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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, I completely agree, the mechanics of the Bands and the mechanics of the medallions seem to not quite be the same in any case, what with medallions apparently not running out of f-nicrosil. As far as we know the Bands are a one of a kind object that most people don't have the know-how, let alone ability, to replicate, and unlike the medallions the Bands can run dry and if you wish to pull Rashek level shenanigans they'll run dry quickly.

I'd say they're a great asset in a hypothetical confrontation, but one that has to be deployed very carefully.

 

¤_¤

Medallions are interesting that way, and it's probably because of what's mentioned here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e11247

So Medallions store Invested abilities like copperminds, where you take them out, use them, and put them back. I don't think normal F-Nicrosil works this way, if solely for the reason that compounding it for a Mistborn would be most busted thing in the Cosmere and I don't think Brandon would allow that.

That the Bands run out somewhat supports this--the Bands use normal F-Nicrosil, which is filled and tapped just like Iron, Steel, and most other metalminds. This would make the compounding more balanced, since a Mistborn with F-Nicrosil would be able to briefly become stupid powerful, but not permanently and infinitely.

Edit: Btw, if it turns out that normal F-Nicrosil does work this way, I'm dropping everything and immediately giving Scadrial the win. Being able to compound anyone's abilities to stupidly-high maxed-out levels with just a couple spikes/a single A-Nicrosil/F-Nicrosil Medallion trumps basically everything. (Imagine a Pewterarm that essentially maxing out Tension on themselves all the time and basically does not feel pain, or a Coinshot that can sense and manipulate trace metals. Nuh-uh.)

Edited by The Technovore
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37 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

So Medallions store Invested abilities like copperminds, where you take them out, use them, and put them back. I don't think normal F-Nicrosil works this way, if solely for the reason that compounding it for a Mistborn would be most busted thing in the Cosmere and I don't think Brandon would allow that.

Yeah, I can't see Brandon allowing that, if nothing else because of Sanderson's Second Law:

Quote
Limitations > Power

The limitations of a magic system are more interesting than its capabilities. What the magic can't do is more interesting than what it can.

And I don't feel like that allows for such utter roflstompage (technical term, that. :P)

1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

Edit: Btw, if it turns out that normal F-Nicrosil does work this way, I'm dropping everything and immediately giving Scadrial the win. Being able to compound anyone's abilities to stupidly-high maxed-out levels with just a couple spikes/a single A-Nicrosil/F-Nicrosil Medallion trumps basically everything. (Imagine a Pewterarm that essentially maxing out Tension on themselves all the time and basically does not feel pain, or a Coinshot that can sense and manipulate trace metals. Nuh-uh.)

I wholeheartedly agree, if that's how regular F-nicrosil works then any conflict with Scadrial is won by default, a bit like the typical X vs fullborn.

 

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I mean, the Rosharan lights aren't waveforms either, as is explicitly stated when Navani's experimenting with them.

Seeing as the pulsing of the Well has been confirmed as a Pure Tone of Scadrial I'd hazard that the mists would also respond to the correct sound.

And seeing as it was apparently confirmed that you could stick mist in a gem, it really seems to be the same kind of thing.

Wave form mechanics or wave theory is how she made anti-light. It does have some liquid or gas characteristics when we see how it moves in a vacuum or get breathed in, but to change it to its anti form requires wave theory. MIst also doesn't automatically charge gems, but Stormlight does so that implies to me that they don't act identically. Mist with people only acts similar to stormlight when a persons bond to preservation becomes much stronger like with Vin or Wax. Wax seems to have not a preservation bond but a Harmony bond so Ruin is part of it.

Sticking mists in a gem seems to require force or pressure and would be of very limited use since few have the affinity to preservation to make use of it.  Mist also acts more like a cloud than stormlight does so anti-mist if you could distill it might still be more like anti-matter. Of course Ruin and Preservation do seem anti to each other which would explain the volatile nature of Ettemetal which is Harmony or Ruin and Preservation in balance.

19 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Sorry, that question is a bit unclear to me, could you please clarify?

Sorry the question was a bit rhetorical. I was implying that medallions the Scadrian form of fabrials do use Scadrian powers and a single medallion has the potential to create a compounding Twinborn of any kind in addition to any kind of resonant Twinborn. So even though natural born Twinborns are rare a single medallion could potentially turn anyone into one and if they were already Twinborn has the potential to create a double compounding twin by complimenting them with the appropriate metal abilities.

19 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Brandon still has to work within the rules he's established. Also, I don't think that arguing that something will probably happen in the future is productive when there is no way of knowing what, if anything, will happen, as we can only work with data we have.

It is the interaction between the separate magics of Scadrial that enables him to work within his own rules to place Scadrial at the advantage. We do know there is a conflict we get that from Sixth of the Dusk.

19 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

The metallic arts are three magic systems and compounding is literally the effect of magic system cross-contamination, in isolation none of the metallic arts allow for infinite loops.

I'll grant that they are highly synergistic though.

Within those 3 magics is the ability to high jack all other magics and create synergies and infinite positive feedback loops with those as well. I have been trying to say this indirectly throughout this entire thread. I am not sure even a bondsmith could steal a metalborn's connection to their power because it would be like trying to steal their connection to their arm since it is internal to the metalborn not to an outside investiture manifestation like a Spren. A bondsmith's surges and even his bond could be stolen through metal arts.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

For the speeds I make very little assumptions.

Thanks for the sources. That is still only 90 to 180 mph of strait travel. When he depicts battles all velocities and movements are relative so it would be hard to estimate the actual combat speeds involved or their combat maneuverability.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

True, I merely pushed back on your assertation that anti-investiture is confirmed only for Roshar.

However considering the fact that Mists can be trapped in Gemstones ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A67G4ObX7CM&t=6600s ), and Preservation does have Pure Tone (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/408/#e14586), so I would expect that making of anti-mists could proceed along similar lines.

Mists don't just infuse gem stones so you still have the difficulty of storing it to begin the attempt. In book only Roshar is confirmed to have anti-investiture which makes sense since making anti light is simpler. Mists and Stormlight don't operate quite the same even if they share some properties. The real interesting thing that Navani did is open the door to transforming stormlight into anti-voidlight or any other form of investiture by use of the right tones and rhythms.  Of course a single seeker/sparker on Scadrial could quickly develop anti-investiture weapons against any form of Cosmere magic while it might take singers and humans working together to do the same on Roshar just like it took Navani and Raboniel working together the first time.

10 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The book seems to imply that the increase in Allomantic power will run out. I speculated a bit on why that is the case in a different topic, but as it stands, Scadrians don't have a way to create medallions with Bands level strength without it running out.

I was actually referring to Wax's ability to push on parts of a metal not just the metal in general which enables his steel bubble. where a large piece of an invested metal would be difficult to push a smaller portion of that same metal would have less investiture so might be easier to push. thus pushing the tip of a shardblade has the possibility of working and deflecting attacks. A small point on shardplate has an even greater chance of working. Of course a steel compounder would have both the finesse and power to potentially toss a Radiant in armor all over the place and to strip them of the Shardblade over and over or if it didn't just dissolve use it against them if they had enough metal.

@The Technovore I suspect that Soulbearers work exactly that way especially since Brandon has stated multiple times that metalarts are his favorite. Specifically coinshots. I think we will see in the next series since it is rumored that one of the main characters is a cop who uses Nicrosil. I have been trying to say that for a while now. With the ability to store Identity a Trueself might be able to store into their identity to become a Truesoul from a medallion, or any other power as well. There is something to think about.

Edited by BenduLuke
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1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

This would make the compounding more balanced, since a Mistborn with F-Nicrosil would be able to briefly become stupid powerful, but not permanently and infinitely.

1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

Btw, if it turns out that normal F-Nicrosil does work this way, I'm dropping everything and immediately giving Scadrial the win. Being able to compound anyone's abilities to stupidly-high maxed-out levels with just a couple spikes/a single A-Nicrosil/F-Nicrosil Medallion trumps basically everything.

So, I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I think that might F-nicrosil work differently with various types of Investiture.

Nicrosil part of regular medallions has the ability to use a power stored in it. Just like memories in the Copperminds, having more of the same memory doesn't improve it - you just have two copies of a thing, like copies of a file on a hard drive. So if you compound it, you don't necessarily become stronger in that ability - you get a second copy of what you already have. You can put that copy in a medallion, but you don't become the Lord Ruler by having it in you.

Compounding the Mist or Stormlight might work in the same way as other attributes since they are quantitative in nature, but memories and abilities are discrete and binary in a sense - either you have them, or you don't.

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I was actually referring to Wax's ability to push on parts of a metal not just the metal in general which enables his steel bubble. where a large piece of an invested metal would be difficult to push a smaller portion of that same metal would have less investiture so might be easier to push. thus pushing the tip of a shardblade has the possibility of working and deflecting attacks. A small point on shardplate has an even greater chance of working. Of course a steel compounder would have both the finesse and power to potentially toss a Radiant in armor all over the place and to strip them of the Shardblade over and over or if it didn't just dissolve use it against them if they had enough metal.

