Issues with the Recreance [Discuss]

[Bigmikey357]

We got another piece of the puzzle irt the Recreance,  basically that the spren were active participants although they weren't fully aware of the consequences.  That's great and all, it shows that humans were not complete monsters,  but it does bring about some worrisome questions.  My first one is why wasn't this information already known?  I can sort of understand for Honorspren and maybe Ashspren and Inkspren;  from the reactions of those we've met, their losses had to be among the heaviest.  I can also understand it for some of the spren alive at the time. Sib was in withdrawal,  Syl was in a coma, SF and maybe NW were unbonded and thus cognitively limited.  Yet there must be some of them that knew this was an orchestrated act, an agreement between man and Spren.  The Highspren in particular didn't lose a single soul to the Recreance.  And judging from the actions of Cultivationspren and Cryptics and the favorable attitudes of Peakspren I am sure that there are survivors in the know among them as well. So how come it took the unlikely event that was Maya's partial revival for this information to become common knowledge? 

We can assume that spren aren't dumb,  at least in their home realm. If that's the solution then that's both unsatisfying and unrealistic. So that leaves a couple possibilities, both of which are hinted at in RoW.  Either those that lived through the Recreance are hiding something,  or they were fundamentally damaged by the caging of Bo-Ado-Mishram. In the case of the former, what could be so bad that they were willing to stay quiet and let humanity take all the blame? And what changed so that they were willing to bond again yet still unwilling to share the secret? The latter is also plausible and all live spren are pretty much walking wounded whether they are deadeyes or not.  So what exactly was BAM's actual role in Rosharan ecology and why was she able to provide at least partial functionality despite being Unmade? We got a lot of information but I feel we still lack the keystone.  We have awhile to discuss it before we get our answers,  probably in book 5. 

[+Harrycrapper]

I suspect that Nale and Ishar had more to do with the Recreance than we previously thought. They believed that if the Knights Radiant continued to exist that it would start another Desolation. Whether or not they knew what would happen to the spren, their goal was to ensure spren no longer wanted to bond humans. I suspect the non Highspren didn't know their kin were not victims of betrayal because all of the dead spren were in the physical realm and unable to directly communicate with the spren still in the cognitive realm. As for the Highspren, I suspect Nale made an agreement with them not to disclose that fact due to the responsibility the Skybreakers took on of making sure no other Radiant order started up again. That could also be the case for any non Highspren that might have known as well, other Heralds may have helped swear any who knew to secrecy. The spren that survived the recreance told the ones born after that it was all the humans' fault so that they wouldn't bond them. All the Honorspren had died so they didn't have anyone who could have possibly known and have spent 4000 years stewing in their hatred of humanity. 

[Darth_Hel]

Also, its mentioned that the Spren during the Recreance did not expect to become Deadeyes. They probably expected some harm from the breaking of Oaths but Deadeyes were a new phenomenon. So, they may have kept the upcoming Recreance a secret, figuring they could explain after if they needed to but then just never had the chance.

 

[DiePie]

I find it more likely that while certain kinds of spren (such as maybe the Peakspren, Cultivationspren, or Cryptics that were mentioned above) knew this information, other kinds (such as the Honorspren) did not, and this is the sort of knowledge that would be kept as state secrets, and would be dismissed by most people not already in the know if some simplified version spread. Honorspren are not especially liked by the other kinds of spren, and so would be one of the last to hear of a rumor like this.

[Leuthie]

The only spren we've talked to about the Recreance have been Honorspren, who all died (or were in a coma at the time). The current Honorspren have mostly sequestered themselves in their city, so are probably more ignorant than others. Stormfather wasn't himself, yet. Nightwatcher and Sibling weren't bonded (or they'd be deadeyes, too).

The other spren societies may have been aware of the mutual decision. The passage of time and the huge difference in consequences between spren and human can change a culture's view of history, though. Honorspren literally didn't know it was mutual. Others could have easily and conveniently forgotten.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

51 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Sibling weren't bonded

I mean, the Sibling was bonded to Melishi.

Quote

Long ago, before I banished men from these halls, my last Bondsmith made me something. A method of protecting me from the dangers I saw in men. He thought it would help me trust again. It did not. But it might stop the Fused from corrupting me further.

Quote

Navani felt a spike of alarm, until the Sibling spoke into her mind. It worked. Melishi … I have hated you … but now I bless you. It worked. I am safe, for now.

And Melishi's powers were required for the imprisonment of Mishram, so he had to have them at least up until then. And since a] the gemstones in the tower never mention the outcome of the imprisonment, and b] the Radiants were out fighting right before the Feverstone Keep vision, it's safe to say the Recreance was likely pretty much immediately after that.

[Raven Wilder]

While you'd think they'd want to have a long discussion over the matter, it's possible that, due to one circumstance or another, they made the decision to do the Recreance very quickly, and so didn't have time to spread the word about what was gonna happen.

