Nameless

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

1,769 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

You writing down repeatedly disproved assertions, or claiming we have not discussed points that were in fact discussed is getting a bit tiresome.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

War is expensive we haven't been discussing the economics of a possible conflict.

Economics of warfare were discussed previously (as Frustration pointed out). But to recap

  1. Scadrial has advantage in being able to scale production, but they are limited by their population (if they are building/mining/moving, they cannot be fighting), and in logistics (trains, but only in Elendel Basin and centered on Elendel, fabrial aircraft but only SoScad).
  2. Roshar has advantage in: production of raw resources (no need for mining due to Soulcasting), speed of production of simple items (food, swords, helmets, etc. more Soulcasting), logistics (mainly on Roshar via Oathgates and Fourth Bridge, Elsecallers/Willshapers supported by a ship in CR -> anywhere, Gravitation for traversing difficult terrain), and finally Roshar has much larger population (10-20 times the size) and parts of their population mature much faster (Singers).

Economics really do not favor Scadrial.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum will block any healing ability, repel the spren in their gem heart and potentially interfere with whatever investiture makes them function.

Aluminum turns off, neutralizes, and blocks investiture. If used with the intention of being a spike it does the same thing as it does allomantically. Wipe investiture, and perhaps more completely that leaching. One interpretation of what it does Hemalugically is to remove the ability to use investiture going forward. Almost like it breaks a person's connection to investiture. Personally in the case of Radiants I think it will do to stormlight what it does to metals allomanically. Erase it. if instead it removes a persons ability to use investiture period it would be very devastating.

I do not know where you are getting that Aluminum can do all this. Aluminum does following

  1. Resists being invested/affected by investiture leading to ignoring pushes/pulls (Mistborn), gravitation (SA), soulcasting (SA), forgery (Emperor's Soul), healing (pretty much any direct interaction of investiture with aluminum).
  2. Blocks flow of investiture this leads to storing Invested liquid from shardpool (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9233), blocking rioting/soothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10821), blocking Connection lines (maybe,  since it can shield metal from being visible to allomancer), hiding Rhythms/Pulses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10532), interference effect in conjoiner Fabrials (which consists of a single spren in two stones, in other Fabrials such effect is not confirmed to occur, RoW).

These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:

  1. Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)
  2. Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)
  3. Turn off investiture (no such effect)
  4. Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)

In metallic arts it does the following

  1. Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.
  2. Feruchemy, store Identity.
  3. Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy).
14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No you don't need to hit the heart for hemalurgy. Each power has a specific target to where it must be hit and there are dozens of them especially when the metal can have potentially many powers like steel or iron then you must hit the person in a very specific place and put it in the recipient in another specific place. Some do require the heart, but that doesn't mean aluminum does, for that matter it is from my perspective that anywhere will do for it like some others do. An aluminum hemalurgic spike doesn't transfer any powers to others it is entirely an anti-investiture spike. I suspect that aluminum handcuffs will be used in Era 3 to contain invested individuals with tiny spikes to pierce the skin.

Now the only interesting in combat is Hemalurgy, but you need to 1) Hit correct bind point. 2) Do so with Intent. Since human body has around 200-300 bind points (and a lot of them are in heart), each metal has ~13-19 binds (assuming equal distribution). If someone is facing you, you can see only 7-10 binds points for one metal, and at least one of those is in the heart, so good luck hitting them with a gun (since the bind points are not that large, if multiple can fit on heart).

So, what you are saying above is wrong, there not dozens for individual metals, there is at best ~20. Anywhere will not do for aluminum, there is no reason why it should be special among all the others, your speculation is not fact (especially when it is supported by exactly nothing). It is not anti-investiture spike, it just removes powers, if it was anti-investiture it would be much more explodey.

In addition, Rosharan has no inherent power, so aluminum spike would most likely remove the connection between Radiant and Spren (that being the only power they have, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91/#e779). However, since Nahel Bond is voluntary, the person and Spren could simply reestablish it afterwards (if Radiant survived).

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The thunderclast would be demolished long before any metal arts needed to be used, but if it got in range leechers might drain it of the investiture that gives it life or just use leecher infused allomantic grenades for the purpose.

If Thunderclast was destroyed conventionally they could just reform a body immediately. In addition, leecher would not be able to destroy Thunderclast/Fused/Spren since leeching operates like Larkin do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023), and the only Fused who died permanently dies due to Anti-light, despite Larkin being present for previous Desolations.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Flak is simply a timed explosive so Scadrial does have the tech to produce artillery with that capability and lots of bullets would have the same effect. Bye, Bye most Radiants along with all other soldiers.

