taravangian development: is it a good or bad thing?

[king of nowhere]

i still don't know how to feel about it.

on one hand, taravangian as odium has the potential to be even more dangerous than his predecessor.

but on the other, he's still in control of himself, and he will be for at least a few years; and he has genuinely good intentions, and he even states himself that he has to plot to protect the people from himself and his shard's intent. victory for the good guys should be easier in this light.

random thought: what if odium attack on scadrial is because taravangian wants to ultimately merge shards so odium won't exhist anymore? it will certainly keep with his theme of doing bad stuff with good intentions

[Leuthie]

Taravangian as Odium is still bound by the contract that Rayse as Odium signed, so the primary conflict with Odium is still whether or not Dalinar ends up as a Fused.

The Cosmere itself has a reprieve here. Taravangian doesn't have Rayse's obsession with destroying all other Shards. However, he probably wants to be able to leave Roshar, which would be the best way to save Roshar from the Odium Shard.

The first full scene with Taravangian as Odium showed less of an internal struggle than it showed a complete multiple personality issue:

Quote

"They thought him dead. He was free...
Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!
No. No, free to plan. To devise a way to save the world from itself. He could see so far! See so much! He needed to think.
To burn!
No, to plot!
To...To..."

This doesn't bode well for anyone. The next scene showed Cultivation trying to help him. But T's response didn't bode well either:

Quote

Oh, you wonderful creature, he thought. You have no idea what you have done.
He was finally free of the frailties of body and position that had always controlled and defined him. He finally had the freedom to do what he'd desired.
And now, Taravangian was going to save them all.

These aren't the thoughts of a humble man looking to use his power to help shape a world that is great and wonderful for all. These are the types of words that despots use when they get power. They're going to fix everything!

Lord Ruler had Preservation's power for minutes and nearly destroyed Scadrial with his will to fix it and his lack of knowledge. And that was the power to Preserve.

No. Taravangian taking over for Rayse isn't going to be a good thing.

[Aleph-Naught]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:37 AM, Leuthie said:

These aren't the thoughts of a humble man looking to use his power to help shape a world that is great and wonderful for all. These are the types of words that despots use when they get power. They're going to fix everything!

Lord Ruler had Preservation's power for minutes and nearly destroyed Scadrial with his will to fix it and his lack of knowledge. And that was the power to Preserve.

No. Taravangian taking over for Rayse isn't going to be a good thing.

I was worried about his thoughts upon meeting up with Cultivation as well. I initially read it as, "you poor thing, you have let me into your house and now I'm going to kill you." But I suppose it could also be read as a genuine expression of gratitude towards Cultivation for bringing him to this moment where he was finally free of the frailty of his old body.

Bringing up the Lord Rule is a good reminder, because I think too many people are operating under the assumption that Taravangian's ascension has somehow made him infinitely more dangerous in his craftiness and plotting--but that isn't necessarily the case because his ascension didn't grant him omniscence, it didn't change his knowledge, just like how ascending didn't stop Rashek from screwing up Scadrial due to his incomplete knowledge of how to fix things. In fact, one thing I am very curious about (and can't help but wonder if Cultivation built it in as a fail-safe) is if his "capacity" has changed: does Cultivation's boon/curse still afflict him?

Taravangian's human foibles are immediately on display as he blithely assumes that Rayse's plans were all flawed, and that he now has the answer--dude has been a shard for all of five minutes and he thinks he's got a superior grasp on things in lieu of the man who was thousands of years old, wasn't even born on Roshar, was part of the original sixteen who started this whole mess in the first place, and had widely traveled the Cosmere; Taravangian himself will be blind to whatever Renarin and those around him are doing, and Odium's missteps are largely the result of this anomaly, so he should probably take a moment or two before stroking himself off about how much of a genius he is in comparison.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Aleph-Naught

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The Cosmere itself has a reprieve here. Taravangian doesn't have Rayse's obsession with destroying all other Shards. However, he probably wants to be able to leave Roshar, which would be the best way to save Roshar from the Odium Shard.

But not the rest of the Cosmere. And there I see the main conflict of the rest of SA. Rosharans want to save Roshar. Hoid and Harmony want to defeat Odium, sacrificing Roshar to do so if necessary. Rayse was irrational to the degree that those goals matched. Taravangian isn't. Cultivay=tion even made sure that she indirectly has hostages for a few generations. Taravangian is not going to destroy his heiress.

11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

The first full scene with Taravangian as Odium showed less of an internal struggle than it showed a complete multiple personality issue:

Taking up a Shard is in effect brain damage.

