Stormgate

Windrunners 5th Oath

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1 hour ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

“I will not harm one to protect another.”

The first oath is the same for all radiants.

The second oath embodies the basic idea of the order. Windrunners will protect. Skybreakers will obey the law. Edgedancers will love/remember the unloved/forgotten.

The third oath is a “higher ideal” because it raises the bar from the second oath. Windrunners will not make exceptions to protection. Skybreakers literally phrase their third oath as the oath of “choosing a higher law” to follow. Edgedancers will not only remember (passive) but will listen (active).

The second and third oaths embody the first divine attribute of the order. And yes, I believe the Edgedancer oaths requires loving them as well, even if it’s not explicitly said.

The fourth oath involves moving on from the past. This is the weakest in my theory. Windrunners forgive themselves for inability. Skybreakers go on a quest to deal with something in their past. The completion allows them to move on from whatever the quest is about. Edgedancers help others move on from their past.

The fifth oath is similar to the third. It means obeying an even higher ideal. In fact, the highest possible for the order’s theme. Second oath is good, third is better, and fifth is best. However, the fifth ideal actually lightens the load of the radiant. Fifth oath examples:

Windrunners recognize that both sides of a conflict (human and voidbringer) need protection from each other. Windrunners choose not to protect someone in order to avoid doing the opposite to the other side. Windrunners will still protect people from natural disasters and anything else that isn’t caused by a different person. Windrunners will seek to end conflict in a way that protects both sides.

Skybreakers not only obey the law, they become the law. But by becoming the law, they can choose the law.

I’m not sure what the Edgedancer oath is.

The fourth and fifth oaths embody the second divine attribute. Windrunners accept their own inability, which is a major part of leadership. Also, by choosing not to protect, they instead dedicate their lives to leading other Windrunners and sending them to do the protecting. Skybreakers are confident now that they aren’t weighed down by their past. They are confident that they are correct because they embody the law, which they view as correct. Edgedancers heal others of negative aspects of their pasts.

The problem is Kaladins 4th oath has nothing to do with leadership, its about forgiving himself for failing to protect people (protecting himself). And the 4th skybreaker oath is not about confidence, its about proving to their spren they are seeking justice. To take this further, none of the else caller oaths will likely line up with wisdom or being careful (seeking potential) or distbringers self master is unliley to line up with bravery or obediance. The oaths are a progression of the orders ideal, for wind runners its about protection (including one self) for skybreakers its justice, every oath we have seen have a clear link to the corresponding orders ideal. A tentative ohh but by protecting himself kaladin can lead better, still makes the oath about protection.

Edited by Lemiltock
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On 12/4/2020 at 4:53 PM, Stormgate said:

Yesterday, I decided to try to make my best guess as to the 5th Oath of the Windrunners. 

The Second and Third are about when to protect, that is, protecting those who can't protect themselves, even if you hate them. The Fourth is, in part, when to stop protecting, or to accept that sometimes you can't. 

My thought is that the Fifth is when to stop protecting altogether, to let them protect themselves. I don't have much rationale behind this, just that, to me, it seems like the most appropriate next step. 

Thoughts? I am looking for support if you agree, or alternate ideas otherwise. 

I like it - teaching a man/woman to fish rather than just giving it to him/her.

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On 12/6/2020 at 8:57 AM, Aiken Frost said:

I think it's something along the lines of "I will also protect myself" because 1: a dead Windrunner protects no one and 2: so they can learn to not suffer from "martyr complex" and not throw themselves in front of dangers needlessly.

That, ironically, would make Teft "get" the 5th Ideal very quickly, if he had the chance and I was correct...

Teft already swore that as his third oath. Being unwilling to protect yourself is a hang up covered under the third oath.

I think the fifth is the acknowledgment that sometimes you SHOULD NOT protect.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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"I will stop the need for protection."

so far Kaladin is fighting the symptoms rather than the cause.
seeking an end to the war is better than protecting from its effects.

ending conflict instead of shielding individuals against it.

Edited by trav
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“I Will Protect Those Who Were Written to Be Protected”

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How about the fifth oath being about leadership in war and battle, like he accept that when leading men in battle some will die because he led them there and he will have to accept that and don't blame  him self for it or think he is the reason for it because of his leadership.

I think with him sowering the fourth oath he accept that sometimes he can't protect but that's different from blaming him self for being the leader who lead the men there.

So it might be something like this : 

I accept that some times I have to lead where others will follow rather than protecting.

I don't think o explained my idea very well (english is not my first language  sorry :D)

 

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"I accept that there will be people who refuse protection." [This one isn't phrased that well. See my third guess for the explanation.]