The range and accuracy of windrunners is much less than that of guns and artillery. Besides in war why would you use a gun of any kind in the open if you didn't need to.

If it is timed explosive, than it explodes at mostly the same height, Gravitation user can change their altitude by ~50 meters in 3.8 secons with just a Single Lashing, good luck hitting them. Windrunner/Skybreaker can cover 1 km in ~25 seconds under single Lashing, and those of 3rd oath and above can use Spren as unbreakable shield. If they started 3 km away (far enough even Tin eye could not spot them) and then lashed themselves 6 times in direction of Scadrians, Rosharans would reach Scadrians in 20 seconds. Unless they could spot them, communicate that, point the gun in the correct direction (or directions) and fire in that time, they are toast.

Or you know, they could simply fly 2 km high with a boulder ~200 kg in weight, get over Scadrians position and lash the stone downwards. To use your phrasing: 'Bye bye hunkered down Scadrians/ships/heavy weapons'. Not to mention using Reverse lashing they could create homing weapons(per Raboniel Radiants of old did this), no need for too large accuracy when you have self-guided missiles. And their range is potentially unlimited since Lashed objects continues to accelerate, it all depends on how much Stormlight they can infuse.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

 Scadrial also has mechanical flying machines which further implies near 1920's tech. Though the air ships might imply an even higher level of tech.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It may not be an earth air ship but it is still mechanical they just use allomancy instead of fossil fuels.

No, Southern Scadrial has flying machines, and they are not mechanical, they are magical (you know, using primer cubes). Without magic they could not fly at all, they have no aerodynamics to speak off and are much heavier than air without usage of primer cubes so it primarily needs Feruchemy not allomancy.

Since Roshar has magical flying machines, are they also 1920's tech level or higher? No. From what we see in BoM, Southern Scadrial is more advanced in technological implications of Metallic Arts, and based on slip of Harmony they are also ahead at least in understanding electromagnetism (potentially having radios and such), but until seeing more of them we have no idea how much and in what ways.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One of the premises of this discussion is that Rosharan's and Scadrians are able to engage in the conflict and Scadrians are on Roshar so they had to get their through the CR somehow, but for now we know invested Rosharans cannot travel the other way.

Yes, the premise is that they can engage in conflict. That does not mean that suddenly they got powers they do not usually have, like Scadrians suddently being able to go to Cognitive. All it does mean is that both Rosharans and Scadrians are somehow both in the same place, and they can use their powers as usual on their planet, that is it.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and I do keep in mind surge limitiation and possibilities, but since the discussion in gerneral favors Radiants I see no need to ellaborate on Radiant advantages (which in my opinion many have been undersold because their advocates seem more concerned with down playing Metalic advantages instead).

Please do mention Rosharan advantages we are ignoring, the purpose of the thread is to try and determine strengths/weaknesses and maybe outcome of some conflicts (whether individual scale, or large scale). If you are holding some new information back, you are not really arguing in good faith.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind does have links to current relevant Primary sources for its articles. The WoB is full of outdated material.

Then use them, I do it too. WoBs usually mention other conflicting WoBs, could you show some outdated ones?

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We don't know where the Scadrians arrive on Roshar. The peaks are possible, but so is anywhere the Highstorm touches during a HighStorm (it has been theorized that it is Honors Perpendicularity while the peak pool is Cultivations).

So either underwater, or in the middle of a super-hurricane? Highstorm moves at ~500km/h, the wind streams inside it are faster, it moves faster then winds in the most extreme tornadoes! Highstorm is pretty much hurricane sized tornado, not a good point to start your invasion from. Either option is suicidal for Scadrians.

16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I will grant Scadrial has potentially smaller forces, but their weapons enable much more wide scale killing and their best weapons will work where ever they are. Coordinating between realms only takes 2 Seon's. Even though the forces would be split the majority would still be in the PR as with Scadrian weapons they would need fewer to defend the CR based on the limit of forces that could be brought against them. Jasna could be gunned down long before her soulcasting in the CR would become a major threat.

Not potentially, they do have smaller forces, by a factor of 10-20 times smaller in fact.

Also the thread is Scadrial vs Roshar, not Scadrial and stuff from other worlds vs Roshar and their stuff from other worlds. Should we start including Nightblood, Asterisk and Vasher in our discussions? Or the Change Dawnshard? If so, the fight becomes quite one-sided.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There may not be an equivalent anti-investiture on Scadrial. We are talking about destructive interference in waves and metals have no such thing. Anti-metal investiture is pure speculation with no supporting evidence like you complain I was doing. Seekers detect the rhytms of investiture.

