Ookla the unintelligible

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

1,817 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Finding one of the weapons that's been kept secret for over 4,500 years would be difficult.

 

The Shin have it they even invaded with them once

Its not so complicated and even if they didn’t have it they still would win

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Renarin is helped by Adolin and another Shardbearer, all of whom could cut stone like butter.

 

Do you think that 2 Shardbearers and Renarin can kill a fully ready Fullborn?(C-Speed, C-Strength,C-Healing)

No, no they cannot

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

The Shin have it they even invaded with them once

Its not so complicated and even if they didn’t have it they still would win

But no one else aside from Heralds and Taravangian knew they had them.

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Do you think that 2 Shardbearers and Renarin can kill a fully ready Fullborn?(C-Speed, C-Strength,C-Healing)

No, no they cannot

Two Elsecallers could though.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

The Shin have it they even invaded with them once

Its not so complicated and even if they didn’t have it they still would win

Do you think that 2 Shardbearers and Renarin can kill a fully ready Fullborn?(C-Speed, C-Strength,C-Healing)

No, no they cannot

The Thunderclasts don't have the raw power of a Fullborn, but they have the unkillability. They're pure stone, and when you chop them to bits, they form a new body. Even if you kick them off your planet entirely, they Return. Even Fullborn aren't immortal, and can't form entirely new bodies. A fullborn as a higher cap for damage, and is harder to kill initially, but a thunderclast is even more difficult to kill because unless you have the very specific realmatic knowledge required, you're not getting rid of it permanently. Does that makes sense?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Technovore

I like the analysis, good job.. A couple comments.  1. Roshar is not seriously planning any invasion in the Cosmere without Radiants.  They aren't stupid.  Even with Radiancy being a relatively new concept for modern Roshar their scouts would tell then they would be going against a planet of magic users.  They ain't going in naked. 2. Stormlight supply is the biggest limiting factor for a Rosharan offensive.  I don't see them using gunpowder weaponry like Scadrial's forces,  they seem more comfortable with light based weaponry.  But to do so they're going to need a breakthrough to keep their forces properly supplied.  3. Of the opposing forces,  Roshar benefits much more from a scout force than Scadrial because Scadrial's weapons aren't exactly unique.  It's much easier to get a gun than a Shardblade. And if Roshar goes in prepared they have the commanders to best take advantage of the information gained. If they can go in with at least comparable weapons Scadrial is going to have a really tough patch.  Still, I agree for the most part with the assessment. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just thinking of a scenario where F steel would be used by fullborn to try and catch a radiant off guard.   Assuming said radiant were a bondsmith and could cover the ground to "stick" their opponents to it... how fast do you recon a fullborn would have to be moving to rip themselves in half via the inertia?   Its long be talked about how busted a steel compounder is and I found the thought of them being torn in half just by virtue of being so broken fast a funny one.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, DoctaDajman said:

I was just thinking of a scenario where F steel would be used by fullborn to try and catch a radiant off guard.   Assuming said radiant were a bondsmith and could cover the ground to "stick" their opponents to it... how fast do you recon a fullborn would have to be moving to rip themselves in half via the inertia?   Its long be talked about how busted a steel compounder is and I found the thought of them being torn in half just by virtue of being so broken fast a funny one.  

Well they would likely throw themselves out of their shoes and faceplant on the adhesive surface.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Fullborn are to Roshar as Thunderclasts are to Scadrial, imo. Rusting powerful and terrifying, but few enough that finding their weakness or brute-forcing their death essentially removes them from the board (a lot like a Queen in chess.)

Can a Thunderclast even get a body when the top layer of the ground is soil? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

Can a Thunderclast even get a body when the top layer of the ground is soil? 

The soil wouldn't mean anything to it, it probably rips that much stone off of itself

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The soil wouldn't mean anything to it, it probably rips that much stone off of itself

The deepest ones can't see when they are fully in stone, and true spren can't go through solid objects. So can a Thunderclast even reach the stone?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/26/2021 at 5:14 PM, The Technovore said:

Second sentence is in direct contradiction of the word "united" and your first sentence. The condition of each planet once they unite is that they'll be united.

Between that and the ad hominem attacks, I think you've run out of patience for valid arguments. There is nothing here you're saying that you haven't said before, and that goes for most of everyone's posts here. Most of the suppositions here are unconfirmed, unsupported, and likely won't be confirmed anytime soon. No one can actively disprove the other, try as they like. You clearly read the books differently than everyone else here does. Let's stop the useless arguing and be done.

Edit: Admitting bias in a discussion is not as productive as you think. Bias, by definition, is a colored lens that may obscure facts and objective reality. Admitting that you're biased while refusing to change it, and claiming that you're only biased because everyone else is, does nothing to combat bias, but does a LOT to turn a good argument into a rusting cremshow. If you want Scadrial to be fairly represented, then fairly represent it. The more you reach for ways to make it seem favorable, the more clownish it looks. It's a lot like plastic surgery.

