Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[XS-Terrain]

Just now, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well. After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the community of the shard will never be able to decide which wins until we actually see a confrontation on-screen. Multiple times. And after Brandon confirms the victor and all the caveats. multiple times.

Yes, I do believe your "i'm sorry for posting this" tag was quite accurate. It has been pretty fun to discuss this though lmao, so thanks for posting it anyways lol.

[XS-Terrain]

51 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Modern day firearms, I agree would be game changers. Firearms of the level we see in Mistborn Era 2, I'm not so sure. They'd help a skilled Mistborn for sure, but I don't think they'd even the playing field enough for an average Mistborn to beat a 4th Ideal Radiant. They'd make it easier for a Kel/Vin level combatant to break plate, but I'm not convince they'd do more than that. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though, guns are definitely nor my area of expertise.

Funny you should mention it!  In fact, I joined this very thread mostly just to talk about how guns were being underestimated by previous posters. Here's my original post:

On 12/8/2020 at 0:36 PM, XS-Terrain said:

I think there is some underestimation of the power of firearms here. According to the Coppermind page on Shardplate,

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Massive, blunt projectiles can also be used against Shardplate. At the Battle of the Tower, listeners use two-handed slings to hurl head-sized rocks at Dalinar; a single blow is enough to make cracks in an unharmed section of Plate.

We don't know how fast this this rock is going, but we can figure out how fast it would have to be going in order to have the same energy as a bullet. According to Google, the average density of a rock is about 3 g/cm^3, and the volume of the human head is about 3000 cm^3, meaning the rocks probably weighed somewhere around 9kg. According to Wikipedia, the .44 S&W American, a common revolver cartridge during the late 1800s, has a mass of about 13 g with a velocity of about 208 m/s^2. Assuming that energy determines whether or not the Shardplate is cracked, we can use the formula KE = 1/2 * m * v^2 to get 1/2 * 9kg * v^2 = 1/2 * 13g * 208 m/s^2, with v being the velocity the rock needs to achieve in order to equal the energy of the bullet. We get that v needs to be ~7.9 m/s. That's pretty fast for a 9kg rock, and that's only comparing it to a revolver cartridge. With something like a Lee-Enfield with the .303 British at 11 g and 761 m/s, the rock would need to be traveling at ~26.6 m/s. This isn't even considering the fact that a Steelpush, especially with Duralumin, would significantly increase the velocity of the bullet. Now, ultimately, all of this is meaningless because we don't know how fast the rock is traveling at, and we also don't know how much additional protection Living Plate provides. I would hazard to guess, however, that multiple revolver or especially rifle shots without reloading would be more than enough to break Shardplate.

Of course, all of this math was made somewhat useless by the fact that there is a WoB talking about guns in relation to Shardplate.

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Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

[Bigmikey357]

The approach to killing a Radiant proposed by @StanLemon is actually imo a feasible way to kill a Radiant which takes advantage of a battlefield that favors their skills while limiting the innate abilities a Radiant possesses. But it begs the question,  why in these scenarios presented is there never an attempt to buff the Radiant?  Why are we not proposing having a Radiant with dampening Fabrials or holding a soulcaster? My guess is that their natural abilities are already overkill in most fights, giving them tools would be patently unfair.  But as one commentor pointed out,  fights are rarely fair when the prospect of mortality is on the line.  The fact that even those who favor Mistborn over Radiant in a battle never consider the tools a Radiant might bring to bear outside of their innate abilities tells me that even they consider a Mistborn win to be a longshot.  I mean Mistborn aren't the only ones who can be sneaky, duplicitous,  deceitful.  Shallan might have a better chance against Vin than even Kaladin if she plays it right, maybe throw her off her game by impersonating Reed or Kelsier,  slippingin the Patternknife at just the right moment. Or Jasnah could outsmart her, maneuvering her into a position where her powers become worthless.  Get into range.  Soulcast the air around her into a stone box.  Leave. I mean even when the Mistborn has every advantage their win isn't assured; make it even and the Radiant nearly always wins.  Give them an advantage outside of their own abilities and it's curtains.  An advantage like choosing the terrain in which they fight.

[Lemiltock]

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

I've refuted these same arguments from you 3 or 4 times now but maybe I just haven't been explaining myself well. I was pretty busy this week so I didn't respond further but I'm off now so here goes.

Are mistborn not already more rare? Most allomancers on scadrial ate mistings, not mistborn, infact how many in era 2 are mistborn. You keep holding the radiants to a different standard than the allomancer. You keep saying a skilled mistborn, when a mistborn is already bear the pinical of allomancy. And by relying on this argument, you imply that the powers of a radiant out weigh a mistborn and a skill advantage is needed to overcome it.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

First very important distinction - I'm not sure where you're getting this skill thing from. You've mentioned it in a couple of previous posts, but I never once said that the 4th Ideal Radiants are skilled. Not once. Just to make sure, I just looked back through all of my old posts. At worst, I may have accidentally implied it in this statement.

