Why Kaladin was Awake.

[Stormgate]

I'm aware that there are things going around about why Kaladin remained awake, as well as why his powers kinda worked. 

Venli asked at one point about the 9 kinds of Fused versus the 10 orders of Radiant, and which one was missing. The Fused she asked claimed Adhesion wasn't an actual Surge. This happens to be the only ability that Kaladin was able to use. Perhaps, as the most senior Wind runner, he had the closest relationship with the Surges, thus the one remaining was more powerful. It's also worth noting that the Windrunners were the only ones that showed signs of maybe kinda waking up during that time. I think this Surge was the reason. 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Yeah it was mentioned in the book that Adhesion is purely of honor, unlike every other surge. I'm guessing bondsmiths would wake up too, but we didn't really have a good way to test that.

As for why Kaladin was awake when the other windrunners weren't, I'm guessing it's because he was so close to the 4th ideal. Either that, or it's related to whyever the Stormfather calls him the child of Tanavast

[i’m in the details]

I believe it is as simple as radiants of higher oaths are more invested than those lower. It’s likely the same mechanic as why a-steel can’t be used to push on heavily invested objects. The more investiture something or someone has the less they are affected by outside investiture. 

[adouloumis]

I think Adhesion and Kaladin remaining awake are separate things.

For Adhesion: Probably the sibling did not have adhesion anti-virus since only Radiants could use it, so Raboniel could not reverse it. Windrunners were closer to waking due to their access to this surge.

As for Kaladin and Lift remaining awake I think it has to do with their investiture levels. I believe the "he was close to 4th ideal" was a red herring. Kaladin for most RoW was as far away from that ideal as possible and if it was that it would have been explained in this book Somehow Kaladin was more invested than Teft to resist the suppresion by falling asleep and that investiture was less than the difference between a Third and a Fourth Ideal Windrunner. Similiar to how (mistborn spoilers)

Spoiler

vin had a bit of extra seeking power due to her earring from hemalurgy.

So the question is how Kaladin gets that extra investiture?  I don't think he has anything like a spike or breath so probably something to do with his Tanavast connection.

[Darth_Hel]

If its extra Investiture related, then might be something different about Syl being a pre-Recreance Spren.

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, adouloumis said:

As for Kaladin and Lift remaining awake I think it has to do with their investiture levels. I believe the "he was close to 4th ideal" was a red herring. Kaladin for most RoW was as far away from that ideal as possible and if it was that it would have been explained in this book Somehow Kaladin was more invested than Teft to resist the suppresion by falling asleep and that investiture was less than the difference between a Third and a Fourth Ideal Windrunner. Similiar to how (mistborn spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

vin had a bit of extra seeking power due to her earring from hemalurgy.

So the question is how Kaladin gets that extra investiture?  I don't think he has anything like a spike or breath so probably something to do with his Tanavast connection.

Kaladin almost spoke his 4th Ideal in Shadesmar in Oathbringer. At least, the windspren believed he was close. He has known what the Ideal is, has accepted that it is something he needed to accept, he just couldn't make himself get across the line. He truly believed that if he tried hard enough he could save everyone and wasn't worthy if he couldn't.

There had to be a little bit of "close to 4th ideal", a little bit of "adhesion isn't blocked", a little bit of "Syl is a Tanavast spren", and a little bit of "Odium's powering him a little bit to try to create a champion".

Lift is easy. She's powered by Lifelight, which isn't blocked.

[CogitoErgoArclo]

22 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin almost spoke his 4th Ideal in Shadesmar in Oathbringer. At least, the windspren believed he was close. He has known what the Ideal is, has accepted that it is something he needed to accept, he just couldn't make himself get across the line. He truly believed that if he tried hard enough he could save everyone and wasn't worthy if he couldn't.

There had to be a little bit of "close to 4th ideal", a little bit of "adhesion isn't blocked", a little bit of "Syl is a Tanavast spren", and a little bit of "Odium's powering him a little bit to try to create a champion".

Lift is easy. She's powered by Lifelight, which isn't blocked.

I think that is most likely the case. 
 

But, bit of a crackpot theory: 

I wonder if Zahel could have given Kaladin (and/or Syl) a few breaths (or something similar using stormlight instead of breaths)  while they were fighting at the beginning of RoW. 
He seemed to be able to awaken just fine without verbal commands during the fight.  And he knows how to only transfer a portion of his breaths. Maybe he added a bit of extra investiture to one or both of them. And if he’s using Stormlight to fuel the transfer, it could have Connected them to Honor’s power in a way that they weren’t before. Possibly helping to explain Syl’s memories returning, and the “Child of Tanavast” bit. 
 

Edited December 4, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo

[adouloumis]

13 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin almost spoke his 4th Ideal in Shadesmar in Oathbringer. At least, the windspren believed he was close. He has known what the Ideal is, has accepted that it is something he needed to accept, he just couldn't make himself get across the line. He truly believed that if he tried hard enough he could save everyone and wasn't worthy if he couldn't.

There had to be a little bit of "close to 4th ideal", a little bit of "adhesion isn't blocked", a little bit of "Syl is a Tanavast spren", and a little bit of "Odium's powering him a little bit to try to create a champion".

Lift is easy. She's powered by Lifelight, which isn't blocked.

