Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. If a person used an aluminum spike with intent they would remove the ability to create gravitic, reverse and cohesive lashes from a windrunner but not nullify the underlying stormlight?

In alomantic burning it seems to eliminate/nullify the power source, the metal, not the ability to burn the metal. Are you saying that a aluminum Hemalurgic spike removes the underlying power not their power source? How would that even be possible without spiking both the radiant and the Spren?

Aluminum eliminates metals WHEN BURNED not when swallowed.

It destroys powers when used as a spike not a blade.

[Aspiring Writer]

@BenduLuke Let's be clear, on its own, Aluminium resists investiture, aka, it is immune to magic, you can't use surges on it, the magic cutting of shardblades don't work on it, that is its base line. How aluminum fits into magic systems is very different and you are conflating the two. What it does in one it does not do in the other and are unique to that magic systems. In allomancy, it burns the user's metal stores. It does not burn another person's investiture if you stab someone as that is an ability only an allomancer can do and is not just something that can be done. Please read the damn coppermind, it explains a lot of this.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Can we also deal with the fact that it’s theoretically possible for a Mistborn to kill a Spren with Duralumin empowered chromium? Because that a rather important factor that appears to have been overlooked.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Can we also deal with the fact that it’s theoretically possible for a Mistborn to kill a Spren with Duralumin empowered chromium? Because that a rather important factor that appears to have been overlooked.

Can you please link the WoB, the arcanum is not being nice to me.

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Can you please link the WoB, the arcanum is not being nice to me.

Ok, so I misremembered. He RAFOs if you can, but heavily implies it’s possible, just very, very difficult. My guess is nothing short of a Lerasium Mistborn could kill a Truespren, but they could injure it.

I mostly just remembered being terrified that this was even remotely possible, considering that Shallan just declared war on a Fullborn.

Questioner

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... 

Questioner

Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Ok, so I misremembered. He RAFOs if you can, but heavily implies it’s possible, just very, very difficult. My guess is nothing short of a Lerasium Mistborn could kill a Truespren, but they could injure it.

I mostly just remembered being terrified that this was even remotely possible, considering that Shallan just declared war on a Fullborn.

Questioner

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. But that kind of power... 

Questioner

Let's just say they were burning duralumin as well.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that the Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but... This type of thing is not unheard of in the Cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be really hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

That is something to keep in mind.

However given that all Nightblood could do was chip an honorblade, I don't think we have to worry too much.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

That is something to keep in mind.

However given that all Nightblood could do was chip an honorblade, I don't think we have to worry too much.

Honorblades are more heavily invested, I think. More than Shardplate Spren anyway, which is where this could play a role. Even if it’s just enough to briefly disrupt the plate, that could be enough.

[BenduLuke]

22 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

That's not how it works. Mistings who get shot by aluminum bullets don't get their power drained from them, so why are you assuming that the Radiant's stormlight would be drained?

Alright, here's my current understanding:

Winner is based on four things: Equipment, skill, oath level, and situation. If a Mistborn is given unlimited Atium, a hemalurgic minigun loaded with aluminum spikes, Nightblood, and the bands of mourning, they are gonna win. If we match Vin up against The Lopen, Vin's gonna win. (On the other hand, if we match Taln up against Vin, he could probably kill her with a toothpick). Fourth oath is a huge step up from third oath, which is in turn a huge step up from second oath. Situation is, as has been brought up, of utmost importance.

So, all other things being equal, Mistborn with Atium has a huge advantadge over most orders of Radiant of the third ideal, an advantage over fourth ideal, and is unknown versus Radiants of the fifth ideal. Without Atium Mistborn are evenly matched with most third ideal Radiants, winner generally depends on the Knight Radiant's order. Fourth ideal, advantage goes to the Radiants, but the result still depends on the order. Fifth ideal, we have no idea.

As I understand it intent matters so if you stab or shoot someone with the intent to neutralize their powers then either acts as a hemalugic spike, but is it the stormlight which is neutralized or does it flat out make them unable to use their abilities period?

22 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Aluminum eliminates metals WHEN BURNED not when swallowed.

It destroys powers when used as a spike not a blade.

What is the difference between a spike and a blade? It is my understanding that any alomantically reactive metal can be a spike depending on intent?

22 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

@BenduLuke Let's be clear, on its own, Aluminium resists investiture, aka, it is immune to magic, you can't use surges on it, the magic cutting of shardblades don't work on it, that is its base line. How aluminum fits into magic systems is very different and you are conflating the two. What it does in one it does not do in the other and are unique to that magic systems. In allomancy, it burns the user's metal stores. It does not burn another person's investiture if you stab someone as that is an ability only an allomancer can do and is not just something that can be done. Please read the damn coppermind, it explains a lot of this.

