Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[therunner]

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

that entirely depends on the momentum of the inertia. Just because gravity reversed doesn't mean that inertia did. instead it acts like a greater acceleration in the other direction. If you are moving with 1 G of accerleration and throw a lashing in the opposite direction of 2 G's your body would experience 3 G's of acceleration initially.

No it does not, that is not how physics of this works. First of all, inertia is not dependent on momentum in any way, usually inertia simply refers to objects resistance to changes in velocity (i.e. its rest mass), in contrast momentum is one of conserved quantities in physics describing direction of motion (and in a way 'amount' of motion, i.e how much force would be needed to slow it down to relative rest).

The users of Surge of Gravitation choose in which direction they experience gravity (and its magnitude), i.e. they move in one direction with 1G for a time and pick up speed v, then they lash themselves in the opposite direction by 2G (which cancels the previous lashings) and now experience only 2G of lashings in the opposite direction, which starts lowering their speed. Even if for some reason they would feel the need to lash themselves into to opposite direction at once, because it is Surge of Gravitation, all it would mean is that they are being accelerated in the direction with larger lashing, again experiencing no larger acceleration (as the vector sum of those accelerations would simplify as n*g - m*g = (n-m)*g).

It is like if you throw a rock upwards, it has some initial speed opposite to the direction of gravity so starts slowing down, but because of principle of general relativity it is in free-fall and so in its own frame of reference experience no force acting upon it, i.e. no g-forces in contract to fighter pilots.

The wind resistance complicates it a bit, but in a nutshell it is the only actual force the Windrunners and Skybreakers should experience.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Good point. With repeating rifles tactics change from bunched up units in the open to units under cover scattered around. One shield can only guard 1 direction at a time, but even trench tactics would allow for cross fire against a target and some of the Scadrians could bend the path of the bullets as well potentially increasing accuracy and avoiding the shield. Coinshots and Lurchers could direct more than bullets at their targets, and with Medallions there could be many of those. That is only one subset of potential metalborn enhanced soldier. With medallions you could have virtually any type of twin or compouder without regard to how rare within the population they might be.

And if the Radiant is not moving in the direction of the given encampment, i.e. they have exposed flanks, they are moving faster than most people could aim. They would be moving at hundreds of km per hour, constantly accelerating (making aiming even more difficult as you cannnot properly lead the aim) and are only human sized target, good luck finding anyone who can consistently hit such a target.

Trench tactics are not very smart when the opposing force has people that can manipulate ground, even at a distance (with the change propagating from them).

No one on Scadrial ever, not even Wax, used pushing/pulling to bend path of bullets to increase accuracy. Trying to do that is even more difficult than trying to dodge the bullets, no one has reflexes for that. Maybe bendalloy bubble could help with this, but since Wax never pushes out from it I expect there to exist some problem with acting on objects outside of it.

Depending on how exactly are Medallions made it is entirely possible that you could not increase number of Coinshots/Lurchers, only gain ability to move the power around.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not my point. I was emphasizing the difference in PSI which is a factor when bullets are considered which are not so easily avoided due to their velocity than stabbing with a sword. Stabbing with a sharp knife was a popular method of dispatching a person in full plate for several reasons. Sword slashes were almost useless but sword thrusts had the potential to pierce plate, though hammers and hooks were better at it.

Except that stabbing with knife was done to the gaps in plate, not to penetrate the plate directly. Sword thrust don't pierce the plate, hell even pikes or spear thrusts don't. The only parts of plate that were susceptible to piercing like that were the joints where the plate was weaker or not at all.

The existence of plate is the very reason weapons like polearms were created, explicitly to penetrate the plate.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't know putting a hole in rigid plate even if it seals right after seems highly likely if enough force is applied in a small enough area. Shardplate like glass, which is semi rigid, putting a hole in it without cracking or shattering it seems highly probable. I am thinking along the lines of highly focused force instead of broadly distributed force like you would get from a piercing strike instead of a slashing strike.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

By your own numbers the three rifles have nearly the same momentum. m*a. Thanks for the numbers.

 

Again, so far it does not seem possibly to get through a section of plate without breaking it outright. It does not dent, scratch or bend, and to penetrate it you would need it to be malleable to certain extent, which it is not.

Higher momentum is useful if you want stopping power without penetration, but to penetrate you need higher kinetic energy not momentum (you need to do work on the material when you are displacing it) and as elaborated in previous comment, the rifles used in Era 2 simply are not up to snuff, they are much weaker than even ordinary assault rifles used today and those don't penetrate armor.

So to summarize, you have late 19th century guns trying to penetrate in one shot armor that is at least 1cm thick (so around that of WW1 tanks) and is over twice as dense to boot (so it is actually over twice as hard to penetrate) [or over 2 cm thick, so twice the thickness of WW1 tanks, and the same density as steel], Scadrial forces have no chance of doing this even if penetrating plate without breaking section was possible.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It doesn't matter that it wasn't being used offensively Kal's contribution was still mildly enhanced human level strength.

Yes, and my point was that Kal's contribution was negligible at best, and the primary factor in the helmet cracking was the Shardblades hitting it multiple times.

If someone has shield, and you crack that shield with few hits, was it you who cracked the shield or the guy using it to defend himself? Because I am reasonably certain I could use shield even if I had no capacity to crack the shield myself.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Or just a bullet with a powerful steel push behind it. I don't actually think that Wax would need to shatter the plate just punch a hole through it like bullet through thick glass that auto repairs. The fact that Shardplate cracks and doesn't dent implies to me it is rigid and inflexible perhaps even brittle so punching a hole through it may be probable.

