Nameless

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

1,817 posts in this topic

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Now, the device seems very energy efficient, lasting through the occupation, until the final node is destroyed, from a single infusion, IIRC.

I feel otherwise. This device need to have constant Stormlight supply from Highstorm, and this to protect relativly Small Area. To protect whole Building (or ship) IT will take nearly Bondsmith-ish level of power. So scaling down will take much more efford, because gemstones have limited storage.

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4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Using different sizes of gems in a conjoined fabrial attached to each other and it should work.

I'm not prepared to accept that they can break physics like this, Navani talks about having to find a way around the stress on a gem just to make the stationary floating platforms. My assumption is that such a device would break from the gems trying to move at different speeds and one ripping free of the housing or the gems just cracking from the stress.

Every fiber of my being feels that this is wrong, just like you can't make yourself run faster by pushing yourself.

In any case moving both gems takes the combined effort and the force multiplication is essentially a pulley, you can exchange distance for work (move large gem short distance to move small gem long distance) or work for distance (move small gem long distance to move large gem short distance) and I think if free energy was possible by attaching a pulley to a pulley we'd have figured that out by now.

I'd categorise it the same as, using aluminium, isolating the planes on a reverser, making both sides "reverse" in the same direction (should be possible) and pointing them up, having them fall into the sky because that way's "down" for both of them and there's no surface to stop the fall.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Only the outside is solid, we could see that when they cut away the edge, if re-sealed, but was not solid all the way through

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Because a solid glass sphere is no longer solid glass when there is a human inside.

Quote

The warform attacked the shield—and contrary to Navani's expectation, the Blade bit into the blue light. The warform carved off a chunk, which evaporated to nothing before it hit the floor—and the shield restored itself just as quickly. The warform tried again, attempting to dig faster. After a few minutes of watching, Navani could tell the effort was futile. The bubble regrew too quickly.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 61

Quote

The shield is an extrapolation of the Surge of Soulcasting. It solidifies the air in a region by persuading it that it is glass.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 49

The first quote makes more sense to me if the shield is turning the air from the pillar to the edge of its influence to glass, a solid sphere, rather than hollow, otherwise it should be possible to smash through it, and once you can do that you can get inside, if you cannonball through.

Also keep in mind that it was installed in an effort to make the Sibling trust humans, humans who had access to Plate, which should be able to smadh through in one motion.

Thus I think that the shield turning all air within its area of influence into glass makes more sense, as well as being the simpler thing to do. It should be easier to indiscriminately affect all of something in an area than a specific part of something within the same area.

Which is why I'm saying that a personal version would encase you in glass, just as it encases the crystal pillar in glass.

I'm not against more precise versions being used as half-Plate or even as armour for vehichles, but the only version we know of at present, to me reads as indiscriminately affecting everything of of whatever it's meant to affect within its area of influence.

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Even if soulcasting a solid into gas is too costly in terms of Stormlight, you can just turn it into other solids - like rock, wood, ice, and so on.

I don't think any of those would be much fun at bullet speeds either, just saying.

 

¤_¤

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4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

I feel otherwise. This device need to have constant Stormlight supply from Highstorm, and this to protect relativly Small Area. To protect whole Building (or ship) IT will take nearly Bondsmith-ish level of power. So scaling down will take much more efford, because gemstones have limited storage.

That assumes that it needed the High storms Stormlight,

And ignores the fact that the shield lasted more than a week after the gem that could be infused by the high storm was broken.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not prepared to accept that they can break physics like this, Navani talks about having to find a way around the stress on a gem just to make the stationary floating platforms. My assumption is that such a device would break from the gems trying to move at different speeds and one ripping free of the housing or the gems just cracking from the stress.

Every fiber of my being feels that this is wrong, just like you can't make yourself run faster by pushing yourself.

In any case moving both gems takes the combined effort and the force multiplication is essentially a pulley, you can exchange distance for work (move large gem short distance to move small gem long distance) or work for distance (move small gem long distance to move large gem short distance) and I think if free energy was possible by attaching a pulley to a pulley we'd have figured that out by now.