You have been told multiple times, by multiple different people then metal is not investiture or invested on Scadrial. So again, metal in Allomancy serves as key, that is it (here are some WoBs saying that: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/74/#e4341 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/357/#e10589  , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/295/#e10097 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10133 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e856 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6839https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e402https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10753 ). I hope you will finally realize the point and will stop making false claims.

The investiture powering their abilities comes from Preservation/Harmony (or Ruin in Hemalurgically granted powers) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072), and is just like any other investiture, i.e. it has anti-investiture associated with it. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) anti-investiture is general concept, otherwise it could not be used to kill Cognitive Shadows generally (since Kelsier is a Shadow made of Preservation/Harmony investiture), relevant part:

Quote

So I needed another tool for the late part of the cosmere, when people have figured out Cognitive Shadows; How do you destroy a Cognitive Shadow? Well there are ways, but throw some anti-Investiture at them and that's guaranteed, you are gonna kill that Shadow ...

No specifiers that it concerns only Cognitive Shadow from Roshar, just CS in general, hence anti-investiture can be made for any given Shard.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

When are you going to come up with some possibly interesting uses of Radiant powers instead of just rehashing the same old things?

If you think we keep rehashing old things, why not write down interesting uses of Radiants powers yourself? No one is stopping you.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I even gave you some ideas earlier in the conversation, but you ignored them in favor of criticizing my Metal art ideas instead. Even Khriss in BoM thinks that twin combinations are potentially very powerful and interesting, why don't you see it?

Some are powerful and interesting, but interesting is not enough in Combat (blobfish are intersting), and most are simply not powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with even just 3rd Oath Radiant, being either slower/weaker/less dexterous or all three. There are exception like F-steel or F-gold with some A-powers, but vast majority is useless in combat, not to mention that Twinborn are less numerous than Radiants.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and also in BoM Wax did get much stronger and more resistant to damage when tapping his metalmind to push the train car as indicated when he pushed from the car and couldn't push as hard because he couldn't tap as much weight so was both weaker and more likely to crush himself if he pushed as hard as he could. He was only an Iron Ferring so was very limited in how much weight he could store.

If you are talking about Chapter 7 in BoM, he also does note that it felt like slamming into a wall. Increased mass means the train car will move instead of him. And even a normal person can push/pull a train a bit and get it moving, it is an old strongman feat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP00VmKx_No). When the train is still moving (like in Chapter 7) it is even easier.

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Really though I am surprised you are still responding to me because you said you thought this topic was over. If your responding because you want to convince me your opinion is right know this no matter how many times you say the same things it wont convince me because when I have looked up your references I didn't interpret them the same as you.

When you stop posting falsehoods (light=Stormlight, metals being investited/investiture , anti-investiture being only for Roshar, passive powers of aluminum, claiming Compounding takes seconds, etc.) people will stop replying so much.

Edited by therunner
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A note on the Lashings and F-iron topic that came up earlier:

Quote

clyguy

If Wax were to go to Roshar, and--he's a Skimmer, right? So he can change his weight--if he got Lashed in a different direction if he Stored his weight would that nullify some of the Lashing?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, you're going to make me think through this. *laughter* So Wax actually changes mass. And the Lashing only affects gravitational pull. So the answer is no because different things with different masses fall at the same speed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)
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On 5/1/2021 at 4:57 PM, Frustration said:

Also to drop it's weight

Magic in the Cosmere works on an unified theory https://wob.coppermind.net/events/339/#e10234 

Once you understand the basic principles the magic of the Cosmere makes sense https://wob.coppermind.net/events/463/#e14662

Energy matter and Investiture are interchangeable https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5093

Anti-investiture is a long standing part of the Cosmere https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623

All shards have their own anti-investiture, it wouldn't make sense with what we know for them to not.

You need to hit a very specific region to steal an atribute.

Bind points are mainly a concern for the recipient https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12283

Most are stolen form the heart https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221/#e7870

The Stormfather, Syl, and Ishar have all called it Honor's perpendicularity. If the Highstorm were Honor's perpendicularity you would think that they would mention that instead of just saying "it moves"

This is Scadrian vs Rosharan magics, that has become Scadrial vs Roshar, this isn't Scadrial and all the stuff it has stolen from other worlds vs Roshar and the stuff it has stolen from other worlds.

*Shallan

When there is a reason to get more creative, Scadrial hasn't shown itself to be enough of a threat for me to need to be more creative.

Intresting sure. Powerfull enough to singlehandedly stop the Rosharan Warmachine? nope.

And again I already gave you a Rosharan Win scenario, but you "didn't see the point" and until you reply to it I'm not going to offer you more.

