Why does Renarin block Odium future sight

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

So one cool thing about Renarin is that he shrouds the area he is in . Odium can’t see the future or any details surrounding the area that Renarin occupies  . I want to discuss why this is happening . 
       My best guess is the corrupted Spren he has . Thru out RoW Odium has been destroying Ja’anat Spren rather than let them bond aduone . Maybe he knows this and doesn’t want anymore blocked areas

     If I’m right the. I wonder will Rlain have similar abilities . Indeed will all the listeners who seem to bond only corrupted Spren ( venli is the exception)  maybe this will stop him from locating the Listner camps . 
     D
      But I’d like to hear any other ideas of what is giving Renarin this ability . I also considered he may have went to the night. Watcher and it just hasn’t been revealed to the readers yet.   Anyways . I think this deman

[Shard of Reading]

Personally I thought that it was because of Renarian's future sight. Similar to how atium works. Odium's and Renarians power's cancel out.

[danex]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Bored said:

Personally I thought that it was because of Renarian's future sight. Similar to how atium works. Odium's and Renarians power's cancel out.

Yeah this is what I thought too. If both people can read each other’s future, that then changed their future, which changes the future the other reads, which changes their own future, etc etc etc. it just cancels out. 

[quackquack]

Renarin definitely has something going on. His illness pre spren bond seemed suspicious to Kaladin.  Could be potential external factors at play, such as cultivation/nightwatcher/odium/heritage. 

Also, the meaning oh his name was brought up in OB. "Like one who was born unto himself " That could be a hint.  A potential re birth, or coming into himself.   

Post spren bond, Renarin was shown when the everstorm would occur.   

He was shown his own death.  Renarin death not occuring brought to tears to him, realizing that the future wasnt set.  

 The way I see it.  Renarin has a limited version of Odiums futuresight through his bond with his spren.    His spren was remade via an unmade, which is a creation/agent/extension of Odium. 

The usage of Odiums own power from could create a potential nullification of Odiums own power where Renarin phyiscal location and odiuns influence intersect.   Hence why a few people are shown to be obscured to Odium.  

Its Odiums fault, essentially.   Odiums hubris.  Its ironic since he has future sight and yet managed to obfuscate it.   

Edited December 4, 2020 by quackquack

[Subvisual Haze]

They both see the same future possibilities (Renarin is essentially hacking into Odium's futuresight).  If Odium plans to change something in the future, Renarin can respond to that planned action with his own action to potentially negate it.  From there it dissolves into an "I know that you know that I know..." intellectual stalemate.  Thus from Odium's perspective Renarin's actions cannot be predicted.

If you've read Dune a similar idea is explored there.

[UnseenCourt]

Always interpreted it to be the equivalent of atium burning Mistborns (or Seers) cancelling each other out. 

[Song]

So...we know from his explanation to Dalinar that Renarin himself believes that his ability to future-site and act accordingly is why Renarin is hiden from Odiums sight. I'm still not convinced that is ALL of why he is invisible to Odium.

Because we've seen Odium be wrong about Dalinar becoming his champion, when he hadn't had any warning from Renarin about what he saw.  There might be something Renarin did or said based on a specific vision that helped Dalinar resist, but I don't think it would be that subtle.

So, while I think Renarin's future sight is one reason that Renarin blocks Odium future site, I'm still clinging onto my theory that in part it is who Renarin is that makes him impossible for Odium to read, because he is almost an anti-Odium in terms of his ability to resist hate. So that plus his future site is the reason he is the darkness that Odium sees. So his actions as a child in continuing to love Dalinar despite everything is what ultimately led Dalinar to become a better man than Odium thought possible.

But...that also might just be because I love Renarin and like the idea that there is something character specific that makes him such a player in the story.

[Raven Wilder]

Dalinar rejecting Odium's offer happened, in part, because of how Cultivation structured his boon/curse, so in that case presumably they're the one messing up Odium's futuresight with their own futuresight.

[Jofwu]

Can I toot my own horn?

The focus of that theory was more specifically about Renarin influencing the Diagram as it pertains to Dalinar. But here's an explanation about this phenomenon in general from the ending of the post, which I quite like:

Quote

So I think this is what's happening with Renarin's blackness on "Odium's Diagram". Renarin's just one guy of course. Compared to Odium's future sight, he presents a relatively small margin of error. But it's enough to have an impact in one corner. Imagine you're a general burning atium while watching a battle unfold, as one of the soldiers on the battlefield also burns atium. That person's actions would be a mess that makes no sense of course, but he doesn't influence the ENTIRE battlefield. You can see most of it clearly. Just not that corner over there.

[StanLemon]

There is one major flaw to the common explanation of why Renarin is invisible to Odium's futuresight. It's been shown that it is possible for Shards to see around and predict other future sight, even those of another Shard let alone a more limited form like Renarin likely has. The prime example of that is Preservation playing Ruin like a fiddle. I'm firmly on board the thought that their has to be some trait Renarin has beyond just future sight that lets him be unseen by Odium.

[Leuthie]

Not all Shards have the same abilities to see the future. Their Intent seems to have an effect on their future sight. Cultivation has to see into the future to prepare things for growth. Odium has to see into the future to properly establish his Hate. Preservation has to see future threats to be able to Preserve. Entropy (a better name for Ruin) is a current thing that doesn't care about the future (aside from it being simpler than the present). Honor is about keeping oaths and oaths are made in the past. Etc.