I'd categorise it the same as, using aluminium, isolating the planes on a reverser, making both sides "reverse" in the same direction (should be possible) and pointing them up, having them fall into the sky because that way's "down" for both of them and there's no surface to stop the fall.

Perpetual motion is already available with feruchemy. And why would it not work, it needs Stormlight, but inside a highstorm it is continuously renewed.

And making opposite fabrials go down isn't something aluminum can do, it would just let you move one horizontally without moving the other.

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

-Rhythm of War, chapter 61

-Rhythm of War, chapter 49

The first quote makes more sense to me if the shield is turning the air from the pillar to the edge of its influence to glass, a solid sphere, rather than hollow, otherwise it should be possible to smash through it, and once you can do that you can get inside, if you cannonball through.

Also keep in mind that it was installed in an effort to make the Sibling trust humans, humans who had access to Plate, which should be able to smadh through in one motion.

Thus I think that the shield turning all air within its area of influence into glass makes more sense, as well as being the simpler thing to do. It should be easier to indiscriminately affect all of something in an area than a specific part of something within the same area.

Which is why I'm saying that a personal version would encase you in glass, just as it encases the crystal pillar in glass.

I'm not against more precise versions being used as half-Plate or even as armour for vehichles, but the only version we know of at present, to me reads as indiscriminately affecting everything of of whatever it's meant to affect within its area of influence

The shield pushes foreign objects out, we see that when it starts up.

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9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:
Quote

The warform attacked the shield—and contrary to Navani's expectation, the Blade bit into the blue light. The warform carved off a chunk, which evaporated to nothing before it hit the floor—and the shield restored itself just as quickly. The warform tried again, attempting to dig faster. After a few minutes of watching, Navani could tell the effort was futile. The bubble regrew too quickly.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 61

Quote

The shield is an extrapolation of the Surge of Soulcasting. It solidifies the air in a region by persuading it that it is glass.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 49

The first quote makes more sense to me if the shield is turning the air from the pillar to the edge of its influence to glass, a solid sphere, rather than hollow, otherwise it should be possible to smash through it, and once you can do that you can get inside, if you cannonball through.

I didn't mean that it was hollow but that a spherical shell around a soft human is not as strong structurally as a sphere made entirely of glass, or even a glass shell around another solid object. There are videos on youtube of people shooting or otherwise damaging spheres made of solid glass. You can see there that they distribute the energy around the surface quite well, and the worst damage is from glass being layered. 

But when there is a person inside the benefit of the sphere diminishes severely. First, humans being roughly taller than wider makes it so that some parts of the sphere have less glass than the others. Next, unless the person inside is wearing Shardplate, they would still get wounded by the force of the impact going through the sphere.

10 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't think any of those would be much fun at bullet speeds either, just saying.

Sure, but a projectile made of soft or brittle material is still less dangerous than regular or jacketed lead if they hit armor.

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7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Perpetual motion is already available with feruchemy.

How and if so why doesn't the Basin run on it?

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

And why would it not work, it needs Stormlight, but inside a highstorm it is continuously renewed.

I'm assuming that this is one object with two gems mounted on it, which would tear itself apart from trying to move at two non-uniform speeds. If it's two decices the motion should stop once they line up past Shinovar, as the highstorm should be spent, windwise, at that point.

The problem isn't providing investiture, it's physical motion. To me it seems that you can't make one gem move the other by the motion induced in it by moving the other any more than you can levitate by pulling on your hair.

8 hours ago, Frustration said:

The shield pushes foreign objects out, we see that when it starts up.

Quote

Raboniel stopped and stepped back, humming to Craving—a rhythm to indicate confusion or a question. And then a wave of blue light began to expand from the pillar. She stumbled away, and Venli joined her, dashing out into the corridor—where the blue light stopped and seemed to solidify, blocking the way.

-Rhythm of War, chapter 42

My impression here is that Raboniel is startled and retreats into the corridor, not that she is pushed away, but I can see that interpretation too.

13 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

I feel otherwise. This device need to have constant Stormlight supply from Highstorm, and this to protect relativly Small Area.

Hmm, I'd forgotten about that.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

I didn't mean that it was hollow but that a spherical shell around a soft human is not as strong structurally as a sphere made entirely of glass, or even a glass shell around another solid object.