I'm not sure that the blade's tip is distinct enough from the rest of it for this to work, even if we assume that an Allomancer can affect a small piece of a Godmetal. Kelsier could push and pull on ends of the metal rods in the Final Empire, but he already could see them with steel sight. So even if we assume that an Allomancer could do the same thing as Wax did in the prologue of BoM and split a sword into multiple blue lines, with one pointing at a tip, to do this with a Shardblade it would have to have a blue line in a first place. 

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7 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I'm not sure that the blade's tip is distinct enough from the rest of it for this to work, even if we assume that an Allomancer can affect a small piece of a Godmetal. Kelsier could push and pull on ends of the metal rods in the Final Empire, but he already could see them with steel sight. So even if we assume that an Allomancer could do the same thing as Wax did in the prologue of BoM and split a sword into multiple blue lines, with one pointing at a tip, to do this with a Shardblade it would have to have a blue line in a first place. 

Brandon has said that a person could potentially become skilled enough to push on sections of a Metal. Kel was a mistborn and so didn't develop the finesse that Wax did with his steel pushes. Even Vin developed more finesse than he did.

It might be a tip off, that a shardblade is invested metal not aluminum, when you see it form out of thin air, and so like with the BoM once he knew it was invested he might detect it with effort. Even if a Shardblade is just to invested for a regular coinshot to affect at all that still doesn't rule out shardplate. Wax with his weight manipulation ability would have a better chance than a regular coinshot.

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36 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Wave form mechanics or wave theory is how she made anti-light. It does have some liquid or gas characteristics when we see how it moves in a vacuum or get breathed in, but to change it to its anti form requires wave theory. MIst also doesn't automatically charge gems, but Stormlight does so that implies to me that they don't act identically. Mist with people only acts similar to stormlight when a persons bond to preservation becomes much stronger like with Vin or Wax. Wax seems to have not a preservation bond but a Harmony bond so Ruin is part of it.

Mists don't just infuse gem stones so you still have the difficulty of storing it to begin the attempt. In book only Roshar is confirmed to have anti-investiture which makes sense since making anti light is simpler. Mists and Stormlight don't operate quite the same even if they share some properties. The real interesting thing that Navani did is open the door to transforming stormlight into anti-voidlight or any other form of investiture by use of the right tones and rhythms.  Of course a single seeker/sparker on Scadrial could quickly develop anti-investiture weapons against any form of Cosmere magic while it might take singers and humans working together to do the same on Roshar just like it took Navani and Raboniel working together the first time.

Just using Harmonies Tone, like you would Honor's or Odium's should work.

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Sticking mists in a gem seems to require force or pressure and would be of very limited use since few have the affinity to preservation to make use of it.  Mist also acts more like a cloud than stormlight does so anti-mist if you could distill it might still be more like anti-matter. Of course Ruin and Preservation do seem anti to each other which would explain the volatile nature of Ettemetal which is Harmony or Ruin and Preservation in balance.

Harmonium is chemically reactive

39 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Within those 3 magics is the ability to high jack all other magics and create synergies and infinite positive feedback loops with those as well. I have been trying to say this indirectly throughout this entire thread. I am not sure even a bondsmith could steal a metalborn's connection to their power because it would be like trying to steal their connection to their arm since it is internal to the metalborn not to an outside investiture manifestation like a Spren. A bondsmith's surges and even his bond could be stolen through metal arts.

it's a connection to harmony, not themselves.

40 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is the interaction between the separate magics of Scadrial that enables him to work within his own rules to place Scadrial at the advantage. We do know there is a conflict we get that from Sixth of the Dusk.

If they have the ability to multiply and split powers, as well as create anti-inevestiture for their opponents and not themselves why on earth would they take interest in FotS?

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@Frustration sorry your responses just don't make sense to me for what you quoted.

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Just now, BenduLuke said:

@Frustration sorry your responses just don't make sense to me for what you quoted.

I'm assuming all of them

if you want to put mist inside a gem just use the associated pure Tone, like you would moving Stormlight between gems

Ettmetal doesn't react due to being composed of opposite particles it is chemically reactive, Due to Sazed seeing them as opposites, which seems to just be a difference in semantics but it's a big deal.

Metalborn get their powers from Harmony, so they do have a connection to an outside entity that can be stolen.

and if Scadrial can mass produce the powers they have why would they take a look at Aviar which are just weaker Metalic arts.

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

if you want to put mist inside a gem just use the associated pure Tone, like you would moving Stormlight between gems

Ok I can see that once you discover the pure tone. If there is mist present.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Ettmetal doesn't react due to being composed of opposite particles it is chemically reactive, Due to Sazed seeing them as opposites, which seems to just be a difference in semantics but it's a big deal.

it is an alkaloid metal so can be ignited by water. The seeming degree of released energy is implied to be far more than a chemical explosion. In everything I have read Ruin and Preservation are described as actual opposites which is what restricts Harmony so much because he must remain balanced. Vin and Ati literally anihilated each other on contact like matter and anti-matter.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Metalborn get their powers from Harmony, so they do have a connection to an outside entity that can be stolen.

Scadrian's are invested from birth by both Ruin and Preservation. The connection they have is entirely internal not through an external source like a Spren. Due to the laws of investiture that almost certainly complicates stealing their connection as compared to Radiants.

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

and if Scadrial can mass produce the powers they have why would they take a look at Aviar which are just weaker Metalic arts.

No you misunderstood me. Sixth of Dusk described 2 groups in conflict in the recent short story on 1st of the Sun which seemed to be Scadrial and Roshar or their respective coalitions. that is also circumstantial evidence that in a conflict between them a winner is not as clean cut as you seem to have been saying throughout this thread. That implies to me that many of you may be overlooking some things, maybe many things.

Edited by BenduLuke
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1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

it is an alkaloid metal so can be ignited by water. The seeming degree of released energy is implied to be far more than a chemical explosion. In everything I have read Ruin and Preservation are described as actual opposites which is what restricts Harmony so much because he must remain balanced. Vin and Ati literally anihilated each other on contact like matter and anti-matter.

Each metal has a different reactivity, is it that much of a stretch to say that it was just the metal? I mean it's possible that there is some extra energy coming in, but it isn't nuclear we know that much.

And I didn't know this until recently but here is some trivia for us, Ruin and Preservation are not natural opposites, but sort of "polarized" over time due to perception

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3031

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrian's are invested from birth by both Ruin and Preservation. The connection they have is entirely internal not through an external source like a Spren. Due to the laws of investiture that almost certainly complicates stealing their connection as compared to Radiants.

If it's a connection to an entity that isn't themselves how is that not manipulable?

The land you where born in is so why is a connection to a shard different?

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No you misunderstood me. Sixth of Dusk described 2 groups in conflict in the recent short story on 1st of the Sun which seemed to be Scadrial and Roshar or their respective coalitions.

My bad I wasn't clear, if they have the f-nicrocil ability to multiply their own power, and the medallions ability to give it to others why do they want Aviar?

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1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Thanks for the sources. That is still only 90 to 180 mph of strait travel. When he depicts battles all velocities and movements are relative so it would be hard to estimate the actual combat speeds involved or their combat maneuverability.

And it is still far faster than anything present on Scadrial short of Steelrunners. Even in battle, since they can accelerate nearly arbitrarily fast.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Mists don't just infuse gem stones so you still have the difficulty of storing it to begin the attempt. In book only Roshar is confirmed to have anti-investiture which makes sense since making anti light is simpler. Mists and Stormlight don't operate quite the same even if they share some properties. The real interesting thing that Navani did is open the door to transforming stormlight into anti-voidlight or any other form of investiture by use of the right tones and rhythms.  Of course a single seeker/sparker on Scadrial could quickly develop anti-investiture weapons against any form of Cosmere magic while it might take singers and humans working together to do the same on Roshar just like it took Navani and Raboniel working together the first time.

Mists are gaseous investiture (like Stormlight), Mists can infuse gemstones (like stormlight, even if not as easily), Mists can be breathed in and power magic (like Stormlight). How are they different, outside of superficial properties (appearing in Highstorm vs appearing some nights from thin air).

Are you seriously suggesting that a random metalborn with A-bronze and F-zinc can develop anti-investiture weapons against anything? Really? Scadrians have very little knowledge about Cognitive Realm, much less about Spiritual Realm, or experience with direct manipulation of investiture.

45 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon has said that a person could potentially become skilled enough to push on sections of a Metal. Kel was a mistborn and so didn't develop the finesse that Wax did with his steel pushes. Even Vin developed more finesse than he did.