First great analysis later in this thread. The (Y,Y,N) might still tip to Scadrial. It seems more like a toss up to me.

The idea that Roshar will develop gunpowder and fire arms seems remote to me. I suspect they rediscover how to create surge fabrials and that will be the basis of how they create projectile weapons. That seems more in character to me of how their tech is developing. The need for stormlight is still a huge barrier to their potential expansion so until that is overcome any conflict would need to take place on Roshar. Obviously Brandon has plans on how that will be overcome, of course by that time investiture magic may be much more homogeneous. I really wish he had done W&W 4 before branching off on external series like Skyward. For that matter I am more interested in Era 3 Scadrial than book 5 stormlight.

As for planet unity it is all a matter of timing. From my perspective of how BoM ended it seems on the verge of being forced to unite in both the north and south because those cities or southern groups who don't unite will be left out in the cold from those who do unite for trade and development. That could leave the united Scadrial much stronger and more capable. From what I see at the end of RoW it looks like they are on the verge of a short very devastating war that will claim the lives of spren, fused, singers, and humans indiscriminately. That could leave Roshar much diminished before a united Roshar gets in a conflict with Scadrial. I could be completely wrong on both counts, but that is how I see them shaping up.

Recognizing my own bias and why I have it or choose it does enable my arguments and leaves me open to potentially persuasive arguments from the other side. It also means I am less likely to accept arguments from the other side conclusively that I feel have been overstated because of their bias. It means that I think many of the arguments that support Roshar are overstating those abilities and so I feel free to overstate Scadrials abilities in return.

On 5/27/2021 at 1:42 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Allow me to debunk this with one reason: Enlightened Truthwatchers.

Compounded Chromium counters enlightened Truthwatchers.

On 5/27/2021 at 4:07 PM, STAG said:

Maybe this is something that is widely known, but can mistborn push and pull shard metals?

Yes if they are strong or skilled enough.

Vin when fueled by mist could potentially do it. Compounded Iron or steel could potentially reach that degree of power and skill. BoM would possibly enable it.

19 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I disagree with this

A Fullborn is much more powerful since they could have an equal weight and strength and heal and go very very fast. 
And if he would steal the Edgedancer Honorblade (Abrasion) Game over

They just have a long reload time

Renarin basically one on ones a Thunderclastk in OB if I’m remembering correctly 

The Queen reference makes sense

A Fullborn not only has raw power, but also has the potential to anticipate the future and the mind to prepare for it. TLR focused on the longevity and the raw power he held, but would have been much more successful if he had instead focused more on the spiritual and mental powers of his feruchemy. Chromium, Zinc, and Electrum in particular. If he had focused there he could have used his raw power more effectively.

1 hour ago, ScadrianTank said:

The deepest ones can't see when they are fully in stone, and true spren can't go through solid objects. So can a Thunderclast even reach the stone?

When thunderclasts form they bring with them the soil and everything which is why they often have moss, fungus, and detritus hanging from them or attached to the stone. They form from whatever material is readily available and are not limited to just stone. Either before forming the body or once the body is broken the Spren could potentially be captured stopping them from forming any new bodies.

@therunner I know you guys think I am ignorant of Radiant capabilities, when in reality I think many arguments supporting them are overstating those abilities, so my response is to address that bias by giving extreme or overstated examples of Scadrian abilities. When I read some of your or others responses I am often left wondering if you even considered what I said. You personally much less than some which is why I still continue to respond regularly to you.. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BenduLuke said:

Compounded Chromium counters enlightened Truthwatchers.

And why is that? Both of them see the future using Fortune, which, like two Atium burners facing off, cancels out and cascades into a feedback loop of different possible outcomes. I see no reason that an Enlightened Truthwatcher could not at least trip up a Chromium Compounder enough to foil their "perfect" predictions and plans.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

And why is that? Both of them see the future using Fortune, which, like two Atium burners facing off, cancels out and cascades into a feedback loop of different possible outcomes. I see no reason that an Enlightened Truthwatcher could not at least trip up a Chromium Compounder enough to foil their "perfect" predictions and plans.

A chromium compounder has the potential of a near limitless supply of fortune. Hoid uses feruchemical fortune to be where he needs to be, but if he had compounded fortune he would also likely know why he needs to be there. Like I said it counters enlightened truthwatchers, and then it becomes who has more fortune.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BenduLuke said:

A chromium compounder has the potential of a near limitless supply of fortune. Hoid uses feruchemical fortune to be where he needs to be, but if he had compounded fortune he would also likely know why he needs to be there. Like I said it counters enlightened truthwatchers, and then it becomes who has more fortune.