Ah, I misunderstood then.

I'm not sure how much the gooey human centre is going to compromise a glass ball several metres thick (seemingly reaching from the pillar to the corridor and at least being thick enough that you can safely hack away at it with a Blade, giving a radius in excess of 2 metres).

In any case you still have the pesky "people generally need to breathe"-problem, if all the air from your skin out turns to glass there's not gonna be a lot of breathing happening.

It'd also be unusable in formation, unless you fancy turning yourself and all your mates into modern art instead of a squad of soldiers.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Next, unless the person inside is wearing Shardplate, they would still get wounded by the force of the impact going through the sphere.

Yeah, that's entirely fair, force propagation would be yet another problem.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Sure, but a projectile made of soft or brittle material is still less dangerous than regular or jacketed lead if they hit armor.

Ah, I was imagining someone with no armour, basically just a uniform. I can't really remember what the Alethi gear is like, but the Radiants seem to just trust in their healing rather than using personal protection.

 

¤_¤

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3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

How and if so why doesn't the Basin run on it?

Put an iron ferring on top of a piston and have them store/tap as needed to make it move.

Electricity is a brand new invention they haven't integrated it into society completly.

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm assuming that this is one object with two gems mounted on it, which would tear itself apart from trying to move at two non-uniform speeds. If it's two decices the motion should stop once they line up past Shinovar, as the highstorm should be spent, windwise, at that point.

Highstorms circle the world always active, just having points of less power.

It's just a car with one set of wheels doing more work

3 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The problem isn't providing investiture, it's physical motion. To me it seems that you can't make one gem move the other by the motion induced in it by moving the other any more than you can levitate by pulling on your hair.

Only thing is, that pulling on my hair doesn't generate force at my feet, if they where connected, moving a gem five times the size of another would cause it to move the other five times the distance, which would move the first gem again, giving more force to the second.

Even if pushed a little it would continue to accelerate, excess force can be syphoned off using a second set of Conjoined gems.

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44 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Put an iron ferring on top of a piston and have them store/tap as needed to make it move.

Electricity is a brand new invention they haven't integrated it into society completly.

Pistons aren't inherently tied to electricity, they should be able to have a hydraulic society with access to infinite energy.

Thanks for explaining.

Is there a functional difference between doing that and just having a guy stepping on to and off of said piston, besides being more time and labour efficient? And should someone stepping off not be more efficient for the raising of the piston, as there's no additional weight, rather than practically no additional weight? Each time the same amount of work should enter the system, no?

And in any case, are you not using more energy to raise the piston than you gain by lowering it? A single lowering should always get you roughly the same amount of work, as it only lowers a set amount, and you lose some energy as heat due to friction. To raise it again you need to do as much work as it takes to raise the mass of the piston and a fraction of the mass of the person on top and you lose energy to friction again. You need to do the same work to raise an object as lowering the same object the same distance creates, and you will only get a set amount of work out of a piston, the only change is how fast said work is, and you lose energy to friction each time.

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Highstorms circle the world always active, just having points of less power.

You still need the device to both be light enough to be propelled by the Highstorm in Shinovar, which is described as something like the barest hint of a breeze, yet sturdy enough to survive the fury of the storm in eastern Roshar, not to mention any time the Highstorm meets the Everstorm.

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Only thing is, that pulling on my hair doesn't generate force at my feet, if they where connected, moving a gem five times the size of another would cause it to move the other five times the distance, which would move the first gem again, giving more force to the second.

OK, you have the smaller gem towing the larger one, correct? Then whenever the larger gem moves one unit the smaller moves five units, moving the larger five units, the smaller 25 units, etc? 

In this scenario, tension builds up until either a gem is ripped free or shatters against the material as neither gem or whatever you have linking them physically as infinite durability.

You also have nothing introducing energy into the system, the physical work required to move the gems remains the same, where does the energy to move the large gem four additional units distance come from? It's entirely possible that unless you can overcome the resistance of the linking material, thus destroying the device, it will just freeze in midair, as the physical link is being held taut between two points moving apart.