You are of course right about Lift, I brainfarted for a second. And perhaps about Kaladin too, but I tend to think it is mostly one of the other unexplained reasons, rather than the 4th Ideal

That made me think however. We have seen that the suppresion essentially blocks the powering of surges with Stormlight (Lift is doing it with Lifelight and  Venli with Voidlight). So why were the radiants knocked out? Most of them weren't using Stormlight at the time of the first supression so what made them unable to retain consciousness? How this works exactly? If you have access to Stormlight but not too much you get knocked out? 

[Haze]

2 hours ago, adouloumis said:

That made me think however. We have seen that the suppresion essentially blocks the powering of surges with Stormlight (Lift is doing it with Lifelight and  Venli with Voidlight). So why were the radiants knocked out? Most of them weren't using Stormlight at the time of the first supression so what made them unable to retain consciousness? How this works exactly? If you have access to Stormlight but not too much you get knocked out? 

At first I figured it was either a separate effect contained within the anti-light mechanism or that the way it blocked access to stormlight was simply a shock to the system of an honor-invested creature but idk. 

Would someone wielding the windrunner honorblade have access to gravitation? If that's the case would it be due to the unique way honorblades grant access to surges or simply because the honorblade is so highly invested? 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Haze
forgot the s

[Leuthie]

The Bond works both ways. Both Radiant and spren lose a bit of themselves to gain a bit of the other. Spren are Stormlight given form. Shut off Physical Stormlight and spren can no longer manifest Physically. They get stuck in the Cognitive, separated from their Bondmate. Enough of the Radiant is with the spren that the Radiant can't actually function in the Physical Realm without their spren.

At least, that's how I interpret it.

[Frustration]

I'm far in the Son of Tanavast camp,

It's mentioned every book and has a chapter named to it, and the only other Radiant awake had directly been touched by a shard.

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

 a little bit of "Odium's powering him a little bit to try to create a champion".

Wouldn't Odium want him asleep and vulnerable to his Visions?

 

In-book there were two reasons given:

As a Windrunner, he had a pure Surge of Honor: Adhesion

He was close to the Fourth Ideal, this is why Odium wanted to lure away Dalinar and Jasnah, because he believed they were had achieved the Fourth Ideal (Jasnah had but Dalinar hadn't). The Stormfather thought that Dalinar's powers wouldn't have worked in the tower, so he was probably not close to the Fourth Ideal.

[Ramona Tehradin]

Finally, we make another talk about our Kaladin's arcane tendencies! 

Here's what my theory is folks....or maybe we should actually call it a cumulation of theories which  I also have mentioned in some other threads wording about Kaladin's unique and mysterious abilities to defy normal ventures! So welcome to a looong special Kaladin rant. 

Just as I always vociferate, there are a lot of things about Kaladin which makes little sense other than speculations and cleverly, Brandon has given us just shutter glimpses before shrouding it over by other material in order to divert our attention from something rather very interesting going on. 

We always assumed Kaladin will be 'a step ahead' than other Windrunners because he was the first to not only swear Ideals but also gain Surgebinding abilities in his order since Recreance. But in RoW, I believe there was a point when Teft instead became really, really very close to swearing 4th Ideal and then $#@% Moash came and cowdallop! But things began to go really weird for Kaladin in Oathbringer where....he freaking deflected the Highstorm! Why is nobody talking about it! 

Oathbringer spoilers: 

Spoiler

Consumed by his pain and feelings of betrayal, Kaladin surged with Stormlight and flung his hand forward as if to try to push back the wind itself.

A hundred windspren spun in as lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons. They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin’s sides and parting the winds around him.

Kaladin stood with his hand toward the tempest, and deflected it. Like a stone in a swift-moving river stopped the waters, he opened a pocket in the storm, creating a calm wake behind him.

The storm raged against him, but he held the point in a formation of windspren that spread from him like wings, diverting the storm. He managed to turn his head as the storm battered him. People huddled behindhim, soaked, confused—surrounded by calm.

“Go!” he shouted. “Go!”

They found their feet, the young father taking his son back from Kaladin’s leeward arm. Kaladin backed up with them, maintaining the windbreak. This group was only some of those trapped by the winds, yet it took everything Kaladin had to hold the tempest.

The winds seemed angry at him for his defiance. All it would take was one boulder.

A figure with glowing red eyes landed on the field before him. It advanced, but the people had finally reached the bunker. Kaladin sighed and released the winds, and the spren behind him scattered. 

Wow, Syl said in his mind. What did you just do? With the storm?

• The spren are circulating in constant motion, creating an opposing current to deflect the winds and later binding together to contain the winds. This is NOT solely Adhesion.
• The pressure difference creation I can agree on that, using adhesion to make a suction and deflect the storm but...that's not the only thing happening right? We do not see Kaladin verily using Stormlight here. Yes, he feels the storm raging inside but that storm could be a metaphor, not stormlight...or maybe, we can just take both the best worlds in literal and metaphorical sense. Anyway, so Kaladin deflected the highstorm in Oathbringer. 
• Syl is very surprised because she hasn't 'seen' something such. It is to be noted that she's the most ancient honorspren and despite her memories being mostly clouded, mostly lost...using such powers occasionally draws her closer to remember but in this case...she is genuinely surprised having seen something that gave her father a big angry smack on face. 

The following are some observations and their possible meaning deduced from Rhythm of War. 

Spoiler

Kaladin felt a striking moment of disorientation. A feeling of oppression on his mind, like a dark force trying to smother him. He gasped, then gritted his teeth. Not now. He would not let his treasonous mind overwhelm him now! His friend was in trouble.