[Golstar]

Radiant spren that aren't bonded seem to know very little about what's going on in the physical realm, and they also to be rather forgetful. I'm not sure they are even capable of remembering events in the same manner as mortals.

I think it can be boiled down to the unbonded spren seeing the bonded spren as dumb and/or frivolous. Then when they all suddenly become dead-eyes, the unbonded spren immediately assume humans are to blame (they were already likely biased against humans as they weren't bonded and fighting Odium). Those who did learn about the truth probably forgot or don't bother communicating it to other spren.

Spren in the cognitive realm are sentient bundles of investiture representing an idea. When a mortal dies and leaves behind a cognitive shadow, they begin sliding into insanity - Zahel describes this as becoming 'spren-like'.

The spren are essentially insane and without a Nahel Bond it's probably worse. If you send a former resident back into an asylum for the insane to tell them about the world outside, that's going to have a limited effect. When a whole bunch of former residents show up mute and without eyes, and the asylum residents know these were in the care of specific individuals outside - they're going to blame the outside people. Regardless of what they were told prior to the incident. They probably don't even remember any such stories correctly.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Golstar

[+Bliev]

3 hours ago, Darth_Hel said:

Also, its mentioned that the Spren during the Recreance did not expect to become Deadeyes. They probably expected some harm from the breaking of Oaths but Deadeyes were a new phenomenon. So, they may have kept the upcoming Recreance a secret, figuring they could explain after if they needed to but then just never had the chance.

 

This is what I supposed. They didn't know they would "die". They figured they'd return to the Cog realm, pained, but unbonded. They'd be able to discuss it with their fellow spren. But then everything when haywire. 

 

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, the Sibling was bonded to Melishi.

And Melishi's powers were required for the imprisonment of Mishram, so he had to have them at least up until then. And since a] the gemstones in the tower never mention the outcome of the imprisonment, and b] the Radiants were out fighting right before the Feverstone Keep vision, it's safe to say the Recreance was likely pretty much immediately after that.

The Sibling left the tower, and presumably they're bond, before the Recreance according to the gem archive. We don't have a timeline for the events, so there's no way of telling. But the Sibling was definitely not bonded when the Recreance happened (because they'd be a deadeye).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The Sibling left the tower, and presumably they're bond, before the Recreance according to the gem archive. We don't have a timeline for the events, so there's no way of telling. But the Sibling was definitely not bonded when the Recreance happened (because they'd be a deadeye).

Or Melishi just didn't abandon his Ideals and kill the Sibling.

We don't technically have a timeline, but we have very strong implications of a very very short timeline between Mishram's capture and the Recreance. If the singers were already lobotomized, what "demons" would the Radiants have been fighting directly before coming to Feverstone Keep and breaking their Ideals? They had to have been fighting shortly before that scene.

And Melishi's Bondsmith powers have been stated to be required for Mishram's capture, so the bond could not have been broken before then.

[Darth_Hel]

Melishi could have died during the capture plan, or perhaps used Bondsmith powers to sever their connection in lieu of abandoning oaths.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

Radiant spren that aren't bonded seem to know very little about what's going on in the physical realm, and they also to be rather forgetful. I'm not sure they are even capable of remembering events in the same manner as mortals.

I think it can be boiled down to the unbonded spren seeing the bonded spren as dumb and/or frivolous. Then when they all suddenly become dead-eyes, the unbonded spren immediately assume humans are to blame (they were already likely biased against humans as they weren't bonded and fighting Odium). Those who did learn about the truth probably forgot or don't bother communicating it to other spren.

Spren in the cognitive realm are sentient bundles of investiture representing an idea. When a mortal dies and leaves behind a cognitive shadow, they begin sliding into insanity - Zahel describes this as becoming 'spren-like'.

The spren are essentially insane and without a Nahel Bond it's probably worse. If you send a former resident back into an asylum for the insane to tell them about the world outside, that's going to have a limited effect. When a whole bunch of former residents show up mute and without eyes, and the asylum residents know these were in the care of specific individuals outside - they're going to blame the outside people. Regardless of what they were told prior to the incident. They probably don't even remember any such stories correctly.

I can see that for other Orders,  other spren.  But the Highspren didn't lose anyone.  And it isn't like they didn't know,  the Gem Archive has a Skybreaker expressing concerns about the plan. And even if Highspren are something like isolationist they still trade with other spren societies.  Which brings me back to the first point,  what information are they hiding?  How powerful of a secret must it be for even the people who disagree with the plan not to mention it to anybody? 

[Golstar]

7 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I can see that for other Orders,  other spren.  But the Highspren didn't lose anyone.  And it isn't like they didn't know,  the Gem Archive has a Skybreaker expressing concerns about the plan. And even if Highspren are something like isolationist they still trade with other spren societies.  Which brings me back to the first point,  what information are they hiding?  How powerful of a secret must it be for even the people who disagree with the plan not to mention it to anybody? 