I can't grant infinite energy without already having infinte energy, in this case infinitely durable materials and infinite thrust to start the device.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Even if pushed a little it would continue to accelerate, excess force can be syphoned off using a second set of Conjoined gems.

How do you syphon off anything? The relative distances are absolute, no matter how much extra work you end up putting on one end the relationship between the movement of the main gems won't change.

To me it reads as though you are saying that if you could hook a pulley into itself so that work performed by the pulley causes the pulley to work and it also increases the speed of that work exponentially and I hope you understand why that looks utterly preposterous to me.

Now, I don't mean to say that you can't cheat (traditional) physics in the cosmere, see my idea of a Stormlight-powered steam-turbine for that, but I don't think that Brandon can allow for infinite energy, he seems to be sticking very much to the whole "energy cannot be created or destroyed" thing, with investiture just being another form of energy, and your device is clearly creating energy.

My current position is that your device is theoretically buildable, but will either freeze when the gems try to pull apart or that the tether breaks, unless you have infinitely durable materials and infinite energy to put against the resistance of the infinitely durable materials.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

And making opposite fabrials go down isn't something aluminum can do, it would just let you move one horizontally without moving the other.

If it can make standard cojoiners treat any direction as down (Tomor's glove) then I see no reason why that shouldn't be true of reversers.

 

¤_¤

PS. I'm really sorry if I come off as hostile, as that is not at all my intent.

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4 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Pistons aren't inherently tied to electricity, they should be able to have a hydraulic society with access to infinite energy.

Thanks for explaining.

Is there a functional difference between doing that and just having a guy stepping on to and off of said piston, besides being more time and labour efficient? And should someone stepping off not be more efficient for the raising of the piston, as there's no additional weight, rather than practically no additional weight? Each time the same amount of work should enter the system, no?

And in any case, are you not using more energy to raise the piston than you gain by lowering it? A single lowering should always get you roughly the same amount of work, as it only lowers a set amount, and you lose some energy as heat due to friction. To raise it again you need to do as much work as it takes to raise the mass of the piston and a fraction of the mass of the person on top and you lose energy to friction again. You need to do the same work to raise an object as lowering the same object the same distance creates, and you will only get a set amount of work out of a piston, the only change is how fast said work is, and you lose energy to friction each time.

True, but it's entirly possible they haven't figured it out yet, or more likely that Brandon hasn't.

The difference is the fering doesn't have to expend energy to get the piston to rise, just store weight, which only requires Brain function, so the system resets itself, instead of having to use chemical energy, to pull themselves off of it.

7 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

You still need the device to both be light enough to be propelled by the Highstorm in Shinovar, which is described as something like the barest hint of a breeze, yet sturdy enough to survive the fury of the storm in eastern Roshar, not to mention any time the Highstorm meets the Everstorm.

Oh, we aren't propelling it with the Highstorm, the Highstorm is just there to provide Stormlight.

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

You also have nothing introducing energy into the system, the physical work required to move the gems remains the same, where does the energy to move the large gem four additional units distance come from? It's entirely possible that unless you can overcome the resistance of the linking material, thus destroying the device, it will just freeze in midair, as the physical link is being held taut between two points moving apart.

I can't grant infinite energy without already having infinte energy, in this case infinitely durable materials and infinite thrust to start the device.

How do you syphon off anything? The relative distances are absolute, no matter how much extra work you end up putting on one end the relationship between the movement of the main gems won't change.

To me it reads as though you are saying that if you could hook a pulley into itself so that work performed by the pulley causes the pulley to work and it also increases the speed of that work exponentially and I hope you understand why that looks utterly preposterous to me.

Now, I don't mean to say that you can't cheat (traditional) physics in the cosmere, see my idea of a Stormlight-powered steam-turbine for that, but I don't think that Brandon can allow for infinite energy, he seems to be sticking very much to the whole "energy cannot be created or destroyed" thing, with investiture just being another form of energy, and your device is clearly creating energy.

My current position is that your device is theoretically buildable, but will either freeze when the gems try to pull apart or that the tether breaks, unless you have infinitely durable materials and infinite energy to put against the resistance of the infinitely durable materials.

If it can make standard cojoiners treat any direction as down (Tomor's glove) then I see no reason why that shouldn't be true of reversers.