• When the suppression mechanism of Ur became active, everyone dropped dead. Kaladin did feel the push but he swatted it away simply like an annoying fly where as half a hundred radiants smothered unconscious! 

Spoiler

“I have two of this one’s squires in the other room,” Lirin said, nodding to the prone Stoneward. “Her friends and family hauled her up here in a big mess."

• As far as I know, Kaladin was not the only one in tower having spoken 3rd Ideal. Clearly there were radiants of different orders having spoken that far to have squires of their own and if I recall, Lightweavers and Truthwatchers quickly rise in their levels (some people think Shallan's already in her 5th). Which means many of the 3rd Ideal ones are also 'close' to their 4th Ideal just like Teft and that Stoneward radiant, but the Stoneward radiant was out in cold and Teft was stirring, not quite awake. Same with other Windrunners. They stirred mildly but as if they needed...a link back to become conscious again. 
• Venli also notices that Windrunners are 'most twitchy' among the brood they have kept bounded. 

 

• So comes our Kaladin. First of all, feels nothing more about suppression after initial push. Gravitation doesn't work but Adhesion does...Full Lashing and Reverse Lashing works, the former a pure form of Adhesion and the latter...well, here is the seed of doubt-- Reverse Lashing is combination of Adhesion and Gravitation, and Gravitation doesn't work right? But the Lashing does work which makes me skeptical about everything. Second, Teft later used a Full Lashing on Stormform Regal but I don't think he could've used a Reverse Lashing. 
• Also, as the corruption of tower grows stronger, the influence over healing becomes heavier and we saw Kaladin taking significantly long to heal through stormlight. But, his powers though seem 'Not as well as it did before'  still manifest perfectly. FL and RL both work, and it seems Kal is even getting better in utilizing them. Syl says that there were a lot of things about their powers which wasn't explored before due to continuous wars. 

What Reboniel Notes: 

Spoiler

“You continue to heal,” she noted. “And I saw the use of Adhesion earlier. I assume from the way you move, confined to the ground, that Gravitation has abandoned you. Does your hybrid power work? The one your kind often uses to direct arrows in flight?”

“Yes,” the femalen said. “A true Windrunner, all the way to your gemheart. Fascinating. You had no continuity of spren or traditions from the old ones, I’m led to believe. Yet the same attitudes, the same structures, arise naturally—­like the lattice of a growing crystal.”

• She knows humans have no gemheart. Either she meant it as a mockery or symbolism or...something else? 
• She is also aware about RL which means this has been used in past wars but she thought it would be suppressed this time...and Kaladin's didn't. That's why she became fascinated with him. 

Spoiler

It was the same for Teft, but they’d found that if Lift didn’t show up and do her little Regrowth thing to him every ten hours or so, he’d start to slip back into a coma. 

• Teft remains awake because Lift healed him and is always needed to keep him awake or else he'd slip back into coma. It means Teft remaining awake is not stabilized despite being 'close enough into his oaths as well' as we note later. But long before, Teft has declared that he was worth saving which means he knows he is not worth of hate anymore-- countering his 3rd Ideal which 4th Ideals do. That means he has accepted it already-- way before Kaladin, meaning Teft becomes 'more closer into his oaths' at this point, more than Kaladin yet Lift needs to keep Teft conscious. Now that is....uh-uh, right?
• Kaladin claims that he knew the words since Oathbringer but couldn't bring himself to speak as he can't accept those Ideals to 'his self'. As the story progresses, his depressions become more active, more heavy, more dangerous that Kaladin went on downhill for his Ideals. The distance he covered up towards his 4th Ideal just went on a retrogressive path because not only he believes he can't protect anyone-- which counters his 2nd and 3rd Ideal, but also doesn't accept that he could ever make it to his 4th. Which means at this point Kaladin has succumbed 'so low in his oaths' that even his early Ideals fail to be his acceptance. Which meant they should have severed his connection to Syl and his powers and should've thrown him out of lucidity but...Kaladin remained steady. This was more than his indomitable sheer will power. This was more than dreaming about the light and warmth again. 

Spoiler

• But there is one other. A man. He must be of the Fourth Ideal, but he has no armor. So … maybe of the Third, but close to the Fourth? Perhaps it is something about his closeness to my father—­and his closeness to the Surge of Adhesion—­that keeps him conscious. His power is that of bonds. This man is a Windrunner, but no longer wears a uniform.

- Sibling mentions 'his' not 'their' when speaking about Windrunners. Specifically his closeness to my father. 

• Yes, he said. But he is wrong. Your powers will not work at Urithiru. It seems … they have turned the tower’s protections against us. If that is true, you would need to be orders of magnitude stronger, more experienced than you are, to open a perpendicularity there. You’d have to be strong enough to overwhelm the Sibling.

• “We’d have Kaladin,” Dalinar said. “His powers still work. The Stormfather thinks it’s because he’s far enough along in his oaths.”

• “You might be able to open one there, Uncle,” Jasnah said. “What does the Stormfather think?”
  “He isn’t certain I am far enough along in my oaths or my skills to ­manage it yet,” Dalinar admitted.

- Stormfather says Dalinar is not close or strong enough to overwhelm Sibling's function which means he need to speak more oaths. Or become close to that. Kaladin clearly has powers to override it. 

• There have been many exclamations about Kaladin being the 'sole Radiant awake' but we are not given any answers. Kaladin says he felt something but that is nothing hindrance to his duty. 