Kelsier did develop that skill, he uses it his fight with Bendak. I mean, what he did in that fight was closer to what Magneto does, not to what Mistborn do. And Vin never did anything like that, the closest she comes is her horseshoe trick, which is admittedly impressive, but not as impressive as using pushes and pulls to rotate metal rods in air in roughly the same place. Is Vin more talented than Kel? Yes. Is she a better Mistborn? Yes. Is she better at using Iron and Steel? No.

48 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It might be a tip off, that a shardblade is invested metal not aluminum, when you see it form out of thin air, and so like with the BoM once he knew it was invested he might detect it with effort. Even if a Shardblade is just to invested for a regular coinshot to affect at all that still doesn't rule out shardplate. Wax with his weight manipulation ability would have a better chance than a regular coinshot.

Except Shardblade is not invested metal, it is solid investiture, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e247) and pushing on part is more difficult than pushing on a whole. Shardplate is comparably invested as shardblades are, with blades being a bit more invested. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299)

Also Wax never comments on detecting more metal/smaller metal/metal in bodies when tapping weight, he can just push more because he is heavier.

And in BoM Wax is never shown to actually detect the bands or see them with metal lines. He is holding them after being revived, then he tosses them out of window, and in the next scene he holds them again. Never is he shown detecting them with metal lines. At least I was unable to find any such scene, if someone could please show a scene where he detects BoM with metal lines I would be grateful.

21 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrian's are invested from birth by both Ruin and Preservation. The connection they have is entirely internal not through an external source like a Spren. Due to the laws of investiture that almost certainly complicates stealing their connection as compared to Radiants.

Scadrians are not particularly invested when not burning metals (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2675).

When burning metal there is Connection opened to Spiritual Realm, that is where the power is coming from. In principle that Connection could be stolen, or moved.

24 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No you misunderstood me. Sixth of Dusk described 2 groups in conflict in the recent short story on 1st of the Sun which seemed to be Scadrial and Roshar or their respective coalitions. that is also circumstantial evidence that in a conflict between them a winner is not as clean cut as you seem to have been saying throughout this thread. That implies to me that many of you may be overlooking some things, maybe many things.

I was under the impression that we are currently discussing mainly Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar, not space-age equivalents. A lot could change that shifts the dynamic in a couple centuries.

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Posted (edited)

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

I was under the impression that we are currently discussing mainly Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar, not space-age equivalents. A lot could change that shifts the dynamic in a couple centuries.

You are right that a lot could change in the centuries, but the fact they seem equally matched at any time implies that their relative potential at any given time is roughly equal unless one has a massive increase in potential in a much shorter time than the other. From what I have read they both seem to advance in their own areas very quickly.

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

And it is still far faster than anything present on Scadrial short of Steelrunners. Even in battle, since they can accelerate nearly arbitrarily fast.

Faster than anything, is pushing it. Bullets and artillery certainly move at speeds exceeding what we have seen from Radiants. Only Windrunners and perhaps Skybreakers have shown that kind of potential acceleration.

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Are you seriously suggesting that a random metalborn with A-bronze and F-zinc can develop anti-investiture weapons against anything? Really? Scadrians have very little knowledge about Cognitive Realm, much less about Spiritual Realm, or experience with direct manipulation of investiture.

Yes I am since they have the senses to detect the tones and rhythms and mental acuity to use that knowledge. Turning mist into anti-mist is much less obvious than turning light into anti-light. Light obviously has a frequency opposite, but how do you even intuit mist (fog) having an opposite or being store-able especially since mist doesn't automatically infuse gem stones.

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Except Shardblade is not invested metal, it is solid investiture, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/6/#e247) and pushing on part is more difficult than pushing on a whole. Shardplate is comparably invested as shardblades are, with blades being a bit more invested. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/217/#e7299)

Brandon Sanderson

Well-- Certain objects just have more Investiture and are more purely of the Investiture. A Shardblade's going to be really hard, but it's possible, it's just going to be really, really hard. Even more hard than an absolutely full Feruchemical metalmind because the Shardblade is being created directly out of the Investiture, it's basically all Investiture, it's not a metal that is Invested. It's going to be real hard.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Each metal has a different reactivity, is it that much of a stretch to say that it was just the metal? I mean it's possible that there is some extra energy coming in, but it isn't nuclear we know that much.

And I didn't know this until recently but here is some trivia for us, Ruin and Preservation are not natural opposites, but sort of "polarized" over time due to perception

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/167/#e3031

If it's a connection to an entity that isn't themselves how is that not manipulable?

The land you where born in is so why is a connection to a shard different?

My bad I wasn't clear, if they have the f-nicrocil ability to multiply their own power, and the medallions ability to give it to others why do they want Aviar?

Sorry it is all packed together I was responding to each individually when Runner responded and I lost my responses to you.

Since Scadrian investiture is intrinsic in the person It stealing connection could be like pushing on metal inside a person and might be much more difficult. While what Ishar did was attempt to steal an external connection to a Spren.

The complete annihilation of Vin and Ati implies that it is a nuclear reaction (matter/anti-matter) as does the complete conversion of ettemetal into energy when it explodes or is used as fuel. Polarizing seems to indicate polarized representational colors not polarized investiture.

I wasn't referring to Aviar at all.

Perhaps Roshar and Scadrial are pursuing more ways to access similar powers.

Edited by BenduLuke
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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Faster than anything, is pushing it. Bullets and artillery certainly move at speeds exceeding what we have seen from Radiants. Only Windrunners and perhaps Skybreakers have shown that kind of potential acceleration.

I meant faster than anything used for movement. Though pebble lashed enough along free trajectory would still move faster than a bullet.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes I am since they have the senses to detect the tones and rhythms and mental acuity to use that knowledge. Turning mist into anti-mist is much less obvious than turning light into anti-light. Light obviously has a frequency opposite, but how do you even intuit mist (fog) having an opposite or being store-able especially since mist doesn't automatically infuse gem stones.

They can detect rhythms of others burning metals, not tones of mist or Well (even regular Bronze mistings did not hear well, and they were stronger in Era 1).

Rosharan could intuit those properties of mists based on their pre-existing experience with other gaseous investiture. F-zinc burner has nothing to work off as you yourself say.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon Sanderson

Well-- Certain objects just have more Investiture and are more purely of the Investiture. A Shardblade's going to be really hard, but it's possible, it's just going to be really, really hard. Even more hard than an absolutely full Feruchemical metalmind because the Shardblade is being created directly out of the Investiture, it's basically all Investiture, it's not a metal that is Invested. It's going to be real hard.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

I am not sure why you are quoting the WoB I linked. Yes, pushing Shardblades is hard, harder than anything shown on screen so far. It is possible, but in other places Brandon says that it would take something like Vin being fueled with Mists, and conventionally it is not possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/115/#e7579)

And it being possible does not change the fact that Wax cannot even push metalminds piercing bodies, even when tapping weight.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Since Scadrian investiture is intrinsic in the person It stealing connection could be like pushing on metal inside a person and might be much more difficult. While what Ishar did was attempt to steal an external connection to a Spren.

Again, Scadrian investiture is not intrinsic (for allomancy and hemalurgy at least). When they are not burning they are not particularly invested (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93-odysseycon-2016/#e2675) and when burning the power is coming from spiritual realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/412/#e13887). That connection to shard in spiritual realm is what would be stolen.

Edited by therunner
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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The complete annihilation of Vin and Ati implies that it is a nuclear reaction (matter/anti-matter) as does the complete conversion of ettemetal into energy when it explodes or is used as fuel. Polarizing seems to indicate polarized representational colors not polarized investiture.

Vin and ATI both persisted as CS for a time

And Harmonium hydroxide is left after an ettmetal reaction.

Edit there is another WoB that does sound like it is an anti-invesiture reaction, but that is older and contradicts others.

Edited by Frustration
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14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@The Technovore I suspect that Soulbearers work exactly that way especially since Brandon has stated multiple times that metalarts are his favorite. Specifically coinshots.

I can't see that being the case, given Sanderson's Laws of Magic, someone being able to become arbitrarily powerful with no drawback flies in the face of what seems to be a cornerstone of the worldbuilding of the cosmere.

On the metallic arts being his favourite, is this based on the WoB where he was asked what power he himself would like to have? Because him wanting to be able to "fly" with steel does not mean that steel allomancy is the be all, end all of cosmere magics, it just means that Brandon would like to have that ability.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I was implying that medallions the Scadrian form of fabrials do use Scadrian powers and a single medallion has the potential to create a compounding Twinborn of any kind in addition to any kind of resonant Twinborn.

Yes, you can make a compounder of anyone with a medallion, I agree, I was mostly pushing back against the idea of creating a double compounder from a metalborn using a medallion, as three power medallions are, to the best of our knowledge, exceedingly rare.

Assuming roughly the same rate of birth for each twinborn combination (which isn't the case, I know, because feruchemy has an uneven distribution, but this is what we have to work with) and an upward population trend, increasing exponentially, which leads to a higher absolute number of metalborn over time and a human lifespan of ~80 years.

