Stormgate

Windrunners 5th Oath

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Yesterday, I decided to try to make my best guess as to the 5th Oath of the Windrunners. 

The Second and Third are about when to protect, that is, protecting those who can't protect themselves, even if you hate them. The Fourth is, in part, when to stop protecting, or to accept that sometimes you can't. 

My thought is that the Fifth is when to stop protecting altogether, to let them protect themselves. I don't have much rationale behind this, just that, to me, it seems like the most appropriate next step. 

Thoughts? I am looking for support if you agree, or alternate ideas otherwise. 

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I was thinking more along the lines of "I will decide who is worth protecting" because it fits with the "I am the law" of the Skybreakers. 

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I'm thinking along the lines of 'letting them protect themselves'.   I feel like that fits with Kaladin's journey.

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Yeah I thought oath 4 would be letting people choose to whether they want to be protected, and it was letting go of those you failed to protect. So I’m thinking perhaps the accepting that people sometimes don’t need your protection, or don’t want it, is the last one.

if the sky breakers is “become the law” it kind of fits the self awareness idea: trust your judgment. So perhaps it’s the: you have to know when to protect and when to not.

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Really good point. There does seem to be a running theme about recognizing the agency of those around you, as part of growth in general.

Edited by CogitoErgoArclo
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I have to wonder if it will be something like, "I will let others protect themselves." So kind of overcoming the whole desire to wrap the world in bubble-wrap that it seems like Windrunners might succumb to. The only issue is that we haven't really seen that as something Kaladin has struggled with. He hasn't really had the whole, "I'm going to keep my friends from going into battle because I can't stand to see them hurt." So I'm not sure. The whole accepting he can't protect everyone was such a big deal for the four books, so what else has Kaladin really been struggling with? I can't say I really know for sure. 

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My personal thought is that it's a modified version of the Surgeons oath.

1. Protect the most vulnerable

2. Some version of deciding between those who are equally vulnerable

3. If someone can not benefit from protection go to the next most deserving

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23 hours ago, Spren of Kindness said:

I'm thinking along the lines of 'letting them protect themselves'.   I feel like that fits with Kaladin's journey.

I'm with you. This was hinted already!

Quote

Kaladin crept in the direction he thought the sound came from. “I fight to protect my men.”

“Closer,” Zahel said. “But your men are now as safe as they could ever be. They can care for themselves. So why do you keep fighting?”

“Maybe I don’t think they’re safe,” Kaladin said. “Maybe I…”

“… don’t think they can care for themselves?” Zahel asked. “You and old Dalinar. Hens from the same nest.”

 

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There have been hints about Kaladin not really living life or letting others live their lives either. I know that kind of ties in to “Life Before Death,” but I wonder if it will be something along the lines of “I will live life and allow others to live life accepting risks.” Not very elegant at the moment, but that’s the gist of what I’m thinking. Kaladin is moving on from holding on to the dead. Now he has to step forward and join the living. (Maybe now that he has Hoid’s flute back he can get a hobby, start a band, break social norms as a man with music. Ha ha.) 

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I think it's something along the lines of "I will also protect myself" because 1: a dead Windrunner protects no one and 2: so they can learn to not suffer from "martyr complex" and not throw themselves in front of dangers needlessly.

That, ironically, would make Teft "get" the 5th Ideal very quickly, if he had the chance and I was correct...

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On 12/5/2020 at 3:23 AM, Stormgate said:

Yesterday, I decided to try to make my best guess as to the 5th Oath of the Windrunners. 

The Second and Third are about when to protect, that is, protecting those who can't protect themselves, even if you hate them. The Fourth is, in part, when to stop protecting, or to accept that sometimes you can't. 

My thought is that the Fifth is when to stop protecting altogether, to let them protect themselves. I don't have much rationale behind this, just that, to me, it seems like the most appropriate next step. 

Thoughts? I am looking for support if you agree, or alternate ideas otherwise. 

It's the logical next step, it fits quite well with the progression of Oaths and all the previous suggestions for this Ideal too: teaching / giving others the tools to protect themselves and delegation. Triage was covered well with the Fourth Ideal.