 

¤_¤

PS. I'm really sorry if I come off as hostile, as that is not at all my intent.

It's a closed system, stormlight is the incoming energy, but once used it returns to the Spiritual realm, and the Highstorm draws it back out, 

You keep using pulleys but can we switch that for a bike, that has a much more similar system going, it's like this on a bike I can get it so one rotation of the peddle equals five rotations of the wheel, but Conjoined Fabrials lets me make one rotation of the wheel equal one rotation of the peddle.

If the structural integrety becomes a problem, we can simply add a fabrial to strengthen it, similar to a half-shard, or if absolutly neccesary, set it up on a shadblade.

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And in any case, are you not using more energy to raise the piston than you gain by lowering it? A single lowering should always get you roughly the same amount of work, as it only lowers a set amount, and you lose some energy as heat due to friction. To raise it again you need to do as much work as it takes to raise the mass of the piston and a fraction of the mass of the person on top and you lose energy to friction again. You need to do the same work to raise an object as lowering the same object the same distance creates, and you will only get a set amount of work out of a piston, the only change is how fast said work is, and you lose energy to friction each time.

I don't know about other attempts to get infinite energy out of Invested Arts, but Iron Feruchemy absolutely breaks the equations surrounding kinetic and potential energy, work, and gravity.

In our real world, if you perform work and lift an object up, you expend force to lift it and give it potential energy. When you release, the potential becomes kinetic as gravity takes over and it's sucked back toward the planet surface. Gravity provides "free Force" but it can provide no energy because it's always net zero, because you're expending at least as much force to lift as it will expend when it drops (then you add air resistance and thermodynamics enters the equation, so you're LOSING energy).

Iron Feruchemy breaks it, because suddenly you can lift a very very light object, and then drop a very heavy one. It's net-zero as far as Investiture is concerned, but it's NOT net-zero in physics. By lifting a light person and dropping a heavy one, you just added kinetic energy to the universe and broke thermodynamics. (You can do this reverse by lifting a heavy person and dropping a light one). While the engineering to harness this power is a bit tricky, and would be a lot nicer if we could get Iron Feruchemy to apply to objects instead of just people one day, the power *is* right there for the taking. Honestly, SoScad is probably doing similar things with their Brass Ferrings, although Heat Feruchemy seems to be more beholden to thermodynamics than Weight Feruchemy. (Or at least harder to crack since humans need a specific temperature to survive but couldn't care less about their gravitational pull)

 

Edited by The Technovore
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Discussions on how to break the laws of nature are part of why I love this place

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6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You keep using pulleys but can we switch that for a bike

I keep using pulleys because that's exactly what the so-called force multiplication reads like to me, it's a way of exchanging work for distance and distance for work.

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If the structural integrety becomes a problem, we can simply add a fabrial to strengthen it, similar to a half-shard, or if absolutly neccesary, set it up on a shadblade.

But then you need it to do enough work to overcome that resistance, and I think that even if they can take the stress of that the gems will rip out of their housings.

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's a closed system, stormlight is the incoming energy, but once used it returns to the Spiritual realm, and the Highstorm draws it back out

I can't see that, that implies that the Stormlight is providing the energy by which it moves, which does not seem to be how cojoiners work. A standard 1:1 cojoiner has you doing the work of moving 2 + decay units of mass, assuming a construction like a spanreed, where both sides are attached to roughly the same thing. A multiplied, say, 1:5 cojoiner should have you doing the work of moving 6 + decay units of mass, just distributed unequally, proportionate to the gems. In either case no energy is added to the system, just distributed.

So the proposed perpetual motion device somehow gets more energy put into it to allow the mass of the smaller gem to be used to tug the mass of the larger one along, which I don't think happens. We have no evidence of energy being added to the system, just distributed.

To move the device something has to break, the gems, the cage or the tether, I can see no other options.

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

it's like this on a bike I can get it so one rotation of the peddle equals five rotations of the wheel, but Conjoined Fabrials lets me make one rotation of the wheel equal one rotation of the peddle.

And if you modified a bike to do that you'd break a chain or something, no?

 

@The Technovore, thanks for your imput, my physics were never super high level and are out of practice.