Spoiler

“A lot of humans are the same,” he said, leaning down so he was eye level with her. “I guess we both need to remember that whatever’s happening in our heads, whatever it was that created us, we get to choose. That’s what makes us people, Syl.”

She smiled, then her havah bled from a light white-­blue to a deeper blue color, striking and distinct, like it was made of real cloth.

• Syl and Kal's bond becomes stronger than anything in this book, strong enough to remain connected despite being long distance apart. Connected to overcome Sibling's severing suppression. 
• It could be possible that Syl, being so ancient and a direct splinter of Honor created by Stormfather before recreance granted her significantly more power than other honorspren. Possible she is far more Invested in Honor's essence than rest of her kind are because when she was created, Honor was alive. 
• Also, Syl had left Lasting Integrity years before bonding with Kaladin. She remembers a lot of things about his childhood-- the tune which Aesudan was singing clicks right in her mind...which means Kaladin and Syl have been unconsciously interacting waaaay before everything. This was the reason Kaladin never felt Thrill even before bonding because Syl was 'present' to protect him. Also, Brandon has dodged many questions regarding past interactions between Kal and Syl before they 'met' in slaver caravan. 

Now why I was saying Adhesion is never the factor here: 

Spoiler

Kaladin exploded through the darkness, surrounded by a thousand joyful windspren, swirling like a vortex. “Go!” he shouted. “Find him!”

Though it felt like he’d been falling for hours, he had spent most of that time in the place between moments. If he was still falling through the sky, mere seconds had passed, and his father was falling somewhere below him.

Still alive.

Kaladin pointed downward, reaching out, preparing himself as hundreds of windspren met the storm and blew it back, creating an open path. A tunnel of light leading toward a single figure tumbling in the air, distant.

Again, just like in Oathbringer, Kaladin used Windspren to deflect the whole freaking highstorm again. It was no trick or twist, no bend or fold of Surges because he is clearly COMMANDING them to find him. He ordered them to go and they went, following his order again. This wasn't Adhesion here. Its' the windspren clearly. 

Spoiler

He opened his eyes and searched upward to find a column of radiant light stretching hundreds of feet in the air, holding back the storm. Windspren? Thousands upon thousands of them.

Lirin dangled from the gauntleted fist of a Shardbearer in resplendent Shardplate. Armor that seemed alive as it glowed a vibrant blue at the seams, Bridge Four glyphs emblazoned across the chest.

Everyone speculated true that Windspren will form armor and they did but even after forming and Connecting with Kaladin, thousands more of windspren still held back the storm. More than any number seen with Shardplate already formed. This shows Kaladin actually has a control over these windspren as if they are following his orders to hold back the storm. This is clear implication of a proto-Command/Surge combination we have not been explained properly. 

Some possibilities: 

• Way before speaking his Ideals, Kaladin has begun driving Stormlight into his system. Could it be possible that somehow he's unwontedly drawing Lifelight/Towerlight/Voidlight as well this time? 
• When Kaladin snapped and went full berserker against Pursuer, his Investiture was corrupted by Odium's influence but we know corrupted investiture exhibits abnormal behaviour in surges like Renarin's futuresight. Kaladin's powers remained same, Honor's true surge. Notably, he also had a great deal of control over them-- super power control despite having almost cutting all ties from his Ideals after Teft died. 
• Many think that Kaladin jumped from tower as a nod to what he couldn't do in Honor's Chasms but...here Kal not only jumped because he was giving up but he also jumped to protect his father--a last attempt that pushed Odium back. Also, we never heard Odium's voice in his mind...did we? Like this creature invaded Honor's vision, Stormfather's powers but somehow still never pored into Kaladin. That is diamond will. 
• Odium wanted him as his Champion because he saw something in his futurescape about Kaladin...otherwise why would he torture him so much, so frequently? For Odium, Vyre is almost next to nothing when it comes to usage...he's just there for him to impart his Intent. 
• Kaladin IS Dalinar's champion. 
• Yes, it will be thematically beautiful for Kaladin to have dragon DNA and shapeshifter stuff but...I don't think that plausible by any direction.

Things to ponder: 

• Kaladin gained his Surgebinding abilities waaaay before he spoke his First Ideal. Syl also seems to remember his family and says everything is connected. She mentions hearing a pure tone, demanding during that time and we have not assumed anything about it yet (I think its Cultivation).
• His senses almost becomes extremely sensitive enough like spiders to detect Pursuer without seeing or hearing him while being chased. He also seemed to have almost supernatural instincts during fights. 
• Kaladin fought two Shardbearers with his eyes closed, feeling a dance of wind around. 
• The way Cryptics near Elhokar tried to avoid when Kal came near. 'Shadows go away'  While Cryptics and honorspren don't get along too well, they don't hate each other. Cryptics clearly don't want to get detected by then they should've vanished when Elhokar was near Shallan or Renarin since both of them had bonded waaay before too. But they vanished only when Kaladin came. Even in Dalinar's presence, Elhokar was able to see shadows. 
• Tower put a damp of Gravitation but then how RL still worked?
• Hoid always appears with a story and narrates them during Kal's bad time. He freaking went into Odium's vision to lift Kal out. Whatever Hoid does is not without an intent and since Hoid knows a lot of stuff about future, we can assume our Kaladin has a lot to play as well. Also, he was given a very important relic whose purpose we have yet to see. (Kal's gonna be a Worldhopper?) 
• There must be something in future which Kaladin does that made Odium rattled enough to sway him towards him rather than killing him on first case. Why Odium wanted Kaladin as his chamption? Dalinar wouldn't fight...or if they fought...Kaladin actually won?
• Moash kept repeating that 'Kaladin Stormblessed can't be killed, he's the force of storms and storm can't be defeated.' X ten times in whole book. Why would he repeat this? What did Odium showed to Vyre?
• I NEED an explanation for deflecting highstorm with windspren. 
• And lastly......THE WHOLE FREAKING BEING Child/Son of Tanavast spoken for obvious reasons we don't freaking know! BRANDON! Every damn book!