See above.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

If you took this to mean that I thought the 4th Ideal meant that you were skilled, that was a miscommunication on my part, and I apologize. What I was trying to communicate was that they are "near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant," and by this I mean that they are the most powerful and most dangerous fighters out of everybody in the Knights Radiant, and that they are a small minority. Therefore, I believe that they should only be fighting the small minority at the top of the Mistborn. This, to me, makes sense. It's only a fair fight if the best of the Radiants fight the best of the Mistborn.

I disagree, mistborn are rare, imho far rarer than 4th oath radiants, even if we low ball and say there are a couple hundred 4th oath radiants, this puts them less rare than the number of mistborn in era 1 and far more than era 2. So if we go by that should we take more skilled radiants to ballance out the rarity? And as ive said above, mistborn are almost the pinicle of their respective magic (a leras bead mistborn is probs pinacle) so no, i dont think we need ti account for skill

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Let's select a skilled 4th Ideal Radiant, one comparable to Kaladin in skill. When matching them against a Mistborn, I think they should fight a Lerasium bead Mistborn who has the skill of Vin, and, if we allow guns, the aim of Wax. That's not a buff to the Mistborn, that's a fair fight. If we were talking a 3rd Ideal Radiant, they would be fighting a less powerful or less skilled Mistborn, and so on and so forth.

Kaladin at 3rd oath, in a battlefiled fight, ie they both know the other is there beats vin. So this line isnt working out well once he gets plate.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Now onto the subject of guns. As I said above, if we're gonna be fighting the best of the Radiants (and this means in skill, power, or both), the person fighting them should be good with guns. A Shardplate is a pretty big target, and I don't think we've ever gotten a full description of how big Syl is as a shield, so your claim that it would cover up the entire torso is questionable, and even if it were the case, legs are a pretty big and vulnerable target. If you've ever watched competition shooting, targets much smaller than Shardplate-covered legs (although usually moving slower than some Radiants, admittedly), are shot with ease. Obviously this is much more complicated while moving around in a fight, but with all of the size Shardplate seems to provide I doubt that a sharpshooter would have a problem hitting the target.

You doubt a sharpshooter would have trouble hitting a moving leg, when its running at what 40km an hour, even if we only assume best sprint speeds and is lets say a 15cm wide by a meter long, i doubt wax could hit that target reliably. Sure they could hjt the chest fairly easily, center of mass doesnt move as much and much more linear  but a spren kite shield covers that. A kite shield is far less material than the shardblades have been depicted as being and thats all thats needed.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

On the subject of moving around, if the fight occurs during the night or otherwise in the dark, the Mistborn also has a far better chance of tracking the Radiant's movement than the Radiant does for the Mistborn. Not only is the Radiant glowing, but the Mistborn can burn Tin, and Shardplate is made of a God Metal alloy from Cultivation and Honor, meaning that it should probably show blue lines connecting to the Mistborn. On the other hand, the Radiant has virtually no ability to track the Mistborn in a dark environment. This makes it exceedingly difficult to chase the Mistborn, much less have a shield always pointed in their direction to block bullets.

So the mistborn burns their metals to reposition, as the radiant runs them down, the radiant has to move less distance and only has to move towards the flying coins/ bullets. The shardplate doesnt always glow either, as Jasnah depicted, so they have just as much of an issue, and they have no spren to look (which admitadly they need for a shield) but if its open ground and their far away they cant move sidewaya fast enough to get an angle, or, theyre close enough the radiant can see the change. And if its built up, the mistborn loses their range adavantage.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

On the subject of bullets, there are a couple of important points here too. First of all, there was the WoB earlier that stated that the right bullet from Vindication could break Shardplate in a single specialized shot, or 2-3 regular shots. This means that something like a rifle, or a shotgun, should be able to break it in one shot. Also, given that aluminum projectiles suppress Feruchemical gold healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e6365) it could have a similar effect on Stormlight healing. Now, I know you've objected to my statements about guns before, so I'll adress those below.

The aluminium needs to get througb plate, its a soft metal, so its good vs non shardplate wearing, but worse against hard shardplate. So theyre now in range to hit eith the full force of a shotgun but havnt eaten a 12 foot spear to the face? 

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

See, now this is what I don't get. We have, in fact, covered this a couple of times now, and despite you saying that you're not taking any liberties, you very clearly are. Here's the WoB again for reference.

Two or three. Vindication is a revolver. 2-3 bullets on a revolver breaks Shardplate. It's not the most powerful bullet on Scadrial, it's a revolver bullet. The phrase "the right bullet" clearly impies that the previous bullets were not the "right" ones, and are just regular bullets. Even the "right' bullet is just a higher caliber bullet with probably more powder, but still only fired out of a revolver. If it's fired out of a revolver, it's probably less powerful than a rifle cartridge.