Shardplate is not thick glass, please stop with this misrepresentation of it. I addressed how unlikely it is to penetrate it in one shot above.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The quote below this comment is about breaking a plate, but my question is fundamentally different. I am not asking about shattering a plate but piercing it and there is a difference. Straw driven through a telephone pole by a tornado doesn't break either the straw or the telephone pole, but does pierce the pole. A bullet piercing plate doesn't necessarily break the plate or even leave a hole but still impacts the Radiant behind it. whether the bullet pierces the plate depends on the psi limit of the impact location and how much of the impact momentum can be distributed over a large enough area reducing the psi of impact. To break the plate you probably do need high explosives which coinshots could push all day long. A Lurcher might pull it into the back of the Radiant using them as a shield against the shrapnel.

To pierce the plate it by definition first needs to create a hole, to create a hole it needs to deform the material of plate, i.e. dent it. Plate does not dent, hence punching a hole trough is not possible.

If to dent it you need larger pressures than I direct you to previous parts of this comment, since you are arguing for late 19th century rifles shooting through effectively tank armor, which is ridiculous.

Also the straw and telephone pole example is a bit problematic, since both are made of wood, i.e they have generally the same properties. Godmetals and bullets don't.

A BIT LATE EDIT:

Quote

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

They weren't worried about his plate but his access to all of his abilities virtually unimpeded.

They are not worried about Kaladin, but about Jasnah and Dalinar (because they think he is fourth oath). Rabonial even explicitly dismisses Kaladin, considering him a mere soldier compared to Jasnah and Dalinar (which is a mistake on her part).

They do mention they are worried about Surges, but they still plan the entire invasion of Urithiru around getting rid just two Radiants of 4th Oath. The invasion force involved hundreds of Singers in forms of Power and tens of Fused, yet they were worried about only two 4th Oath Radiants. If this does not highlight how powerful they are, I don't what would.

 

 

13 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I lack even such a tangential interest I'm afraid, so a lot of gun related things will go over my head.

Heh, my physics is rusty, I've not really practiced it in about ten years and sometimes looking at the formulae makes my head spin. I'd say I have a fairly solid grasp on it, here let down by my massive ignorance of guns. 

I also don't have it in me to run the more complicated physics calculations and trying to research which formulae and what numbers go where, so if the discussion turns to things like tensile strength and heat capacity I'm perfectly happy for someone who has more of a head for it crunch the numbers.

Fair enough, we all have our interests.

I would personally prefer to avoid more complicated physics, since I assume most people here don't have enough physics education/experience to be able to tell the difference between correct arguments, and people just using physics words without rhyme or reason.  But simpler things like momenta, kinetic energy, density etc. are good I think.

And thank you for looking more into the plate armor and joints. I stand corrected, there does seem to be a way to do joints reasonably well with smaller plates even without magic, and the illustration do suggest number of smaller plates around joints. Now I wonder if each of those drawn plates is an individual section or not.

Edited June 26, 2021 by therunner
forgot to reply to one part, sorry for late edit

[Inquisitor #5]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not my point. I was emphasizing the difference in PSI which is a factor when bullets are considered which are not so easily avoided due to their velocity than stabbing with a sword.

Not my point. I'm saying that you'd sooner move the person wearing the plate than pierce it.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Stabbing with a sharp knife was a popular method of dispatching a person in full plate for several reasons.

Oh for the love of...

The rondel dagger was used against people in plate, yes.

And it's basically a pin the size of a dagger, yes.

And it would put a lot of force in a tiny area, yes.

But it was not used to pierce plate. 

Real life plate armour would be part of a three layer set, first you have your cloth armour, which contrary to what we see in popular culture was sturdy, a gambeson will stop arrows and prevent cuts (giving you blunt trauma instead), to get through this with a sword you'd need to saw or stab.

Next you have your maille, metal rings riveted together into a fairly stiff interlocking garment, helping absorb the resultant blunt trauma and also making you harder to stab, breaking the rings is not easy. (Also, maille behaving almost like a liquid, as in movies, is completely inaccurate, as the construction making it move like that would break under its own weight if using authentic materials.)

Lastly you have your plate, which makes you even more slash and stab immune, the only realistic way of piercing this with a sword is with what the German school of fencing calls a Mordhau (murder stroke), where you grip your sword by the blade and use it as a makeshift warhammer, using the crossguard to attempt to pierce your opponent's plate.

However, plate has a few weak points, joints, because people fight better if they can move, and eye-slits, because people fight better if they can see.

That is where the rondel dagger comes in, stabbing through the eye-slit (as Kaladin does to Helaran with a dagger) or into the exposed joint, being thin enough to slip through the rings of maille. Getting stabbed through the eye, armpit or groin is gonna ruin anyone's day.

 

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't know putting a hole in rigid plate even if it seals right after seems highly likely if enough force is applied in a small enough area.

My interpretation is that the investiture is holding it together, regardless of damage, up until the point of structural failiure, not that it immediately seals over. By this interpretation it's impossible to punch through plate without inducing complete structural failiure.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardplate like glass, which is semi rigid, putting a hole in it without cracking or shattering it seems highly probable.

Can you please cite anything like this happening or being implied? I can not remember plate breaking without the fireworks show.

The Shardplate material is a highly magical fictional metal(-ish), it does not have normal material properties.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It doesn't matter that it wasn't being used offensively Kal's contribution was still mildly enhanced human level strength.

I'd be more inclined to believe that all the significant damage might have been caused by all the people with plate and blades who he was fighting at the time.

 

¤_¤

Edited June 26, 2021 by Inquisitor #5
Spelling, a word, ¤_¤

[BenduLuke]

10 hours ago, therunner said:

No it does not, that is not how physics of this works.