In any case, future sight wasn't required for Preservation to play Ruin like a fiddle. Although I don't remember the fight between those two being that one sided. I might be misremembering, but Leras died first and Ati would have won if Marsh hadn't broken away long enough to take Vin's earring out.

[StanLemon]

Preservation performed a Thanatos Gambit. The only way he could be Ruin was to sacrifice himself, but he set things up so well that he engineered at minimum a thousand years in advance for Sazed to pick up both Shards. This is despite any future sight use Ruin used, which he had to with the way he planned for his own release considering his manipulations of Vin and Zane at minimum. Preservation accounted for all of that.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Not all Shards have the same abilities to see the future. Their Intent seems to have an effect on their future sight. Cultivation has to see into the future to prepare things for growth. Odium has to see into the future to properly establish his Hate. Preservation has to see future threats to be able to Preserve. Entropy (a better name for Ruin) is a current thing that doesn't care about the future (aside from it being simpler than the present). Honor is about keeping oaths and oaths are made in the past. Etc.

In any case, future sight wasn't required for Preservation to play Ruin like a fiddle. Although I don't remember the fight between those two being that one sided. I might be misremembering, but Leras died first and Ati would have won if Marsh hadn't broken away long enough to take Vin's earring out.

You mean if Kell hadn’t tricked Ruin, knowing Marsh would take the chance as soon as it was offered. Which Marsh did.

Which only occurred because Preservation Preserved Kell so Kell could hold Preservation...

[Shob the Voidbringer]

anyway, Renarin's doesn't just have future sight, because he was able to show moash a vision of if he hadn't followed odium, which is entirely different

[jamesbondsmith]

Renarin is not only a blank spot of cancelled-out futuresight, he's about as well placed as he could be. He's family (by blood or marriage) to the Queen of Alethkar, the Kholin Highprince and his wife, and the King of Urithiru and his wife (not to mention these people are respectively the first modern Elsecaller, possibly the first human to revive a deadeye spren, the leader of the modern Lightweavers, and both Stormfather and Sibling's Bondsmiths). Not to mention being an honorary member of the core of the modern Order of Windrunners and the reason for the second singer Radiant in history, and having brief contact with Odium's right hand human and the new vessel of Odium. His own future sight affects how he affects others, and that ripples out across Roshar. He's not just one wildcard, he's a wildcard that stacks the deck with other wildcards.

 

As for why he's capable of this, I don't see why the corrupted spren explanation isn't enough to explain this. We'd need to see what powers other corrupted spren grant before we can tell how unique he is.

[Leuthie]

We know how holes in future sight work. When two people can see the same set of possibilities, they become future-sight-invisible to each other. There is no way to predict what someone is going to do if that someone is reacting to the possibilities that you see, and vice versa. 

The biggest question: why is Renarin unseeable to Odium, but Odium isn't unseeable to Renarin. In other words: if Odium can't see Renarin's effects on Dalinar, why can Renarin see Odium's effects on Dalinar? The only answer is that Renarin isn't seeing HIS OWN future sight, he's seeing Odium's future sight through Glys.

Radiant spren are direct conduits to the powers of Honor (and Cultivation, maybe?). Sja Anat's corruption probably adds a conduit to Odium to the mix. In the case of the only corrupted Truthwatcher spren we've seen (until one talked to Rlain), this conduit provides some future sight. When we see Renarin share a sight with Dalinar, we see that the visions come directly through Glys. Glys literally tells Renarin that they have a vision and shares that vision with Renarin. Glys showed Dalinar the vision the same way they showed Renarin.

This would make Glys a direct conduit to Odium's future sight. So Renarin would be able to see the effects that Odium has (future sight wouldn't work very well if you couldn't see possibilities that result from your own decisions), but the possibilities presented by Renarin's reactions to those visions would be invisible to Odium. They would also, presumably, be invisible to Renarin himself. This explains why he saw Jasnah killing him and Dalinar falling to the dark side in Oathbringer. He sees what Odium sees but not exactly how he has affected those visions.

This would make Renarin's future sight incredibly useful as a recon tool, but not as useful as burning atium all the time. Renarin would not be able to see the results of his actions. He wouldn't be able to see the results of telling someone about a sight or taking direct action on a sight, so he has to be very careful in that regard. Again, going to the sight he shares with Dalinar. He and Glys had both agreed that the risk of bad outcomes from showing Dalinar were low.

So yeah, that's how I think it works.

[Kyn]

On 12/17/2020 at 5:49 PM, Shob the Voidbringer said:

anyway, Renarin's doesn't just have future sight, because he was able to show moash a vision of if he hadn't followed odium, which is entirely different

Isn’t this basically the ability of an Augur, an Allomancer who burns gold, only enhanced to apply to somebody else? If Renarin’s regular abilities grant a future-sight more like – but far more extensive than – an Oracle’s, that would be like an extension of the abilities granted by electrum. Renarin’s psychic abilities seem to do more than the similar Allomantic ability anyway.

Since electrum is gold and silver, this amplified version of Oracular powers could reasonably also encompass gold-burning Augur-like abilities that interfere with whatever Odium has that’s like an atium-burning future-sight. It’s not implausible to assume Renarin has multiple seer-like abilities these similar Allomancers would possess. Or that he might have distinct, but related, abilities related to Odium the way viewing atium shadows is related to Ruin. At least, since he’s already been shown to have combinations of stronger/farther-reaching versions of other abilities those other Allomancers would possess disparately.