 

25 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Discussions on how to break the laws of nature are part of why I love this place

Fair :D

 

¤_¤

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2 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I keep using pulleys because that's exactly what the so-called force multiplication reads like to me, it's a way of exchanging work for distance and distance for work.

But then you need it to do enough work to overcome that resistance, and I think that even if they can take the stress of that the gems will rip out of their housings.

The gems can obviously support an entire village, so I don't think that's a problem

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

So the proposed perpetual motion device somehow gets more energy put into it to allow the mass of the smaller gem to be used to tug the mass of the larger one along, which I don't think happens. We have no evidence of energy being added to the system, just distributed.

Why would that not work? It uses the same principles we have been shown operate, if the smaller gem moves multiple times further, it can be used to pull the larger gem, even if the gain is increadibly small it will be self sustaining.

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

To move the device something has to break, the gems, the cage or the tether, I can see no other options.

I tink you are too focused on real world physics here, the cages, are obviously secure enough, the conectio beam can be stable enough, gems can clearly handle that stress, and it's really cool on top of that, why would it not work?

8 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

And if you modified a bike to do that you'd break a chain or something, no?

No, there is nothing physically ataching them, if I need to slow it down I add resistence, so excess force goes to moving my plane, instead of making it go faster.

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The gems can obviously support an entire village, so I don't think that's a problem

All that stress is borne by, IIRC, hundreds of gems, not two.

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Why would that not work?

Because the work done to move the small gem is also being used to move the large gem, the same amount of force is acting on them and you claim that you can also add force from one to the other, creating a feedback loop. No more work is done from the small gem moving, it moves further because it's less massive. You are letting it pull another part of itself further than there is energy to move that part.

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It uses the same principles we have been shown operate, if the smaller gem moves multiple times further, it can be used to pull the larger gem, even if the gain is increadibly small it will be self sustaining.

In my opinion it can not excert the force necessary to pull the larger one, it needs external energy to sustain itself, and I've seen nothing indicating that energy is added, just distributed.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I tink you are too focused on real world physics here, the cages, are obviously secure enough, the conectio beam can be stable enough, gems can clearly handle that stress, and it's really cool on top of that, why would it not work?

Of course I'm focussed on the real world physics, I have no reason to think that, barring the obvious transfer of energy, anything here doesn't follow real physical laws.

I suppose that's the crux of why it wouldn't work to me, I can't, with my current understanding, accept that all the statements for can be true. 

And I'll have to respectfully disagree, I don't find it cool, I just find it improbable, sorry. I think you can do a lot of fun and funky things with cojoiners with isolated planes, being able to aggregate and distribute mechanical energy for one thing, but and infinite energy feedback loop does not sit right with me and does not work with my understanding of the cosmere.

I assume that we could talk this out for pages and pages without convincing eachother.

So my final statement is I think it impossible until WoB or book says otherwise.

In short, respectfully disagree, fabrial mechanics are both fun and funky.

 

¤_¤

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Posted (edited)

On 6/26/2021 at 0:38 PM, therunner said:

Lashing are not thrust

I didn't say thrust I said acceleration and Gravity is acceleration.

On 6/26/2021 at 0:38 PM, therunner said:

So you are saying that if they were wielding regular blade the result would be the same?

It is with a regular hammer! So yes a regular blade could do the same thing with the same impact and mass.

On 6/26/2021 at 0:38 PM, therunner said:

Again how do you think piercing works? The material magically vanishes? No, it has to be moved elsewhere, i.e. it needs to dent or completely break.

It is rigid and not flexible so the piece of armor displaced is pushed into the radiant with perhaps starburst cracks left behind momentarily due to the armors healing factor. Similar to how a bullet leaves a hole through glass. I don't know why this is so hard to understand?

On 6/26/2021 at 0:38 PM, therunner said:

Yes there were, but tip on end of warhammer is quite different from dagger, which is what you said they were using. Wielding a warhammer and wielding a knife are very different things, and you can put much more momentum in swing of hammer than you can in stab of dagger.

The tip isn't different the leverage behind the strike is. The swing of a hammer can generate more force typically than stabbing with a dagger, but that force could still be applied to the same point. Bullets have the potential to have an even greater ability to pierce than even hammers and bill hooks and the sort of armor damaging weapons.