I can't understand what you are trying to say.

And let you get the last word? not happening.

I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you.

On 5/2/2021 at 3:09 AM, therunner said:

You writing down repeatedly disproved assertions, or claiming we have not discussed points that were in fact discussed is getting a bit tiresome.

Economics of warfare were discussed previously (as Frustration pointed out). But to recap

  1. Scadrial has advantage in being able to scale production, but they are limited by their population (if they are building/mining/moving, they cannot be fighting), and in logistics (trains, but only in Elendel Basin and centered on Elendel, fabrial aircraft but only SoScad).
  2. Roshar has advantage in: production of raw resources (no need for mining due to Soulcasting), speed of production of simple items (food, swords, helmets, etc. more Soulcasting), logistics (mainly on Roshar via Oathgates and Fourth Bridge, Elsecallers/Willshapers supported by a ship in CR -> anywhere, Gravitation for traversing difficult terrain), and finally Roshar has much larger population (10-20 times the size) and parts of their population mature much faster (Singers).

Economics really do not favor Scadrial.

I do not know where you are getting that Aluminum can do all this. Aluminum does following

  1. Resists being invested/affected by investiture leading to ignoring pushes/pulls (Mistborn), gravitation (SA), soulcasting (SA), forgery (Emperor's Soul), healing (pretty much any direct interaction of investiture with aluminum).
  2. Blocks flow of investiture this leads to storing Invested liquid from shardpool (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316/#e9233), blocking rioting/soothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10821), blocking Connection lines (maybe,  since it can shield metal from being visible to allomancer), hiding Rhythms/Pulses (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/356/#e10532), interference effect in conjoiner Fabrials (which consists of a single spren in two stones, in other Fabrials such effect is not confirmed to occur, RoW).

These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:

  1. Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)
  2. Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)
  3. Turn off investiture (no such effect)
  4. Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)

In metallic arts it does the following

  1. Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.
  2. Feruchemy, store Identity.
  3. Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy).

Now the only interesting in combat is Hemalurgy, but you need to 1) Hit correct bind point. 2) Do so with Intent. Since human body has around 200-300 bind points (and a lot of them are in heart), each metal has ~13-19 binds (assuming equal distribution). If someone is facing you, you can see only 7-10 binds points for one metal, and at least one of those is in the heart, so good luck hitting them with a gun (since the bind points are not that large, if multiple can fit on heart).

So, what you are saying above is wrong, there not dozens for individual metals, there is at best ~20. Anywhere will not do for aluminum, there is no reason why it should be special among all the others, your speculation is not fact (especially when it is supported by exactly nothing). It is not anti-investiture spike, it just removes powers, if it was anti-investiture it would be much more explodey.

In addition, Rosharan has no inherent power, so aluminum spike would most likely remove the connection between Radiant and Spren (that being the only power they have, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/91/#e779). However, since Nahel Bond is voluntary, the person and Spren could simply reestablish it afterwards (if Radiant survived).

If Thunderclast was destroyed conventionally they could just reform a body immediately. In addition, leecher would not be able to destroy Thunderclast/Fused/Spren since leeching operates like Larkin do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13/#e5023), and the only Fused who died permanently dies due to Anti-light, despite Larkin being present for previous Desolations.

If it is timed explosive, than it explodes at mostly the same height, Gravitation user can change their altitude by ~50 meters in 3.8 secons with just a Single Lashing, good luck hitting them. Windrunner/Skybreaker can cover 1 km in ~25 seconds under single Lashing, and those of 3rd oath and above can use Spren as unbreakable shield. If they started 3 km away (far enough even Tin eye could not spot them) and then lashed themselves 6 times in direction of Scadrians, Rosharans would reach Scadrians in 20 seconds. Unless they could spot them, communicate that, point the gun in the correct direction (or directions) and fire in that time, they are toast.

Or you know, they could simply fly 2 km high with a boulder ~200 kg in weight, get over Scadrians position and lash the stone downwards. To use your phrasing: 'Bye bye hunkered down Scadrians/ships/heavy weapons'. Not to mention using Reverse lashing they could create homing weapons(per Raboniel Radiants of old did this), no need for too large accuracy when you have self-guided missiles. And their range is potentially unlimited since Lashed objects continues to accelerate, it all depends on how much Stormlight they can infuse.

No, Southern Scadrial has flying machines, and they are not mechanical, they are magical (you know, using primer cubes). Without magic they could not fly at all, they have no aerodynamics to speak off and are much heavier than air without usage of primer cubes so it primarily needs Feruchemy not allomancy.

