is what the 4th Ideal was about.