He litteraly says, the right bullet, the right moment the right shot and theres an argument. I agree a pointblank shot to a non moving radiant could break it, but you add motion on both parties, a sprenshield covering centre of mass and the guns struggling.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Once again, you're taking huge liberties with the WoB. You're assuming it means something that it doesn't necessarily mean. That's what "taking liberties" means. I don't read it as implying assassination. I don't think anybody else in this thread read it as implying assassination, although feel free to correct me if any of you did. After all, it very clearly reads as a "fight," as in a street fight or a dirty fight, not as a slitting of the throat at midnight.

I understand what taking liberties means, and quite honestly you applying certainty to a vauge WoB is the only libetties being taken, but sure i do think vin has a chance against a third ideal kaladin, i think any average mistborn against an average 3rd oath is a toss up. At the 4th oath its game over.

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Back to your most recent reply, I believe that I've already addressed why I believe a Mistborn could pretty easily break plate. Even without guns, it just comes down to a battle of attrition with the Mistborn keeping distance and shooting coins, and from what we've seen, metals last much longer than Stormlight. Other users here have already defended that point pretty well, so I'll just leave that one up to you whether or not you decide to change your mind.

Have we seen that? Because battles last longer rhan fights, and most often the radiant fights weve seen have been part of battles. But in either case  the radiant, only using passive storm light to heal the extremities of their armour will burn through their investigure much much slower than the mistborn going 100% to mvoe around, and damage that armour. So in a battle of attrition i think the radiant, who doesnt need surgebinding to win this fight wins. Because to just damage the plate the mistborn needs to go 100%

6 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

As for there being "hundreds if not thousands" of 4th Ideal Radiants at the time of the Recreance, that's very clearly not the case. At Feverstone Keep in Dalinar's vision I believe there were only 300, consisting of 2 Orders. Some of the Orders are stated to have several hundred members, I believe. In total, I doubt that the Knights Radiant numbered more than 3000. Of those, given that Kaladin states that most Radiants never reached the higher ideals, I doubt that the number of 4th Ideals would exceed 1000.

Even if we assume a couple hundred that is still far more 4th oath radiants than full mistborns in era 1 or era 2, but sure limit the radiant because the 4th oath powers cant beat a mistborn...

[Jace21]

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Thr biggest problem with weapons lime firearms, is a radiant can also wield them, so its no longer a radiant vs mistborn situation. But again you cant shoot through a sprenshield, which can cover centre of mass, and good luck a) hiiting the arms and legs reliably to do any damage and b ) that damage even slowing down the radiant

This is a fair point, though I think giving a gun to each of them would still be an advantage to the Mistborn. That said, I don't consider guns necessary to the fight, just helpful.

The sprenshield is an interesting one. It is indeed impervious to the pieces of metal that would hit it, but size is a real issue. To provide full protection it would need to be a hollow tube with the Radiant inside it. I'm not sure it can go that big. If it can't and the max is that it can go full tower shield, all the mistborn has to do is get metal behind you and he can just pull on it while pushing on something the other side. The shield can't block both.

Taking that out, hitting the arms and legs reliably isn't that hard. The hypothetical mistborn is unlikely to be shooting just 1 coin, I'm imagining a dozen plus pieces of metal, some will hit. If his goal is just to drain Stormlight, it doesn't even matter where he hits, helmet or shin guard, they both take Stormlight to repair.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The crux of the argument is standard mistborn vs radiant give  what we know from row, the biggest difference to before is 4th oath radiants. And to compare a 4th oath radiant to a mistborn. You cant both say a mistborn can reliabily win, and also say a mistborn needs buffs (leras bead, better guns, unlimitted metals more skill etc etc) they can take part of a different discussion, and may even the ods, but in a mistborn v 4th oath radiant they are not counter points.

To me it appears that you are the one limiting the scope of the discussion more than the thread implies my friend. You have decided we are only allowed to discuss "standard mistborn" against '4th Ideal Radiants", which is not specified in the OP. The topic is for "Radiants vs Mistborn. I don't see any issue with the answer being "it depends on the power, preperation and skill of the Mistborn" which is what we're arguing.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Assuming they can do the damage required before theyre either out of metals or the radiant runs them down. Sadies was beat on for minutes by parahendi with full mace blows while he was lying on the ground, minutes by things with huge mass, swung really hard. The coins might annoy the radiant, but they cant do do damage, their best bet is eye slit, and we now know that can be removed. So radiant, while using barley any stormlight walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn and kill them or thr mistborn runs through their metals faster (theyre burning at 100%) and then they die. Guns helps, but sprenkite shield to covrr centre of mass and head and that guns not doing any reliable damage.