11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

These aren't the thoughts of a humble man

indeed they are not

11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

looking to use his power to help shape a world that is great and wonderful

That is not so clear

11 hours ago, Leuthie said:

for all.

And that is the most complicated part. Surrender to Taravangian may be possible,

21 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

I was worried about his thoughts upon meeting up with Cultivation as well. I initially read it as, "you poor thing, you have let me into your house and now I'm going to kill you." But I suppose it could also be read as a genuine expression of gratitude towards Cultivation for bringing him to this moment where he was finally free of the frailty of his old body.

Taravangian is not going to assume that she has done this out of altruism.

21 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Bringing up the Lord Rule is a good reminder, because I think too many people are operating under the assumption that Taravangian's ascension has someone made him infinitely more dangerous in his craftiness and plotting--but that isn't necessarily the case because his ascension didn't grant him omniscence, it didn't change his knowledge, just like how ascending didn't stop Rashek from screwing up Scadrial due to his incomplete knowledge of how to fix things.

Rashek, however, had only minutes and knew it. Taravangian has centuries. Impatience is not a vice he has shown much indication of.

21 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

In fact, one thing I am very curious about (and can't help but wonder if Cultivation built it in as a fail-safe) is if his "capacity" has changed: does Cultivation's boon/curse still afflict him?

It seems to me that Taravangian does not want to destroy. To rule and vanquish his enemies, yes, but not to destroy. The man is less in tune with his Shard than Rayse was.

21 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Taravangian's human foibles are immediately on display as he blithely assumes that Rayse's plans were all flawed,

Well, he had failed, had he not?

 

[trav]

1 hour ago, Aleph-Naught said:

does Cultivation's boon/curse still afflict him?

that was my first thought to. it should. Sazed, afaik, is still a Feruchemist for example.
wether thats a good thing or bad thing remains to be seen. smart day T is completely void of empathy. pair that with pure hatred...
smart day T would be Odium on steroids.

1 hour ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Taravangian himself will be blind to whatever Renarin and those around him are doing

he knows this. so... kill Renarin. problem solved.

 

Dalinar said that he can not know Taravagnians heart and therefor can not answer him.
I suppose we now get to see his real heart and I doubt its going to be like he said it is.

[thorongil]

Oh my, I never thought that Cultivation's boon would still be in effect. If that is the case, Cultivation has effectively created an infinitely more dangerous variant of Whimsy...

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, trav said:

I suppose we now get to see his real heart and I doubt its going to be like he said it is.

ah, but this is perhaps the main reason i can be mildly optimistic.

the whole "does evil for a good cause" has been done to death. and in every instance i can remember, at some point the villain showed that he didn't really care and it was all just an excuse. and it feels wrong to me. it undermines the characterization to try to force an aesop. "see, this thing is not really right, because this guy was never good to start with". Yes, but what if he actually was?

brandon does not reuse old archetypes like this. he twists them. he sees a thing done in a way, and wants to lead it somewhere different. so taravangian may well be his take on "what if the guy doing evil for a good cause does not turn out to be a hypocrite and is, indeed, genuinely trying to do good?". indeed, all the way taravangian was characterized would be completely undermined if he now just started plotting for power.

furthermore, brandon also said that making strawman enemies to pass an aesop undermines the whole aesop. again, making taravangian suddenly selfish just to "prove" that doing evil for good reason is bad would be a cheap move, and it wouldn't actually prove anything - except perhaps that you can't make a compelling argument against an opponent who has not been weakened. brandon said that he tries to give the best representation to those with whom he disagrees, and he certainly would disagree strongly with taravangian. so, i assume his intent to portray mr T as positively as possible in the circumstance will continue.

on the other hand, the main reason i can be pessimistic is that there are still 6 stormlight books, and if the main opponent was removed just like this, the remaining books would be too easy for the protagonists. unless brandon has some other more powerful villain hidden somewhere - he did that in most books, but it's hard to imagine a villain more powerful than the shard of odium - then i expect taravangian to succumb to his shard.

as an outcome, i believe having taravangian setting up some plan to make himself fail, then being consumed by his shard intent, then being the major villain for the next part of the cosmere, until eventually being defeated for good, in the climax, party thanks to the plotting he himself started while he wass still in control, would be the best way to handle him. to keep his characterization as someone genuinely trying to do good, while letting him be a villain.

he can also fully be a villain while trying to serve the greater good. perhaps he set up the attack on scadrial to make himself fail, to be destroied by harmony. and perhaps he miscalculated and will actually win. even if he loses like he wants, he'd still create incredible damage.

having him show that his real heart was black all the time, carefully hidden even inside his own pows, would be infinitely less satisfying.