I can correct you on at least one point: Hoid's Fortune is not accessed via Feruchemy. Feruchemical Chromium stores the same thing, yes, but that's like saying "Hoid accesses water via bottled water" when he has a glass and a tap of water. The method is different.

As for the others, well, yes, it would counter an Enlightened Truthwatcher, but that's not the point. The point is that we're just trying to screw with Fortune as much as possible and in general we're going to see more Enlightened Truthwatchers than Chromium compounders (currently the score is 2-0).

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I can correct you on at least one point: Hoid's Fortune is not accessed via Feruchemy. Feruchemical Chromium stores the same thing, yes, but that's like saying "Hoid accesses water via bottled water" when he has a glass and a tap of water. The method is different.

As for the others, well, yes, it would counter an Enlightened Truthwatcher, but that's not the point. The point is that we're just trying to screw with Fortune as much as possible and in general we're going to see more Enlightened Truthwatchers than Chromium compounders (currently the score is 2-0).

I was told his fortune was feruchemical, but i am not commited to the idea.

Chromium compounders could be produced safely (hemalugy is a slippery slope) with medallions. With BoM we know we have the potential for at least one. Yeah seeing someone like Wax tossing opponents is very satisfying, but that is barely the tip of the iceburg of their potential. In addition I think there might be two other types of compounders that could be hacked into Chromium Compounders. Both Nicrosil, and Aluminum.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

The deepest ones can't see when they are fully in stone, and true spren can't go through solid objects. So can a Thunderclast even reach the stone?

That is a good question, soil in principle is not truly 'solid' it can be quite loose so that might play a factor. Or the Thunderclast works more like deepest ones, and they could simply go down until they reach stone and then animate that and dig themselves out.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Compounded Chromium counters enlightened Truthwatchers.

 

If anything they are mutual counter, as both use Fortune and both would interfere with one another. If corrupted Truthwatcher is enough of a problem that it counters futuresight of a Shard, even compounder won't overcome that.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

 

When thunderclasts form they bring with them the soil and everything which is why they often have moss, fungus, and detritus hanging from them or attached to the stone. They form from whatever material is readily available and are not limited to just stone. Either before forming the body or once the body is broken the Spren could potentially be captured stopping them from forming any new bodies.

 

 

They have never been shown to form from anything other than a stone, and in fact it would not make much sense to form from soil (as it does not hold shape well). To capture the fused soul you would need fully aluminum cage the size of the fused/EDIT: thunderclast fused, which is about the same as size of Thunderclast, so at least 30 feet tall. That is not a cage that you can easily hide to trap someone in.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

 

@therunner I know you guys think I am ignorant of Radiant capabilities, when in reality I think many arguments supporting them are overstating those abilities, so my response is to address that bias by giving extreme or overstated examples of Scadrian abilities. When I read some of your or others responses I am often left wondering if you even considered what I said. You personally much less than some which is why I still continue to respond regularly to you.. 

 

I am also wondering whether you even read responses to you, as you have a habit of ignoring questions of others, even when they only ask you make a concrete statement instead of vague one.

I am still curious as to why you think Radiant vs Fullborn is a toss up, despite also thinking some twinborn would be able to kill Radiant of any Oath. And I am still wondering which parts of my previous replies were 'desperate rant' as you stated.

Edited by therunner
spelling (were and where seems to cause me trouble lately), clarification
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BenduLuke said:

I was told his fortune was feruchemical, but i am not commited to the idea.

Chromium compounders could be produced safely (hemalugy is a slippery slope) with medallions. With BoM we know we have the potential for at least one. Yeah seeing someone like Wax tossing opponents is very satisfying, but that is barely the tip of the iceburg of their potential. In addition I think there might be two other types of compounders that could be hacked into Chromium Compounders. Both Nicrosil, and Aluminum.

Okay, sure. Let's assume there's a reliable method for turning Leechers and Spinners into Chromium Compounders, through hemalurgy/medallions/etc.

Now you've just pushed the problem back to "how many Leecher/Spinner pairs are in the Scadrian Population that you could conceivably use as fodder to make Chromium Compounders".

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, therunner said:

If anything they are mutual counter, as both use Fortune and both would interfere with one another. If corrupted Truthwatcher is enough of a problem that it counters futuresight of a Shard, even compounder won't overcome that.

They have never been shown to form from anything other than a stone, and in fact it would not make much sense to form from soil (as it does not hold shape well). To capture the fused soul you would need fully aluminum cage the size of the fused, which is about the same as size of Thunderclast, so at least 30 feet tall. That is not a cage that you can easily hide to trap someone in.

I am also wondering whether you even read responses to you, as you have a habit of ignoring questions of others, even when they only ask you make a concrete statement instead of vague one.