"I accept that I deserve protection." [I like this one, but I don't think this is likely. The progression follows a more worldly perspective.]

"I accept that other people make their own choices." [I didn't know how to phrase this in the context of protection, but it is basically the spirit of my first guess. People have autonomy and freedom to choose what they will, and it is not our place to decide if they are right. They chose, and we chose, and if we do not respect their choices, then we invalidate them, make them lesser in some fundamental way. They become not a person but an object, a trophy to be kept. It is not our place to do such a thing.]

"I accept that protection is not the only way." [Also poorly phrased. Protection is not the end-all be-all, and there are other ways that could be better and could be worse. We choose to protect, and others choose not to, and none of us are wrong and none of us are right. Life is not the end that we all meet but the choices we made to reach it, and we cannot judge another's journey when we ourselves are drenched in blood from all the choices that we made and all the choices that we didn't and all the right and all the wrong we did not do. We each chose a path, and we follow it to the end, wandering the maze of decisions we all meander through, stumbling blindly towards the same goal, hoping beyond hope that we will find the best way. There is no best way. There is simply the path, and the people we leave behind.]

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On 12/8/2020 at 9:52 PM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

“I will not harm one to protect another.”

The first oath is the same for all radiants.

The second oath embodies the basic idea of the order. Windrunners will protect. Skybreakers will obey the law. Edgedancers will love/remember the unloved/forgotten.

The third oath is a “higher ideal” because it raises the bar from the second oath. Windrunners will not make exceptions to protection. Skybreakers literally phrase their third oath as the oath of “choosing a higher law” to follow. Edgedancers will not only remember (passive) but will listen (active).

The second and third oaths embody the first divine attribute of the order. And yes, I believe the Edgedancer oaths requires loving them as well, even if it’s not explicitly said.

The fourth oath involves moving on from the past. This is the weakest in my theory. Windrunners forgive themselves for inability. Skybreakers go on a quest to deal with something in their past. The completion allows them to move on from whatever the quest is about. Edgedancers help others move on from their past.

The fifth oath is similar to the third. It means obeying an even higher ideal. In fact, the highest possible for the order’s theme. Second oath is good, third is better, and fifth is best. However, the fifth ideal actually lightens the load of the radiant. Fifth oath examples:

Windrunners recognize that both sides of a conflict (human and voidbringer) need protection from each other. Windrunners choose not to protect someone in order to avoid doing the opposite to the other side. Windrunners will still protect people from natural disasters and anything else that isn’t caused by a different person. Windrunners will seek to end conflict in a way that protects both sides.

Skybreakers not only obey the law, they become the law. But by becoming the law, they can choose the law.

I’m not sure what the Edgedancer oath is.

The fourth and fifth oaths embody the second divine attribute. Windrunners accept their own inability, which is a major part of leadership. Also, by choosing not to protect, they instead dedicate their lives to leading other Windrunners and sending them to do the protecting. Skybreakers are confident now that they aren’t weighed down by their past. They are confident that they are correct because they embody the law, which they view as correct. Edgedancers heal others of negative aspects of their pasts.

I like the first three oaths, but I think that the fourth oath is about applying your ideals in reality. Windrunners need to accept the reality that they cannot save everyone, Skybreakers go on a crusade to learn to apply their desire to do justice.

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8 hours ago, Gears said:

"I accept that there will be people who refuse protection." [This one isn't phrased that well. See my third guess for the explanation.]

"I accept that I deserve protection." [I like this one, but I don't think this is likely. The progression follows a more worldly perspective.]

"I accept that other people make their own choices." [I didn't know how to phrase this in the context of protection, but it is basically the spirit of my first guess. People have autonomy and freedom to choose what they will, and it is not our place to decide if they are right. They chose, and we chose, and if we do not respect their choices, then we invalidate them, make them lesser in some fundamental way. They become not a person but an object, a trophy to be kept. It is not our place to do such a thing.]

"I accept that protection is not the only way." [Also poorly phrased. Protection is not the end-all be-all, and there are other ways that could be better and could be worse. We choose to protect, and others choose not to, and none of us are wrong and none of us are right. Life is not the end that we all meet but the choices we made to reach it, and we cannot judge another's journey when we ourselves are drenched in blood from all the choices that we made and all the choices that we didn't and all the right and all the wrong we did not do. We each chose a path, and we follow it to the end, wandering the maze of decisions we all meander through, stumbling blindly towards the same goal, hoping beyond hope that we will find the best way. There is no best way. There is simply the path, and the people we leave behind.]

“I accept that there are times I should not protect.”

The ‘I deserve protection’ one is part of the third ideal; it was essentially the one Teft swore.

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"I will make a world that no longer needs my protection."