Wax is the third known crasher, and given how the population mechanics work, it's possible the second is still around or that their lives overlapped to some extent (higher absolute population). Judging from this, we can assume that, at present, there might be two of any given type of twinborn running around. Say we wanted to make a c-steel, c-gold soldier, given a two power medallion, we have four possible starting points: two each c-steel, a-steel/f-gold, a-gold/f-steel and one c-gold (Miles being hecka dead skews this one) for a total of seven candidates. If we assume that there's a fairly equal age distribution, then 25% are 20 or younger, with a large chunk of this age span being unfit to fight, on account of physical and mental maturity and ability, 25% are 61+ and I'd wager that they're not fighting fit either. This leaves us with ~50% of the candidates (21-60 and late teens), let's say 4 people who you can make double compounder super soldiers, 4 people who if captured, killed or put out of commission for some other reason are irreplacable, until a new one is born/grows up. Will these people be very impactful on a battlefield? Undoubtedly. Will they instantly swing the conflict in Scadrial's favour? Probably not. We're talking about people where even a trade 1:100 with surgebinders is ultimately worth it for Roshar.

I've already taken the position that, given the dissemination of medallions, Scadrial has the better baseline, the better troop quality, as any soldier can be an allomancer (more helpful than feruchemist unless you have people whose sole job is compounding more attributes for other people) or double allomancer depending on how easy medallions with two powers are to make or any combination of two metalborn abilities. Scadrial might also have the higher peak potential, though limited by birthrates (double compounder practically needs a twinborn) but Roshar has the higher average potential, which is only limited by spren populations and suitability of temprament.

I'm not sure what you mean by "resonant twinborn," please explain.

14 hours ago, Frustration said:
14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrian's are invested from birth by both Ruin and Preservation. The connection they have is entirely internal not through an external source like a Spren. Due to the laws of investiture that almost certainly complicates stealing their connection as compared to Radiants.

If it's a connection to an entity that isn't themselves how is that not manipulable?

I could possibly see such an "intrinsic" connection being harder to steal, on account of it probably being a bit more permanent than a nahel bond, but I don't think that precludes messing with it. And pulling Ishar's "the floor is radiant" shenanigans on them should still be applicable.

On the other hand, you're not stealing a person's entire connection to a shard, you're stealing the power/conduit, similar to hemalurgy, aren't you.

12 hours ago, therunner said:
13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes I am since they have the senses to detect the tones and rhythms and mental acuity to use that knowledge. Turning mist into anti-mist is much less obvious than turning light into anti-light. Light obviously has a frequency opposite, but how do you even intuit mist (fog) having an opposite or being store-able especially since mist doesn't automatically infuse gem stones.

They can detect rhythms of others burning metals, not tones of mist or Well (even regular Bronze mistings did not hear well, and they were stronger in Era 1).

Rosharan could intuit those properties of mists based on their pre-existing experience with other gaseous investiture. F-zinc burner has nothing to work off as you yourself say.

Yep, this.

Scadrians might have better tools to work from than Rosharan humans, but they have no knowledge base to reach the point of trying and seekers are not naturally attuned to detect non-allomancy, we've never seen anyone seek feruchemy even, so they'd probably need training to detect the weird sounds of other shards.

Rosharans, on the flipside, have the knowledge base, but possibly less ability to apply it easily, unless singers could attune Scadrial once they got there. (Singer seeker pov when?)

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Only Windrunners and perhaps Skybreakers have shown that kind of potential acceleration.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this is meant to say? Only surgebinders with gravitation have been shown to use gravitation? I don't understand how this is relevant when their shared power is being discussed. Or are you saying that we've not seen this from the shanay-im? In that case we know that their powers manifest differently, just as with all brands of fused (apparently.)

15 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A bondsmith's surges and even his bond could be stolen through metal arts.

Quote

Questioner

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal other...like, the Stormlight...

Brandon Sanderson

It could. It's very complicated, particularly with surgebinding, because the bond with the spren is a voluntary thing. So, you could steal the power, but you would also be stealing the sprenbond which the spren then has autonomy over. So, it might not turn out really well for you. It might not turn out well for anyone involved. Much easier to steal things where there isn't an autonomous being involved in your gaining of the magical powers.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)
Quote

Aradanftw

If you were to use Hemalurgy on a Surgebinder, would it steal the Surge or the actual spren bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It's going to steal the spren bond, but you've got to remember the spren has power over that bond. So what you're doing is (1) incredibly evil, even more evil, but (2) you may not end up with what you want, because that spren has free will in most cases. You may go through all this trouble and then they may break the bond, and you would be left without it. So you would need something else to force them to be unable to break the bond, which would be even more evil, but it is possible in Hemalurgy.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Going by these WoBs, you couldn't just steal someone's surges, you'd get the whole bond and, unless you, per the second WoB, had a way to prevent the spren from severing the bond (which is apparently possible, but I'd guess not known how at the moment, based on both the lack of hemalurgy knowledge and it not being applicable within the scope of hemalurgy on Scadrial) you'd stand there with a nice hole in your soul and one of the bondsmith spren might have a grudge angainst you, personally.

Also, even if you could prevent the spren from severing the bond, there's nothing saying that not acting in line with the oaths is safe, so you might just end up with a deadeye (or once/if that issue is fixed, you might still break the bond, even if the spren can't) and you might be unable to advance in oath level, either because the spren won't cooperate or because hemalurgy is "static," with you just stapling a power to your soul and getting what was left after the hemalurgic decay, or both.

And after all that, you'd be left with worse surgebinding (on account of hemalurgic decay, I assume in this case that it'd weaken the connection, as the spren itself decaying seems weird, let it sit long enough and you might not get a blade no matter if you spiked a fifth oath) and no known way of powering it off Roshar (it should be possible with the metallic arts, the same as it's possible to awaken with stormlight, but seeing as one of the best awakeners ever hasn't figured out that second one, I'll assume it's not simple) and even if you could use metal/feruchemical stores to fuel it you wouldn't get the benefit of that burn/those stores as the power'd go to your surgebinding instead.

 

¤_¤

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On 6/12/2021 at 11:35 AM, The Technovore said:

So Medallions store Invested abilities like copperminds, where you take them out, use them, and put them back. I don't think normal F-Nicrosil works this way, if solely for the reason that compounding it for a Mistborn would be most busted thing in the Cosmere and I don't think Brandon would allow that.

We do know that at the very least medallions and normal F-nicrosil do not function the exact same, though we do not know the differences.

Quote

Calderis

Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? 

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)
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On 6/13/2021 at 4:19 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Yes, you can make a compounder of anyone with a medallion, I agree, I was mostly pushing back against the idea of creating a double compounder from a metalborn using a medallion, as three power medallions are, to the best of our knowledge, exceedingly rare.

A double compounder would require one medallion with two powers and a twinborn with complementary powers.

On 6/13/2021 at 4:19 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "resonant twinborn," please explain.

All twinborn have resonances (two powers and an effect). Like with Windrunners they have Gravity lashings and adhesion lashings and that resonates to produce reverse lashings. The resonances between allomantic and feruchemical powers have not been clearly stated as of yet but Wax's steel bubble might partially be a result of a resonance (Brandon has said it is and it isn't its a savant ability). For Wax his two powers are starting to act as one ability and he instinctively uses them in combination creating affects that other coinshots can't because of the resonance between his abilities. It is anyone's guess what the resonance between Wayne's abilities is.

Each set of twin combinations have a unique potential resonance.

On 6/13/2021 at 4:19 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what this is meant to say? Only surgebinders with gravitation have been shown to use gravitation? I don't understand how this is relevant when their shared power is being discussed. Or are you saying that we've not seen this from the shanay-im? In that case we know that their powers manifest differently, just as with all brands of fused (apparently.)

I mean to say that we have seen travel velocities that seem fast, and we have seen Kal moving fast in relation to Fused without knowing how absolutely fast they are traveling during combat. In neither case was he traveling so fast that wind resistance or friction became an issue which is the limit of practical steelrunner speed. Gravitation gives acceleration not velocity that can only be acheived by time under gravity and everytime a windrunner actually changes direction he only a percentage of the his vector speed depending on the angle of change. A complete reversal would first bring his velocity to zero over time before actually reversing his acceleration to achieve reverse velocity. Windrunners also don't seem to be immune to inertia so a complete reversal of direction would likely apply potentially dangerous g forces. Kal when catching his father didn't stop them instantly but slowed them first so as not to injure his father (Kal could have healed from the injury).

Bullets quickly reach and travel at super sonic speeds and with enough of them are difficult for even the fastest Radiants to dodge, and if they impact the momentum of impact would include any velocity that the Radiant had in opposition. A Radiant accelerating at 9 m/s is going toward a rifleman shooting at him is going to add that acceleration and any accumulated velocity to the impact of the bullet being shot at him that hits and that impact is going to be in a very small area.