So, mirthlessly, I give my conclusion that Kaladin remained awake not because of Adhesion or close to his 4th Ideal, but a mixture of thousand other unexplainable things that makes my brain go haywire. It could be a jumble of Lights, Tavanavast, Windspren control power....or maybe he might do something really important next book which will either have us broken into weeping mess. Whatever it is...I just want my Kaladin Stormblessed to be...happy for once in his life. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Ramona Tehradin

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

To me, it seems like the fabrial is specifically attuned to smother honors investiture, meaning there are two ways to overcome it. One, connection to a shard other than honor. We see this in Lift and Venli. There are a lot of others I'd assume could resist it on this axis to some degree as well. Renarin and now Rlain. Wit. The other way seems to be to overpower it to a degree where it doesn't matter what the intent of your investiture is because it's so much. 4th ideal radiants like Jasnah fall under this category, probably the honor blades, and it's possible that Dalinar as a bondsmith would as well. The windrunners, having access to the pure surge of honor, seem to fall in this category which is why they were stirring, but didn't have enough power to overcome it. Navani seems like she, as the Sibling's bondsmith, would probably be a bit of both.

(Tangent: there's one other piece of evidence: That using the surge of progression on someone wakes them up. I posit that using progression on someone temporarily connects them to cultivation, which is why it can wake them up, why it needs to be renewed, and why that surge worked for Lift when Abrasion didn't.)

So the question is, where does Kaladin fall? The Golden Eyes mentioned in one scene could be an indication that he's invested by Odium to some degree, enough to overcome the suppression. We've also seen Kaladin do some powerful stuff that others can't, and is referred to as the "Son of Tanavast" by the stormfather, which may indicate that even without the fourth ideal he for some reason has enough investiture to overcome it. I'm more inclined to believe the second, as it ties together multiple loose ends. The question is, why?

[CogitoErgoArclo]

One more thing I haven’t seen mentioned: 

Could we be seeing the effects of Kaladin becoming some kind of Windrunner Savant? 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Worth noting that Teft momentarily managed to summon Phen as a blade as he approached the fourth ideal. Excuse me while I curse out Moash.

[Necessary Eagle]

On the subject of Lift: remember, she couldn't use Abrasion. So it's not as simple as just "she runs on Lifelight".

[stormlore]

On 12/4/2020 at 5:20 AM, Ramona Tehradin said:

Finally, we make another talk about our Kaladin's arcane tendencies! 

Here's what my theory is folks....or maybe we should actually call it a cumulation of theories which  I also have mentioned in some other threads wording about Kaladin's unique and mysterious abilities to defy normal ventures! So welcome to a looong special Kaladin rant. 

Just as I always vociferate, there are a lot of things about Kaladin which makes little sense other than speculations and cleverly, Brandon has given us just shutter glimpses before shrouding it over by other material in order to divert our attention from something rather very interesting going on. 

We always assumed Kaladin will be 'a step ahead' that other Windrunners because he was the first to not only swear Ideals but also gain Surgebinding abilities in his order since Recreance. But in RoW, I believe there was a point when Teft instead became really, really very close to swearing 4th Ideal and then $#@% Moash came and cowdallop! But things began to go really weird for Kaladin in Oathbringer where....he freaking deflected the Highstorm! Why is nobody talking about it! 

Oathbringer spoilers: 

  Hide contents

Consumed by his pain and feelings of betrayal, Kaladin surged with Stormlight and flung his hand forward as if to try to push back the wind itself.

A hundred windspren spun in as lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons. They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin’s sides and parting the winds around him.

Kaladin stood with his hand toward the tempest, and deflected it. Like a stone in a swift-moving river stopped the waters, he opened a pocket in the storm, creating a calm wake behind him.

The storm raged against him, but he held the point in a formation of windspren that spread from him like wings, diverting the storm. He managed to turn his head as the storm battered him. People huddled behindhim, soaked, confused—surrounded by calm.

“Go!” he shouted. “Go!”

They found their feet, the young father taking his son back from Kaladin’s leeward arm. Kaladin backed up with them, maintaining the windbreak. This group was only some of those trapped by the winds, yet it took everything Kaladin had to hold the tempest.

The winds seemed angry at him for his defiance. All it would take was one boulder.

A figure with glowing red eyes landed on the field before him. It advanced, but the people had finally reached the bunker. Kaladin sighed and released the winds, and the spren behind him scattered. 

Wow, Syl said in his mind. What did you just do? With the storm?

• The spren are circulating in constant motion, creating an opposing current to deflect the winds and later binding together to contain the winds. This is NOT solely Adhesion.
• The pressure difference creation I can agree on that, using adhesion to make a suction and deflect the storm but...that's not the only thing happening right? We do not see Kaladin verily using Stormlight here. Yes, he feels the storm raging inside but that storm could be a metaphor, not stormlight...or maybe, we can just take both the best worlds in literal and metaphorical sense. Anyway, so Kaladin deflected the highstorm in Oathbringer. 
• Syl is very surprised because she hasn't 'seen' something such. It is to be noted that she's the most ancient honorspren and despite her memories being mostly clouded, mostly lost...using such powers occasionally draws her closer to remember but in this case...she is genuinely surprised having seen something that gave her father a big angry smack on face. 