The Radiants of the 5th Ideal would be the paragons of their order. A 5th Ideal Windrunner can't be concerned with flying off to their hometown to save it from a storm. They need to train their squires and uplift them to be protectors of their own. They need to coordinate logistics, assign missions. Kaladin had been given this role preemptively, but was not ready to take it up.

Other ideas, considering that people may not want protection, I feel like is a Willshaper ideal. A Windrunner will save who they can first, and consider the consequences later. (Emphasis on can, though)

(Side note: I think that the 5th Ideal will let a Windrunner 'Ride the Storm' like Kaladin did once, as its boon)

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On 12/12/2020 at 11:11 PM, Prymalfire said:

Side note: I think that the 5th Ideal will let a Windrunner 'Ride the Storm' like Kaladin did once, as its boon)

Riding the storm seems to be a Bondsmith thing for the Stormfather Bondsmith. The only times someone besides Dalinar has ridden the storm has been when the Stormfather specifically chose them to. It has nothing to do with being a Windrunner.

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On 12/6/2020 at 4:27 PM, JustOneMoreQuesiton said:

I'm wondering if the 5th oath has to do with forgiveness, or perhaps recognizing when someone is too far gone? 

Protecting those you hate is not the same as forgiving them, and the main thread left for Kal's character arc is Moash.  We've pretty heavily plumbed the depths of Kal's revenge, so i'm hoping that's not the goal for yet another book, even though that's the clear setup with Moash.  Either way i suspect whatever the words are will relate to that.  Could somehow be "others can protect themselves" if moash starts going after bridge 4 instead of Kal, but he's almost certainly got to be pivotal to it.

I think you are right I think the 5th oath will have kaladin forgiving others who caused him harm. I think he will forgive moash.

 

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teft was forgiven. teft was forgiven and he was close

 

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7 hours ago, Forms of mind said:

I think you are right I think the 5th oath will have kaladin forgiving others who caused him harm. I think he will forgive moash.

I don't know if Kal blames Moash enough to forgive him in the first place.

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't know if Kal blames Moash enough to forgive him in the first place.

I think that he will forgive him anyway as the 5th oath is about forgiveness.

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10 hours ago, Forms of mind said:

I think you are right I think the 5th oath will have kaladin forgiving others who caused him harm. I think he will forgive moash.

 

 

I really hope there's an extremely good reason to forgive him for killing Teft in order to drive Kaladin to suicide. I don't think I would ever forgive someone who tried to make me commit suicide, let alone murdered someone I cared about to do it. Unless perhaps I'd been bitten by a zombie and was about to turn, but that's unlikely to happen (touch wood).

Edited by jamesbondsmith
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I think something along the lines of

"I will sacrifice myself to save many"

That would mean not many 5th ideal windrunners flying around though.

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6 minutes ago, Thaumium said:

I think something along the lines of

"I will sacrifice myself to save many"

That would mean not many 5th ideal windrunners flying around though.

That seems like the exact opposite of his entire arc up until this point, though.

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From what the Highspren said about the Skybreaker's 5th oath, I think the Windrunners' 5th oath will either be both about Protecting and Leading, I like the "I'll teach other how to protect" idea but it seems contradicted by the fact Windrunners get squires at the 3rd oath

On 13/12/2020 at 7:11 AM, Prymalfire said:

"I will make a world that no longer needs my protection."

I love that one sooo much

On 09/12/2020 at 3:52 AM, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

“I will not harm one to protect another.”

Contradicts Kal's character development. Remember before the battle of Thaylen Field he could not hurt people without the "us" and "them" rationalisation

If any order have an oath telling to hurt no one it'll be the Edgedancers (remember, the actual Radiants medics) and it doesn't seems like they will

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1 hour ago, Thaumium said:

I think something along the lines of

"I will sacrifice myself to save many"

That would mean not many 5th ideal windrunners flying around though.

Pre-ROW, I thought the 4th Ideal might be the exact opposite. 'I will protect myself to protect others in the future', like how search and rescue personnel won't put themselves in a position where they will add to the number of people who need rescuing.

I also thought the 4th Ideal could have been something like 'I will protect those I can, even at the expense of others', similar to the ideas of triage that others have mentioned (or even choosing a side in a situation where both might be sympathetic but one side is more antagonistic at that point in time).

The 5th Ideal could be either one of those, or it could be along the lines of 'I will allow those who can to protect themselves'. It does have a nice parallel with the 2nd ideal of 'I will protect those who cannot protect themselves'. I think I disagree with the idea that it is encompassed by the 4th. You can still be putting effort into protecting those who can handle themselves while not hating yourself for past failures.