On 6/13/2021 at 4:19 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

Going by these WoBs, you couldn't just steal someone's surges

I wasn't just referring to Hemalurgy, but that is an option (evil as Brandon says). In the past he has indicated that one might need to use the spike on both the radiant and the Spren for it to completely work. Still his point about stealing a bond using Hemalurgy is equally applicable to a bondsmith stealing a bond from a sentiant person. We never saw the end of the situation with Ishar and how that might have resolved without Szeth's interference. It is likely that he would have needed to overcome both Dalinar's will and gained Stormfather's acceptance to succeed either of which were uncertain. As Brandon said in what you quoted free will plays a part in stealing a bond.

The below WoB implies to me that bullets have the potential to be effective against shardplate. Perhaps even able to penetrate on one shot. It seems to say that some bullets from Vindication could penetrate shardplate.

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Alright so A shardblade can damage and even crack Shardplate. The magic cancels between them so we are saying that it is as if a sword is striking armor of similar quality with a degree of force applied by the person. Is shardplate rigid and that is why it cracks or is it flexible and does the blade overcome its flexability so that it cracks?

How much force does it take to crack shardplate? It seems to me that if a blade whose force is spread across a relatively large area can crack shardplate the force of a bullet applied to a very small area might be able to pierce it especially if it is rigid.

What is the psi of a shardblade strike on shardplate and how does that compare with the psi of various bullets? .44 magnum or .45, 30-06, 5.62(m16 or ak47 round) and so forth because that could answer how well shardplate would protect in a fight with Scadrian's armed with firearms.

If the armor is rigid it will be more vulnerable to bullets than if it is not so show why you think it is or is not rigid. From what I can tell the psi of a bullet exceeds the psi of a shardblade.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A double compounder would require one medallion with two powers and a twinborn with complementary powers.

Yes, and I've already argued that there might be roughly two people per combination alive at the moment and maybe ~40% aren't figting fit based on age alone, so you'd be able to get some super soldiers, sure, but as I've already said, even if it takes a hundred radiants to capture/kill/neutralise such a person it's a good trade for Roshar.

 

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

All twinborn have resonances (two powers and an effect). Like with Windrunners they have Gravity lashings and adhesion lashings and that resonates to produce reverse lashings. The resonances between allomantic and feruchemical powers have not been clearly stated as of yet but Wax's steel bubble might partially be a result of a resonance (Brandon has said it is and it isn't its a savant ability). For Wax his two powers are starting to act as one ability and he instinctively uses them in combination creating affects that other coinshots can't because of the resonance between his abilities. It is anyone's guess what the resonance between Wayne's abilities is.

Each set of twin combinations have a unique potential resonance.

Yes, I know this. Slight nitpick, the windrunner resonance is, per WoB "strength of squires," not the reverse lashing.

Quote

Ray745

You have stated that each Knights Radiant Order gets their own unique ability, for lack of a better word, due to the combination of their Surges. For instance, you have stated this ability for the Windrunners is strength of squires. My question - is this due to the Nahel bond, or just inherent in the Surges combining. Would a non-Radiant get these abilities from the Honorblades, or would they be out of luck due to no Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! The unique abilities have more to do with the powers interacting, same as how Twinborn will often manifest some odd side effects of the powers interacting. But there are limitations. For example, Jezrien didn't actually have any squires, as none of the Heralds did.

General Reddit 2016 (Oct. 4, 2016)

Quote

Argent

There is a person on the forums who noticed that Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah seems to have a really powerful, kind of, geolocation thing going on, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on?

Brandon Sanderson

There is something supernatural going on. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at the scholar interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, in the past, and some who said they definitely are. But many, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.

Argent

So it's definitely tied to the Orders?

Brandon Sanderson

It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... is abnormal for the Windrunners.

Argent

And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeeeaaaah... some Orders don't have them, [that] is the difference.

Argent

 But some have more?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

The reason for me asking was that you mentioned "resonant twinborn" in a way that sounded like a separate category, and I was confused by what you meant by it.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I mean to say that we have seen travel velocities that seem fast, and we have seen Kal moving fast in relation to Fused without knowing how absolutely fast they are traveling during combat. In neither case was he traveling so fast that wind resistance or friction became an issue which is the limit of practical steelrunner speed.

I'll not respond to most of this section, as I'm (still :P) not great at physics.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Gravitation gives acceleration not velocity that can only be acheived by time under gravity and everytime a windrunner actually changes direction he only a percentage of the his vector speed depending on the angle of change.

My understanding of this is that velocity is conserved as the only thing that changes is the direction of the fall, all of you starts falling in the new direction instantly, so no inertia. There would probably be a small loss from clothing and such, but not from your body.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Kal when catching his father didn't stop them instantly but slowed them first so as not to injure his father (Kal could have healed from the injury).

This is the Superman-problem, no? Superman catching a falling person would snap their spine/rip their arm off/etc. so in a world (mostly) obeying physics of course he'd need to slow.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Bullets quickly reach and travel at super sonic speeds and with enough of them are difficult for even the fastest Radiants to dodge, and if they impact the momentum of impact would include any velocity that the Radiant had in opposition.

You'd still need to adjust your aim to account for the speed of the radiant travelling under several gravities and if the radiant came head-on they could lie flat in they air to minimise their profile and put up a shardshield to protect from frontal shots.

Again, not touching the physics part.

 

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I wasn't just referring to Hemalurgy, but that is an option (evil as Brandon says).

I fail to see what other ways scadrians have to steal surgebinding powers, other than nicking the honorblades.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Still his point about stealing a bond using Hemalurgy is equally applicable to a bondsmith stealing a bond from a sentiant person. 

[...]

It is likely that he would have needed to overcome both Dalinar's will and gained Stormfather's acceptance to succeed either of which were uncertain.

I disagree. I don't think Dalinar'd have anything to say on the matter. Ishar tries to take both his connection to the Stormfather (his bond) and his connection to Odium (Honor's champion) and this is presented as Dalinar having no agency.

I do agree that the Stormfather could then choose to end the bond with Ishar (assuming Ishar didn't get up to more connection shenanigans), and Dalinar could forge a new connection to Odium, but I don't think he could have refused to give up the connections, just like you can't refuse to give up an attribute if someone makes a spike from you.

On that note, I'd also argue that the spren couldn't (through free will) prevent their bond from being stolen (be it through hemalurgy or bondsmithing,) they could just end the bond after the fact.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

As Brandon said in what you quoted free will plays a part in stealing a bond.

My take on this is that free will plays a part in maintaining the bond, not stealing it and I think it's gonna apply differently to nahel bonds (connection forged intentionally and voluntarily) and a metalborn's connection to their shard(s) (connection intrinsic to them.)

It's possible that Sazed could maybe sever the connection once stolen, but on the other hand he seems to not be very good at connection in general. He can't sense Hoid even though he's got a major connection to Preservation.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The below WoB implies to me that bullets have the potential to be effective against shardplate. Perhaps even able to penetrate on one shot. It seems to say that some bullets from Vindication could penetrate shardplate.

My read on that is that Wax, could shatter a section of plate, with the right gun, with 2-3 bullets, 1 in the exact right moment. But Wax also has "protagonist power" on his side.

Also, shattering a section of plate is not the same as penetrating it, it explodes outward, which I think'd turn away a bullet.

Also also, plate in the context of this WoB is deadplate, which, judging by the serious difference in performance between plate generally and the helmet Kaladin steals, is inferior in durability to living plate/plate on a radiant.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Alright so A shardblade can damage and even crack Shardplate.

Yes.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The magic cancels between them so we are saying that it is as if a sword is striking armor of similar quality with a degree of force applied by the person.

I don't agree with this assessment, I'd say that the investiture in the blade overcomes that of the plate, if they canceled out the blade couldn't damage the plate. It is functionally impossible to penetrate plate armour with a bladed weapon, that's the reason why warhammers exist, they're can openers for knights.

So I don't think we can perfectly apply real world physics here.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Is shardplate rigid and that is why it cracks or is it flexible and does the blade overcome its flexability so that it cracks?

On account of how it's described as never denting or bending, I'm gonna go with rigid, but it's also magical, so our physics don't apply perfectly.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

How much force does it take to crack shardplate?

That's actually a really good question.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It seems to me that if a blade whose force is spread across a relatively large area can crack shardplate the force of a bullet applied to a very small area might be able to pierce it especially if it is rigid.

Again, this can't be working entirely like real physics, as you can not cut through plate. I'd assume that the magical cutting property of the blade is rebuffed, but still causes damage to the plate, effectively acting like a bunch of extra physics. The strength of the blow is barely relevant compared to the investiture imparted.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

What is the psi of a shardblade strike on shardplate and how does that compare with the psi of various bullets? .44 magnum or .45, 30-06, 5.62(m16 or ak47 round) and so forth because that could answer how well shardplate would protect in a fight with Scadrian's armed with firearms.