The following are some observations and their possible meaning deduced from Rhythm of War. 

  Hide contents

Kaladin felt a striking moment of disorientation. A feeling of oppression on his mind, like a dark force trying to smother him. He gasped, then gritted his teeth. Not now. He would not let his treasonous mind overwhelm him now! His friend was in trouble.

• When the suppression mechanism of Ur became active, everyone dropped dead. Kaladin did feel the push but he swatted it away simply like an annoying fly where as half a hundred radiants smothered unconscious! 

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“I have two of this one’s squires in the other room,” Lirin said, nodding to the prone Stoneward. “Her friends and family hauled her up here in a big mess."

• As far as I know, Kaladin was not the only one in tower having spoken 3rd Ideal. Clearly there were radiants of different orders having spoken that far to have squires of their own and if I recall, Lightweavers and Truthwatchers quickly rise in their levels (some people think Shallan's already in her 5th). Which means many of the 3rd Ideal ones are also 'close' to their 4th Ideal just like Teft and that Stoneward radiant, but the Stoneward radiant was out in cold and Teft was stirring, not quite awake. Same with other Windrunners. They stirred mildly but as if they needed...a link back to become conscious again. 
• Venli also notices that Windrunners are 'most twitchy' among the brood they have kept bounded. 

 

• So comes our Kaladin. First of all, feels nothing more about suppression after initial push. Gravitation doesn't work but Adhesion does...Full Lashing and Reverse Lashing works, the former a pure form of Adhesion and the latter...well, here is the seed of doubt-- Reverse Lashing is combination of Adhesion and Gravitation, and Gravitation doesn't work right? But the Lashing does work which makes me skeptical about everything. Second, Teft later used a Full Lashing on Stormform Regal but I don't think he could've used a Reverse Lashing. 
• Also, as the corruption of tower grows stronger, the influence over healing becomes heavier and we saw Kaladin taking significantly long to heal through stormlight. But, his powers though seem 'Not as well as it did before'  still manifest perfectly. FL and RL both work, and it seems Kal is even getting better in utilizing them. Syl says that there were a lot of things about their powers which wasn't explored before due to continuous wars. 

What Reboniel Notes: 

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“You continue to heal,” she noted. “And I saw the use of Adhesion earlier. I assume from the way you move, confined to the ground, that Gravitation has abandoned you. Does your hybrid power work? The one your kind often uses to direct arrows in flight?”

“Yes,” the femalen said. “A true Windrunner, all the way to your gemheart. Fascinating. You had no continuity of spren or traditions from the old ones, I’m led to believe. Yet the same attitudes, the same structures, arise naturally—­like the lattice of a growing crystal.”

• She knows humans have no gemheart. Either she meant it as a mockery or symbolism or...something else? 
• She is also aware about RL which means this has been used in past wars but she thought it would be suppressed this time...and Kaladin's didn't. That's why she became fascinated with him. 

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It was the same for Teft, but they’d found that if Lift didn’t show up and do her little Regrowth thing to him every ten hours or so, he’d start to slip back into a coma. 

• Teft remains awake because Lift healed him and is always needed to keep him awake or else he'd slip back into coma. It means Teft remaining awake is not stabilized despite being 'close enough into his oaths as well' as we note later. But long before, Teft has declared that he was worth saving which means he knows he is not worth of hate anymore-- countering his 3rd Ideal which 4th Ideals do. That means he has accepted it already-- way before Kaladin, meaning Teft becomes 'more closer into his oaths' at this point, more than Kaladin yet Lift needs to keep Teft conscious. Now that is....uh-uh, right?
• Kaladin claims that he knew the words since Oathbringer but couldn't bring himself to speak as he can't accept those Ideals to 'his self'. As the story progresses, his depressions become more active, more heavy, more dangerous that Kaladin went on downhill for his Ideals. The distance he covered up towards his 4th Ideal just went on a retrogressive path because not only he believes he can't protect anyone-- which counters his 2nd and 3rd Ideal, but also doesn't accept that he could ever make it to his 4th. Which means at this point Kaladin has succumbed 'so low in his oaths' that even his early Ideals fail to be his acceptance. Which meant they should have severed his connection to Syl and his powers and should've thrown him out of lucidity but...Kaladin remained steady. This was more than his indomitable sheer will power. This was more than dreaming about the light and warmth again. 

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• But there is one other. A man. He must be of the Fourth Ideal, but he has no armor. So … maybe of the Third, but close to the Fourth? Perhaps it is something about his closeness to my father—­and his closeness to the Surge of Adhesion—­that keeps him conscious. His power is that of bonds. This man is a Windrunner, but no longer wears a uniform.

- Sibling mentions 'his' not 'their' when speaking about Windrunners. Specifically his closeness to my father. 

• Yes, he said. But he is wrong. Your powers will not work at Urithiru. It seems … they have turned the tower’s protections against us. If that is true, you would need to be orders of magnitude stronger, more experienced than you are, to open a perpendicularity there. You’d have to be strong enough to overwhelm the Sibling.

• “We’d have Kaladin,” Dalinar said. “His powers still work. The Stormfather thinks it’s because he’s far enough along in his oaths.”