Since Roshar has magical flying machines, are they also 1920's tech level or higher? No. From what we see in BoM, Southern Scadrial is more advanced in technological implications of Metallic Arts, and based on slip of Harmony they are also ahead at least in understanding electromagnetism (potentially having radios and such), but until seeing more of them we have no idea how much and in what ways.

Yes, the premise is that they can engage in conflict. That does not mean that suddenly they got powers they do not usually have, like Scadrians suddently being able to go to Cognitive. All it does mean is that both Rosharans and Scadrians are somehow both in the same place, and they can use their powers as usual on their planet, that is it.

Please do mention Rosharan advantages we are ignoring, the purpose of the thread is to try and determine strengths/weaknesses and maybe outcome of some conflicts (whether individual scale, or large scale). If you are holding some new information back, you are not really arguing in good faith.

Then use them, I do it too. WoBs usually mention other conflicting WoBs, could you show some outdated ones?

So either underwater, or in the middle of a super-hurricane? Highstorm moves at ~500km/h, the wind streams inside it are faster, it moves faster then winds in the most extreme tornadoes! Highstorm is pretty much hurricane sized tornado, not a good point to start your invasion from. Either option is suicidal for Scadrians.

Not potentially, they do have smaller forces, by a factor of 10-20 times smaller in fact.

Also the thread is Scadrial vs Roshar, not Scadrial and stuff from other worlds vs Roshar and their stuff from other worlds. Should we start including Nightblood, Asterisk and Vasher in our discussions? Or the Change Dawnshard? If so, the fight becomes quite one-sided.

You have been told multiple times, by multiple different people then metal is not investiture or invested on Scadrial. So again, metal in Allomancy serves as key, that is it (here are some WoBs saying that: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/74/#e4341 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/357/#e10589  , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/295/#e10097 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10133 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6129https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e856 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77/#e6839https://wob.coppermind.net/events/39/#e402https://wob.coppermind.net/events/358/#e10753 ). I hope you will finally realize the point and will stop making false claims.

The investiture powering their abilities comes from Preservation/Harmony (or Ruin in Hemalurgically granted powers) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6072), and is just like any other investiture, i.e. it has anti-investiture associated with it. Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) anti-investiture is general concept, otherwise it could not be used to kill Cognitive Shadows generally (since Kelsier is a Shadow made of Preservation/Harmony investiture), relevant part:

No specifiers that it concerns only Cognitive Shadow from Roshar, just CS in general, hence anti-investiture can be made for any given Shard.

If you think we keep rehashing old things, why not write down interesting uses of Radiants powers yourself? No one is stopping you.

Some are powerful and interesting, but interesting is not enough in Combat (blobfish are intersting), and most are simply not powerful enough to go toe-to-toe with even just 3rd Oath Radiant, being either slower/weaker/less dexterous or all three. There are exception like F-steel or F-gold with some A-powers, but vast majority is useless in combat, not to mention that Twinborn are less numerous than Radiants.

If you are talking about Chapter 7 in BoM, he also does note that it felt like slamming into a wall. Increased mass means the train car will move instead of him. And even a normal person can push/pull a train a bit and get it moving, it is an old strongman feat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP00VmKx_No). When the train is still moving (like in Chapter 7) it is even easier.

When you stop posting falsehoods (light=Stormlight, metals being investited/investiture , anti-investiture being only for Roshar, passive powers of aluminum, claiming Compounding takes seconds, etc.) people will stop replying so much.

I think Scadrial has more potential ability to scale up production well in excess to Roshar. The reason is that to produce the fabrials is limited to a few artisans and by the number of available spren at any given time. Scadrial has the potential for ramped up assembly lines using machines and is not limited by the need of artisans and spren.

You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it.

Your following statements seem to contradict each other:

"These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:

Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)

Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)

Turn off investiture (no such effect)

Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)

In metallic arts it does the following

Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.

Feruchemy, store Identity.

Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)."

it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes.

Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont.

Feruchemists build up their investiture in their metalminds and in the case of compounders they are filling it with Harmony granted investiure instead of storing only their own attributes for later use. They are fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy and doing so with what amounts to an ever increasing pipe like from a straw, to a garden hose, to a fire hose, to a water main and beyond. It is hinted that their may be a way to compound allomancy with feruchemy but we don't have any examples or descriptions of that yet. So yes I understand that metal only opens the investiture pipe for use. Metalminds must have incredible capasity since Wax could store tens or even hundreds of thousands of pound of weight in his. For that matter they seemed nearly limitless. Wayne's limit wasn't his metalminds but how difficult it was to store health.

As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says:

Other anti-Investiture[edit]

It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture.

So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans.