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I feel like swearing to let people protect themselves is redundant. Kaladin has accepted that there are people he cannot save, and therefore has accepted that he has to let other people save themselves. I feel that this oath will deal with how to protect, something that Kaladin has struggled with from the beginning.

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5 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I feel like swearing to let people protect themselves is redundant. Kaladin has accepted that there are people he cannot save, and therefore has accepted that he has to let other people save themselves. I feel that this oath will deal with how to protect, something that Kaladin has struggled with from the beginning.

We've seen Kaladin freeze when he thinks he can´t protect his man. He claims he couldn't train more men and send them to battle to die. All this man he is referring to are soldiers who are trained, willing and ready to fight.

It's not redundant if you think about it as letting other (able) people to protect. After all, the 2nd ideal was about protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

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I think Kal’s 5th oath does seem like it’s going to be “I will let others protect themselves” or something along those lines, but that seems very specific for Kal. Not a ton of Windrunners seem to have the same sort of problem with trying to protect everyone. 

Also, doesn’t it sorta seem like that would be a step back from Kal’s 4th oath? Knowing that some people are going to die anyway is a much harder truth to accept than accepting the fact that some people can protect themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

We've seen Kaladin freeze when he thinks he can´t protect his man. He claims he couldn't train more men and send them to battle to die. All this man he is referring to are soldiers who are trained, willing and ready to fight.

It's not redundant if you think about it as letting other (able) people to protect. After all, the 2nd ideal was about protecting those who cannot protect themselves.

That is before he swore the fourth ideal.

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6 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

That is before he swore the fourth ideal.

Yes, but I don't think that's relevant. He's been dealing with the 4th words since before being a radiant..!

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4 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Yes, but I don't think that's relevant. He's been dealing with the 4th words since before being a radiant..!

What? Kaladin has been struggling with letting people go and accepting that he cannot save everyone for that long. Now he has sworn that oath, we haven't seen him struggle with it at all. What you are saying is the same as saying that Kaladin would still allow Elhokar to die despite swearing the third ideal.

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I'm wondering if the 5th oath has to do with forgiveness, or perhaps recognizing when someone is too far gone? 

Protecting those you hate is not the same as forgiving them, and the main thread left for Kal's character arc is Moash.  We've pretty heavily plumbed the depths of Kal's revenge, so i'm hoping that's not the goal for yet another book, even though that's the clear setup with Moash.  Either way i suspect whatever the words are will relate to that.  Could somehow be "others can protect themselves" if moash starts going after bridge 4 instead of Kal, but he's almost certainly got to be pivotal to it.

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57 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

What? Kaladin has been struggling with letting people go and accepting that he cannot save everyone for that long. Now he has sworn that oath, we haven't seen him struggle with it at all. What you are saying is the same as saying that Kaladin would still allow Elhokar to die despite swearing the third ideal.

Ok first of all, I'm sorry if my wording wasn't accurate. English is not my native language.

Second, I'm not saying "letting people die", I am saying he will probably need to learn to trust his man, soldiers and Windrunners, to protect themselves and others, let them develop and make choices in order to fulfill their oaths. Empower them basically. It's not the same ase watching them die and doing nothing.

Anyways, this is my guess for the fifth oath, I'm not sure we have enough clues to actually predict it.

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50 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

Ok first of all, I'm sorry if my wording wasn't accurate. English is not my native language.

Second, I'm not saying "letting people die", I am saying he will probably need to learn to trust his man, soldiers and Windrunners, to protect themselves and others, let them develop and make choices in order to fulfill their oaths. Empower them basically. It's not the same ase watching them die and doing nothing.

Anyways, this is my guess for the fifth oath, I'm not sure we have enough clues to actually predict it.

Your wording was accurate. I'm just saying that Kaladin hasn't shown that he is overly worried about the soldiers and Windrunners under his command since he has sworn the fourth ideal. I think that swearing to let people protect themselves would be redundant, as I believe that the fourth oath has already covered it.

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Not sure if I have much to go off of this but I think it will be something like "I will lead by example." 