• “You might be able to open one there, Uncle,” Jasnah said. “What does the Stormfather think?”
  “He isn’t certain I am far enough along in my oaths or my skills to ­manage it yet,” Dalinar admitted.

- Stormfather says Dalinar is not close or strong enough to overwhelm Sibling's function which means he need to speak more oaths. Or become close to that. Kaladin clearly has powers to override it. 

• There have been many exclamations about Kaladin being the 'sole Radiant awake' but we are not given any answers. Kaladin says he felt something but that is nothing hindrance to his duty. 

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“A lot of humans are the same,” he said, leaning down so he was eye level with her. “I guess we both need to remember that whatever’s happening in our heads, whatever it was that created us, we get to choose. That’s what makes us people, Syl.”

She smiled, then her havah bled from a light white-­blue to a deeper blue color, striking and distinct, like it was made of real cloth.

• Syl and Kal's bond becomes stronger than anything in this book, strong enough to remain connected despite being long distance apart. Connected to overcome Sibling's severing suppression. 
• It could be possible that Syl, being so ancient and a direct splinter of Honor created by Stormfather before recreance granted her significantly more power than other honorspren. Possible she is far more Invested in Honor's essence than rest of her kind are because when she was created, Honor was alive. 
• Also, Syl had left Lasting Integrity years before bonding with Kaladin. She remembers a lot of things about his childhood-- the tune which Aesudan was singing clicks right in her mind...which means Kaladin and Syl have been unconsciously interacting waaaay before everything. This was the reason Kaladin never felt Thrill even before bonding because Syl was 'present' to protect him. Also, Brandon has dodged many questions regarding past interactions between Kal and Syl before they 'met' in slaver caravan. 

Now why I was saying Adhesion is never the factor here: 

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Kaladin exploded through the darkness, surrounded by a thousand joyful windspren, swirling like a vortex. “Go!” he shouted. “Find him!”

Though it felt like he’d been falling for hours, he had spent most of that time in the place between moments. If he was still falling through the sky, mere seconds had passed, and his father was falling somewhere below him.

Still alive.

Kaladin pointed downward, reaching out, preparing himself as hundreds of windspren met the storm and blew it back, creating an open path. A tunnel of light leading toward a single figure tumbling in the air, distant.

Again, just like in Oathbringer, Kaladin used Windspren to deflect the whole freaking highstorm again. It was no trick or twist, no bend or fold of Surges because he is clearly COMMANDING them to find him. He ordered them to go and they went, following his order again. This wasn't Adhesion here. Its' the windspren clearly. 

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He opened his eyes and searched upward to find a column of radiant light stretching hundreds of feet in the air, holding back the storm. Windspren? Thousands upon thousands of them.

Lirin dangled from the gauntleted fist of a Shardbearer in resplendent Shardplate. Armor that seemed alive as it glowed a vibrant blue at the seams, Bridge Four glyphs emblazoned across the chest.

Everyone speculated true that Windspren will form armor and they did but even after forming and Connecting with Kaladin, thousands more of windspren still held back the storm. More than any number seen with Shardplate already formed. This shows Kaladin actually has a control over these windspren as if they are following his orders to hold back the storm. This is clear implication of a proto-Command/Surge combination we have not been explained properly. 

Some possibilities: 

• Way before speaking his Ideals, Kaladin has begun driving Stormlight into his system. Could it be possible that somehow he's unwontedly drawing Lifelight/Towerlight/Voidlight as well this time? 
• When Kaladin snapped and went full berserker against Pursuer, his Investiture was corrupted by Odium's influence but we know corrupted investiture exhibits abnormal behaviour in surges like Renarin's futuresight. Kaladin's powers remained same, Honor's true surge. Notably, he also had a great deal of control over them-- super power control despite having almost cutting all ties from his Ideals after Teft died. 
• Many think that Kaladin jumped from tower as a nod to what he couldn't do in Honor's Chasms but...here Kal not only jumped because he was giving up but he also jumped to protect his father--a last attempt that pushed Odium back. Also, we never heard Odium's voice in his mind...did we? Like this creature invaded Honor's vision, Stormfather's powers but somehow still never pored into Kaladin. That is diamond will. 
• Odium wanted him as his Champion because he saw something in his futurescape about Kaladin...otherwise why would he torture him so much, so frequently? For Odium, Vyre is almost next to nothing when it comes to usage...he's just there for him to impart his Intent. 
• Kaladin IS Dalinar's champion. 

Things to ponder: 

• His senses almost becomes extremely sensitive enough like spiders to detect Pursuer without seeing or hearing him while being chased. He also seemed to have almost supernatural instincts during fights. 
• Kaladin fought two Shardbearers with his eyes closed, feeling a dance of wind around. 
• The way Cryptics near Elhokar tried to avoid when Kal came near. 'Shadows go away'  While Cryptics and honorspren don't get along too well, they don't hate each other. Cryptics clearly don't want to get detected by then they should've vanished when Elhokar was near Shallan or Renarin since both of them had bonded waaay before too. But they vanished only when Kaladin came. Even in Dalinar's presence, Elhokar was able to see shadows. 
• Tower put a damp of Gravitation but then how RL still worked?
• There must be something in future which Kaladin does that made Odium rattled enough to sway him towards him rather than killing him on first case. Why Odium wanted Kaladin as his chamption? Dalinar wouldn't fight...or if they fought...Kaladin actually won?
• Moash kept repeating that 'Kaladin Stormblessed can't be killed, he's the force of storms and storm can't be defeated.' X ten times in whole book. Why would he repeat this? What did Odium showed to Vyre?
• I NEED an explanation for deflecting highstorm with windspren. 
• And lastly......THE WHOLE FREAKING BEING Child/Son of Tanavast spoken for obvious reasons we don't freaking know! BRANDON! Every damn book!