Scadrian weapons really could be 200 times more effective and lethal than Medievil weaponry (Swords, sheilds, pikes and such). A civil war era battalion(Scadrial) with repeating rifles, machine guns, and artillery would decimate whole armies of Arthurian soldiers(Roshar). Most Radiants would also be vulnerable to those weapons before they could strike and could be detected so surprise is not on their side. Some potential metalborn could go toe to toe with any Radiant at any oath and with battalion support would devastate virtually any army Roshar could field. Numbers don't mean you will win. A good example of this where Tech trumps numbers is in the David Weber Series of Safehold, and they start at roughly Renesance tech planet wide.

Sorry we will just need to agree to disagree that you can't use right frequency of light to kill Radiants. Stormlight is light and nothing any of you has quoted has proven otherwise to me to the contrary from my perspective It further supports my opinion.

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A note on the Lashings and F-iron topic that came up earlier:

Fair enough, but if he tapped weight he would potentially become a battering ram until the lash ran out and could mitigate any fall by storing all of it during his fall. Plus when Wax changes weight/mass he said his speed changes as a result. BoM on the dance floor with Khriss. Someone who could compound would have even more control and would be even more of a threat. The rail car scene in BoM shows that Wax's durability does increase with his weight to compensate. He was more durable when he pushed the car from the tracks than when he was on the car because he could afford to tap more weight there and did. One of the things he needed to be careful of on the car was crushing himself by pushing to hard when that wasn't a worry on the tracks.

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9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you.

Ignoring the fact that everything in Cosmere works off the same basic principles is not an interpretation. You cannot just decide to ignore what the author says (the WoBs Frustration linked) about the basic working of his world.

 

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I think Scadrial has more potential ability to scale up production well in excess to Roshar. The reason is that to produce the fabrials is limited to a few artisans and by the number of available spren at any given time. Scadrial has the potential for ramped up assembly lines using machines and is not limited by the need of artisans and spren.

Scadrial does not have automated factories, so those factories still need a lot of workers. They are not as limited as Roshar is when it comes to scaling production, but they need to also mine, refine and transport resources before any manufacture takes place, steps Roshar can side step if needed.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it.

What are the downsides to soulcasted material? It is normal matter, there is no difference between it and naturally occurring one, as far as I am aware.

It is stormlight intensive that is true, but as Stormlight is renewable relatively quickly, that is a non issue. Off-world that is another matter, but in the same way Scadrial would have not infrastructure needed to build factories off-world. The gems might prove a bigger issue, that is true, however it is hard to quantify just how much of an issue it is. Savantism still takes months/years to get to, and for Radiants it is even longer. In addition, within a highstorm Radiant soulcaster can do almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12723), so with some small cooperation with Stormfather they have quite high potential on production.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Your following statements seem to contradict each other:

Quote

"These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:

Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)

Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)

Turn off investiture (no such effect)

Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)

In metallic arts it does the following

Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.

Feruchemy, store Identity.

Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)."

 

There is no contradiction, first I listed what aluminum does on its own, no Invested Art needed. On its own aluminum does not turn off investiture or neutralize it.

In Allomancy, while burning, it removes kinetic investiture of allomancer, but that is a magical application not just anyone can access. (eg. Just like tin does not make anyone senses stronger, just allomancers), and Chromium does very similar thing, only externally (so it is not power unique to aluminum, but a function of Metallic arts). In Hemalurgy, when applied to correct bind point with Intent, it removes powers, i.e. invested abilities.

I separated it like this, to make it clear that on its own aluminum has no neutralizing/turning off effects, only when used to power Metallic arts does it gain some similar attributes.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes.

H-Aluminum removes powers, so it is not neutralizing/turning-off investiture. If it was neutralizing/turning-off investiture it should have no problem removing Breaths but they cannot be stolen(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282). It would not remove Stormlight, as Stormlight is not power but Investiture (H-Nicrosil steals Investiture, although what exactly that means is unknown), in Radiant it should remove the bond and as a result the Stormlight would leave the Radiant but the Stormlight itself should be untouched.

Why is it reasonable to assume that any of 100's of bind points will do, when other metals require specific ones? What argument is there for aluminum being exceptional? Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5969) you need to drive a spike through specific point on a body to rip off a specific piece of soul, not much wiggle room for aluminum being special.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont.

