Why Kaladin was Awake.

[Binder]

I wrote this in another post in reference to Lift, I'll post it here too for people to ponder

We know that Lift exists partially in the Cognitive Realm too, so maybe that also allowed her to stay awake during the suppression. Also, Cultivation is known to make people grow and encourages it (seen when Dalinar talks to Cultivation). Progression's secondary aspect is growing plants which would link to Cultivation and the growth of all things. Her spren calls Cultivation 'Mother' and this shows that if Progression is Cultivation's surge, it explains why Lift can use Progression. Perhaps it can also be linked to the presence of Lift in Urithiru where the Sibling (Child of Honor and Cultivation) both reside. Maybe the influence of a heavily invested spren overrides the suppression? This could also be another reason for the Windrunner's becoming lucid before the other orders?

 

[Leuthie]

Vyre had no trouble using Stormlight. Kaladin had little trouble using Adhesion. Lift had no trouble using Preservation. The Fused had no trouble using Voidlight. Radiants weren't just blocked from using surges, but were rendered unconscious. Venli was not knocked out and was able to use Surges. Teft was able to awaken on his own. Lift was able to "heal" the unconsciousness. When the blocker was unreversed (the Voidlight was removed from the tower systems/the Sibling), Vyre lost his Connection to Odium and regained his feelings.

I can only conclude that the device blocks Connection. In normal use, it blocks Connection to Odium. In Voidlight use, it seemed to block Connection to Honor. Since Stormlight fuels all Radiant surgebinding, a Connection to Honor is provided by spren. If you block that Connection, the bond between Radiant and spren gets severed. The bond itself is controlled by the Connection to Honor, as evidenced by the Stormfather being the one to grant increased Ideals (for the most part).

Severing the Connection to Honor for both Radiant and spren resulted the bond being temporarily interrupted, in the spren losing their intelligence again, and the Radiants being shocked into unconsciousness. This unconsciousness is easily fixed by reverting the Connection to their spren (which also fixes the spren) via Preservation (where the Cognitive ideal of having the Connection can be used to reattach that Connection).

Vyre's Connection is handled by the Honorblade which is probably beyond the reach of the device

The Connection probably tries to reform after the device is turned on. The stronger the spren or the Connection, the quicker the Connection can reform. So there was a time limit on the Radiants being knocked out. Even after the spren-Radiant bond Connection reforms, the Connection to Honor is still broken by the device so surges that require that Connection are blocked. Surges that use other Connections are still available. The Connection that Honorblades have to Honor is different and left unbroken, or Vyre uses his Connection to Odium as a conduit to be able to use the Connection to Honor that the Honorblade provides. Lift's Connection to Cultivation keeps her and her spren together. Kaladin is still a mystery and obviously has more Connections than just to Syl.

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

1 minute ago, Leuthie said:

In Voidlight use, it seemed to block Connection to Honor.

then adhesion shouldn't work at all

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

7 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Teft was able to awaken on his own.

When? I’m pretty sure lift woke him up, and even had to renew him every 10 hours to keep him awake

 

7 hours ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

then adhesion shouldn't work at all

I think it’s a similar situation as to why 4th ideal radiants can still function. The fabrial tries to smother their connection, but the connection is strong enough to overpower  the fabrial. Adhesion, being very close to honor and literally connection, is also enough to overpower it (which was why the wind runners were stirring, but not awake)

[Gyth]

Could it be possible Kaladin’s resistance isn’t solely related to investiture? When he initially feels the dampening effect, he assumes it is simply his depression and pushes through it, like he has had to do many times throughout his life. Maybe he has a bit of natural resistance built up from fighting in this familiar battlefield. That, coupled with his level of investiture, could have given him an advantage. 

[TheDomanreiter]

On 12/3/2020 at 4:01 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Yeah it was mentioned in the book that Adhesion is purely of honor, unlike every other surge. I'm guessing bondsmiths would wake up too, but we didn't really have a good way to test that.

Well, I think perhaps we did. Navani was a bondsmith before (or right about as) the Fused lost consciousness, so I think that answers that question.

My theories are:

Kaladin being the Son of Tanavast changes something.

Syl is the oldest not-deadeye honorspren.

Kaladin's demotion? Maybe he had no Stormlight in him when Raboniel corrupted the pillar.

Kaladin being rather close to the Fourth Ideal.

Kaladin and Syl having been Bondsmith-ed by Dalinar before.

Kaladin's clos-er relationship to the Stormfather than other Radiants.

Kaladin being a Windrunner. Adhesion. Being only of Honor. etc. This may explain how other Windrunners are closest to waking up.

Something to do with the nature of the tower.

Perhaps Kaladin has kept his Oaths the most, which could also be why the other Windrunners are close to waking up, (remember how Shallan notes that Windrunners can't stand broken Oaths?)

The fact that the sibling was sort of awake gave her the ability to keep Kaladin awake, but she was so weak she could only do it to him. This could also be why he kept getting weaker each time one of the nodes was destroyed.

Obviously Lift is awake because she is 100% of Cultivation instead of a hybrid like others, maybe Kal is 100% of Honor hence "Son of Tanavast" (back to that, of course.)

This one is unlikely, but remember how Preservation sort of gave himself to Vin as he died in The Hero of Ages? Perhaps the same sort of thing with Kaladin? Hence "Son of Tanavast" (again . . .)