On 6/26/2021 at 4:22 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd say if anything was going to pierce it'd be a Plated kick, assuming impact at the toe, but all we get is cracks.

No the area of the foot disperses the force making it a blunt strike not a piercing strike.

On 6/26/2021 at 4:22 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

A note on Plate as well, if it was as fragile as you make it out to be, would we not expect the various kicks and punches to break the Plate as you're attacking?

If plate were as durable as you make it out to be even Parshendi beating on it wouldn't crack it and cause it to leak.

On 6/26/2021 at 4:22 PM, Inquisitor #5 said:

And there we have a comparison we might be able to work with, if anyone wants to have fun with the physics of guns vs different types of rock.

I would agree. Shardplate seems more like obsidian as opposed to granite or marble. It is most effective to distribute blunt force. The less area the force is applied to the more vulnerable it is.

On 6/26/2021 at 0:38 PM, therunner said:

And again, if they were vulnerable to piercing force, why are Fused not using piercing weapons?

They are using piercing weapons they use spears.

I love the idea behind a potential personal Sybling force field. For the Sybling it seemed to need an outside source to generate it and lack of air could be a problem. It also seems that it might need to be relatively stationary. Perhaps creating a multilayered shield that has non aligned holes in each layer solves the problem of air if it doesn't need to be stationary. Even if it does it could be used for a great shelter so long as the controls can be inside which is questionable since Sybling's Shield needed external nodes to opperate.

Finally a new creative Rosharan magic idea. :D

Edited by BenduLuke
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1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I didn't say thrust I said acceleration and Gravity is acceleration.

No, you said that lashing in opposite direction acts like reverse thrust,

On 26/06/2021 at 7:36 PM, BenduLuke said:

A lash in the opposite direction acts just like hitting a reverse thrust. You must overcome the momentum of your previous direction and the force is additive in that moment until velocity hits zero. Gravity is acceleration. That also means that gravity lashings have a speed limit of terminal velocity.

which it does not, because gravitational acceleration does not cause g-forces, because it is uniform through the entire body.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force for reference)

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

It is with a regular hammer! So yes a regular blade could do the same thing with the same impact and mass.

Except with regular hammer it takes around a dozen warform parshendi (so at least 2 as strong as Rosharan) multiple minutes. Shardblade does it in 3 hits.

If you are seriously suggesting that a regular blade can break Shardplate as easily as Shardblade, you are not even wrong. Do you think no one would have noticed in the last 2000 years if that was the case?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

It is rigid and not flexible so the piece of armor displaced is pushed into the radiant with perhaps starburst cracks left behind momentarily due to the armors healing factor. Similar to how a bullet leaves a hole through glass. I don't know why this is so hard to understand?

There is nothing hard to understand, only that in order for the bullet to push the armor away, the armor needs to dent first.

Observe bullet hitting various materials at ultra slow mo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg), see how the material deforms? That is exactly what Shardplate does not do, per every single source we have.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The tip isn't different the leverage behind the strike is. The swing of a hammer can generate more force typically than stabbing with a dagger, but that force could still be applied to the same point. Bullets have the potential to have an even greater ability to pierce than even hammers and bill hooks and the sort of armor damaging weapons.

Yes, but the force is what is important, the swing gives you much more. You will not be able to stab through armor with a dagger, period, because you physically cannot put that much force into it.

EDIT: Even regular armor can stop modern small arms fire from a short distance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80ZSM6qpJw8 ), and Shardplate is better than a regular plate (and 4-8 times as thick).

 

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The tip isn't different the leverage behind the strike is. The swing of a hammer can generate more force typically than stabbing with a dagger, but that force could still be applied to the same point. Bullets have the potential to have an even greater ability to pierce than even hammers and bill hooks and the sort of armor damaging weapons.

If he is delivering the force through tip of the boot, than it could act close enough to piercing, only thing that matters is pressure (and potentially how much room there is between fibers potentially).

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

If plate were as durable as you make it out to be even Parshendi beating on it wouldn't crack it and cause it to leak.

Dozen of Singers Beating on it for minutes.