Again leaving the actual physics to people better equipped for it.

I do want to note, again, that the magical properties of shards makes the physics go wonky.

Also, do the scadrians have guns equivalent to the magnum, m16 or ak47 at this stage?

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If the armor is rigid it will be more vulnerable to bullets than if it is not so show why you think it is or is not rigid. From what I can tell the psi of a bullet exceeds the psi of a shardblade.

Fair enough, if we were playing entirely with real physics that'd be perfectly true (the decline of plate armour came about because of better firearms, not because people made better swords after all.)

But as I said above, it can't just be the physics of the interaction, because then blades could never damage plate, which means magic is in play and that makes comparing the physics harder.

 

Edit: going by your interpretation that magic a and magic b cancel out, you then seem to have ascribed magic a to bullets as well as blades, as it seems you are comparing the physics of nonmagical blade vs nonmagical plate and gun vs nonmagical plate, rather than gun vs magical plate, though please correct me if I got that wrong.

 

¤_¤

Edited by Inquisitor #5
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11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

This is the Superman-problem, no? Superman catching a falling person would snap their spine/rip their arm off/etc. so in a world (mostly) obeying physics of course he'd need to slow.

Not exactly since Kal could  and probably did lash his father to slow the fall. Changing gravity doesn't change inertia. Even though they can change the direction of Gravity they still have the inertia of their previous direction. We don't see them reversing direction at high speed but they do angle off of their previous vector and so some of the inertia or momentum adds to the new vector and affects their new trajectory.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

You'd still need to adjust your aim to account for the speed of the radiant travelling under several gravities and if the radiant came head-on they could lie flat in they air to minimise their profile and put up a shardshield to protect from frontal shots.

Again, not touching the physics part.

Multiple repeating rifles all firing could be a lot of bullets to dodge and Scadrial does have machine guns so theres that. Gravities only add to the impact velocity when hit and taking all those hits on the helmet because you narrowed the target could increase the risk.

The physics part is like this. 2 cars traveling 30 mph hit head on with the force of one car hitting something at 60mph, only we are talking about radiants potentially traveling a couple hundred mph hitting a high velocity round traveling potentially over 1,000 feet per second hitting head on. The faster the Radiant and the closer they are the harder and more likely they will be hit by a bullet moving so fast they can't see it to dodge.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I don't agree with this assessment, I'd say that the investiture in the blade overcomes that of the plate, if they canceled out the blade couldn't damage the plate. It is functionally impossible to penetrate plate armour with a bladed weapon, that's the reason why warhammers exist, they're can openers for knights.

So I don't think we can perfectly apply real world physics here.

Well Shardblades are slightly more invested and Shardplate does give greatly enhanced strength, but it would still be a very high quality sword vs a slighly lower quality material plate. One of the things about actual plate is that it is flexible and can be dented by a sword and if hit multiple time eventually pierced. Using the sword to stab instead of slash also increased the potential to penetrate the plate because of the increased PSI at the point. Shardplate doesn't seem to dent but gets cracks which is why I ask is it rigid as that changes the dynamics compared to plate armor. Regular heavy hammers are used to break Shardplate so I am leaning toward a rigid structure like cast iron over something like flexible carbon steel.

11 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Again, this can't be working entirely like real physics, as you can not cut through plate. I'd assume that the magical cutting property of the blade is rebuffed, but still causes damage to the plate, effectively acting like a bunch of extra physics. The strength of the blow is barely relevant compared to the investiture imparted.

Since Brandon models his cosmere off our physics with and added force called investiture is would seem it does reflect our physics. So the PSI on the blade edge or point is what cracks the plate since the magics seem to mostly cancel. Kal cracked a shardhelmet he was using as a boxing glove with just over normal strength vs other plate and blades in the arena battle which leads me to think that Shardplate can be damaged by an impact at or near regular strength over a small enough area.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Also, do the scadrians have guns equivalent to the magnum, m16 or ak47 at this stage?

Vindicatons from descriptions sounds like it might be a heavier caliber than even a .44 magnum for at least some of the hazekiller rounds. Wax's new shotgun blast lifted Steris off the ground so is almost a heavy weapon, and it sounds like Marisi was shooting Rifles similar to henry rifles which are .44 caliber or a larger slug than m16 or ak47. So yes Scadrians have guns that compare.

12 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Edit: going by your interpretation that magic a and magic b cancel out, you then seem to have ascribed magic a to bullets as well as blades, as it seems you are comparing the physics of nonmagical blade vs nonmagical plate and gun vs nonmagical plate, rather than gun vs magical plate, though please correct me if I got that wrong.

The main complication magic seems to create is that the armor heals almost immediately until it takes a lot of damage. what I am presuming is that if the psi of a bullet is high enough it will pierce the armor and do damage to the person inside of it as a result before the reactive magical properties of the armor can stop it.

Other relevant questions might be how thick is the armor?

What if the Bullet that pierced the armor was aluminum and so might interfere with the magical healing properties because of any residue left behind?

The idea that an aluminum bullet might pierce the armor even though it is relatively soft is suggested by the fact that tornadoes can drive straw through telephone poles. Also bullets don't need to be made of just one material.

It is the magical cutting ability of shardblades that seems to be mostly neutralized (ordinarily they can cut through almost anything with little effort). The shardplate seems as if it is just highly durable rigid armor that with enough force can be damaged by ordinary weapons, but also regenerates and grants the user with enhanced physical abilities. Even regular plate has the potential to stop or deflect some bullets.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not exactly since Kal could  and probably did lash his father to slow the fall. Changing gravity doesn't change inertia. Even though they can change the direction of Gravity they still have the inertia of their previous direction. We don't see them reversing direction at high speed but they do angle off of their previous vector and so some of the inertia or momentum adds to the new vector and affects their new trajectory.

All very good points no argument there, I would just add one more thing. While pilots in fighter jets need to be careful not to experience to large g-forces, this should not be an issue for Windrunner (and Skybreakers). The problem for pilots is that the body is not accelerated uniformly (chair pushes body, body pushes blood) which leads for example to blood pooling in the feet or in the back (like when you are in a car and acceleration pushes you in to the seat). However gravity itself won't create such effects, as the entire body is accelerated uniformly and free-fall is technically indistinguishable from being at rest.

In effect this means that Windrunners and Skybrekears should be able to pull what we would call high g maneouvers without too much risk to them.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Multiple repeating rifles all firing could be a lot of bullets to dodge and Scadrial does have machine guns so theres that. Gravities only add to the impact velocity when hit and taking all those hits on the helmet because you narrowed the target could increase the risk.

They could still hide behind shardblade in shape of shield, which should be impenetrable to nearly anything. So far only Nightblood damaged blade (altough it was an Honorblade).

And how many bullets could the Scadrial defense fire at them and hit depends heavily on how would the Rosharan forces attack. Did they use Dustbringers or Skybreakers to create dust cloud for cover? Did they use Lightweaving to blind the defenses? Did they lash rock to fly first to soften up the defenses? Did they attach illusions to those rocks to have defenses fire at them to waste bullets? Did they attack simultaneously from above (Windrunners) and below (Stonewards/Willshapers)? etc.

If we assume only a couple Windrunners attampting head-on attack without any help and any proper tactics (no shardblade shield), they would most likely get shot down if the Scadrial forces outnumber them something like 1 to ~30 based on the following assumptions

  1. Windrunners start 1000 meters away and go from being at rest to landing at rest. They lash themselves 4 times, so to cover the distance would take them ~12 seconds.
  2. Sub-Early 20th century repeating rifles can shoot a round every ~6 seconds, they are shooting aluminum bullets (otherwise reverse lashings would make bullets effectively a non issue).
  3. Accuracy is around 1/2 (most likely worse as for most of the time Windrunners are more than 400 meters away and can rapidly change directions).
  4. To break a section of plate you need 3 bullets (they are not point blank shots so are slowed down and are made from relatively soft metal (at least outer shell)).
  5. It is not realistic to assume that all the rifleman manage to intentionally shoot the same section of the plate, and we assume plate has ~10 distinct sections. (if we neglected this one it would be 1 to 8; 6 to break section and 2 to guarantee hit to the exposed body part).

I intentionally ignored machine guns, as the only use so far was relatively point blank situation, so it is difficult to estimate how accurate they are at hundreds of meters. They could potentially tilt the balance so that Scadrial needs only parity.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The physics part is like this. 2 cars traveling 30 mph hit head on with the force of one car hitting something at 60mph, only we are talking about radiants potentially traveling a couple hundred mph hitting a high velocity round traveling potentially over 1,000 feet per second hitting head on. The faster the Radiant and the closer they are the harder and more likely they will be hit by a bullet moving so fast they can't see it to dodge.