Since no one in the entire history of Roshar noted effect of aluminum on spren, and Huio discovered it by accident, is sounds like something they do only in some very specific circumstances. The conjoiner fabrial is the only place where spren seem to be affected as such, and it is coincidentally also the only place where a single spren was cut in two pieces (something that could count as very specific circumstances).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Feruchemists build up their investiture in their metalminds and in the case of compounders they are filling it with Harmony granted investiure instead of storing only their own attributes for later use. They are fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy and doing so with what amounts to an ever increasing pipe like from a straw, to a garden hose, to a fire hose, to a water main and beyond. It is hinted that their may be a way to compound allomancy with feruchemy but we don't have any examples or descriptions of that yet. So yes I understand that metal only opens the investiture pipe for use.

If you understand that metallic arts are fueled by Shards, why were you talking about "anti-metal investiture", when there is no such thing as "metal investiture"? (God metals notwithstanding)

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

 Metalminds must have incredible capasity since Wax could store tens or even hundreds of thousands of pound of weight in his. For that matter they seemed nearly limitless. Wayne's limit wasn't his metalminds but how difficult it was to store health.

I do not see how this is relevant? Yes, metalminds can have large capacities, but why is it relevant for this discussion, since no one is disputing that? The closest we have come to this point is when saying that even full metalminds are still much less invested than a Shardblade.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says:

Other anti-Investiture[edit]

It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture.

So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans.

Again, read this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) and tell me where is Brandon saying anti-investiture is applicable only to Roshar. Tell me how can you use anti-investiture to kill Cognitive Shadows (in general), if anti-investiture is a thing only for Rosharan investiture.

As you said, Scadrian powers are coming from Harmonies investiture, and everything has anti-investiture, so why should Scadrial be exceptional? Sure, their gaseous investiture does not have form of Something-light, so the process to create anti-investiture would be different, but that is far cry from it being Realmatically impossible.

Why would matter X anti-matter annihilation release anti-light? Why not regular *-light? Or better yet, why would it release pure Shardic investiture at all?

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrian weapons really could be 200 times more effective and lethal than Medievil weaponry (Swords, sheilds, pikes and such). A civil war era battalion(Scadrial) with repeating rifles, machine guns, and artillery would decimate whole armies of Arthurian soldiers(Roshar). Most Radiants would also be vulnerable to those weapons before they could strike and could be detected so surprise is not on their side. Some potential metalborn could go toe to toe with any Radiant at any oath and with battalion support would devastate virtually any army Roshar could field. Numbers don't mean you will win.

I would not say 200 times, but Scadrial weaponry is definitely more lethal, no arguments there.

But you are completely ignoring my arguments for why it would be difficult to hit Windrunners/Skybreakers, so I do not think they hit them as easily as you assume. Gravitation user moves fast and in very different manner (continuous acceleration and nearly arbitrary changes of direction) than anything Scadrial ever encountered (yes even Coinshots). Not to mention Elsecallers (soulcasting from CR), or Willshapers (dropping on top of Scadrians from CR). Not to mention you ignoring Thunderclasts (what will Scadrians do, when the ground they have encampment on rises up, taking their structures with it?), Fused, Stormform (all that conductive metal near Scadrians), or Unmade (Heart of Revel in the middle of Scadrian high command, that would be something).

Instead of saying there are metalborn who can go toe-to-toe with Radiant, why don't you give specific examples you have in mind? I assume you mean some others than those with F-steel. EDIT: And do tell which metalborn could go toe-to-toe with 4th Oath and higher, I am curious about that. And shooting them in the head when they do not know they are in combat does not count as going toe-to-toe.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Numbers don't mean you will win. A good example of this where Tech trumps numbers is in the David Weber Series of Safehold, and they start at roughly Renesance tech planet wide.

True, but greater numbers (and greater replacement numbers) mean you do not have to be as lethal as your opponent to win. Singers mature about 2 times as fast as humans, so Roshar can replenish their forces at twice the rate Scadrial can, and they already start with population 10-20 times larger.

Also different fictional series is not a good argument by any stretch, otherwise I would simply point to Ewoks vs Empire (Ewoks were less advanced than Rosharans, and Empire more advanced then Scadrial, and yet Ewoks took them down).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Sorry we will just need to agree to disagree that you can't use right frequency of light to kill Radiants. Stormlight is light and nothing any of you has quoted has proven otherwise to me to the contrary from my perspective It further supports my opinion.