I'm going to just write short replies to the bolded section for ease, let me know if I should expand on any points.

before theyre either out of metals - until we know more about the rate 4th Ideal radiants burn through stormlight, I think its safer to assume metal last longer. Its already been mentioned in the thread that a Mistborn can easily keep enough pewter on them for hours of constant burning, and its one of the fastest burning metals. 

but they cant do do damage - I think this is the biggest disagreement. Firstly, I am assuming that the mistborn is expecting combat, so could well have metal other than coins. But even if coins are all thats available, I'm not sure it matters. I agree that 1 hit from a steel-pushed metal object likely won't crack the plate. But I think that enough hits will. The impact is greater than you'd think based on feats from the Mistborn books. Repeated hits could crack it. 

walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn - is the mistborn just standing there? Because unless you're a skybreaker/windrunner, I'd be amazed if you get anywhere near them. Kiting back while still attacking shouldn't be that hard. 

that guns not doing any reliable damage. - I think you're overestimating how easy it is to dodge a bullet. The mistborn can be comfortable out of sword range, maintain that distance and still shoot at legs pretty accurately. Even plate enhanced reflexes aren't faster than bullets. And since the mistborn just needs to hit somewhere to damage the plate and force stormlight usage to repair it, it doesn't matter if the area it hits would be lethal without the plate.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I did mean maybe a thousand here sorry. Its easily hundreds, i havnt got the book infront of me but from dalinars vision it was implied countless knights let their armour fall. In either  case there are no current mistborns, so do we just consider mistings? 

It's all good. If I remember correctly Dalinar sees a few hundred knights abandon their plate in his vision. Windrunners and Stonewards I believe, 2 of the most numerous orders. It wouldn't surprise me if that was pretty much every 4th/5th Ideal member of those two orders, which would make 1000 total a likely upper limit. I could easily be wrong though.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The biggest difference though is range and durability, a radiant can go punch for punch  because both them and their armour heals a mistborn might ignore pain  but they still breao bones, kaladin broke his legs and he barly cracked already damaged deadplate and not on the section he hit. A broken legged mistborn is dead. Plus the speed could be equal, and seems about it, but eith a two hand weapon the range advantage far outweighs speed, and theyre not slower.

I agree here  but it does demonstrate their offence and defence "power" ie the stength of their blows (kicking war form parshendi hard enough to knock other war forms over) ves, cracking ribs? And defence, Sadies had how many warforms with maces raining blows on him for minutes and hes was still alive  vs the damage a mistborn can take. So yes  it dorsnt help show fighting ability  but it shows the stark difference in stopping power and defence.

This is all melee combat based, and I agree the Radiant has a huge advantage. No mistborn we're aware of could be confident of beating a 4th Ideal Radiant in close quarters. I'm just not convinced it ever gets there. Mistborn are just too maneuverable compared to most Radiant Orders. 

34 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

As for there being "hundreds if not thousands" of 4th Ideal Radiants at the time of the Recreance, that's very clearly not the case. At Feverstone Keep in Dalinar's vision I believe there were only 300, consisting of 2 Orders. Some of the Orders are stated to have several hundred members, I believe. In total, I doubt that the Knights Radiant numbered more than 3000. Of those, given that Kaladin states that most Radiants never reached the higher ideals, I doubt that the number of 4th Ideals would exceed 1000.

Not really relevevant to the current topic, but didn't we learn in RoW that there were 2000 honorspren bonded during the recreance? I could be completely misremembering, I don't have my copy with me to check. If so there would likely be far more than 3000 total Radiants, though I still think 1000 is the cap on 4th/5th ideal Radiants total.

34 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well. After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the community of the shard will never be able to decide which wins until we actually see a confrontation on-screen. Multiple times. And after Brandon confirms the victor and all the caveats. multiple times.

Honestly I'm not sure even that would help the community reach a consensus 

Ultimately I think it's a skill matchup, but that's a boring conclusion so the debate will go on!

[Frustration]

58 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

What's your source for hundreds of feet? I just reread that section of tWoK to check and didn't get the impression he was that far away at all. 

Lets say for arguments sake he is though. 200 feet in 3 seconds would be 67 feet per second. Regular humans can run 30 feet per second, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a Pewter burner can run at a speed around twice as fast a normal person. So they'd be in the same ballpark when it comes to speed, though I doubt Dalinar was that far away, like I said. 

 

I reasoned it out because any shorter amount of distance doesn't allow for Adolin and the archers to stop and stare. If it was shorter they wouldn't have noticed.

35 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Dalinar had been running long enough to start, and complete summoning his blade mid run, as well as yell at Renarin mid run, and he was not hundreds of feet away. Even if he was, sub 5 second 40 yard dash times aren't that uncommon among high level athletes who train for it. I give you that holding the claw is a very high feat of strength, but if you want to start throwing in one off extraordinary feats of power by main characters who are being prepared to be a shard's chosen warrior, Vin has some feats we can start throwing into the mix too.