I agree. Personally I doubt that Radiant can intentionally dodge a bullet after it was fired. I mostly assume they would move around in some sort of 3D zig-zag pattern to make aiming more difficult.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Well Shardblades are slightly more invested and Shardplate does give greatly enhanced strength, but it would still be a very high quality sword vs a slighly lower quality material plate. One of the things about actual plate is that it is flexible and can be dented by a sword and if hit multiple time eventually pierced. Using the sword to stab instead of slash also increased the potential to penetrate the plate because of the increased PSI at the point. Shardplate doesn't seem to dent but gets cracks which is why I ask is it rigid as that changes the dynamics compared to plate armor. Regular heavy hammers are used to break Shardplate so I am leaning toward a rigid structure like cast iron over something like flexible carbon steel.

Multiple regular heavy hammers wielded by Warform parshendi can break sections of plate after minutes of sustained attack, not with a couple of hits.

Also the plate is clearly not rigid, as it conforms to users shape and is wholly covering them, including around joints and neck where the plate would need to be flexible. It seems that the plate behaves 'as needed', i.e. if it needs to be rigid and hard it is, if it needs to be flexible it is, and it has no impact on its defensive properties.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since Brandon models his cosmere off our physics with and added force called investiture is would seem it does reflect our physics. So the PSI on the blade edge or point is what cracks the plate since the magics seem to mostly cancel. Kal cracked a shardhelmet he was using as a boxing glove with just over normal strength vs other plate and blades in the arena battle which leads me to think that Shardplate can be damaged by an impact at or near regular strength over a small enough area.

The helmet Kal used did not crack from his offensive use of it, it cracked from multiple hits from Shardblades. If Shardplate could be damaged by a non-magical force impacting at regular strength over a small area people would have noticed sometime in the last ~2000 years since Recreance. Not to mention that the Fused would have known after ~6500 years of conflict, and since they are using aluminum but don't treat it as some ultimate weapon I would not expect aluminum to provide significant advantage either.

Remember that the Fused were worried about one 4th Oath Radiant being in the Tower before they launched attack. If they could easily break plate with Aluminum weapons, why would they fear them so much?

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Vindicatons from descriptions sounds like it might be a heavier caliber than even a .44 magnum for at least some of the hazekiller rounds. Wax's new shotgun blast lifted Steris off the ground so is almost a heavy weapon, and it sounds like Marisi was shooting Rifles similar to henry rifles which are .44 caliber or a larger slug than m16 or ak47. So yes Scadrians have guns that compare.

Vindication to me sounded like a replacement for the .36 caliber gun Wax was using previously so I expected it do be comparable in size, however the Hazekiller rounds are larger so I think .44 sounds reasonable. Vindication also does not seem to do that much more damage usually, it is just much more accurate.

Also while the slugs might be larger than those used in m16 or ak47, the Era 2 rifles would in to way be comparable to the stopping power those assault rifles could provide.

  1. The .44 Henry rounds are ~14 grams and fire at ~1100 ft/s;
  2. The ak-47 uses 7.62x39mm bullets weight at least 7.9 grams, but are fired at ~2300 ft/s.
  3. The M16 uses 5.56x45mm rounds weight at least 3.6 grams, but are fired at ~3300 ft/s.

So Ak-47 fires  bullet that has both better momentum and over twice the kinetic energy, and M16 fires bullet with slightly less momentum (about 3/4) but has larger kinetic energy (about 2.3 times as much).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The main complication magic seems to create is that the armor heals almost immediately until it takes a lot of damage. what I am presuming is that if the psi of a bullet is high enough it will pierce the armor and do damage to the person inside of it as a result before the reactive magical properties of the armor can stop it.

Nothing suggests you can pierce the Shardplate, even Brandon talks about shattering a section, suggesting that you need to break a section first and simply piercing it is not possible. If Shardblade (with incredibly thin edges) wielded by someone in Shardplate (so at least 10 times as strong as human) cannot pierce the plate, I doubt a bullet could. In addition to pierce the plate you would need to displace the material plate is from, and that would be much heavier than the bullet.

Also the plate heals just as well no matter how much damage it takes, it just needs to be provided with enough Stormlight.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Other relevant questions might be how thick is the armor?

I calculated this about 30 pages back I think. It came out 4 cm assuming density of steel, assuming density of tungsten it was around 2cm (using known weight of plate ~600 kg and the fact that area of human skin is ~ 2m^2). In reality it would be a bit thinner I think, as it has a couple percent larger surface area than human skin, but it should be 1cm thick at minimum. This means that person in Shardplate has thicker armour than most tanks used in WW1, and Scadrial has worse weapons than those used in WW1. No bullet they have is going to pierce that.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It is the magical cutting ability of shardblades that seems to be mostly neutralized (ordinarily they can cut through almost anything with little effort). The shardplate seems as if it is just highly durable rigid armor that with enough force can be damaged by ordinary weapons, but also regenerates and grants the user with enhanced physical abilities. Even regular plate has the potential to stop or deflect some bullets.

I don't think it is that the cutting ability is neutralized, I think it is the usual effect of Investiture resisting Investiture.

Shardplate is 1 cm thick at minimum, non-rigid (as it is flexible enough to cover joints and head and still allow regular movement), fixes itself, transmits attenuated sensory input to user (even in shardgloves you can still pick up fine details by touch), can actively adapt (see how it started blocking lighting strikes to not blind Adolin), can resist ordinary weapons for minutes at a time and enhances users strength to at least 10 usual people. And this is deadplate, not living plate.

Ordinary plate vs modern small arms loses, if you have chainmail under plate you have some chance. Shardplate is strictly better than regular plate for defense, otherwise Roshar could use that (Heralds did have advanced knowledge of metalurgy).

Edited by therunner
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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Gravities only add to the impact velocity when hit and taking all those hits on the helmet because you narrowed the target could increase the risk.

How are they hitting the helmet through the shardshield? The only thing known to damage a shardblade physically, in any way, ever, is Nightblood, as far as we know they are functionally indestructible.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since Brandon models his cosmere off our physics with and added force called investiture is would seem it does reflect our physics. So the PSI on the blade edge or point is what cracks the plate since the magics seem to mostly cancel.

Yes, he uses our physics as a base, but due to investiture the materials science of the real world breaks down.

Plate seems to act almost like the phenomenon you can get with glass where tension builds up on impact with no visual damage until one day it's pushed over the edge and shatters/explodes. Plate seems to maintain structural integrity up until the point where it fails catastrophically, exploding into molten metal.

I've already made my point that I don't think the magics cancel, as that is by far the more realistic option, imo.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Kal cracked a shardhelmet he was using as a boxing glove with just over normal strength vs other plate and blades in the arena battle which leads me to think that Shardplate can be damaged by an impact at or near regular strength over a small enough area.

You mean the helmet being used as a buckler to block shardblades repetedly?

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One of the things about actual plate is that it is flexible and can be dented by a sword and if hit multiple time eventually pierced. Using the sword to stab instead of slash also increased the potential to penetrate the plate because of the increased PSI at the point.

These things will functionally not happen in combat, the human in the armour moves too much/too easily for piercing to take place by stabbing.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

what I am presuming is that if the psi of a bullet is high enough it will pierce the armor and do damage to the person inside of it as a result before the reactive magical properties of the armor can stop it.

My interpretation os that straight up piercing is impossible, sections of plate always either hold (albeit with possible damage) or shatter, there is no evidence of them sustaining enough damage to break but not shatter.

Now, I'm not saying that you couldn't break plate in single attacks, but I'd assume that you'd need to bring out the "fun stuff," anti-materiel rifles, land mines, recoilless rifles and the like.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Also the plate is clearly not rigid, as it conforms to users shape and is wholly covering them, including around joints and neck where the plate would need to be flexible.

I'd argue that, at least once fitted, each section of plate is perfectly rigid, joints being handled by overlapping plates and/or the same "this is defintitely magical" effect that makes the visor fuse to the helmet once closed, with no seam.

@therunner, thanks for the excellent imput re:guns, I'm most definitely not a gun person so all of that would have passed me by.

Edit: And regarding the stabbability of plate, if we assume that the magical effects cancel, we're left with the excercise of trying to get through something that, per therunner's calculations, is at least a centimetre thick, when under ideal testing conditions you can barely pierce real-life plate with a thickness in millimetres, making that scenario even less likely.

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Edited by Inquisitor #5
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On 24.06.2021 at 10:16 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

My read on that is that Wax, could shatter a section of plate, with the right gun, with 2-3 bullets, 1 in the exact right moment. But Wax also has "protagonist power" on his side.

I second this. If anything could shatter a Plate section, it would be the main character with a special gun that fires special bullets. And given what happened in RoW, I assume that the one-bullet method involves anti-Investiture.

 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I'd argue that, at least once fitted, each section of plate is perfectly rigid, joints being handled by overlapping plates and/or the same "this is defintitely magical" effect that makes the visor fuse to the helmet once closed, with no seam.