40 minutes ago, mathiau said:

From what the Highspren said about the Skybreaker's 5th oath, I think the Windrunners' 5th oath will either be both about Protecting and Leading, I like the "I'll teach other how to protect" idea but it seems contradicted by the fact Windrunners get squires at the 3rd oath

Skybreakers get squires at 4th, when they are still completing a crusade, right? If they haven't 'become the law' but still have squires who are sworn to uphold the law, I don't see why the Windrunners can't have squires at 3rd.

 

I do like the idea of 'I will make a world that does not need protection', as it implies tackling systemic issues rather than putting out spot fires (@trav for the inspiration from this thread, not sure who else has come up with this). It would be nice to see some Windrunners who protect without having to stab someone. A Windrunner lawyer might be fun, using loopholes to look after people ('Oh, you've been accused of stealing soulcast grain to feed your starving family? Well, there is this one law from a hundred years ago that no-one bothered to repeal which prohibits theft of lavis grain, and seeing it isn't technically from a lavis plant...').

Edited by jamesbondsmith
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25 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

I do like the idea of 'I will make a world that does not need protection', as it implies tackling systemic issues rather than putting out spot fires. It would be nice to see some Windrunners who protect without having to stab someone. A Windrunner lawyer might be fun, using loopholes to look after people ('Oh, you've been accused of stealing soulcast grain to feed your starving family? Well, there is this one law from a hundred years ago that no-one bothered to repeal which prohibits theft of lavis grain, and seeing it isn't technically from a lavis plant...').

All I'll say is that if I were a Windrunner, I would want that to be the 5th ideal. Making the world a noticeably better place overall is something I'd put so much storming time and effort into. :P

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3 minutes ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Skybreakers get squires at 4th, when they are still completing a crusade, right? If they haven't 'become the law' but still have squires who are sworn to uphold the law, I don't see why the Windrunners can't have squires at 3rd.

After they accomplished their crusade but yes, before the fifth.

My point was that since Windrunners have squires at Oath 3 then they also start teaching people to protect at Oath 3 which would make having the Oath 5 being about teaching people to protect redundant

Quote

I do like the idea of 'I will make a world that does not need protection', as it implies tackling systemic issues rather than putting out spot fires. It would be nice to see some Windrunners who protect without having to stab someone. A Windrunner lawyer might be fun, using loopholes to look after people ('Oh, you've been accused of stealing soulcast grain to feed your starving family? Well, there is this one law from a hundred years ago that no-one bothered to repeal which prohibits theft of lavis grain, and seeing it isn't technically from a lavis plant...').

I think a Windrunner would more likely say things like "by letting them starve you almost committed a murder which is worse", abusing loophole to save people feels more Skybreakery in my opinion. Of course a Skybreaker doing that would be very respected by Windrunners :)

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2 hours ago, mathiau said:

abusing loophole to save people feels more Skybreakery in my opinion

I feel like that goes against the spirit of the order, even if it's not exactly prohibited. Skybreakers seem like they're more supposed to be the types to change the bad law in the first place (Nale's "the law cannot be moral, but you can be moral as you create laws" speech). 

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1 minute ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I feel like that goes against the spirit of the order, even if it's not exactly prohibited. Skybreakers seem like they're more supposed to be the types to change the bad law in the first place (Nale's "the law cannot be moral, but you can be moral as you create laws" speech). 

Well, yes and no

Quote

“There is always one,” Warren said, “who notices that. Remember that while loopholes are to be exploited, Szeth-son-Neturo, they are dangerous to rely upon. Still, you have done well. Both in your performance, and in seeing this hole in the rules.”

I think a Skybreaker using a loophole to help someone would be fine if they made the law better afterward. Note some Skybreaker will see the fact that people can starve while there's food as a bigger issue in the law than the loophole

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

“There is always one,” Warren said, “who notices that. Remember that while loopholes are to be exploited, Szeth-son-Neturo, they are dangerous to rely upon. Still, you have done well. Both in your performance, and in seeing this hole in the rules.”

Considering we know the new order would horrify the old one, I don't know if the new ones loving exploiting loopholes (mainly to murder people) says much about what the order is ideally like xD

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Note some Skybreaker will see the fact that people can starve while there's food as a bigger issue in the law than the loophole

That's a fair point too

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48 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Considering we know the new order would horrify the old one, I don't know if the new ones loving exploiting loopholes (mainly to murder people) says much about what the order is ideally like xD

Good point, the old order was probably more about Justice than Laws so whether or not exploiting loopholes to help people is a good idea would probably be a point of dissension among them, many would say you're supposed to prevent the situation where you need the loop hole from happening in the first place

Edited by mathiau
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