I am still curious as to why you think Radiant vs Fullborn is a toss up, despite also thinking some twinborn would be able to kill Radiant of any Oath. And I am still wondering which parts of my previous replies where 'desperate rant' as you stated.

You are right a mutual counter. There is the potential for a Chromium compounder to have a larger area of effect than say Renarin. Those around him cannot be predicted but the further from him they are the better Odium can predict them. Someone with a near limitless supply of Fortune could potentially have a very broad affect even on a shard's perception.

I get the idea that they can potentially form at least in part from soil from this description "When they desire to take on a physical form, they sink into the stone and animate it, ripping themselves out in the humanoid form.[3] As such, they retain some qualities of the material they take on, like the color or a covering of moss or fungus."

Earlier it describes the Spren as singer souls so maybe 6 or 7 feet tall. Not so hard to make a cage or net that big. Some spren can change size so we can't be certain they could be larger or smaller.

Overall I think a conflict between Rosharan and Scadrian magic is a toss up. I did generally agree with your yes no scenerios as to likely potential outcomes if they could go to Scadrial. There are some twinborn like steel compounders who could do enough damage in a short enough period to overwhelm even a Radiant in armor. Some could apply the brain vs brawn analogy to defeat or kill radiants. So far we have seen Brandon use brute force in both systems, but on Scadrial that is barely the tip of its potential. Toe to Toe there are very few metalborn that would be a match for any Radiant, but Scadrian magic isn't limited to toe to toe engagements to win, they are only icing on the cake. A single Zinc compounder could use any and all the abilities of his forces to best advantage and influence the morale of both sides of the battle. There are others that could have equally unforeseeneen affects on the battle tipping the scales to Scadrial. Roshar has brute force in almost all cases, but that still doesn't guarantee the win for them it only gives them a fighting chance.

50 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay, sure. Let's assume there's a reliable method for turning Leechers and Spinners into Chromium Compounders, through hemalurgy/medallions/etc.

Now you've just pushed the problem back to "how many Leecher/Spinner pairs are in the Scadrian Population that you could conceivably use as fodder to make Chromium Compounders".

Anyone could be a Chromium compounder with the right medallion. You can make as many of those at a time as you can find truesouls. Of course you could make as many compouning medallions of any kind with a truesoul and the right medallions. One true soul could use any two medallions of the same metal in succession to create a compounding medallion so long as one was allomantic and the other feruchemical. Any other twin combination would be possible as well.

It seems to me that an aluminum compounder could potentially use spikes or medalions to become fullborn and could then create even more BoM. A nicrosil compounder could also potentially become Fullborn using medallions and might then be able to create more BoM as well. I might possibly be wrong but we will need to wait and see. I hear one of the main protagonists of era 3 will use Nicrosil.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I get the idea that they can potentially form at least in part from soil from this description "When they desire to take on a physical form, they sink into the stone and animate it, ripping themselves out in the humanoid form.[3] As such, they retain some qualities of the material they take on, like the color or a covering of moss or fungus."

Earlier it describes the Spren as singer souls so maybe 6 or 7 feet tall. Not so hard to make a cage or net that big. Some spren can change size so we can't be certain they could be larger or smaller.

Yes, they animate the stone, not the soil. The fact that some soil might remain stuck on the stone does not mean they animate the soil as well, they don't animate the fungus or the moss.

Souls of Thunderclasts are described as roughly the size of buildings (Oathbringer, chapter 115), so you would need a box at least building size. Net or cage would be insufficient, as they could simply pass through the gaps.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Overall I think a conflict between Rosharan and Scadrian magic is a toss up. I did generally agree with your yes no scenerios as to likely potential outcomes if they could go to Scadrial. There are some twinborn like steel compounders who could do enough damage in a short enough period to overwhelm even a Radiant in armor. Some could apply the brain vs brawn analogy to defeat or kill radiants. So far we have seen Brandon use brute force in both systems, but on Scadrial that is barely the tip of its potential. Toe to Toe there are very few metalborn that would be a match for any Radiant, but Scadrian magic isn't limited to toe to toe engagements to win, they are only icing on the cake. A single Zinc compounder could use any and all the abilities of his forces to best advantage and influence the morale of both sides of the battle. There are others that could have equally unforeseeneen affects on the battle tipping the scales to Scadrial. Roshar has brute force in almost all cases, but that still doesn't guarantee the win for them it only gives them a fighting chance.

The yes/no scenarios were @The Technovore 's not mine.

Also that does not answer my question. On the last page you said that I am wrong about Fullborn defeating Radiant, and that it would be a toss up, literally saying this:

Quote
On 26/05/2021 at 11:45 PM, BenduLuke said:

Thanks for admitting that the ultimate metalborn will defeat any Radiant or Fused, even though I think you are wrong about that as well. I think it is a toss up who would win and depend on circumstances.