Look thanks for correcting me on Hemalurgic spikes of Duralimum vs Aluminum.

I have been over the coppermind any number of times as I have been challenged by you and others and it seems we have a difference in interpretation about the potential operation of Aluminum. Hemalugically it neutralizes powers so in the case of a radiant whose powers are neutralized by an aluminum hemalugic spike does that mean the stormlight is neutralized or does that mean they can no longer use their surges? I tend to think the stormlight (fuel like the metals) is neutralized not the ability to use the surges.

As you also commented an aluminum savant may very well be immune to shardblades since living tissue can't be cut by them and the spirit severing can theoretically be neutralized by an aluminum savant or even someone burning aluminum at the time. That could also mean they are immune to virtually any invested attack like division, soul casting, lashes and so on.

Here is another question for you Steel twin vs 4th ideal windrunner?

Insane speed, maneuverability and potentially hypersonic metal projectiles vs insane healing, flight, shardplate and possible guided missiles (multiple reverse lash small items at opponent). A steel twin might be able to exponentially accelerate any metal projectile or flight and or add any momentum they have to to the velocity of the projectile.

Does the windrunners plate and healing fail due to the barrage of fast strikes and projectiles before they hit the steel twin moving so fast as to be barely visible?

Edited December 15, 2020 by BenduLuke
spelling

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I have been over the coppermind any number of times as I have been challenged by you and others and it seems we have a difference in interpretation about the potential operation of Aluminum. Hemalugically it neutralizes powers so in the case of a radiant whose powers are neutralized by an aluminum hemalugic spike does that mean the stormlight is neutralized or does that mean they can no longer use their surges? I tend to think the stormlight (fuel like the metals) is neutralized not the ability to use the surges.

Friend, to make hemalurgy work you need to take that aluminum and stick it through their heart, so a bullet won't work and it is quite difficult to get that spike through a  person who will try and kill you.

 

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

As you also commented an aluminum savant may very well be immune to shardblades since living tissue can't be cut by them and the spirit severing can theoretically be neutralized by an aluminum savant or even someone burning aluminum at the time. That could also mean they are immune to virtually any invested attack like division, soul casting, lashes and so on.

It's possible they can heal their soul, not that they're immune, there is a slight difference, and they need a lot of aluminium to be effective because they can keep slashing until they're dead.

 

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Here is another question for you Steel twin vs 4th ideal windrunner?

Insane speed, maneuverability and potentially hypersonic metal projectiles vs insane healing, flight, shardplate and possible guided missiles (multiple reverse lash small items at opponent). A steel twin might be able to exponentially accelerate any metal projectile or flight and or add any momentum they have to to the velocity of the projectile.

Does the windrunners plate and healing fail due to the barrage of fast strikes and projectiles before they hit the steel twin moving so fast as to be barely visible?

Stell runner. They can move fater then they can blick and stab them through the slit.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Friend, to make hemalurgy work you need to take that aluminum and stick it through their heart, so a bullet won't work and it is quite difficult to get that spike through a  person who will try and kill you.

 

It's possible they can heal their soul, not that they're immune, there is a slight difference, and they need a lot of aluminium to be effective because they can keep slashing until they're dead.

 

Stell runner. They can move fater then they can blick and stab them through the slit.

I can grant that the bullet, blade, spike would need to pierce the heart a potentially difficult but not impossible task.

I don't think aluminum heals exactly other than to neutralize the damage as if it never existed and in the coppermind it says that negative invested affects may be neutralized by an aluminum savant. The reality is that there are many metals and powers which we have a limited understanding of leaving them open to wide interpretation and aluminum is one of them. We have some of its effects but not how it works. So whose to say.

I agree steel twin savant 9 out of 10 times because the windrunner can make a lucky one hit kill potentially before running out of plate and healing.

[BenduLuke]

A bronze twin would have a good chance of beating an individual 4th ideal radiant even though they have no offensive powers to speak of. Because they never need to sleep, and have insane awareness of investiture use if they were highly skilled in stealth, evasion, and martial skills particularly marksmanship if they could draw out the contest they would eventually find the opportunity to strike almost any radiant without stormlight to protect them and until that time they would be taking opportunities to wear down the radiant. The more cover the better their chance to win so long as they can avoid a toe to toe fight.

[BenduLuke]

On 12/8/2020 at 11:26 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality.  Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible,  even moreso with Atium.  The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible.  But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor,  then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks.

  Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal.  Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch,  not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. 

If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship,  carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness.  I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

I don't think it comes down to the one hit kill for the Mistborn. A skilled steel twin could strike so often and violently that they would more than likely overwhelm the defenses of any order of Radiant Knight even up to 4th Ideal.

A bronze twin has the potential to draw out a fight until their opponent is so worn down they eventually become overwhelmed because they have an awareness of where their opponent is and striking when the Radiant's guard is down while hiding and evading in between strikes. The Bronze twin never needs to sleep and the Radiant does so it would be a battle of attrition so long as the Bronze twin can avoid and escape a toe to toe fight. Given a Bronze twin's insane awareness that would be entirely possible.

[NameIess]

44 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A bronze twin would have a good chance of beating an individual 4th ideal radiant even though they have no offensive powers to speak of. Because they never need to sleep, and have insane awareness of investiture use if they were highly skilled in stealth, evasion, and martial skills particularly marksmanship if they could draw out the contest they would eventually find the opportunity to strike almost any radiant without stormlight to protect them and until that time they would be taking opportunities to wear down the radiant. The more cover the better their chance to win so long as they can avoid a toe to toe fight.

You forget the Radiant's spren.

[Bigmikey357]

@BenduLuke

Yes a steelrunner or steel compounder would have an excellent chance killing a Radiant.  But that's beyond the scope of the argument. Not even the most powerful Mistborn can move with that type of speed,  and one would likely need that to overcome the reaction time of a Radiant's always on armor.  

[IndigoAjah]

A level 4 Radiant?

 

Any Mistborn that isn't Vin with the Mists would struggle.

With enough Atium they would manage against most of them but probably not Bondsmiths. With Duralumin, they could catch a Radiant by surprise and One Hit Kill one with a rail gun shot or an unstoppable melee attack. But otherwise they are in trouble. 

 

Compounders on the other hand would be an absolute menace almost no matter which one they were, and some (Steel) would destroy a Radiant if they have enough stored Speed. 

A Fullborn would utterly wreck a Radiant. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by IndigoAjah

[BenduLuke]

16 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLuke

Yes a steelrunner or steel compounder would have an excellent chance killing a Radiant.  But that's beyond the scope of the argument. Not even the most powerful Mistborn can move with that type of speed,  and one would likely need that to overcome the reaction time of a Radiant's always on armor.  

I think it was alloy of law and they showed that a steel runner can move fast enough to be barely seen and a steel compounder would have an almost unlimited use of that kind of speed.so it wouldn't be about reaction time but how long the the armor and radiant could withstand the beating before being exhausted. I also don't recall where or even if it says the armor is always on even on a 4th ideal?

How is pitting a Steeltwin vs a Windrunner beyond the scope of this topic?

6 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

A level 4 Radiant?

 

Any Mistborn that isn't Vin with the Mists would struggle.

With enough Atium they would manage against most of them but probably not Bondsmiths. With Duralumin, they could catch a Radiant by surprise and One Hit Kill one with a rail gun shot or an unstoppable melee attack. But otherwise they are in trouble. 

 

Compounders on the other hand would be an absolute menace almost no matter which one they were, and some (Steel) would destroy a Radiant if they have enough stored Speed. 

A Fullborn would utterly wreck a Radiant. 

A Steel twin could fill their steelmind with speed like Miles could fill his goldmind with health such that there would be almost a limitless supply of speed short of being able to move faster than light.

One thing I think everyone has been assuming is that Radiant's would always have access to their shards but that is not so. Shard plate and Shard blades are totally unavailable in Shadesmar and Shardplate may also be unavailable off Roshar since it is made up of the spren of Roshar. Therefore it could be assumed that only on Roshar would a Radiant Knight have their full advantage at least until the advent of faster than light travel on Skadrial since Shardplate can't be transported through Shadesmar.

Forgive me if the next match up is a bit of a stretch. An aluminum twin vs say a Dustbringer. No flying but slippersliding available. The Dust bringer because of their greater strength and speed lands a division strike which fails then puts their shard blade right through the Aluminum Twins body. Suddenly the shardblade is neutralized causing a disruption in the bond between Dustbringer and Spren. The shock causes the Dustbringers powers to fail and the Aluminumtwin  twin slams their aluminum blade though their heart while they are vulnerable neutralizing their powers permanently and killing them. The Aluminumtwin looks down and says "Ya shudda left yer magic weapons at home ;-)".