[trav]

@king of nowhere
what makes me doubt that so much is Taravagnians thought about Dalinar and that he can beat him. he seems more excited about the prospect of winning and proving himself than seeing his claimed altruistic goals come true.

I don't think Taravangnian was wrong. I actually think he was right. the problem is that, ableit for a short time, he is now holding Odium and is influenced by its intent.
Ts moral code works for a true neutral. for someone who is really selfless. which he claimed that he was. trying to save as many as he could and ignoring the cost. the moment he picked up Odium he stopped being that imo. the scales were tipped in the wrong direction.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

on the other hand, the main reason i can be pessimistic is that there are still 6 stormlight books, and if the main opponent was removed just like this, the remaining books would be too easy for the protagonists.

that is exactly what has happened in the Mistborn series and it worked out good.

Edited December 4, 2020 by trav

[Aleph-Naught]

11 hours ago, trav said:

he knows this. so... kill Renarin. problem solved.

Not necessarily, now we have Rlain as a possible confounding variable as well.. if the spren corrupted by Sja-Anat is what makes his future unknowable.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Aleph-Naught
Grammar

[Aleph-Naught]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Taravangian is not going to assume that she has done this out of altruism.

...

Well, he had failed, had he not?

 

I know, it's a long-shot, I just want to hope that it's a genuine expression of gratitude--which doesn't necessarily mean he considers it an altruistic act.

Whether a plan succeeded or failed is a pretty impoverished way of examining whether it was a good one or not in the first place, especially when there is a confounding variable you have no idea exists.

[Song]

I've just been reading back through the epigraphs and noticed something very scary in Harmony's letter to Hoid (I think it's to Hoid). 

"In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most."

I think this is Brandon's way of hinting...This is the worst possible outcome. Because T is crafty as they come.

[Necessary Eagle]

Quote

But... beyond [Roshar], what of the entire cosmere? He couldn't see that far yet. Perhaps he would eventually be able to. But he did know his predecessor's plans and had access to some of his knowledge. So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presided over by broken gods.

There was so much to do. [...]

It sounds to me like he's following Rayse's plan to "kill shards, conquer universe". Just for your own good rather than Rayse's more honest murder is fun!!!1!

[Thorn]

Taravangian is Thanosesque.  His intent to save, warped by his pride and lack of humility.  He already believes the cosmere is in chaos, ruled by fools, and he can't even see that far yet. 

Now he's just compounded by the Shard's passion and fury.  

The good intentions and "selflessness" is relatable because we all like to think that's enough to justify us.  But he's nothing more than the monster he's always been.

 

[Blackwarder]

Anyone else noticed that every mention of the word bravery in ch 113 it’s with capital letter?

 

[Leuthie]

17 minutes ago, Blackwarder said:

Anyone else noticed that every mention of the word bravery in ch 113 it’s with capital letter?

 

I did notice that. Bravery also started every sentence or line it was in. It's traditional to capitalize the first word in a sentence or line. It don't think it means anything else.

[Geoffray]

14 hours ago, Thorn said:

Taravangian is Thanosesque.  His intent to save, warped by his pride and lack of humility.  He already believes the cosmere is in chaos, ruled by fools, and he can't even see that far yet. 

Now he's just compounded by the Shard's passion and fury.  

The good intentions and "selflessness" is relatable because we all like to think that's enough to justify us.  But he's nothing more than the monster he's always been.

 

And now i've the image of Mr. T and Adrotagia:

A: "Did you save Roshar?"

T: "Yes"

A: "And what did it cost you?"

T: "Everything..."

[Blackwarder]

58 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I did notice that. Bravery also started every sentence or line it was in. It's traditional to capitalize the first word in a sentence or line. It don't think it means anything else.

That what I though one my first read, but the structure of some of those sentences is weird.

[Elegy]

I think one of the main points of Navani's storyline was that two perspectives are always more efficient than one. Raboniel needed Navani's insight and vice versa. Only in this way could they discover the things they did. Now Taravangian has access to Rayse's plans - ones that he worked on for millennia - and can see their problems and his predecessor's biases.

What I'm trying to say is ... TOdium's works will be to Rayse and Taravangian what anti-Light was to Raboniel and Navani. Something neither of them could have done on their own.

[king of nowhere]

On 7/12/2020 at 1:59 AM, Song said:

I've just been reading back through the epigraphs and noticed something very scary in Harmony's letter to Hoid (I think it's to Hoid). 