We forget that other big attribute for Windrunners is leadership and the best way to lead is by being something that people want to aspire to.

This also ties into protecting people from themselves as with a lack of positive role models you tend to lean towards quite a few things you'll regret.

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40 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Not sure if I have much to go off of this but I think it will be something like "I will lead by example." 

We forget that other big attribute for Windrunners is leadership and the best way to lead is by being something that people want to aspire to.

This also ties into protecting people from themselves as with a lack of positive role models you tend to lean towards quite a few things you'll regret.

The down side to leadership, is no oath we have seen has matched the attributes, so much as the order (i will protect, remember, speak my truth etc). The 5th oath will IMHO be about embodying that order, how its worded im not sure, because i am protection doesnt have a ring to it, and kals 4th oath wasnt as standard in wording as the ealier ones

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9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The down side to leadership, is no oath we have seen has matched the attributes, so much as the order (i will protect, remember, speak my truth etc). The 5th oath will IMHO be about embodying that order, how its worded im not sure, because i am protection doesnt have a ring to it, and kals 4th oath wasnt as standard in wording as the ealier ones

I agree, typing this up I knew I was grasping at straws as I was trying to keep the theme of protection and I was thinking, 'what is the next step after protecting people from external threats, subjective protection and acceptance of helplessness in some situations.'

Maybe with Kal's new life path he seems to be taking, 'I will protect the best way possible.'

On the other hand, the choice of wording might be what exactly sets ideal five against the rest.

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1 hour ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

I agree, typing this up I knew I was grasping at straws as I was trying to keep the theme of protection and I was thinking, 'what is the next step after protecting people from external threats, subjective protection and acceptance of helplessness in some situations.'

Maybe with Kal's new life path he seems to be taking, 'I will protect the best way possible.'

On the other hand, the choice of wording might be what exactly sets ideal five against the rest.

Yer i feel we dont have any hints short of the skybreakers for the 5th oath. At least with the 4th we had the gem archive even if it pointed a little away from accepting you cant save everyone. We also dont have hints on what it provides either, beyond the completion of the bond between spren and radiant. Given its the last step i feel its an embodyment of the order type deal, ie protection, justice, truth etc etc

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“I will not harm one to protect another.”

The first oath is the same for all radiants.

The second oath embodies the basic idea of the order. Windrunners will protect. Skybreakers will obey the law. Edgedancers will love/remember the unloved/forgotten.

The third oath is a “higher ideal” because it raises the bar from the second oath. Windrunners will not make exceptions to protection. Skybreakers literally phrase their third oath as the oath of “choosing a higher law” to follow. Edgedancers will not only remember (passive) but will listen (active).

The second and third oaths embody the first divine attribute of the order. And yes, I believe the Edgedancer oaths requires loving them as well, even if it’s not explicitly said.

The fourth oath involves moving on from the past. This is the weakest in my theory. Windrunners forgive themselves for inability. Skybreakers go on a quest to deal with something in their past. The completion allows them to move on from whatever the quest is about. Edgedancers help others move on from their past.

The fifth oath is similar to the third. It means obeying an even higher ideal. In fact, the highest possible for the order’s theme. Second oath is good, third is better, and fifth is best. However, the fifth ideal actually lightens the load of the radiant. Fifth oath examples:

Windrunners recognize that both sides of a conflict (human and voidbringer) need protection from each other. Windrunners choose not to protect someone in order to avoid doing the opposite to the other side. Windrunners will still protect people from natural disasters and anything else that isn’t caused by a different person. Windrunners will seek to end conflict in a way that protects both sides.

Skybreakers not only obey the law, they become the law. But by becoming the law, they can choose the law.

I’m not sure what the Edgedancer oath is.

The fourth and fifth oaths embody the second divine attribute. Windrunners accept their own inability, which is a major part of leadership. Also, by choosing not to protect, they instead dedicate their lives to leading other Windrunners and sending them to do the protecting. Skybreakers are confident now that they aren’t weighed down by their past. They are confident that they are correct because they embody the law, which they view as correct. Edgedancers heal others of negative aspects of their pasts.

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