A lash in the opposite direction acts just like hitting a reverse thrust. You must overcome the momentum of your previous direction and the force is additive in that moment until velocity hits zero. Gravity is acceleration. That also means that gravity lashings have a speed limit of terminal velocity.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

It is like if you throw a rock upwards,

The rock always has acceleration toward earth and when that overcomes the momentum of the throw it falls back to earth. In the moment of the release it will experience greater than 1 G acceleration or it wouldn't go up.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Except that stabbing with knife was done to the gaps in plate, not to penetrate the plate directly.

Clearly you are not understanding what I am trying to explain. Oh and they used knives to do both because they could slip between gaps and apply high pressure in a very small area. They also used things like billhooks to apply great force to a point to pierce the armor for the same reason. Bullets have a similar quality.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Again, so far it does not seem possibly to get through a section of plate without breaking it outright. It does not dent, scratch or bend, and to penetrate it you would need it to be malleable to certain extent, which it is not.

To put a hole through something you don't need to bend, scratch or dent it and it doesn't need to be malleable only sufficiently rigid at the point of impact like a bullet hole through annealed glass or straw through a pole. It is all about the PSI of impact and how quickly and widely the force is distributed.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, and my point was that Kal's contribution was negligible at best, and the primary factor in the helmet cracking was the Shardblades hitting it multiple times.

Yes and my point is that the limit to the impact was Kal's strength in opposition.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

I addressed how unlikely it is to penetrate it in one shot above.

No you addressed a one shot breaking of the plate, not piercing of it  and even that was dependent on many factors like what bullet was used. Even regular armor could deflect a bullet under the right circumstances.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

To pierce the plate it by definition first needs to create a hole, to create a hole it needs to deform the material of plate, i.e. dent it. Plate does not dent, hence punching a hole trough is not possible.

That is an incorrect assumption since by denting you reduce the chance of piercing it. It is plates rigidity that permits putting holes in it instead of denting it.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

If to dent it you need larger pressures than I direct you to previous parts of this comment, since you are arguing for late 19th century rifles shooting through effectively tank armor, which is ridiculous.

Not tank armor but armor that can be cracked by a normal guy using a hammer. 19th century firearms certainly have the potential to punch holes in that.

10 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

But it was not used to pierce plate.

there were weapons that literally used a dagger blade on the flip side of a hammer to pierce plate because of the greater force they could produce on the dagger point.

10 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Getting stabbed through the eye, armpit or groin is gonna ruin anyone's day.

So will a billhook through the chest.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

My interpretation is that the investiture is holding it together, regardless of damage, up until the point of structural failiure, not that it immediately seals over. By this interpretation it's impossible to punch through plate without inducing complete structural failiure.

I will admit that could be the case, but it could also be that the hole seals over after the armor is pierced since it represents such a small amount of damage to the armor overall unless the material that made it disrupts the magic for some reason.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Can you please cite anything like this happening or being implied? I can not remember plate breaking without the fireworks show.

thats just it all the fights have people hacking and slashing each other. I don't remember a scene where anyone uses a high velocity piercing weapon. The armor seems very resistant to broad force strikes which eventually cracks it. That is why the armor seems rigid to me. Rigid materials can potentially withstand broad force but are vulnerable to piercing force. If it will crack it can be pierced with enough psi.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd be more inclined to believe that all the significant damage might have been caused by all the people with plate and blades who he was fighting at the time.

The limit is still his resistance to their blows that causes the damage. The strikes may not have been with optimum force from them either (striking at about 2/3rds the length of the blade every time).

[therunner]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

A lash in the opposite direction acts just like hitting a reverse thrust. You must overcome the momentum of your previous direction and the force is additive in that moment until velocity hits zero. Gravity is acceleration. That also means that gravity lashings have a speed limit of terminal velocity.

No, that is not how that works. Lashing are not thrust, they are gravity. Gravity functions fundamentally differently, and so will not lead to the phenomena you experience under thrust.

Overcoming previous momentum has absolutely nothing to do with experienced force, only with how long it takes to reverse direction of movement.

You don't seem to understand this physics very well.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The rock always has acceleration toward earth and when that overcomes the momentum of the throw it falls back to earth. In the moment of the release it will experience greater than 1 G acceleration or it wouldn't go up.

Yes, and after you release it is in free-fall which is equivalent to being at rest, see principle of general relativity. That is what lashings do, they redirect gravity.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Clearly you are not understanding what I am trying to explain. Oh and they used knives to do both because they could slip between gaps and apply high pressure in a very small area. They also used things like billhooks to apply great force to a point to pierce the armor for the same reason. Bullets have a similar quality.

Than please explain again, but no knives were used to directly penetrate plate armor. They were looking for gaps, and joints i.e. weaker section.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

To put a hole through something you don't need to bend, scratch or dent it and it doesn't need to be malleable only sufficiently rigid at the point of impact like a bullet hole through annealed glass or straw through a pole. It is all about the PSI of impact and how quickly and widely the force is distributed.

How do you think the hole appears there? By magic? You need to push the material that is where the hole is supposed to be somewhere else, to do that you need to either deform the material (i.e. dent it) or remove it entirely (i.e. scratch it), you cannot wish it away.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes and my point is that the limit to the impact was Kal's strength in opposition.

So you are saying that if they were wielding regular blade the result would be the same?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

No you addressed a one shot breaking of the plate, not piercing of it  and even that was dependent on many factors like what bullet was used. Even regular armor could deflect a bullet under the right circumstances.

No, I addressed piercing it. You need to displace larger amount of material than would be present in WW1 tank, how is 19th century rifle supposed to do that? They have lower kinetic energy (so lower penetration) and the bullets are not made from modern metals (so not great armor piercing properties).

No matter how, the bullet weight ~14grams needs to somehow displace material weighting around ~100 grams and overcome the force holding the material together. Since the plate does not scratch, the force holding it together is quite large.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

That is an incorrect assumption since by denting you reduce the chance of piercing it. It is plates rigidity that permits putting holes in it instead of denting it.