 

So again, how is it that Fullborn vs Radiant is a toss up, but some twinborn can defeat Radiant of any order? Since Fullborn is all twinborn rolled up into one, they should be at least as strong as the most powerful twinborn, no?

Edited by therunner
spelling (again with where/were :/)
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BenduLuke

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, BenduLuke said:

Yes if they are strong or skilled enough.

Vin when fueled by mist could potentially do it. Compounded Iron or steel could potentially reach that degree of power and skill. BoM would possibly enable it.

The way I see it there's allomantic strength, which is inborn and, barring hemalurgy, shardic intervention, lerasium and nicrosil feruchemy, unchangable, burning pewter always gives the same person the same amount of extra oumph for instance, defined by their allomantic strength.

For steelpushes and ironpulls this would define how hard you can push/pull, that is how much force you can exert allomantically, as well as how much resistance you can overcome and how fine things you can sense/affect.

Then steelpushes and ironpulls are further influenced by physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, this is where mass (or effective mass, in the case of iron feruchemy) plays into strength. Vin is noted as being stronger than Kelsier, but is still warned against engaging in pushing matches, because she'll most likely be out-weighed by her opponent, and as such she'll be flung around.

So in short, mass makes your push stronger by having more, well, mass behind your push, without changing your allomantic strength in the process. You can't affect anything that didn't show up with steel lines before tapping weight after tapping.

 

On 2021-05-29 at 9:22 PM, BenduLuke said:

Recognizing my own bias and why I have it or choose it does enable my arguments and leaves me open to potentially persuasive arguments from the other side. It also means I am less likely to accept arguments from the other side conclusively that I feel have been overstated because of their bias. It means that I think many of the arguments that support Roshar are overstating those abilities and so I feel free to overstate Scadrials abilities in return.

[...] 

@therunner I know you guys think I am ignorant of Radiant capabilities, when in reality I think many arguments supporting them are overstating those abilities, so my response is to address that bias by giving extreme or overstated examples of Scadrian abilities. When I read some of your or others responses I am often left wondering if you even considered what I said. You personally much less than some which is why I still continue to respond regularly to you.. 

 

I really feel that you'd be better served by trying to explain why you think a given example is extreme or overstated rather than deliberately pulling out such examples yourself.

I also wish to say that broadly I agree with you re: the discussion of the supressor a page or two back, given that the Urithiru supressor got messed up by fairly minor things (Lift's lifelight, Venli's... regal-ness[?]) and I personally think that, as a bondsmith fabrial, it messes with connection, so unless they manage a broad-spectrum one it might be hard to make a supressor that reliably gets all the metallic arts (eg. allomancy supressor might get bypassed by hemalurgy or medallion.)

 

I'm also going to keep (infrequently as it may be) championing that, assuming the rapid dissemination of medallions, Scadrial has a higher average troop quality, because they have the potential to make every soldier eg. a pewterarm/bloodmaker, or whatever combination you desire, keeping in mind that medallions seem to be common enough in the south that everyone has one, otherwise they couldn't go outside.

Given enough compounders (and with the medallions those are more plentiful) Scadrial might also have the advantage in field medicine, just strap a bloodmaker medallion to someone and hand them an unkeyed goldmind, and have the ability to alleviate some supply line problems with the same approach using bendalloy.

@The Technovore (I think, sorry if I pinged the wrong person)

Small pedantry, there's no need to give Roshar crossbows, they already have them, as can be seen in the Thaylen gemstone reserve, Rysn shoots a Fused with a crossbow.

 

And finally, a small point on air superiority, a Scadrian invasion of Roshar can, as I understand it, basically not at all make use of their airforce, for two reasons.

1, their airships rely on being lighter than air, which I'm sure would make them play nice with the highstorm.

2, their airships rely on ettmetal, which explodes when wet, so unless it's in highstorm-proof containers it won't survive the first storm.

 

¤_¤

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

I also wish to say that broadly I agree with you re: the discussion of the supressor a page or two back, given that the Urithiru supressor got messed up by fairly minor things (Lift's lifelight, Venli's... regal-ness[?]) and I personally think that, as a bondsmith fabrial, it messes with connection, so unless they manage a broad-spectrum one it might be hard to make a supressor that reliably gets all the metallic arts (eg. allomancy supressor might get bypassed by hemalurgy or medallion.)

