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Prediction: Odium’s champion will be Gavinor

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Is Dalinar an unchained bondsmith without Twnwvast regulating the surges?

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On 15.12.2020 at 6:29 PM, OdiYum said:

Can't Dalinar just take the connection to Odium's champion has during the contest and kill himself?  This is something I can see him doing if it is Gavinor.

if something like this becomes possible down the line I'll drop the series.
its downright stupid.

Dalinar made the deal. its on him and no one else and it can not be shifted to someone else. same goes for Odium and the Champions.
if shifting Oaths arround like that were possible then Odium would have found a way to rid himself of his boundaries long ago.

hard no. god, please no.

 

unharmed by either side...
well, theres not just 2 sides anymore.
 

so far the suggested loopholes are not an overall interesting read in my eyes. that includes the ones I came up with.
for example, ending in a draw or voiding the pact has the hugest repercussions and is therefor the most dramatic outcome. its rather anticlimatic for the actual battle though.
 

Edited by trav
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On 12/17/2020 at 3:24 AM, trav said:

if something like this becomes possible down the line I'll drop the series.
its downright stupid.

Dalinar made the deal. its on him and no one else and it can not be shifted to someone else. same goes for Odium and the Champions.
if shifting Oaths arround like that were possible then Odium would have found a way to rid himself of his boundaries long ago.

hard no. god, please no.

 

unharmed by either side...
well, theres not just 2 sides anymore.
 

so far the suggested loopholes are not an overall interesting read in my eyes. that includes the ones I came up with.
for example, ending in a draw or voiding the pact has the hugest repercussions and is therefor the most dramatic outcome. its rather anticlimatic for the actual battle though.
 

I agree, and also it won’t happen because Brandon has a much better sense of what the appropriate boundaries of a magic system should be than all the yahoos around here who want to deus ex machina everything with the flick of a wrist and a bunch of references to Fortune/Spiritual Realm/Connection. It’s like, “if I say Fortune 8 or 10 times, then I’ve got a plausible way for the Cosmere to achieve world peace and annihilate all evil actors!” Well that was easy. 

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Odium chose Dalinar as a champion. Dalinar said no.  Even made Odium flee.  Ergo, the champion chosen must be willing and able to say yes.  That rules out some people.  Probably rules out Gavinor, he does love his grandfather.

And for Taravangian to win, the champion chosen must also be able to actually kill Dalinar.   Something some random baby certainly cannot do, and something that Gavinor probably couldn't do either; I doubt he could even be convinced to swing a sword at Dalinar.  And honestly, I'd think less of Brandon for making Gavinor the champion of hatred.  He's like four years old.  I've had three of them in my time as a dad.  They may say they hate you when you tell them no or something of that ilk, but a few minutes later they're crying and asking for a hug and a snuggle.

Whatever's coming, I think the outcome will not be fully satisfactory for anyone.  I kinda think there will be a huge offensive to take as much as possible in 10 days while Dalinar is learning how to be an unbound Bondsmith.  Either that will succeed leaving our heroes with just Urithiru and a few other disparate places, or Ishar and/or Dalinar will learn how to fully reset the Oathpact so that it blocks the Everstorm's ability to transfer Fused back to Roshar and Dalinar and Taravangian will work out another deal in place of the contest of champions.

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On 12/17/2020 at 1:24 AM, trav said:

if something like this becomes possible down the line I'll drop the series.
its downright stupid.

It's already possible, We saw Ishar doing just that.

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14 hours ago, Frustration said:

It's already possible, We saw Ishar doing just that.

refresh my memory. he only tried to take a bond away which is a Connection between 2 entities. an Oath binds the person to an abstract concept. its personal. I doubt there is something like a Connection there that can be shifted. also, a Connection between Odium and Dalinar is not the oath/pact itself. its the result of them.

if that were the case then Odium only needs to gain Ishars sword to shift his oaths to just about anyone. this is dangerously stupid for a story.
its too easy. a pandoras box.

Edited by trav
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1 hour ago, trav said:

refresh my memory. he only tried to take a bond away which is a Connection between 2 entities. an Oath binds the person to an abstract concept. its personal. I doubt there is something like a Connection there that can be shifted. also, a Connection between Odium and Dalinar is not the oath/pact itself. its the result of them.

if that were the case then Odium only needs to gain Ishars sword to shift his oaths to just about anyone. this is dangerously stupid for a story.
its too easy. a pandoras box.

Well, there is a way out fro Odium.........