Again how do you think piercing works? The material magically vanishes? No, it has to be moved elsewhere, i.e. it needs to dent or completely break.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Not tank armor but armor that can be cracked by a normal guy using a hammer. 19th century firearms certainly have the potential to punch holes in that.

Thickness wise it is tank armor, weight wise it is also tank armor. It does have different failure mode (i.e. cracking and shattering) but you are trying to convince us that you can just shoot holes through without actually cracking it, then you need to start discussing the physics of the material. The material is thicker, heavier, and the fact it shatters suggest very high tensile strength, all things that would complicate piercing it.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

there were weapons that literally used a dagger blade on the flip side of a hammer to pierce plate because of the greater force they could produce on the dagger point.

Yes there were, but tip on end of warhammer is quite different from dagger, which is what you said they were using. Wielding a warhammer and wielding a knife are very different things, and you can put much more momentum in swing of hammer than you can in stab of dagger.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

thats just it all the fights have people hacking and slashing each other. I don't remember a scene where anyone uses a high velocity piercing weapon. The armor seems very resistant to broad force strikes which eventually cracks it. That is why the armor seems rigid to me. Rigid materials can potentially withstand broad force but are vulnerable to piercing force. If it will crack it can be pierced with enough psi.

Yes, instead we have WoB that you need multiple bullets to shatter plate, and exactly zero suggesting that you can punch through without shattering it. Shardblades don't break, shardplate are made of nearly the same material and are shown to never bend, dent or scratch. Yet they can be shot through?

And again, if they were vulnerable to piercing force, why are Fused not using piercing weapons? They fought Radiants for ~4000 years, and they have access to strength far above human (not to mention they have Thunderclasts).

Edited June 26, 2021 by therunner

[Inquisitor #5]

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The limit is still his resistance to their blows that causes the damage. The strikes may not have been with optimum force from them either (striking at about 2/3rds the length of the blade every time)

It's almost like this is solved entirely by assuming that the weapons being used have a supernatural damaging property of some kind.

Quote

Elit stumbled back, wary, as Adolin swept in. The man tested forward and Adolin slapped the Blade away, then brought in a backhand and clipped Elit's forearm. It, too, started to leak Stormlight.

[...]

He stepped to the side and swung to score a slight hit on Elit's helm. It leaked from a small crack. Not as much as it should, however.

[...]

Trying to kill me, are you? Adolin thought, taking one hand from his Blade and raising it just under Elit's oncoming Blade, letting it slide between his thumb and forefinger.

Elit's Blade ground along Adolin's hand as he lifted upward and to the right. It was a move that you could never perform without Plate—you'd end with your hand sliced in half if you tried that on a regular sword, worse if you tried it on a Shardblade.

With Plate he easily guided the thrust up past his head, then swept in with his other hand, slamming his Blade against Elit's side.

Some of the crowd cheered at the straight-on blow. Others booed, however. The classical strike there would have been to hit Elit's head, trying to shatter the helm.

- Words of Radiance, chapter 53

Here we see Plate showing cracks even at minor impact, implying to me that the invested cutting definitely plays a part.

Quote

Adolin shouted, beating against Relis, scoring strikes on his helm and left vambrace, cracking the latter.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 56

Plate still resists, as seen here, Adolin notes no cracks in the helmet, helmets however seem to be rather sturdy.

Quote

As Salinor drew close for a cautious strike to feel out his opponent, Adolin twisted and fell into Ironstance, with his sword held two-handed up beside his head. He slapped away Salinor's first strike, then stepped in and slammed his Blade down into the man's helm. Once, twice, three times. Salinor tried to parry, but he was obviously suprised by Adolin's attack, and two of the blows landed.

Cracks crawled across Salinor's helm.

[...]

Salinor grunted again and Adolin raised his foot and kicked the man backward, throwing him to the ground.

[...]

Adolin stepped over the man and dismissed hia own Blade, then kicked down with a booted heel into Salinor's helm. The piece of Plate exploded into molten bits, exposing a dazed, panicked face.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 14

Here we see two poweful overhead strikes, possibly damage from impacting the ground, and then a Plated heel-kick to shatter it.

Quote

He swung, and Kaladin caught the blow on the Shardplate helm he carried, deflecting it.

[...]

Green Plate attacked Kaladin again, who deflected the blow off the helm, which cracked and began leaking Stormlight.

[...]

Kaladin ducked another blow, then slammed his improvised shield against the Blade of the other, throwing it back.

[...]

His Stormligth ran out.

Kaladin stumbled to a halt. He tried to suck in more, but all of his spheres were drained.

The helm, he realized, noticing it was gushing Stormlight from its numerous cracks, yet hadn't exploded.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 57

Here we see Kaladin impacting a Blade three times, which, per Adolin's two strikes and a kick, should be enough to shatter the helmet.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

To put a hole through something you don't need to bend, scratch or dent it and it doesn't need to be malleable only sufficiently rigid at the point of impact like a bullet hole through annealed glass or straw through a pole. It is all about the PSI of impact and how quickly and widely the force is distributed.

How, pray, do you make a hole without displacing the material.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and they used knives to do both because they could slip between gaps and apply high pressure in a very small area. They also used things like billhooks to apply great force to a point to pierce the armor for the same reason. Bullets have a similar quality.

 

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

there were weapons that literally used a dagger blade on the flip side of a hammer to pierce plate because of the greater force they could produce on the dagger point.

Could you please tell me the name of any of these weapons?

Because the spike found in war hammers, lucernes and the absolute beauty that is the bec de corbin was not a dagger blade, on account of being a spike, not a blade.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

So will a billhook through the chest.