I would push back a bit at this, the situations in RoW where suppresors don't work are not minor things, but only things where another Shard is involved:

  1. Lift is not using stormlight like every other Radiant, but lifelight (Cultivation's investiture). So if suppresors are keyed to Honor's investiture, this won't be blocked (and she still has issues with one of her surges despite this).
  2. While Venli can breathe in stormlight, she cannot use it to actually power Surges, she needs to use Voidlight instead, so Odium's investiture. (RoW chapter 67)

So from this it seems that single suppresor can block use of investiture of a given shard. For allomancy it should depend on how exactly it is fueled,

  1. Non-hemalurgic allomancy is fueled by Preservation, hence Preservation suppresor should be enough.
  2. Feruchemy seemingly involves both Preservation and Ruin to facilitate tapping/storing (as Ruin can interfere with coppermind memories in transit), and so might require two suppresors to fully stop.
  3. Hemalurgically granted abilites are fueled/powered by Ruin (I think), so you would need Ruin suppresor.
  4. Medallions use seemingly 'just' unsealed nicrosil-minds, so they should be fueled as non-hemalurgic power. (as it trick souls to think it has power it does not)

So to stop or hinder most metalborn, I think you require just Preservation-keyed suppresor. In fact since Harmony has only one naturally occuring godmetal (as far as we know), it hints that Harmony might have only one associated kind of investiture at this point, so Harmony-suppresor might stop all metallic arts.

Edited by therunner
spelling
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, therunner said:

I would push back a bit at this, the situations in RoW where suppresors don't work are not minor things, but only things where another Shard is involved:

  1. Lift is not using stormlight like every other Radiant, but lifelight (Cultivation's investiture). So if suppresors are keyed to Honor's investiture, this won't be blocked (and she still has issues with one of her surges despite this).
  2. While Venli can breathe in stormlight, she cannot use it to actually power Surges, she needs to use Voidlight instead, so Odium's investiture. (RoW chapter 67)

That's entirely fair.

I guess my read on it is that the suppressor is fairly easy to cheat. I don't think Venli is particularly special, her regal form just provides enough of a connection to Odium to bypass the suppressor and I'd assume that any regal radiant would be in the same boat.

Working from this assumption I think that it might get a bit more complicated is all. I wouldn't be suprised if a Preservation suppressor might not fully work on the allomancy of a twinborn, there's a different connection in there throwing it off, essentially. That's also why I think the medallions might mess with it, because "you got your connection in my connection" as it were. Though I don't doubt that it might still mess with the power, a bit like what happened with the reverse lashings.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

So from this it seems that single suppresor can block use of investiture of a given shard. For allomancy it should depend on how exactly it is fueled,

  1. Non-hemalurgic allomancy is fueled by Preservation, hence Preservation suppresor should be enough.
  2. Feruchemy seemingly involves both Preservation and Ruin to facilitate tapping/storing (as Ruin can interfere with coppermind memories in transit), and so might require two suppresors to fully stop.
  3. Hemalurgically granted abilites are fueled/powered by Ruin (I think), so you would need Ruin suppresor.
  4. Medallions use seemingly 'just' unsealed nicrosil-minds, so they should be fueled as non-hemalurgic power. (as it trick souls to think it has power it does not)

So to stop or hinder most metalborn, I think you require just Preservation-keyed suppresor. In fact since Harmony has only one naturally occuring godmetal (as far as we know), it hints that Harmony might have only one associated kind of investiture at this point, so Harmony-suppresor might stop all metallic arts.

As I explained above, I think the situation might be slightly more complicated.

Do you think that the suppressor would suppress warlight? I'm inclined to say no, just like Venli wasn't knocked out. In the same vein I don't think a Preservation suppressor would properly get at feruchemy.

I would personally assume that as long as Harmony has two separate intents the powers remain separate enough.

 

Oh, and a general thing I forgot to include in my last post, there was a bit of discussion of compounding and the limits thereof a while back and I'd like to pose a question based on this; what actually happens when you compound?

Using Sazed's speculative figure of ten times back what you stored, for easy maths, what are you getting?

Say I have a store of 50% strength for 5 hours, do I get 500% strength for 5 hours or 50% strength for 50 hours? Both of these are the same amount, but they aren't the same practically.

As a sidenote, I wouldn't be suprised if there either was a fixed point where you start seeing diminishing returns (X×100% capacity) regardless of the maths of the compounded store or possibly as part of the store (50% at 50% becoming 500% at 50%, that is, exceeding the original store speed in tap speed starts seeing diminishing returns.)

 

¤_¤

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

That's entirely fair.

I guess my read on it is that the suppressor is fairly easy to cheat. I don't think Venli is particularly special, her regal form just provides enough of a connection to Odium to bypass the suppressor and I'd assume that any regal radiant would be in the same boat.

Working from this assumption I think that it might get a bit more complicated is all. I wouldn't be suprised if a Preservation suppressor might not fully work on the allomancy of a twinborn, there's a different connection in there throwing it off, essentially. That's also why I think the medallions might mess with it, because "you got your connection in my connection" as it were. Though I don't doubt that it might still mess with the power, a bit like what happened with the reverse lashings.