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On 12/8/2020 at 6:35 AM, Jofwu said:

I really dislike the general theory that Odium's champion will be a child (Gavinor or whoever)...

I hate it. Why?

It just sounds dumb. I try to imagine this battle of champions, presumably one of the biggest moments of the book 1-5 arc, where Dalinar walks out to see someone he can't kill. Taravangian says, "lol, now what are you going to do?" And Dalinar just falls down crying that he can't do it so I guess Odium wins? Seems wildly anti-climactic. :mellow:

I have really disliked the theory of children champions as well--and more generally Taravangian exploiting some kind of loophole. Some good reasons why, that allows us to escape accusations of being superficially critical, revolve around the hypothesis that the Cosmere seems to follow rules of contract law that are analogous to what we have in the English Common Law. ROdium makes an oblique reference in RoW about agreements made by Shards following the spirit of the contract rather than a strict reading of it; this coincides with the legal concept that a contract cannot be valid if there was no "meeting of the minds." Similarly there is the concept that a contract cannot be valid if some intervening event has made performance of the contract impossible or impractical to one of the parties, e.g. by having TOdium springing a surprise child champion on Dalinar. It seems to me that TOdium would be making a grave error by trying to monkey around with the agreement due to some imperfect wording because it should, theoretically, allow Dalinar to void the contract entirely and expose TOdium to an attack (ROdium says that any broken agreement would leave him vulnerable to being killed by a strike from Cultivation).

Another well-known concept in contract law is that minors lack the capacity to make a contract; a minor who signs a contract can either honor the deal or void the contract. So I see no way for Oroden or Gavinor to be a part of any agreement, that wouldn't just involve them unceremoniously canceling the contract. There is some nuance to this: a minor can void a contract for lack of capacity only while still under the age of majority, but I don't see such a exception playing any serious part in the Stormlight Archive--it would be ludicrously anti-climactic.

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And Dalinar making such a decision is a terrible direction for his character, I think. Taravangian follows EXTREME Utilitarian logic, right? But Utilitarianism isn't a terrible ethical framework in and of itself. It's Taravangian's extremism and the specific decisions that he's willing to make which are controversial and troubling. Dalinar follows a more deontological ethical framework. (the idea that certain actions are inherently right and wrong--ends don't justify the means) "Journey before destination" is a wonderful philosophy, but taking deontological ethics to an EXTREME is really no less problematic than what Taravangian is doing...

An old philosophy professor of mine used to say this: "You elect Utilitarians, you do business with Kantians (Deontologists), and you date Virtue Ethicists."

Edited by Aleph-Naught
Grammar
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13 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

It seems to me that TOdium would be making a grave error by trying to monkey around with the agreement due to some imperfect wording because it should, theoretically, allow Dalinar to void the contract entirely and expose TOdium to an attack (ROdium says that any broken agreement would leave him vulnerable to being killed by a strike from Cultivation).

I feel like this could be important.

Rayse-Odium was afraid of breaking the agreement because it would allow Cultivation to kill him.

Taravangian-Odium might not be afraid of breaking the agreement because Cultivation doesn't want to kill him.

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8 minutes ago, nehalem said:

Taravangian-Odium might not be afraid of breaking the agreement because Cultivation doesn't want to kill him

OR... She's trying to bait him into breaking it because she knows Rayse wouldn't, and wants to Splinter Odium once and for all.

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1 hour ago, nehalem said:

I feel like this could be important.

Rayse-Odium was afraid of breaking the agreement because it would allow Cultivation to kill him.

Taravangian-Odium might not be afraid of breaking the agreement because Cultivation doesn't want to kill him.

I've had this very thought.

The premise of Honor proposing the champion duel involved the fact that he would take that deal because he has been hurt before. (I think Stormfather says that in OB?) Now we see Taravangian, with no prior experience, thinking it's a terrible deal.

I could definitely see how he is prone to taking a risky mistake that leaves him open to an attack because he isn't properly afraid.

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14 hours ago, nehalem said:

I feel like this could be important.

Rayse-Odium was afraid of breaking the agreement because it would allow Cultivation to kill him.

Taravangian-Odium might not be afraid of breaking the agreement because Cultivation doesn't want to kill him.

 

13 hours ago, Jofwu said:

I've had this very thought.

The premise of Honor proposing the champion duel involved the fact that he would take that deal because he has been hurt before. (I think Stormfather says that in OB?) Now we see Taravangian, with no prior experience, thinking it's a terrible deal.

I could definitely see how he is prone to taking a risky mistake that leaves him open to an attack because he isn't properly afraid.