 

Dalinar did it before swearing oaths, the others just never use Shard plate to its full potential, it literally says that other people THOUGHT they knew plate but Dalinar was out of their league, seems to imply he's done similar things.

This is further supported by WoK prime where it says multiple times that most people know how to duel not fight.

25 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Once again, you're taking huge liberties with the WoB. You're assuming it means something that it doesn't necessarily mean. That's what "taking liberties" means. I don't read it as implying assassination. I don't think anybody else in this thread read it as implying assassination, although feel free to correct me if any of you did. After all, it very clearly reads as a "fight," as in a street fight or a dirty fight, not as a slitting of the throat at midnight.

I took it that way, I've seen several WoB where he says Kelsier can kill Kal in his sleep but Kal is a true warrior.

[Jace21]

21 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

I reasoned it out because any shorter amount of distance doesn't allow for Adolin and the archers to stop and stare. If it was shorter they wouldn't have noticed.

Whether or not they can stop and stare is a function of time taken not distance travelled. I grant you he was moving fast, but I think the staring (pre-grab) was more to do with the narrow misses of the claws than anything else. Still, as I said I think pewter-burners are roughly equivalent in speed anyway.

25 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Dalinar did it before swearing oaths, the others just never use Shard plate to its full potential, it literally says that other people THOUGHT they knew plate but Dalinar was out of their league, seems to imply he's done similar things.

This is further supported by WoK prime where it says multiple times that most people know how to duel not fight.

That is what he said, but I interpret it differently to you I think. I took it to mean that what Dalinar was doing was unique and unexplainable, not just that other people aren't good with plate. Likely due to his proto-radiancy or possibly even thrill-enhanced, but not just a result of practice. 

And I hate to be that guy, but WoK Prime supports nothing since so far as I know, its non-canon. I agree with the sentiment that many shard-bearers are not real warriors though.

[Lemiltock]

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

This is a fair point, though I think giving a gun to each of them would still be an advantage to the Mistborn. That said, I don't consider guns necessary to the fight, just helpful.

The sprenshield is an interesting one. It is indeed impervious to the pieces of metal that would hit it, but size is a real issue. To provide full protection it would need to be a hollow tube with the Radiant inside it. I'm not sure it can go that big. If it can't and the max is that it can go full tower shield, all the mistborn has to do is get metal behind you and he can just pull on it while pushing on something the other side. The shield can't block both.

True, but coins while good against flesh arnt great against plate, we see them often pressing againdst walls and the floor not penetrating.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Taking that out, hitting the arms and legs reliably isn't that hard. The hypothetical mistborn is unlikely to be shooting just 1 coin, I'm imagining a dozen plus pieces of metal, some will hit. If his goal is just to drain Stormlight, it doesn't even matter where he hits, helmet or shin guard, they both take Stormlight to repair.

True, but a couple of stray shots, how many coins are they carrying? Sure they can pull them back, but constently working at 100% while the radiant runs straight at you doesnt leave alot of room to work, especially given youll need humdreds of hits, look at the feats with dead plate, adolin was beaten on by 4 opponents one with a shard mace for minutes and his armour was cracked not broken.  Possible yes, but very time comsuming where you cant let slip once or game over.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

To me it appears that you are the one limiting the scope of the discussion more than the thread implies my friend. You have decided we are only allowed to discuss "standard mistborn" against '4th Ideal Radiants", which is not specified in the OP. The topic is for "Radiants vs Mistborn. I don't see any issue with the answer being "it depends on the power, preperation and skill of the Mistborn" which is what we're arguing.

This is because from what i can see everyone agrres equal skill 2nd oath vs mistborn goes to the mistborn almost everytime, at the 3rd its closer but mostly the mistborn depending on luck with surges etc, so weve movrd up to the 4th oath, at this point its luck for the mistborn to win at all and the radiant stomps. This is clear by the fact most arguments agaimst the radiant are guns, which are not a part of allomancy so lets give both guns and who wins, the unarmoured mistborn that cant heal, or the radiant thats both armoured and can heal.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I'm going to just write short replies to the bolded section for ease, let me know if I should expand on any points.

before theyre either out of metals - until we know more about the rate 4th Ideal radiants burn through stormlight, I think its safer to assume metal last longer. Its already been mentioned in the thread that a Mistborn can easily keep enough pewter on them for hours of constant burning, and its one of the fastest burning metals. 

Sure, with multiple vials, how much is the mistborn carrying into combat because at some point they stop being able to have enough metal, and given they need to burn it faster than the radiants given theyre just healing their shardplate.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

but they cant do do damage - I think this is the biggest disagreement. Firstly, I am assuming that the mistborn is expecting combat, so could well have metal other than coins. But even if coins are all thats available, I'm not sure it matters. I agree that 1 hit from a steel-pushed metal object likely won't crack the plate. But I think that enough hits will. The impact is greater than you'd think based on feats from the Mistborn books. Repeated hits could crack it. 