Edited December 17, 2020 by BenduLuke

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

One thing I think everyone has been assuming is that Radiant's would always have access to their shards but that is not so. Shard plate and Shard blades are totally unavailable in Shadesmar and Shardplate may also be unavailable off Roshar since it is made up of the spren of Roshar. Therefore it could be assumed that only on Roshar would a Radiant Knight have their full advantage at least until the advent of faster than light travel on Skadrial since Shardplate can't be transported through Shadesmar.

I believe that the spren would follow the Radiant into the cognitive, as Kaladin managed to pull windspren into the cognitive in OB.

[BenduLuke]

20 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

You forget the Radiant's spren.

No the Spren might not need to sleep but eventually the human might be worn down enough to be vulnerable. Bronze savants can detect rythms so would likely be able to sense even the Spren aiding them in avoiding them.

Make no mistake I don't think a Bronze twin winning is a sure thing just a better than even possibility if they were sufficiently skilled.

[NameIess]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Forgive me if the next match up is a bit of a stretch. An aluminum twin vs say a Dustbringer. No flying but slippersliding available. The Dust bringer because of their greater strength and speed lands a division strike which fails then puts their shard blade right through the Aluminum Twins body. Suddenly the shardblade is neutralized causing a disruption in the bond between Dustbringer and Spren. The shock causes the Dustbringers powers to fail and the Aluminumtwin  twin slams their aluminum blade though their heart while they are vulnerable neutralizing their powers permanently and killing them. The Aluminumtwin looks down and says "Ya shudda left yer magic weapons at home ;-)".

Well, A-aluminum doesn't work like that. It gets rid of the alien investiture in the soul. Even if the aluminum twin managed to hurt the Radiant's Shardblade, they would still instantly die.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I believe that the spren would follow the Radiant into the cognitive, as Kaladin managed to pull windspren into the cognitive in OB.

yeah but they still can't form into armor any more than shardblades can be formed there. Besides how many Spren do you think it takes to form shardplate. Do you really think Kaladin would be traveling with a whole troop of windspren? I am not even sure someone without the travel surge could bring them across at will.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No the Spren might not need to sleep but eventually the human might be worn down enough to be vulnerable. Bronze savants can detect rythms so would likely be able to sense even the Spren aiding them in avoiding them.

Make no mistake I don't think a Bronze twin winning is a sure thing just a better than even possibility if they were sufficiently skilled.

Well, the Radiant could sleep while their spren kept watch.

Just now, BenduLuke said:

yeah but they still can't form into armor any more than shardblades can be formed there. Besides how many Spren do you think it takes to form shardplate. Do you really think Kaladin would be traveling with a whole troop of windspren? I am not even sure someone without the travel surge could bring them across at will.

We don't know that they can't form into armor. The spren travelling with the Radiant is no more ridiculous in the Cognitive than it is in the Physical.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardplate may also be unavailable off Roshar since it is made up of the spren of Roshar

SPOILERS FOR FUTURE COSMERE AHEAD:

Spoiler

In the sixth of dusk sequel brandon recently read an excerpt from, we saw a radiant in shardplate well out of rosharan bounds

 

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

How is pitting a Steeltwin vs a Windrunner beyond the scope of this topic?

Please tell me where in the Tittle or OP that says Twinborn.

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, A-aluminum doesn't work like that. It gets rid of the alien investiture in the soul. Even if the aluminum twin managed to hurt the Radiant's Shardblade, they would still instantly die.

Again I need to disagree with your interpretation on what aluminum does and I did say my interpretation may be a stretch. "If someone were able to burn the amount of aluminum needed to become an Allomantic savant with the metal, it is possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture" Shard blade damage is an effect of unwanted investiture.  If the shardblade is in the Aluminum twin it might be neutralize by like metal with the aluminum burning and the spen inside the aluminum twin might have their identity stored into an Aluminum mind, and finally since the shardblade is the heart of the spren at the time its power might be neutralize as a hemalugic affect. Brandon has not come out on what the compounding effect of aluminum is so my interpretation of what might happen is valid until he does.

[BenduLuke]

8 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, the Radiant could sleep while their spren kept watch.

We don't know that they can't form into armor. The spren travelling with the Radiant is no more ridiculous in the Cognitive than it is in the Physical.

and the radiant can be killed in their sleep while the Spren watches.

Kaladin did try to form Syl into a shardblade in shadesmar and it didn't work. They did try to take shardplate with them to shadesmar realm and they couldn't. Sure Kaladin walks around with a hoard of flighty air spren in Shademar? If Syl can't be a blade spren can't be armor in Shadesmar.