It isn't just Cultivation Todium needs to worry about though, its all the other Shards as well, he would be open to an attack from any of them.

Also we don't know how long he would be vulnerable, could be just when he breaks the deal or for forever more. So i don't seen this as at all likely or Todium even considering it.

 

 

 

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I agree that the child champion theory is unlikely. I just think it would be like the most anticlimactic thing ever. Just imagine.

Taravodium: Oh haha Dalinar fight Gavinor whatcha gonna do now

Dalinar: I choose honor I will doom the whole world

THE END

Dalinar needs to be strong enough to face this. What’s the point of “uniting them” if you just doom everyone to die?? I want someone as a champion that Dalinar would have a hard time killing, but he overcomes it instead of crumbling and just giving up.

Also, here’s a theory I came up with two minutes ago:

It seems like if Syl would die, Moash would be the one to kill her. Since Syl is on Dalinar’s side, if she was attacked and/or killed, or any bonded Radiant spren for that matter, wouldn’t that void the contract and allow Taravodium to be destroyed??

Anyways, tell me what you think.

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Todium's Champion will be Gavilar.  I'm willing to bet every last one of my spheres.

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8 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Todium's Champion will be Gavilar.  I'm willing to bet every last one of my spheres.

Ok. I’ll bet my last bead of Atium that Gavilar will not be the Champion due to lack of narrative sense.

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5 hours ago, rosharian_cat said:

Also, here’s a theory I came up with two minutes ago:

It seems like if Syl would die, Moash would be the one to kill her. Since Syl is on Dalinar’s side, if she was attacked and/or killed, or any bonded Radiant spren for that matter, wouldn’t that void the contract and allow Taravodium to be destroyed??

Why would killing her void the contract?

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20 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

Todium's Champion will be Gavilar.  I'm willing to bet every last one of my spheres.

 

20 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Ok. I’ll bet my last bead of Atium that Gavilar will not be the Champion due to lack of narrative sense.

*grabs popcorn* :)

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1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

 

*grabs popcorn* :)

*passes soda*

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

*passes soda*

Many thanks :P

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Well, if it is about death rattles then I think that Dalinar's champion will be Kaladin and Odium's champion will be Moash due to this deathrattle that i found while re-reading TWoK

Quote

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.” —Tanatanev 1173, 18 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed mother of four in her sixty-second year.

Moash's pain is withdrawn from him and he stands against Kaladin, who saved his life. He raises his hand and Jezrien's honorblade responds.

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41 minutes ago, Mr Bear said:

Well, if it is about death rattles then I think that Dalinar's champion will be Kaladin and Odium's champion will be Moash due to this deathrattle that i found while re-reading TWoK

Moash's pain is withdrawn from him and he stands against Kaladin, who saved his life. He raises his hand and Jezrien's honorblade responds.

That is a fighter who is inefficient in fuel consumption against a Radiant of 4th oath with living Plate. I am sorry, but that is suicidal. Unless you want Moash to swallow Yelig-Nar, but we already had that battle.

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On 4/15/2021 at 10:38 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why would killing her void the contract?

It would void the contract because any side attacking the other before the contest forces that side to be in the other’s power, and that would (I think) stop the contract.

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That only applies to the Champion not the entire side

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TOdium won't gamble on the outcome of the duel. Taravangian wants to "save everyone", and he is explicitly happy that - whatever the outcome - the agreement will bring peace to Roshar. He doesn't care about giving up Alethkar or gaining Dalinar's soul - these are tiny stakes to him.

Quote

After that, he'd wanted to save Roshar. He could do that now. He could end this war. Storms, Dalinar and Odium's contract - which bound Taravangian just as soundly - would do that already.

But.. beyond that, what of the entire cosmere?

Taravangian will try to arrange things so he's happy no matter what. All this talk of tricky champions to pick reeks of risking the agreement being nullified rather than fulfilled. 

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15 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

TOdium won't gamble on the outcome of the duel. Taravangian wants to "save everyone", and he is explicitly happy that - whatever the outcome - the agreement will bring peace to Roshar. He doesn't care about giving up Alethkar or gaining Dalinar's soul - these are tiny stakes to him.

Taravangian will try to arrange things so he's happy no matter what. All this talk of tricky champions to pick reeks of risking the agreement being nullified rather than fulfilled. 

While I agree that we may have all gone too far down the rabbit hole of loopholes and tricks, I'm not sure that I agree that Todium would be happy with just straight winning the contest. If he really has designs on the greater cosmere he's not going to be happy with a result that leaves him chained to the Rosharan system.

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