Multiple hits sure, limely hundreds, is it possible yes, does it take an exteme yes, the radiant needs one maybe two hits to win, the mistborn needs to avoid that, not run out of metals or metal (objects) and hit them for minutes if not an hour before it breaks, shardplate is hard and magical. And then the radiants bairly draining their stormlight vs the mistborn going 100% a battle of attrition here favours the radiant

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn - is the mistborn just standing there? Because unless you're a skybreaker/windrunner, I'd be amazed if you get anywhere near them. Kiting back while still attacking shouldn't be that hard. 

No theyre running, and witb running comes less accuracy, less accuracy means less damage  and running backward is slower (if they push backward the coins have zero mass to them and dont do any damage) and the radiant is usane bolt sprinting at them, theyll catch them its just a matter of time.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

that guns not doing any reliable damage. - I think you're overestimating how easy it is to dodge a bullet. The mistborn can be comfortable out of sword range, maintain that distance and still shoot at legs pretty accurately. Even plate enhanced reflexes aren't faster than bullets. And since the mistborn just needs to hit somewhere to damage the plate and force stormlight usage to repair it, it doesn't matter if the area it hits would be lethal without the plate.

Its not doging bullets it what the plate can take, if the mistborns close enough to shoot reliably the radiant closes the distance with ease, and then shardblade to the face, especially if they takr the time to brace and shoot such a powerful weapon.

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

It's all good. If I remember correctly Dalinar sees a few hundred knights abandon their plate in his vision. Windrunners and Stonewards I believe, 2 of the most numerous orders. It wouldn't surprise me if that was pretty much every 4th/5th Ideal member of those two orders, which would make 1000 total a likely upper limit. I could easily be wrong though.

Yer i agree with this i think it was jist about all bar skybreakers (who didnt break their oaths) but 1000 max maybe half that is likely

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

This is all melee combat based, and I agree the Radiant has a huge advantage. No mistborn we're aware of could be confident of beating a 4th Ideal Radiant in close quarters. I'm just not convinced it ever gets there. Mistborn are just too maneuverable compared to most Radiant Orders. 

Your not convinced a super fast super strong radiant can run down a mistborn, either the mistborn only runs and does no dmaage, running out of pewter before the radiant, or they shoot back, move slower and get caught. This is ignroing throwing of a shard spear etc

18 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Not really relevevant to the current topic, but didn't we learn in RoW that there were 2000 honorspren bonded during the recreance? I could be completely misremembering, I don't have my copy with me to check. If so there would likely be far more than 3000 total Radiants, though I still think 1000 is the cap on 4th/5th ideal Radiants total.

Honestly I'm not sure even that would help the community reach a consensus 

Ultimately I think it's a skill matchup, but that's a boring conclusion so the debate will go on!

 

[Nymeros]

Radiants are super overpowered

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

And I hate to be that guy, but WoK Prime supports nothing since so far as I know, its non-canon. I agree with the sentiment that many shard-bearers are not real warriors though.

It's not cannon, but it's really similar and it shows how Brandon thought about the world, so I think we can use it as a guide.

[BenduLuke]

21 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Hemalurgy requires peircing the heart, and is something Stormlight can heal, and that isn't how Identity works.

Tell me more. How does Identity work?

Also I thought where one pierced depended on the ability being harvested as well as the metal used to harvest it if it required a specific location at all. I could be wrong but I don't think Vin's sister was pierce through the heart by the ear spike she wore.

Edited December 11, 2020 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Tell me more. How does Identity work?

Also I thought where one pierced depended on the ability being harvested as well as the metal used to harvest it if it required a specific location at all. I could be wrong but I don't think Vin's sister was pierce through the heart by the ear spike she wore.

It's where the spike is placed in the receiver, although what it steals is likely determined by intent.

Now on Identity, what you're trying to do is make them into Parshmen right?

That would be connection not Identity, and likely have horrible repercussions.

[Aspiring Writer]

23 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You are also right that Aluminum alone wont remove stormlight without the radiant being pierced by it, but it can be used to handicap an opponent while stormlight is neutralize or removed some other way. There is also the possibility that being pierced by aluminum would neutralize stormlight just like it neutralizes metals when burned.

I you stabbed a Radiant with aluminum, their stormlight would not be stolen, that is not what aluminum does, that's Raysium. If they were stabbed with aluminum, their wounds would either have trouble or not heal.

[BenduLuke]

59 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

It's where the spike is placed in the receiver, although what it steals is likely determined by intent.

Now on Identity, what you're trying to do is make them into Parshmen right?

That would be connection not Identity, and likely have horrible repercussions.

With Identity I am assuming that is where a persons talents, personality, skills, and abilities that enable connection are stored, and if drained for a time at least they are highly suggestible. Identity also provides the motivating force and once drained may act like a sever brain injury or deep hypnotic state.