Ah, I see, personally I read it differently then.

I guess to me Venli case precisely proves that you cannot cheat it easily, as you need another Shardic investiture to step in, even if you then use it to fuel same ability. So I would also expect any regal radiant to do what Venli did, but only because they can also use Voidlight, not because they can bypass suppresor. Usage of Honor's investiture is still blocked, but they have access to different fuel.

Since allomancy is directly fueled from Spiritual, it would be very easy to disrupt like this, because another Shardic investiture has no way to enter the equation (unless hemalurgy or maybe F-nicrosil mind and some trickery).

The reverse lashing thing is interesting, but if I remember correctly it was only Kaladin who exhibited that, and he was close to 4th Oath so closer to Honor? I would expect that lerasium mistborn, or something similarly strongly (or maybe more strongly) connected to Preservation might power through suppresor and use at least diminished versions of their abilities. In twinborn, if Feruchemy can work only with Ruin, I would expect Feruchemy to work and resonance as well, but allomancy to not work anymore.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

As I explained above, I think the situation might be slightly more complicated.

Do you think that the suppressor would suppress warlight? I'm inclined to say no, just like Venli wasn't knocked out. In the same vein I don't think a Preservation suppressor would properly get at feruchemy.

I would personally assume that as long as Harmony has two separate intents the powers remain separate enough.

I don't think suppresor would suppress warlight, and I think to suppress feruchemy properly you might need either both Preservation and Ruin suppressors. However since those powers were separate in Era 1 and Feruchemy still worked properly (and there definitely was no merged investiture back then) I think suppressing only one would still interfere with proper feruchemy, as it might require power of both Shards to function properly.

On Harmony and Intent I honestly don't know; on one hand we know that he wars with Intents of the two powers, but he would drop just one Shard and has only one godmetal, so they are quite merged already.

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, and a general thing I forgot to include in my last post, there was a bit of discussion of compounding and the limits thereof a while back and I'd like to pose a question based on this; what actually happens when you compound?

Using Sazed's speculative figure of ten times back what you stored, for easy maths, what are you getting?

Say I have a store of 50% strength for 5 hours, do I get 500% strength for 5 hours or 50% strength for 50 hours? Both of these are the same amount, but they aren't the same practically.

As a sidenote, I wouldn't be suprised if there either was a fixed point where you start seeing diminishing returns (X×100% capacity) regardless of the maths of the compounded store or possibly as part of the store (50% at 50% becoming 500% at 50%, that is, exceeding the original store speed in tap speed starts seeing diminishing returns.)

As far as I know, we don't know :D You get something like 10 times as much back, but what exactly that means is difficult to say. I personally conceptualize it as ability*hours, so kg*hours for Iron, or (m/s)*hour for Steel, or something like Newton*hours for Pewter.

Since in the books they always just comment on size of the store, not on its 'quality' I think it should work like this: storing 50% for 5 hours should get you the same store as storing 10% for 25 hours. So for example, if I stored 50% of strength for 5 hours, I would have something like (dont quote me on these numbers) 5000 Newton*hours, and that is what would get multiplied by 10, for 50000 Netwon*hours.

Since per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) loss when tapping does not depend on storing speed, this would then agree with your reasoning on diminishing returns. The diminishing returns would appear when you stretch the physical aspect too far from its spiritual ideal in a sense. It also resolves the issue with what multiplies when compounding, making it moot point.

Edited by therunner
spelling
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool thread! I wish I had time to read it all but I’ll just put my initial guesses, noting I havent finished Bands of Mourning just yet.

I think the main problem for a radiant is mobility. All of their weaponry seems to be designed to mess up big targets like Thunderclasts or chasmfiends. I dont understand why “experience with investiture draining” is listed as a feat, it quite obviously nearly got our radiants killed and it was still probably lead to a dead radiant no matter how much experience they have with it. And then duralumin + steel push almost definitely breaks through plate. As everyone else has pointed out, the healing factor + plate mean the radiants have ridiculous durability against mistborn, but I still think a mistborn that isn’t caught completely by surprise will have some play against a fourth ideal radiant. Atium to get in + steel duralumin to crack plate and then the draining metal to sap healing would kill and I dont see how a radiant necessarily avoids it either than keeping mobile enough to not get hit by the steel push. But then again if a radiant’s familiar with the matchup they’ll know thats a mistborn’s only shot to kill them and might be able to take measures to prevent it. And that is still a tricky kill that burns some important, rare metals. Radiants 60:40. Shardblades only are a threat to mistborn the first time they show up, they hard counter healing and pewter but it only works the first time they see the matchup. A third ideal radiant just loses straight up imo if they have the nicrosil, i dont think atium would even matter. 
 