A billhook, or bill, being a pole weapon, so I don't understand how that has any bearing on how daggers were used against armour. I agree that a bill through the chest will mess you up, in fact it'd be a lousy weapon if it didn't, it just has no bearing on the use of daggers, as it's not even the same category of weapon.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't remember a scene where anyone uses a high velocity piercing weapon.

If Plate was particularly vulnerable to piercing strikes, would the standard infantry weapon not be a variation on the warhammer or polearm? Would you not want every advantage you could get if you risked facing a Sharbearer?

We see Shardbearers warp battles by their presence, they are walking tanks with an effective instant death radious of ~2.5 metres (Blade + reach) for anyone not in Plate.

If an effective way of countering these people was accessible, as long as it also allowed soldiers to effectively face normals, would we not see a greater focus on such methods, pushing the usefulness, and thus value, of Shardbearers down?

And yet that's not how warfare looks.

I think the closest we get to a piercing weapon being used is found in the Way of Kings:

Quote

Then he raised his leg and kicked the king in the chest. The strength of the blow tossed the king backward against his desk. The fine wood shattered as the heavy Shardbearer crashed through it. Elhokar hit the floor, his breastplate cracked just faintly. Dalinar stepped up to him, then delivered another kick to the king's side, cracking the breastplate again.

[...]

He pulled Elhokar forward and slammed his fist into the king's breastplate. Elhokar struggled, but Dalinar repeted the move, smashing his gauntlet against the Plate, cracking the steel casings around his fingers, making the king grunt.

The next blow shattered Elhokar's breastplate in an explosion of molten shards.

-the Way of Kings, chapter 69

I'd say if anything was going to pierce it'd be a Plated kick, assuming impact at the toe, but all we get is cracks.

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not tank armor but armor that can be cracked by a normal guy using a hammer.

Quote

Sadeas! Dalinar thought, leaping forward, cutting down Parshendi from behind. That revealed a group of them bunched in a circle, beating on something below them. Something leaking Stormlight.

Just to the side lay a large Shardbearer's hammer, fallen where Sadeas had apparently dropped it. Dalinar leaped forward, dropping his Blade and grabbing the hammer. He roared as he slammed it into the group, tossing a dozen Parshendi away from him, then turned and swung again on the other side.

-the Way of Kings, chapter 56

An ordinary guy here played by ~20 warform listeners in a trenchcoat.

A note on Plate as well, if it was as fragile as you make it out to be, would we not expect the various kicks and punches to break the Plate as you're attacking?

Quote

"Shardplate is powerful stuff," Zahle said, not looking at Kaladin. "Controlling it is about more than punching through walls and jumping off buildings."

-Words of Radiance, chapter 44

Going by this, punching through a wall is something you reasonably can do Plated, presumably without sustaining catastrophic damage to the Plate.

Quote

Adolin slapped away Elit's Shardblade with his forearm. Shardbearers didn't use shields—each section of Plate was stronger than stone.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 53

And there we have a comparison we might be able to work with, if anyone wants to have fun with the physics of guns vs different types of rock.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Shardblades don't break

Indeed

Quote

He slammed it directly into the rock wall with the flat of the blade facing upward. He climbed up beside the sword.

Then he stepped onto the flat of the blade.

Shardblades couldn't break—they coukd barely bend—so it held him. He suddenly had leverage and good footing, and so when he crouched down and leaped, the Plate hurled him upward.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 26

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Thickness wise it is tank armor, weight wise it is also tank armor.

Interesting thing to note:

Quote

An armorer set out his boots, and Adolin stepped into them, feeling them click into place. The armorers quickly affixed the greaves, then moved upward, covering him in too-light metal.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 14

This implies that Plate is lighter than it looks, meaning it should be even thicker/bulkier, though we of course don't know if this means significantly lighter than its bulk suggests or fractionally lighter than steel but will throw you off, a bit like finding a deceptively heavy pebble or light rock.

A last thing, in Adolin's full disadvantage duel we see Kaladin stab his spear into a crack in Plate and the tip comes out bloody, showing that at least some of the cracks go all the way through. I'm not digging out the book again to quote this, it should be chapter 57 or thereabouts. This shows that my conception of plate was erroneous, as actual structural damage happens before it explodes and also that Plate doesn't seal up instantly if broken.

 

¤_¤

Edited June 26, 2021 by Inquisitor #5
Removed duplicate word

[Frustration]

Sorry I'm late

On 6/23/2021 at 3:02 PM, BenduLuke said:

A double compounder would require one medallion with two powers and a twinborn with complementary powers.

All twinborn have resonances (two powers and an effect). Like with Windrunners they have Gravity lashings and adhesion lashings and that resonates to produce reverse lashings. The resonances between allomantic and feruchemical powers have not been clearly stated as of yet but Wax's steel bubble might partially be a result of a resonance (Brandon has said it is and it isn't its a savant ability). For Wax his two powers are starting to act as one ability and he instinctively uses them in combination creating affects that other coinshots can't because of the resonance between his abilities. It is anyone's guess what the resonance between Wayne's abilities is.

Each set of twin combinations have a unique potential resonance.

I believe we have covered the fact that a resonance is not the blending of abilities, but rather an additional bonus that individuals excpirience, a f-iron a-chromiun twinborn culd have a resonance of faster metabolism for all we know.

On 6/24/2021 at 1:40 PM, BenduLuke said:

Not exactly since Kal could  and probably did lash his father to slow the fall. Changing gravity doesn't change inertia. Even though they can change the direction of Gravity they still have the inertia of their previous direction. We don't see them reversing direction at high speed but they do angle off of their previous vector and so some of the inertia or momentum adds to the new vector and affects their new trajectory.

That can be just as easily explained by saying that lashing only changes direction and that you would keep momentum, and thus only conitinue to accelerate if you chaned directions.