@therunner, thanks for the excellent imput re:guns, I'm most definitely not a gun person so all of that would have passed me by.

I am not that much of a gun person, but my sister is so I try to keep up a bit at least. :) Knowledge of physics also helps with basic assessment.

On the topic of Shardplate, good point on it being potentially overlapping small plates that could be an option. For me the issue is that even if there are overlapping plates, around joints you need them to stretch either a single plate being flexible or multiplate plates somehow attached to each other with something like a spring. In both cases you end up with at least part of Shardplate material having 'stretchy' properties and at that point part of Shardplate being stretchy/flexible seems like a simpler option to me.

I think like you said it is 'magic' like the seemless fusing of visor in helmet, or the Plate melding to user. In effect it reminds a bit of Leto II sand trout armor from Dune, incredibly hard and resistive, yet flexible when needed (like around joints or neck) while still being just as hard to damage.

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27 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I second this. If anything could shatter a Plate section, it would be the main character with a special gun that fires special bullets. And given what happened in RoW, I assume that the one-bullet method involves anti-Investiture.

 

Huh, good point. The WoB does not specificy what kind of bullet only that there could be an argument for one with the right bullet. I think the other conditions (right shot, right time) weaken this slightly as I would expect anti-Investiture bullet being very destructive no matter how well you shoot it, but it sounds like a reasonable guess.

At the very least proper anti-Investiture bullet should most likely be very damaging to Shardplate.

Quote

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

Edited by therunner
response to ScadrianTank
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9 hours ago, therunner said:

In effect this means that Windrunners and Skybrekears should be able to pull what we would call high g maneouvers without too much risk to them.

that entirely depends on the momentum of the inertia. Just because gravity reversed doesn't mean that inertia did. instead it acts like a greater acceleration in the other direction. If you are moving with 1 G of accerleration and throw a lashing in the opposite direction of 2 G's your body would experience 3 G's of acceleration initially.

 

10 hours ago, therunner said:

They could still hide behind shardblade in shape of shield, which should be impenetrable to nearly anything. So far only Nightblood damaged blade (altough it was an Honorblade).

And how many bullets could the Scadrial defense fire at them and hit depends heavily on how would the Rosharan forces attack.

Good point. With repeating rifles tactics change from bunched up units in the open to units under cover scattered around. One shield can only guard 1 direction at a time, but even trench tactics would allow for cross fire against a target and some of the Scadrians could bend the path of the bullets as well potentially increasing accuracy and avoiding the shield. Coinshots and Lurchers could direct more than bullets at their targets, and with Medallions there could be many of those. That is only one subset of potential metalborn enhanced soldier. With medallions you could have virtually any type of twin or compouder without regard to how rare within the population they might be.

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

These things will functionally not happen in combat, the human in the armour moves too much/too easily for piercing to take place by stabbing.

Not my point. I was emphasizing the difference in PSI which is a factor when bullets are considered which are not so easily avoided due to their velocity than stabbing with a sword. Stabbing with a sharp knife was a popular method of dispatching a person in full plate for several reasons. Sword slashes were almost useless but sword thrusts had the potential to pierce plate, though hammers and hooks were better at it.

9 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

My interpretation os that straight up piercing is impossible, sections of plate always either hold (albeit with possible damage) or shatter, there is no evidence of them sustaining enough damage to break but not shatter.

I don't know putting a hole in rigid plate even if it seals right after seems highly likely if enough force is applied in a small enough area. Shardplate like glass, which is semi rigid, putting a hole in it without cracking or shattering it seems highly probable. I am thinking along the lines of highly focused force instead of broadly distributed force like you would get from a piercing strike instead of a slashing strike. 

11 hours ago, therunner said:

The helmet Kal used did not crack from his offensive use of it, it cracked from multiple hits from Shardblades.

It doesn't matter that it wasn't being used offensively Kal's contribution was still mildly enhanced human level strength.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Remember that the Fused were worried about one 4th Oath Radiant being in the Tower before they launched attack. If they could easily break plate with Aluminum weapons, why would they fear them so much?

They weren't worried about his plate but his access to all of his abilities virtually unimpeded.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

So Ak-47 fires  bullet that has both better momentum and over twice the kinetic energy, and M16 fires bullet with slightly less momentum (about 3/4) but has larger kinetic energy (about 2.3 times as much).

By your own numbers the three rifles have nearly the same momentum. m*a. Thanks for the numbers.

6 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

I second this. If anything could shatter a Plate section, it would be the main character with a special gun that fires special bullets. And given what happened in RoW, I assume that the one-bullet method involves anti-Investiture.

Or just a bullet with a powerful steel push behind it. I don't actually think that Wax would need to shatter the plate just punch a hole through it like bullet through thick glass that auto repairs. The fact that Shardplate cracks and doesn't dent implies to me it is rigid and inflexible perhaps even brittle so punching a hole through it may be probable.

6 hours ago, therunner said:

At the very least proper anti-Investiture bullet should most likely be very damaging to Shardplate.

The quote below this comment is about breaking a plate, but my question is fundamentally different. I am not asking about shattering a plate but piercing it and there is a difference. Straw driven through a telephone pole by a tornado doesn't break either the straw or the telephone pole, but does pierce the pole. A bullet piercing plate doesn't necessarily break the plate or even leave a hole but still impacts the Radiant behind it. whether the bullet pierces the plate depends on the psi limit of the impact location and how much of the impact momentum can be distributed over a large enough area reducing the psi of impact. To break the plate you probably do need high explosives which coinshots could push all day long. A Lurcher might pull it into the back of the Radiant using them as a shield against the shrapnel.

That might be interesting a Radiant fighting a Lurcher and constantly being bombarded from behind by grenades or mines.

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5 hours ago, therunner said:

I am not that much of a gun person, but my sister is so I try to keep up a bit at least. :) Knowledge of physics also helps with basic assessment.

I lack even such a tangential interest I'm afraid, so a lot of gun related things will go over my head.

Heh, my physics is rusty, I've not really practiced it in about ten years and sometimes looking at the formulae makes my head spin. I'd say I have a fairly solid grasp on it, here let down by my massive ignorance of guns. 

I also don't have it in me to run the more complicated physics calculations and trying to research which formulae and what numbers go where, so if the discussion turns to things like tensile strength and heat capacity I'm perfectly happy for someone who has more of a head for it crunch the numbers.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

On the topic of Shardplate, good point on it being potentially overlapping small plates that could be an option. For me the issue is that even if there are overlapping plates, around joints you need them to stretch either a single plate being flexible or multiplate plates somehow attached to each other with something like a spring. In both cases you end up with at least part of Shardplate material having 'stretchy' properties and at that point part of Shardplate being stretchy/flexible seems like a simpler option to me.

If we take a look at the Shardplate illustration in the books:1280px-Shardplate.thumb.jpeg.25db496d66c3468f407d5b5584ca8119.jpeg

At the top the combined sabatons and greaves are shown both in a relaxed position (presumably when not worn) and a tense position (plate snapping into shape around the wearer) and we can see that the front (toe to ankle) seems to consist of five plates (toe guard, layers 1-4), with further plates underneath, which seem to be able to glide along eachother, as the tightened illustration shows the edges of the plates closer together, presumably having tightened around the foot. A similar pattern is repeted with the heel.

We also have an illustration of a gauntlet, though I don't know if there's much insight to be had there.

We also have two people obligingly posing in their plates, and here we get some interesting things; the shoulder joint and pauldrons.

The shoulder joint looks to me like it's composed of several C-shapes, cresents or slighty-more-than-semi-circles, overlapping in a C/ɔ pattern, presumably with a slight wedge-shape to each plate, allowing both for limited rotation without creating gaps and compression/expansion moving the arm up and down.

The pauldron then seems to be another set of C-shaped plates enclosing the shoulder, with the same kind of plate moving against plate setup.

We can also see that the breastplate has several plate hoops, presumably allowing (limited) bending at the waist.

I'm unsure how the knee and elbow joints work, but I could see the same kind of ɔ within C pattern as the shoulder joints, but possibly tighter. 

An interesting additional detail is the plate skirt being composed of a few overlapping big plates at the sides, but each "scale" of the front and back seems to be an individual plate hanging from waist, rather than plates attached to plates attached to the waist.

My position is then that each plate is a rigid piece, but that the pieces can move relative to eachother, either because of joints/hinges, being attached to a soft backing, investiture basically magnetising it all in place, or a combination of several of these. I'm leaning investiture myself, as the internal workings of Plate ar really odd compared to real-life plate armour. So I agree that there has to be give, but not in the plate material. 

And here are a couple images of apparently real plate with a similar joint armour, so it's apparently possible to build:

60d62e4db3ebd_unnamed(1).jpg.dc300553ab721c226209e6a832b2a3c2.jpgmain-qimg-a3c16dad29083337325aa105c2cd1a80.thumb.jpeg.b1dbab793ac99ca806ad570df86584d1.jpeg

 

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