It clearly has very different material properties from non-magical materials, but you are seriously underplaying how durable it is.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I would agree. Shardplate seems more like obsidian as opposed to granite or marble. It is most effective to distribute blunt force. The less area the force is applied to the more vulnerable it is.

No, for very simple reason, Shardblades are at least as thin as edges of regular blade potentially thinner (depending on how to interpret the comment that cutting stone with them is not useful as you cannot really pull it away), so they are still quite good at resisting shard edges.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

They are using piercing weapons they use spears.

Spears are very poor against armor. And if those spears are in any way useful, why did no one use them to break Kaladin's plate, or at least easily crack a section?

Edited by therunner
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1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

So yes a regular blade could do the same thing with the same impact and mass.

You are aware that Shardblades are essentially whiffle-bats, right? A Blade has a volume in excess of a regular longsword (typical western two-handed sword), but a lower mass, with a longsword having a mass of ~1.5 kgs, and Blades being noticably lighter, so maybe between ~.5 and ~1 kgs, though those are by no means canon numbers for the Blade, just my own speculation.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The tip isn't different the leverage behind the strike is.

Really?16664.thumb.jpg.f8fcab0d6c54188c8a527e03225df783.jpgAH-4130-1.thumb.jpg.e1bdc6f945ccdd221c563d9c7b3b6ae0.jpg61oZVw1ds1L._AC_SL1182_.thumb.jpg.77a689d1fb729f098c7b2681eed92e53.jpg

Looking at these war hammers you might see that they taper to a point both from the sides and from top and bottom, in a way quite unlike most edges, giving you a metal spike.

Fs-dagger.jpg.94a36abccf8bc5754407d465564e881f.jpg18-50663-Product_Primary_Image.thumb.jpg.fedf69450be2f4a0ddaa3cf8950f1824.jpgrondel-dagger-practical-14th-century.thumb.jpg.bb3d55862dfc96df36b45e03e92aa6e2.jpg

While these daggers generally look quite flat. Now, this makes sense, the thicker the metal the harder it is to deform, and a thin steel blade bends quite easily, I could get out one of my swords and just move my hand back and forth to make the blade wobble a bit. So if you have an implement that you want to impact plate armour at high speeds, you'll want it to be sturdier that a thin knife so that it doesn't bend and break as easily.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No the area of the foot disperses the force making it a blunt strike not a piercing strike.

Which is specifically why I said assumi g impact at the toe, where the contact area is smaller. Otherwise look at Adolin's heel kick, where the impact should be focused at the sharp angle of the heel.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If plate were as durable as you make it out to be even Parshendi beating on it wouldn't crack it and cause it to leak.

I wonder what led you to that conclusion, I believe I cited the text extensively when I made my case for Plate durability, and what you mention  happens in the text, so I have no problem with it. It also seems that damage builds up with Plate, if you read the same chapter in which Sadeas is down on the ground being pummeled Dalinar notes that the hits he takes leave slight cracks as they're bouncing off, so of course extended pummeling could break Plate, just like, say, machine guns could. I just find it highly unlikely that you'll get through Plate with just a few bullets, unless you were incredibly accurate and managed to hit a moving target in almost exactly the same spot each time.

And how do you explain Plate not suffering catastrophic failure if it's so fragile?

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

They are using piercing weapons they use spears.

I should maybe have phrased that more precisely, why are they not using weapons that are designed to rip open armour, like war hammers and becs de corbain? The shanay-im are obviously acting a bit like airborne shock cavalry, so their lances make sense, but why aren't singers at large equipped with anti-armour type weapons?

 

¤_¤

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3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I love the idea behind a potential personal Sybling force field. For the Sybling it seemed to need an outside source to generate it and lack of air could be a problem. It also seems that it might need to be relatively stationary. Perhaps creating a multilayered shield that has non aligned holes in each layer solves the problem of air if it doesn't need to be stationary. Even if it does it could be used for a great shelter so long as the controls can be inside which is questionable since Sybling's Shield needed external nodes to opperate.

Finally a new creative Rosharan magic idea. :D

I think the reason the nodes where important is that they where what was generating the feild, the little glass spheres with the pillar inside.

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