Loss of Identity has been stated to make a person more susceptible to emotional allomancy. In a way removing Identity removes will but not exactly since another metal does that.

I have seen many references to Pewter giving strength and speed to allomancers and a Pewter twin would be impressive, but if you want speed, range, and manuverability what you want is a Steel twin Savant. Steel/Iron allomancy seems to enhance accuracy since intuiting vectors, trajecories, and momentum becomes second nature to skilled coinshots and lurchers. Add to that compounded speed and push of a twin who like Was seems to always be using his allomancy and feruchemy.

Since windrunners are the most agile and perhaps best individual fighters so far of the Radiants Kaladin being the pinacle of what we have seen so far.  Pitting a Kaladin like windrunner against a Wax skill level Steel compound twin savant would give the windrunner a real run for their money.

The windrunner would have personal regeneration and durability on their side so they could take a great deal of damage. Their default weapon is a near instant kill blade but I don't think it would take long for a Kaladin to adapt and use gravity and reverse lashes to create projectiles In the case of reverse lashes guided missiles.

The Steel compounding savant twin would have insane speed on their side with the added momentum and angles that would give them. We saw that steel speed in normal circumstances seems to grant movement like the flash making the person near imperceptible and compounding would only enhance that. Also any metal the windrunner had would give them away to the steel twin. Any speed that the steel twin achieves would provide additional momentum to their pushes and the only time they would be slowed is going down since that would be limited by gravity unless they had an anchor above.

Not sure how long shardplate and stormlight would last against the constant barrage of ballistic speed strikes the steel twin could deliver. The wind runner might only connect if they got lucky. Any other type of Radiant would have an even worse time. If I understand only a windrunner has the potential for guided projectiles and if those projectiles happen to metal the steel twin could use them as anchors and or deflect them outright.

That would be a fight to see though you may never see more than a blur where the steel twin is concerned if that.

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I you stabbed a Radiant with aluminum, their stormlight would not be stolen, that is not what aluminum does, that's Raysium. If they were stabbed with aluminum, their wounds would either have trouble or not heal.

No stormlight wouldn't be stolen the Identity would, and stormlight might be nullified just like metals are. With a missing Identity it might also break their bond to their spren since it seems as if the connection is through the identity.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

No stormlight wouldn't be stolen the Identity would, and stormlight might be nullified just like metals are. With a missing Identity it might also break their bond to their spren since it seems as if the connection is through the identity.

I have never heard of this. Where did you hear this was possible?

Aluminum identity ability is feruchemy related, it's not just something it does. The metals being nullified are from burning aluminum, which removes all investitures stores, it's not a natural ability. Your confusing how aluminum works in magic systems with them being natural abilities it has.

[BenduLuke]

8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I have never heard of this. Where did you hear this was possible?

Aluminum identity ability is feruchemy related, it's not just something it does. The metals being nullified are from burning aluminum, which removes all investitures stores, it's not a natural ability. Your confusing how aluminum works in magic systems with them being natural abilities it has.

Stealing identity is the hemalurgic ability of aluminum.

In many parts of the cosmere aluminum acts to suppress or interfere with investiture and that includes roshar. Stormlight is an investiture store.

Edited December 11, 2020 by BenduLuke

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Stealing identity is the hemalurgic ability of aluminum.

In many parts of the cosmere aluminum acts to suppress or interfere with investiture and that includes roshar. Stormlight is an investiture store.

Didn't mean to quote myself I meant to edit.

Theoretically an aluminum Hemalugic spike might be used to get access to others Invested abilities like allomancy, radiance, or feruchemy. by passing the identity markers inherent in those abilities. It can be used to steal breaths without permission. because it bypasses the identity marker on the breaths before they are given away by the owner.

[Kuldak]

41 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Stealing identity is the hemalurgic ability of aluminum.

In many parts of the cosmere aluminum acts to suppress or interfere with investiture and that includes roshar. Stormlight is an investiture store

Stealing identity is Duralumin. Aluminum in Hemalurgy removes all powers, note this is different from stealing powers. I would assume that means that when spiked with aluminum (ie with intent), it will either suppress all investiture related powers while it is still in place, or just flat out permanently remove the powers. Removing someone's identity wouldn't give you access to someone's powers, and would likely have severe consequences if you started trying to spike someone else's identity onto yourself. Hemalurgy is currently a largely unknown black box of Cosmere Mad Science when dealing with anything beyond the very basic aspects of it.

However I think that in the realm of this discussion we should assume no Hemalurgy, either in the possession of usable spikes, or ability to create spikes for either side. If you don't, you start getting just stupid levels of powers interacting in ways they aren't designed to, and can draw no real fair comparisons. 

[Aspiring Writer]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In many parts of the cosmere aluminum acts to suppress or interfere with investiture and that includes roshar. Stormlight is an investiture store.

It blocks investitiure, doesn't mean it will remove someone's store of stormlight, simply means they can't use surges on it. 