 

On plate, it has to crack, leaving a small opening, or break, in which an entire section shatters altogether in order to get through.

and blades breaking plate is more than likely a similar effect to being able to steelpush on Atium.

 

[therunner]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Interesting thing to note:

Quote

An armorer set out his boots, and Adolin stepped into them, feeling them click into place. The armorers quickly affixed the greaves, then moved upward, covering him in too-light metal.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 14

This implies that Plate is lighter than it looks, meaning it should be even thicker/bulkier, though we of course don't know if this means significantly lighter than its bulk suggests or fractionally lighter than steel but will throw you off, a bit like finding a deceptively heavy pebble or light rock.

Interesting, however also note that whenever Shardplate becomes damaged, the user notes it starts to feel heavier, implying that the effect which makes it feel light is dependent on plate working properly, possibly the same as the enhanced strength.

In WoK, chapter 58, pg. 915 (in my edition at least), Dalinar describes Shardplate as weighing over 100 stoneweights, and stone generally denotes weight of 6kg (although it could range from 3 to 15, depending on location). Lower gravity of Roshar would not have much impact on this, as both plate and stone would be relatively 'lighter' by the same factor, so their ratio would remain unchanged. Even assuming the lower bound of mass and density of steel would give Shardplate thickness over 1 cm, so still like WW1 tank.

7 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

A last thing, in Adolin's full disadvantage duel we see Kaladin stab his spear into a crack in Plate and the tip comes out bloody, showing that at least some of the cracks go all the way through. I'm not digging out the book again to quote this, it should be chapter 57 or thereabouts. This shows that my conception of plate was erroneous, as actual structural damage happens before it explodes and also that Plate doesn't seal up instantly if broken.

Good point, it is in chapter 57 of WoR shortly after its start. Kaladin rams his spear into a crack in Relin's vambrace and the tip is a bit bloody. showing that some cracks can go all the way through. However, at this point Relis also has cracked chestplate (even from two hits), yet Kaladin notes that only the vambrace and the eye-slit are weak spots, suggesting that the crack in vambrace was unusually large, or that it was close to shattering completely.

Either way however, it does show that cracks can lead all the way through. In light of this I think that if you could create deep enough cracks with a first shot, and place the second into the crack you could shoot someone in plate without shattering a section. However, I don't think this would be a shot that can be done with any consistency, considering the speed of Shardbearers, the size of cracks and the average accuracy of firearms.

[Inquisitor #5]

58 minutes ago, therunner said:

Interesting, however also note that whenever Shardplate becomes damaged, the user notes it starts to feel heavier, implying that the effect which makes it feel light is dependent on plate working properly, possibly the same as the enhanced strength.

That's entirely fair and I'm not contesting that Plate is hecka heavy, it might just be deceptively light for its size, and losing the enhanced strength would inherently make it feel heavier on your body, no?

But yeah, I could see this going either way.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Good point, it is in chapter 57 of WoR shortly after its start. Kaladin rams his spear into a crack in Relin's vambrace and the tip is a bit bloody. showing that some cracks can go all the way through. However, at this point Relis also has cracked chestplate (even from two hits), yet Kaladin notes that only the vambrace and the eye-slit are weak spots, suggesting that the crack in vambrace was unusually large, or that it was close to shattering completely.

Yeah, I don't mean to imply that crack = hole all the way through in every case.

I wanted to include this out of a desire for intellectual honesty, I found evidence counter to my position while researching and it would have felt wrong to not include.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

In light of this I think that if you could create deep enough cracks with a first shot, and place the second into the crack you could shoot someone in plate without shattering a section. However, I don't think this would be a shot that can be done with any consistency, considering the speed of Shardbearers, the size of cracks and the average accuracy of firearms.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree. I could see Wax doing it as a once off trick shot, a bit like the bullet-bullet headshot in Alloy, though nowhere near as impossible.

And in the case Radiants you of course have to contend with the fact that even if you make the shot, the person inside the armour heals.

 

¤_¤

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Either way however, it does show that cracks can lead all the way through. In light of this I think that if you could create deep enough cracks with a first shot, and place the second into the crack you could shoot someone in plate without shattering a section. However, I don't think this would be a shot that can be done with any consistency, considering the speed of Shardbearers, the size of cracks and the average accuracy of firearms.

But this can be overcome by some special amunition. I feel like HEAT or HESH warheads should be VERY effective against Shardplate. Ammunition of this type was invented during WW2, but principle of operation, the Munroe Effect, was discovered in 1888.

[therunner]

35 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That's entirely fair and I'm not contesting that Plate is hecka heavy, it might just be deceptively light for its size, and losing the enhanced strength would inherently make it feel heavier on your body, no?

But yeah, I could see this going either way.

 

True but that could also mean that it is thicker than we assume, and it has relatively 'low' density. Without more precise measurement it is difficult to estimate it.

I can also see it going either way, but considering only Ryshadium can carry Shardplated warriors, and those are full 20-30 cm taller than other horses, have spren bond and stone hooves (suggesting some modification/interbreeding with local fauna) and regular horses can carry up to 200 kg without significant stress (and up to 300 kg if you don't mind putting strain on the animal), I think estimating shardplate to weight at minimum 300 kg is reasonable.

28 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

But this can be overcome by some special amunition. I feel like HEAT or HESH warheads should be VERY effective against Shardplate. Ammunition of this type was invented during WW2, but principle of operation, the Munroe Effect, was discovered in 1888.

Potentially yes, but that would depend on how precisely shardplate acts. If it acts like usual metal it would be certainly useful, but Scadrial is still at least 50 years from being able to apply that knowledge (and that is assuming they know the principle of operation). I mean cars and electric lights were invented in the last 20 years (not there before Wax left, starting to become 'common' after he returns) and based on Sazed comments they are not progressing particularly fast (he expected them to have radio a century ago).