"In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most."

I think this is Brandon's way of hinting...This is the worst possible outcome. Because T is crafty as they come.

yes.

on the other hand, cultivation had planned hard to get this outcome. unless cultivation is a dumbass (which, given how she manipulated the situation, we can safely assess she's not) then we can assume that she sees some gain on taravangian as odium.

21 hours ago, Thorn said:

Taravangian is Thanosesque.  His intent to save, warped by his pride and lack of humility.  He already believes the cosmere is in chaos, ruled by fools, and he can't even see that far yet. 

Now he's just compounded by the Shard's passion and fury.  

The good intentions and "selflessness" is relatable because we all like to think that's enough to justify us.  But he's nothing more than the monster he's always been.

 

actually, the reason i like taravangian is that he's a different take on the whole "do evil for a good cause" concept. always in the past i've seen the concept thrown away to pass a cheap morale, or to make a villain more hateable. i'd hate for the same to happen here. brandon can do better than this

[Song]

I think one of the really interesting thing with the Todium Development is we have three players involved in making it happen. Cultivation, Sja-anat, and Renarin.

Cultivation seems to believe that T as Odium is a positive development, but we don't know if there is more involved in her plans, even if T believes she doesn't realise what she's done.

Sja-anat seems to be using Renarin as part of her plans for Odium, but her motives will likely be focused around her own freedom or power, or her children's well-being, not necessarily the good of Roshar.

And Renarin himself seems to have some awareness of what was going to happen when he dropped off the spheres. But is he a pawn or does he have awareness of what he's done and a reason behind it?

So...did they all make a mistake? Or is there a longer game in play? I kind of hope so.

 

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Song said:

Cultivation seems to believe that T as Odium is a positive development, but we don't know if there is more involved in her plans, even if T believes she doesn't realise what she's done.

Positive for whom? Why do people always reduce this to a simplistic story?

2 hours ago, Song said:

Sja-anat seems to be using Renarin as part of her plans for Odium, but her motives will likely be focused around her own freedom or power, or her children's well-being, not necessarily the good of Roshar.

The good of Roshar does not exist. And that is kind of the point of the Stormlight Archive.  At a minimum you'd have to ask: Whose Roshar? The Singers have a valid claim.

Dalinar comes closest, but even he is only on the human side.

2 hours ago, Song said:

So...did they all make a mistake? Or is there a longer game in play? I kind of hope so.

One game? Cultivation is playing a game. Hoid & Harmony are playing a game.

[teknopathetic]

I think we need to know more about "The War of the Surges". Did Cultivation recruit Tod to fight alongside her? Will those shards redirect their energy away from destroying Roshar and instead fighting other worlds? Is the whole Tranquline Halls thing going to happen and the Singers and Humans will go off to new battles? 

[king of nowhere]

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

The good of Roshar does not exist. And that is kind of the point of the Stormlight Archive.  At a minimum you'd have to ask: Whose Roshar? The Singers have a valid claim.

 

I disagree. odium is bad for all of roshar, singers included. he will destroy them too in the long run. dalinar and kaladin are probably good for all of roshar, they would try to help the singers too.

that said, indeed, we don't know much about cultivation and we have no reason to assume she's altruistic. she may well be aiming to simply divert odium away from her.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/6/2020 at 7:59 PM, Song said:

I've just been reading back through the epigraphs and noticed something very scary in Harmony's letter to Hoid (I think it's to Hoid). 

"In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel's craftiness and the power's Intent that we should fear most."

I think this is Brandon's way of hinting...This is the worst possible outcome. Because T is crafty as they come.

Note that Saze is also well aware of what Kell did while barely able to hold the power... and knows what he’s up to now. He also saw what Ruin devised and Preservation’s even longer game. Even a ‘good’ Shard like Preservation got lots of people killed bringing his plan to fruition.

Good or Bad, a crafty mind with a Shard’s power is dangerous.

[Frustration]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:19 PM, Oltux72 said:

Positive for whom? Why do people always reduce this to a simplistic story?

The good of Roshar does not exist. And that is kind of the point of the Stormlight Archive.  At a minimum you'd have to ask: Whose Roshar? The Singers have a valid claim.

Dalinar comes closest, but even he is only on the human side.

to the contrary there is an answer, Compramise, that's what Leshwi, Rlain, the former Hearthstone Parshmen, and Venli's vision with Dalinar point to. The can comprimise they can have peace, as long as they kill Odium. It very simple really.