[Tazren]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:58 AM, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well. After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the community of the shard will never be able to decide which wins until we actually see a confrontation on-screen. Multiple times. And after Brandon confirms the victor and all the caveats. multiple times.

This is my feeling as well.

Although, personally ... I really feel like there will be a lot of situations in which the Radiant wins, a few where the Mistborn wins, and quite a lot where the Mistborn runs for their life, since they'll be able to outrun almost any order.

Feels like at the end of the day, you have to come up with very niched and specific scenarios to be able to defeat something that has absurd healing powers and increased strength/speed as a base, in addition to their more unique abilities. Surprise, pure luck or the Radiant having a significant extra disadvantage.

[BenduLuke]

On 12/11/2020 at 6:05 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

It blocks investitiure, doesn't mean it will remove someone's store of stormlight, simply means they can't use surges on it. 

It doesn't mean it wont remove stormlight either. as Kuldak pointed out to me Aluminum removes powers when used hemalugically

On 12/11/2020 at 5:22 PM, Kuldak said:

Stealing identity is Duralumin. Aluminum in Hemalurgy removes all powers, note this is different from stealing powers. I would assume that means that when spiked with aluminum (ie with intent), it will either suppress all investiture related powers while it is still in place, or just flat out permanently remove the powers. Removing someone's identity wouldn't give you access to someone's powers, and would likely have severe consequences if you started trying to spike someone else's identity onto yourself. Hemalurgy is currently a largely unknown black box of Cosmere Mad Science when dealing with anything beyond the very basic aspects of it.

However I think that in the realm of this discussion we should assume no Hemalurgy, either in the possession of usable spikes, or ability to create spikes for either side. If you don't, you start getting just stupid levels of powers interacting in ways they aren't designed to, and can draw no real fair comparisons. 

From what I understand Aluminum is a little understood wildcard metal which appears to level the playing field between normal's and invested individuals. The only real clue we have to go on with how it may work is that it feruchemically stores identity so maybe it stores away the metal identities and once burned the metal identities are burned as well leaving them inert. Perhaps some connection to the persons identity and their powers is what causes hemalurgic spikes to remove powers in some way. The easiest way to nulify a radiant's power would be to nullify their stormlight and perhaps the Radiant loses the identity connecting them to the stormlight.

I don't know this could be wild speculation, but it has not yet been explained how aluminum works only what it does.

With aluminum what really intrigues me is the possible interaction with of aluminum compounding in an aluminum twin?

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It doesn't mean it wont remove stormlight either. as Kuldak pointed out to me Aluminum removes powers when used hemalugically

It won't, we know via WoB, yes in Hemalurgy it can destroy power but that requires A. Intent, and B. to peirce the heart.

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

[BenduLuke]

25 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

It won't, we know via WoB, yes in Hemalurgy it can destroy power but that requires A. Intent, and B. to peirce the heart.

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Let me see if I can understand what you are saying. If a person used an aluminum spike with intent they would remove the ability to create gravitic, reverse and cohesive lashes from a windrunner but not nullify the underlying stormlight?

In alomantic burning it seems to eliminate/nullify the power source, the metal, not the ability to burn the metal. Are you saying that a aluminum Hemalurgic spike removes the underlying power not their power source? How would that even be possible without spiking both the radiant and the Spren?

[NameIess]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

From what I understand Aluminum is a little understood wildcard metal which appears to level the playing field between normal's and invested individuals. The only real clue we have to go on with how it may work is that it feruchemically stores identity so maybe it stores away the metal identities and once burned the metal identities are burned as well leaving them inert. Perhaps some connection to the persons identity and their powers is what causes hemalurgic spikes to remove powers in some way. The easiest way to nulify a radiant's power would be to nullify their stormlight and perhaps the Radiant loses the identity connecting them to the stormlight.

That's not how it works. Mistings who get shot by aluminum bullets don't get their power drained from them, so why are you assuming that the Radiant's stormlight would be drained?

Alright, here's my current understanding:

Winner is based on four things: Equipment, skill, oath level, and situation. If a Mistborn is given unlimited Atium, a hemalurgic minigun loaded with aluminum spikes, Nightblood, and the bands of mourning, they are gonna win. If we match Vin up against The Lopen, Vin's gonna win. (On the other hand, if we match Taln up against Vin, he could probably kill her with a toothpick). Fourth oath is a huge step up from third oath, which is in turn a huge step up from second oath. Situation is, as has been brought up, of utmost importance.

So, all other things being equal, Mistborn with Atium has a huge advantadge over most orders of Radiant of the third ideal, an advantage over fourth ideal, and is unknown versus Radiants of the fifth ideal. Without Atium Mistborn are evenly matched with most third ideal Radiants, winner generally depends on the Knight Radiant's order. Fourth ideal, advantage goes to the Radiants, but the result still depends on the order. Fifth ideal, we have no idea.