[Inquisitor #5]

8 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think estimating shardplate to weight at minimum 300 kg is reasonable.

Yeah, that sounds fair, possibly lowballing it honestly, IIRC we have mentions of horses collapsing and getting their spines broken by people in Plate, which makes me think less "can do, with strain" and more "immediate failure," implying weight in excess of ~300 kgs.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

True but that could also mean that it is thicker than we assume, and it has relatively 'low' density.

Oh, I definitely meant that it would be thicker if the material was lighter, I believe I made reference to increased bulk in another post, maybe I forgot to, sorry if that didn't come across.

We know it's possible, if difficult, to move in Plate with a shattered breastplate, it's just noted as being very difficult, though that might of course be due to the arms and legs maintaining a boosted performance level, assuming the Plate still has power, rather than Plate being light enough to work with under human power.

I suppose this line of reasoning isn't going to be terribly more productive at this stage, as we don't have clear evidence of which properties of Plate stem from the material and which stem from the enhancement effects.

 

¤_¤

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yeah, that sounds fair, possibly lowballing it honestly, IIRC we have mentions of horses collapsing and getting their spines broken by people in Plate, which makes me think less "can do, with strain" and more "immediate failure," implying weight in excess of ~300 kgs.

We saw Dalinar riding a horse in plate in one of his flashbacks, and he was fine until he got the horse to jump, at which point it’s back was broken.

[ScadrianTank]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Potentially yes, but that would depend on how precisely shardplate acts. If it acts like usual metal it would be certainly useful, but Scadrial is still at least 50 years from being able to apply that knowledge (and that is assuming they know the principle of operation). I mean cars and electric lights were invented in the last 20 years (not there before Wax left, starting to become 'common' after he returns) and based on Sazed comments they are not progressing particularly fast (he expected them to have radio a century ago)

The Basin discovering southerners should be enough motivation to at least try catching up technologically. Their main slowing factor is Sazed making the land into a practical paradise. He practically removed the need for people to adapt, especially compared to the Final Empire. 

6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That's entirely fair and I'm not contesting that Plate is hecka heavy, it might just be deceptively light for its size, and losing the enhanced strength would inherently make it feel heavier on your body, no?

Not only strength but the plate section have to be connected to the breastplate via other parts. There were a few scenes where our characters had to discard a section because the one next to it was destroyed/depleted. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The Basin discovering southerners should be enough motivation to at least try catching up technologically. Their main slowing factor is Sazed making the land into a practical paradise. He practically removed the need for people to adapt, especially compared to the Final Empire. 

Not only strength but the plate section have to be connected to the breastplate via other parts. There were a few scenes where our characters had to discard a section because the one next to it was destroyed/depleted. 

Which isn't as big a problem for live plate, but something to note.

One thing I've been thinking about lately is can Roshar recreate the Siblings shield for personal use?

[therunner]

18 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The Basin discovering southerners should be enough motivation to at least try catching up technologically. Their main slowing factor is Sazed making the land into a practical paradise. He practically removed the need for people to adapt, especially compared to the Final Empire.

Yeah, I think that will be one motivator. The other is the potential civil war in the Basin, I am re-reading BoM now and every couple of chapters someone mentions how unhappy other cities are with current arrangement (Elendel having the most power, double taxing, etc.), and one informant directly warns Wax that Set are 'small fries' compared to the risk of civil war. If the cities go to war, that will spur their development somewhat.

And it is not like they don't have smart people working on research (see the young lady in SoS who is currently working on theory for radio), it is just that their culture and society does not value research and science too much.

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

One thing I've been thinking about lately is can Roshar recreate the Siblings shield for personal use?

What Sibling's shield do you mean?

Edited June 28, 2021 by therunner
spelling

[Inquisitor #5]

19 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Not only strength but the plate section have to be connected to the breastplate via other parts. There were a few scenes where our characters had to discard a section because the one next to it was destroyed/depleted. 

That's interesting, because both in WoK when Dalinar makes a show of how much he loves Elhokar (by beating him up) and WoR in the disadvantage duel it's noted that moving in Plate with a broken breasplate is possible, just very difficult. 

It might have to do with the gem placements, IIRC there are gems in the boots and under the breastplate, so the legs might still retain some function, even if the main nexus of the Plate is gone, along with losing most/all the enhancement benefit.

21 hours ago, Nameless said:

We saw Dalinar riding a horse in plate in one of his flashbacks, and he was fine until he got the horse to jump, at which point it’s back was broken.

Ah, thanks for the fact-check!

16 hours ago, Frustration said:

One thing I've been thinking about lately is can Roshar recreate the Siblings shield for personal use?

Shield?

Oh, the "force field?"

I'd hazard a yes. My interpretation is that this is a Bondsmith fabrial (or Bondsmith-Lightweaver/Elsecaller fabrial), I interpret Bondsmiths as being able to secondarily manipulate all the Surges, via Adhesion, with one expression of this being the Dalinar-Shallan Google Earth, err, Roshar.

The shield device is described as a constant soulcasting, or soulcasting halfway, I believe and is stated to be convincing the air around the pillar that it's glass, and we see that even if you break off a chunk of glass the air that fills the hole becomes glass. The air-to-glass function is presumably why it's made with sapphire (zephyr polestone, clear gas) and has glass orbs attached (serving as a model to the device, "make more of this") and this construction implies to me that such a device can be built to turn any essence into anything that can be stuck in the "glass"-slot.

Now, the device seems very energy efficient, lasting through the occupation, until the final node is destroyed, from a single infusion, IIRC.