 

So, mirthlessly, I give my conclusion that Kaladin remained awake not because of Adhesion or close to his 4th Ideal, but a mixture of thousand other unexplainable things that makes my brain go haywire. It could be a jumble of Lights, Tavanavast, Windspren control power....or maybe he might do something really important next book which will either have us broken into weeping mess. Whatever it is...I just want my Kaladin Stormblessed to be...happy for once in his life. 

It's all due to Kal's dragon DNA, being a son of Tanavast....

In all seriousness though, I think Kal is one walking the Way of Kings, on his way to take up Jezrien's mantle, Honor's King.

[Dreamwa1ker]

Love this discussion. Speaking of the whole Son of Tanavast thing and the winds responding to him etc, I had a thought. There was a conversation between Moash and Odium in RoW where Moash drops the term avatar:

RoW I-4

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“Some people say I’ve become your avatar,”Vyre said. “That you act through me, control me.”Odium laughed. AS IF I WOULD GIVE SUCH POWER TO A MORTAL. NO, VYRE, YOU ARE UNIQUELY YOURSELF. SO INTERESTING.

Then it comes up again in reference to Thaidakar:

RoW 115

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“He comes here in avatar only,” Mraize said. “We are too far beneath his level to be worthy of more.”“Then tell his avatar something for me. Tell him … we’re done with his meddling. His influence over my people is finished.”

I think there is a reason the concept of an avatar is being introduced at this point in Stormlight. I think Kaladin could somehow be Honor's avatar. This would be why he can command the winds, is hard to kill, why even when he first holds a spear it feels right and he is preternaturally gifted with it, and the winds have been guiding him as he fights even in flashbacks.

Now how this could happen as Honor has been shattered for quite a while before Kaladin is born - not sure. Maybe Honor gave this task to Syl the favored daughter before he was shattered, to find the right person. But this is my current theory for what's going on with Kaladin.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Dreamwa1ker

[DiePie]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:32 PM, CogitoErgoArclo said:

Could we be seeing the effects of Kaladin becoming some kind of Windrunner Savant? 

I do think this is at least part of the reason, while there's a WoB that says that Radiants can become savants.

Spoiler

Questioner 1

Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device?

Brandon Sanderson

All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant.

Questioner 1

So they are protected from being turned into--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarificaiton* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight].

 

And it does seem rather convenient that Kaladin's powers manifested themselves most strongly when Syl was "distant" from Kaladin, as that was when their Connection was weakest. It would also help explain some of Kaladin's super-senses/reaction time, we've seen with the heralds that those are potential affects of being a stormlight savant. The heralds had upwards of 8k years to become a savant, and no Nahel bond to help them deal with it. Which, on a tangent, would explain why Ishar can fight as if he's burning atium, being a Bondsmith savant and all.

 

Quote

I NEED an explanation for deflecting highstorm with windspren.

I always assumed that was because of a) honor being dead basically gave a buff to all the Radiants (ie allowing them to do some things that would have required another ideal that they had not sweared yet) and b) that he was close enough to the 4th ideal so that he could command the Windspren (similarly to how he does so with plate). This might also tie into Savantism and all the other things that are potentially giving buffs to Kaladin.

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

On 12/3/2020 at 4:49 PM, Stormgate said:

I'm aware that there are things going around about why Kaladin remained awake, as well as why his powers kinda worked. 

Venli asked at one point about the 9 kinds of Fused versus the 10 orders of Radiant, and which one was missing. The Fused she asked claimed Adhesion wasn't an actual Surge. This happens to be the only ability that Kaladin was able to use. Perhaps, as the most senior Wind runner, he had the closest relationship with the Surges, thus the one remaining was more powerful. It's also worth noting that the Windrunners were the only ones that showed signs of maybe kinda waking up during that time. I think this Surge was the reason. 

so the reason lift was awake was because of what? Lifelight or the cultivation power?

[Hoid the Former Drifter]

On 12/3/2020 at 6:01 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Yeah it was mentioned in the book that Adhesion is purely of honor, unlike every other surge. I'm guessing bondsmiths would wake up too, but we didn't really have a good way to test that.

As for why Kaladin was awake when the other windrunners weren't, I'm guessing it's because he was so close to the 4th ideal. Either that, or it's related to whyever the Stormfather calls him the child of Tanavast

and teft...

On 12/3/2020 at 8:10 PM, CogitoErgoArclo said:

I wonder if Zahel could have given Kaladin (and/or Syl) a few breaths (or something similar using stormlight instead of breaths)  while they were fighting at the beginning of RoW. 

Interesting theory. What's zahel doing there anyway?

Edited December 14, 2020 by Hoid the Drifter

[Wind_Breaker]

On 10.12.2020 at 5:27 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Worth noting that Teft momentarily managed to summon Phen as a blade as he approached the fourth ideal. Excuse me while I curse out Moash.

That scene had me worried Vyre would kill one more Radiant just short from their next oath. AHHH

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

4 hours ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

and teft...

What about him? He was only awake once lift woke him up

[Dreamwa1ker]

3 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

What about him? He was only awake once lift woke him up

In fact Lift had to KEEP waking him back up a couple times a day or he would slip away again.