That's a fair point. It could be they just don't see a point. Spren aren't particularly forthcoming - the Stormfather doesn't tell Dalinar even very important things until asked. Nale probably knows what happened during the Recreance, and he very likely doesn't want anyone else to know. So my devil's advocate question would be - "are they hiding anything, if noone is asking?".

[+Harrycrapper]

There isn't exactly a clear timeline to the gem archives. Things we know for certain is that they're all before the Recreance ended(which keep in mind may not have been a singular event, it could have been spread out over time) and that some have to of come before and after the imprisoning of Ba-Ado-Mishram. There are three major events that we know come in a particular order and some of the gem archives can be placed specifically and some not. The earliest ones we can be sure of are the Truthwatcher ones where they lay out their plan to imprison B-A-M. Then there are ones which are likely the aftermath of that event where they discuss how the tower has begun to fail. Then finally there are the ones where the Radiants have begun to debate and then decide to abandon the tower. Then there's one that contained this message "The enemy makes another push toward Feverstone Keep. I wish we knew what it was that had them so interested in that area. Could they be intent on capturing Rall Elorim?" That one is rather strange. Others pointed out before that the Radiants were fighting something from Odiums forces near Feverstone Keep right before the Recreance vision. As far as we know, the Listeners were the only parsh that escaped the transformation into slave form as a result of the B-A-M imprisonment. But obviously the imprisonment had to of occurred before the Recreance could begin. One possibility I can think of is human forces being led by an Unmade. The only other one is that some parsh did not get turned into slave form and the Radiants there were hunting down the remaining parsh loyal to Odium(or similarly being led by an Unmade). 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Harrycrapper

[Leuthie]

30 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Then there's one that contained this message "The enemy makes another push toward Feverstone Keep. I wish we knew what it was that had them so interested in that area. Could they be intent on capturing Rall Elorim?" That one is rather strange. Others pointed out before that the Radiants were fighting something from Odiums forces near Feverstone Keep right before the Recreance vision.

It's possible that people were fighting the Radiants. Non-Radiant turned against Radiant when they found out the truth about humans destroying their previous world with surges. This could have been the last straw prompting spren and Radiant to put down the bonds to stop such a war.

I have to reread the Feverstone Keep/Recreance vision again.

Tanavast was dying in a slow process that made him seem crazy. An Unmade took over the singers. The Radiants trapped the Unmade in a gem. The singers were suddenly compliant slaves. Everyone found out that humans aren't native and destroyed their previous planet with surges. Radiants and spren decided to drop their bonds. The spren surprisingly ended up dead, turning into mystical swords that people fought over for the next several hundred years.

This would be a great prequel for Brandon to write if he ever gets time. I wonder if he could squeeze it into a single novel?

[+Harrycrapper]

3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

It's possible that people were fighting the Radiants. Non-Radiant turned against Radiant when they found out the truth about humans destroying their previous world with surges. This could have been the last straw prompting spren and Radiant to put down the bonds to stop such a war.

I have to reread the Feverstone Keep/Recreance vision again.

Tanavast was dying in a slow process that made him seem crazy. An Unmade took over the singers. The Radiants trapped the Unmade in a gem. The singers were suddenly compliant slaves. Everyone found out that humans aren't native and destroyed their previous planet with surges. Radiants and spren decided to drop their bonds. The spren surprisingly ended up dead, turning into mystical swords that people fought over for the next several hundred years.

This would be a great prequel for Brandon to write if he ever gets time. I wonder if he could squeeze it into a single novel?

It's definitely possible that Odium used the fact that humans with Radiant powers destroyed their last planet and which inevitably landed them in the horrible Desolation cycle to convince some humans to support him. That could be the source of the belief that the Radiants betrayed mankind. 

I'm getting close to that vision in my re-read of WoK. I didn't have time to do a series re-read before RoW so I'm doing all 4 now that I've done my first pass at RoW. I'll come back here if there's any useful insights I glean. 

And I doubt Brandon will ever write prequels for Stormlight, but who knows maybe Stormlight will get as popular as Game of Thrones one day and they make shows that cover content that Brandon doesn't have time to write.  

[ftl]

5 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

And I doubt Brandon will ever write prequels for Stormlight,

Well, Warbreaker (and its planned sequel) are basically that, in Brandon's mind

[+Harrycrapper]

27 minutes ago, ftl said:

Well, Warbreaker (and its planned sequel) are basically that, in Brandon's mind

That's not exactly what I meant. Those books are standalone with their own world and characters, some of which matriculate onto Roshar for the events of the Stormlight Archive. Not to mention, Warbreaker was released before Stormlight and is set before it. Prequels by definition are stories set before something that has already been released. Anyway, I'm talking about stories set on Roshar before the current Stormlight books based on events we've heard about but not really seen in detail.