 

I don't know, but I think it may be one of those.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Brandon answered this: it’s because Kal was as close to the fourth as you could be without actually saying it.

[Nef]

He gave two reasons, he also said that it was because Kaladin is extra-aligned with Honor's intent.

[mathiau]

We're still forgetting one important thing here : there was not two radiants awake, there was three, and Venli was not even at her second oath and she could use both of her surges, admittedly she never used the part of transportation that require stormlight and only used voidlight to power cohesion but if we consider the reason Lift could still use lifelight to power progression is because it's the pure surge of Cultivation this implies that cohesion is the pure surge of Odium.

[HoidIsAdonalsium]

On 12/13/2020 at 0:16 AM, Dreamwa1ker said:

Love this discussion. Speaking of the whole Son of Tanavast thing and the winds responding to him etc, I had a thought. There was a conversation between Moash and Odium in RoW where Moash drops the term avatar:

RoW I-4

Then it comes up again in reference to Thaidakar:

RoW 115

I think there is a reason the concept of an avatar is being introduced at this point in Stormlight. I think Kaladin could somehow be Honor's avatar. This would be why he can command the winds, is hard to kill, why even when he first holds a spear it feels right and he is preternaturally gifted with it, and the winds have been guiding him as he fights even in flashbacks.

Now how this could happen as Honor has been shattered for quite a while before Kaladin is born - not sure. Maybe Honor gave this task to Syl the favored daughter before he was shattered, to find the right person. But this is my current theory for what's going on with Kaladin.

This is most likely the right reason.

Kaladin as an Avatar of Honor + Stormfather calling Kaladin by Son of Tanavast + the Death Rattle saying ' So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... ' (Sidenote, the death rattle could mean Odium wins, because Honor chooses Cultivation. Could tie up into Book 5 Contest, or is a hint as to how Honor got splintered.)

[Ramona Tehradin]

On 12/20/2020 at 7:54 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Brandon answered this: it’s because Kal was as close to the fourth as you could be without actually saying it.

Yes, that's true but there's other bulk of it as well. His intent of beholding ideals peak at an unhealthy level, something which would totally be Honor-like who would approve of this. This could mean Kaladin is more closer to Honor in their mindset that any other character but we can agree there are a lot of things which remain under wraps about Kal. 

 

On 12/21/2020 at 6:47 PM, mathiau said:

We're still forgetting one important thing here : there was not two radiants awake, there was three, and Venli was not even at her second oath and she could use both of her surges, admittedly she never used the part of transportation that require stormlight and only used voidlight to power cohesion but if we consider the reason Lift could still use lifelight to power progression is because it's the pure surge of Cultivation this implies that cohesion is the pure surge of Odium.

Venli remained awake because she utilized Voidlight as well as Stormlight. I'm  sure Cohesion is not true surge of Odium because clearly something similar to it predated Knight Radiants called Stoneshaping in Roshar when Dawnsingers formed a different kind of bond with spren for it.

[Chinsukolo]

Sorry if it's a necro, this was linked to in a more current conversation.

Maybe I'm dumb, by why does this need to be complicated, why can't it be as simple as the text implies?

Multiple times Odium's forces mention they need Jasnah away because she's of the 4th Ideal. When Pursuer lost to Kaladin in Hearthstone, and was at the meeting of the 9 he blamed Fused intel as being wrong and that Kal must have sworn the 4th ideal. When Rahbone (spelling) learns he's awake she suspects again that intel was wrong and the he sworn the 4th, OR that it's because he's a Windrunner and only 1/2 of his surge/oaths are effected by the field. She also pretty blatantly though not explicitly says the field only effect 9 surges of odium and no the Adhesion the 10th surge that's only of honor - hence why wind runners are less effected, and Dalinar MUST be absent despite a lower ideal sworn.

To me it seems very clear and obvious in Brandon's text/explanation that Kal is awake because of the combination of A) He's a Windrunner, so the reversed anti-Fused field only affects 1/2 of his powers.  'B) Because he's almost sworn the 4th ideal which also would have made him immune. (This is also likely why Teft is so close to alertness and then wakes compared to other WindRunners).

[NameIess]

I think Lift was able to use progression because Progression is Cultivation's surge, and she powered it with Lifelight, Cultivation's investiture. Kaladin could use adhesion, Honor's surge, using Stormlight, Honor's power.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

The WoB that's been referenced a couple times here, just so people who stumble on the thread don't have to dig for it:

Quote

Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Nyazira]

On 2021/1/17 at 8:50 AM, UnfortunatelyNamed said:

I think Lift was able to use progression because Progression is Cultivation's surge, and she powered it with Lifelight, Cultivation's investiture. Kaladin could use adhesion, Honor's surge, using Stormlight, Honor's power.

As you said, Venli could shape the stone using voidlight ,and that's because cohesion is Odium's surge? 

It just doesn't make sense. 

[NameIess]

20 minutes ago, Nyazira said:

As you said, Venli could shape the stone using voidlight ,and that's because cohesion is Odium's surge? 

It just doesn't make sense. 

Odium’s power was not suppressed. The Fused use the surges powered by Voidlight, just as Venli was able to. It was only Honor and Cultivation’s powers that were suppressed. 

[Nyazira]

Oh thanks. just saw someone replied to this above. I'll delete it.