Any radiant kills any misting or ferring. Some twinborn combos might still beat a third ideal radiant, like speed, and the healing one probably beats the radiants without shardblades. I dont see any twinborns killing a fourth ideal radiant without a lot of luck. 
 

Anti-light obviously storms up either side if employed, although I think radiants are more vulnerable to it because without healing this is a bit of stomp imo. There’s a reason “bringing guns to a knife fight” is a common phrase

 

Roshar stomps Scadrial outright. I the windrunners alone outclass all but one or two individuals on Scadrial. First era actually would be harder than the second era, because there’s more mistborns and Inquisitors to defend, but I dont see how windrunners + szeth dont beat lord ruler (who isnt going to think to use nicrosil on them) and nobody else has anything that can beat their healing. Even at their peak the number of mistborns are still probably around the numbers of windrunners at the end of RoW. Transfer through shadesmar might be a problem but they only have to take one city and Navani’s almost definitely figured out to solve the stormlight problem (creates light with rhythm) and the connection problem (bondsmiths). 
 

The strength of scadrial could improbe a lot by the end of Bands so maybe im off by a little, but I dont see them introducing more than two or three powerful beings by the end of this book and thats not holding back an army of powerful beings. Lord Ruler was a Fullborn with an army of mistborn, I doubt Scadrial era 2 introduces more than one Fullborn and thats without an army of radiants... and still you’d probably need a squad of them to challenge an army of radiants 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

So I know this is a very heated debate and y'all probably don't need any more arguments to be used as fodder against one another, but I have some ideas and honestly can't stop myself from joining in :P 

So, something in favor of TEAM RADIANT:

  • Something that was just brought up in this topic, Allomancy relies on two things; the Power (Investiture), and a Key or Gate for that power (metals)
  • As this suggests, there is no power in the metals, which means that Preservation's power (as the mists) is fueling the allomancy. Now, the mists are a localized phenomena like the highstorms, so they could not function on Roshar without a portable form of investiture to use.
  • This means that basically the war is decided by whoever has the most portable Investiture, and whilst medallions could do that for Scadrial (also mentioned in that topic), I think Stormlight naturally lends itself to being transported, giving them an edge.

Something in favor of TEAM MISTBORN:

  • I was up late the other night and thought of a truly terrifying assassin; An experienced Kandra with a rifle.
  • This Kandra is a. physically adaptable, able to change shape and use their body to suit litterally any situation, 
                            b. not afraid of being controlled by Harmony so could probably be fullborn (limitless spikes?) and 
                            c. using a Hemalurgy Rifle 

"Hemalurgy Rifle?" I hear you ask, "what good would that do?" WELL, it's an easy way to kill a spren/disable a Knight Radiant! Simply;

  1. shoot the spren
  2. Bullet can become a hemalurgic spike with the right intent
  3. Intend for the bullet to steal the Nahel Bond
  4. Goodbye Radiant abilities

So yeah, those are just my humble offerings in this apparently massive war. Enjoy slaughtering each other! :D 

Edited by a Faceless Immortal
Edited because my Theory was Disproven
4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, a Faceless Immortal said:

So I know this is a very heated debate and y'all probably don't need any more arguments to be used as fodder against one another, but I have some ideas and honestly can't stop myself from joining in :P 

So, something in favor of TEAM RADIANT:

  • Something that was just brought up in this topic, Allomancy relies on two things; the Power (Investiture), and a Key or Gate for that power (metals)
  • As this suggests, there is no power in the metals, which means that Preservation's power (as the mists) is fueling the allomancy. Now, the mists are a localized phenomena like the highstorms, so they could not function on Roshar without a portable form of investiture to use.
  • This means that basically the war is decided by whoever has the most portable Investiture, and whilst medallions could do that for Scadrial (also mentioned in that topic), I think Stormlight naturally lends itself to being transported, giving them an edge.

Something in favor of TEAM MISTBORN:

  • I was up late the other night and thought of a truly terrifying assassin; An experienced Kandra with a rifle.
  • This Kandra is a. physically adaptable, able to change shape and use their body to suit litterally any situation, 
                            b. not afraid of being controlled by Harmony so could probably be fullborn (limitless spikes?) and 
                            c. using a Hemalurgy Rifle 

"Hemalurgy Rifle?" I hear you ask, "what good would that do?" WELL, it's an easy way to kill a spren/disable a Knight Radiant! Simply;

  1. shoot the spren
  2. Bullet can become a hemalurgic spike with the right intent
  3. Intend for the bullet to steal the Nahel Bond
  4. Goodbye Radiant abilities

So yeah, those are just my humble offerings in this apparently massive war. Enjoy slaughtering each other! :D 

Allomancy is powered by Preservation not the mists.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.