However, I'd say that using it for personal protection has one major flaw, assuming the design at the tower, and that is that people generally don't do so well when encased in glass. You'd be immobile and oxygen deprived, unless you managed to make a device that created a bubble rather than a solid orb.

I could see a version that acts on the essence of foil (metal) instead, as that would presumably create a zone where non-aluminium bullets would simply puff away into something significantly less nasty, especially if you can do essence-essence conversion and just turn them into air or smoke within the area of effect.

I could also see such devices taking the role of grenades in rosharan warfare, charitably neutralising any metal not investiture-resistant/immune, neutralising both guns and unconsumed metal reserves, non-charitably encasing areas in glass.

And if we assume that the human investiture barrier can be overcome by such a device, then we could have such things as flesh-to-glass, though I'm not sure I'm willing to grant Roshar that one at present. If investiture barriers can be overcome such devices could also possibly neutralise medallions and regular metalminds.

On 2021-06-26 at 8:20 AM, therunner said:

Depending on how exactly are Medallions made it is entirely possible that you could not increase number of Coinshots/Lurchers, only gain ability to move the power around.

Small quibble that I forgot to adress when this was fresh, unless feruchemical powers behave differently from allomantic powers in medallions, duplication needs to be possible unless every southerner is born a brass ferring, and I'm not prepared to grant that storing mechanics would differ between attributes within the same metal.

 

¤_¤

[ScadrianTank]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

One thing I've been thinking about lately is can Roshar recreate the Siblings shield for personal use?

They would have to scale it down for it to be effective as a personal shield. Also, in this application, it wouldn't be effective against firearms. Regenerating armor is useful, but it doesn't help the person if it got penetrated. It seems more useful for structures and/or mechanisms than people, at least if I'm not missing anything. The coolest use for that fabrial I came up with is soulcasting air/water into air, for deep-sea exploration. But in practical terms, it could make Roharan vehicles, like the Forth Bridge or Navani's sphere, practically indestructible. 

[Frustration]

57 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

They would have to scale it down for it to be effective as a personal shield. Also, in this application, it wouldn't be effective against firearms. Regenerating armor is useful, but it doesn't help the person if it got penetrated. It seems more useful for structures and/or mechanisms than people, at least if I'm not missing anything. The coolest use for that fabrial I came up with is soulcasting air/water into air, for deep-sea exploration. But in practical terms, it could make Roharan vehicles, like the Forth Bridge or Navani's sphere, practically indestructible. 

Using it in conjunction with perpetual motion machines, on a fourth bridge-esque vehicle was a lot of what I was thinking.

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Using it in conjunction with perpetual motion machines

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that those aren't possible, personally.

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Also, in this application, it wouldn't be effective against firearms.

Why not? It's a solid sphere of glass, I don't think handheld weapons are going to be much use. 

Now, as I detailed above, I don't think it'd make for good personal protection, unless you fancy being a well protected corpse.

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The coolest use for that fabrial I came up with is soulcasting air/water into air, for deep-sea exploration.

I like this idea, seems like the same kind of thinking as my de-bulleting application.

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

But in practical terms, it could make Roharan vehicles, like the Forth Bridge or Navani's sphere, practically indestructible. 

 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

on a fourth bridge-esque vehicle was a lot of what I was thinking.

I had not considered mounting it on a vehicle, I still think that you have to deal with the problem of being encased in a glass orb, either you're stuck inside something in submarine-like conditions, or the air inside also turns to glass, which is a more immediate problem.

 

Another potential application for such devices would be as doors in chokepoints, instant blast doors, enemy redirectors and the like.

 

¤_¤

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that those aren't possible, personally.

Using different sizes of gems in a conjoined fabrial attached to each other and it should work.

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I had not considered mounting it on a vehicle, I still think that you have to deal with the problem of being encased in a glass orb, either you're stuck inside something in submarine-like conditions, or the air inside also turns to glass, which is a more immediate problem.

Only the outside is solid, we could see that when they cut away the edge, if re-sealed, but was not solid all the way through 

[ScadrianTank]

9 minutes ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Why not? It's a solid sphere of glass, I don't think handheld weapons are going to be much use. 

Because a solid glass sphere is no longer solid glass when there is a human inside. And I was thinking that a personal armor suit wouldn't be a literal glass sphere, but a regular piece of armor that can regrow on its own. 

[Frustration]

Just now, ScadrianTank said:

Because a solid glass sphere is no longer solid glass when there is a human inside. And I was thinking that a personal armor suit wouldn't be a literal glass sphere, but a regular piece of armor that can regrow on its own. 

Well put a hollow sphere, around a guy in shardplate, let him get reallly close without risking his armor, then turn the sheild off to fight.

[ScadrianTank]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well put a hollow sphere, around a guy in shardplate, let him get reallly close without risking his armor, then turn the sheild off to fight.

Radiant hamsters are the best thing I heard today.

[SirFlapFla]

I have always felt that a radiant could win against any metal born except a gold compounder or a full mistborn who is also a full feruchemist 

[ScadrianTank]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I could see a version that acts on the essence of foil (metal) instead, as that would presumably create a zone where non-aluminium bullets would simply puff away into something significantly less nasty, especially if you can do essence-essence conversion and just turn them into air or smoke within the area of effect.

Even if soulcasting a solid into gas is too costly in terms of Stormlight, you can just turn it into other solids - like rock, wood, ice, and so on. Should be extremely effective regardless.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I had not considered mounting it on a vehicle, I still think that you have to deal with the problem of being encased in a glass orb, either you're stuck inside something in submarine-like conditions, or the air inside also turns to glass, which is a more immediate problem.

The minimal viable version would be attached to a separate hull/armor plate and soulcast air into necessary material. I think that it should be possible to attach that fabrial to the entire hull, but who knows.