Alright, so if Stormlight is light, that means all Truthwatchers and all Lightweavers can now create Stormlight/Voidlight/Anti-lights, removing the greatest weakspot of Radiants. Not to mention being able to produce any gaseous anti-investiture at will. ;)

(In case sarcasm did not register, again Stormlight=\= Ordinary light, even Coppermind says that "Stormlight is a form of gaseous investiture" and the page on Investiture lists Scadrian mists along side Stormlight. So either gaseous investiture is not ordinary light (this is true), or Radiants with Illumination can explode Allomancers/Hemalurgists, Scadrian fabrials and Cognitive Shadows at will. And per this WoB, the light Stormlight is giving off is directly from Spiritual Realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6389), so the light in Stormlight is not per se needed for Stormlight to be Stormlight, it is only a side effect.).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Fair enough, but if he tapped weight he would potentially become a battering ram until the lash ran out and could mitigate any fall by storing all of it during his fall. Plus when Wax changes weight/mass he said his speed changes as a result. BoM on the dance floor with Khriss. Someone who could compound would have even more control and would be even more of a threat. The rail car scene in BoM shows that Wax's durability does increase with his weight to compensate. He was more durable when he pushed the car from the tracks than when he was on the car because he could afford to tap more weight there and did. One of the things he needed to be careful of on the car was crushing himself by pushing to hard when that wasn't a worry on the tracks.

Yes, he could use storing/tapping to manipulate his fall, but that is not cancelling it. And anyone in the air (unless they have A-steel/A-iron and are near metals) have no way to manouver properly, making them great targets for Radiants flying around.

His durability in pushing the train car is not outside of normal human range (or a little). He is not bullet proof when tapping weight, nor stab proof (and Shardblades would ignore that anyway).

Edited by therunner
Spelling, one additional point
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13 hours ago, therunner said:

Ignoring the fact that everything in Cosmere works off the same basic principles is not an interpretation. You cannot just decide to ignore what the author says (the WoBs Frustration linked) about the basic working of his world.

 

Scadrial does not have automated factories, so those factories still need a lot of workers. They are not as limited as Roshar is when it comes to scaling production, but they need to also mine, refine and transport resources before any manufacture takes place, steps Roshar can side step if needed.

What are the downsides to soulcasted material? It is normal matter, there is no difference between it and naturally occurring one, as far as I am aware.

It is stormlight intensive that is true, but as Stormlight is renewable relatively quickly, that is a non issue. Off-world that is another matter, but in the same way Scadrial would have not infrastructure needed to build factories off-world. The gems might prove a bigger issue, that is true, however it is hard to quantify just how much of an issue it is. Savantism still takes months/years to get to, and for Radiants it is even longer. In addition, within a highstorm Radiant soulcaster can do almost anything (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12723), so with some small cooperation with Stormfather they have quite high potential on production.

There is no contradiction, first I listed what aluminum does on its own, no Invested Art needed. On its own aluminum does not turn off investiture or neutralize it.

In Allomancy, while burning, it removes kinetic investiture of allomancer, but that is a magical application not just anyone can access. (eg. Just like tin does not make anyone senses stronger, just allomancers), and Chromium does very similar thing, only externally (so it is not power unique to aluminum, but a function of Metallic arts). In Hemalurgy, when applied to correct bind point with Intent, it removes powers, i.e. invested abilities.

I separated it like this, to make it clear that on its own aluminum has no neutralizing/turning off effects, only when used to power Metallic arts does it gain some similar attributes.

H-Aluminum removes powers, so it is not neutralizing/turning-off investiture. If it was neutralizing/turning-off investiture it should have no problem removing Breaths but they cannot be stolen(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282). It would not remove Stormlight, as Stormlight is not power but Investiture (H-Nicrosil steals Investiture, although what exactly that means is unknown), in Radiant it should remove the bond and as a result the Stormlight would leave the Radiant but the Stormlight itself should be untouched.

Why is it reasonable to assume that any of 100's of bind points will do, when other metals require specific ones? What argument is there for aluminum being exceptional? Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/202/#e5969) you need to drive a spike through specific point on a body to rip off a specific piece of soul, not much wiggle room for aluminum being special.

Since no one in the entire history of Roshar noted effect of aluminum on spren, and Huio discovered it by accident, is sounds like something they do only in some very specific circumstances. The conjoiner fabrial is the only place where spren seem to be affected as such, and it is coincidentally also the only place where a single spren was cut in two pieces (something that could count as very specific circumstances).

If you understand that metallic arts are fueled by Shards, why were you talking about "anti-metal investiture", when there is no such thing as "metal investiture"? (God metals notwithstanding)

I do not see how this is relevant? Yes, metalminds can have large capacities, but why is it relevant for this discussion, since no one is disputing that? The closest we have come to this point is when saying that even full metalminds are still much less invested than a Shardblade.

Again, read this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) and tell me where is Brandon saying anti-investiture is applicable only to Roshar. Tell me how can you use anti-investiture to kill Cognitive Shadows (in general), if anti-investiture is a thing only for Rosharan investiture.

As you said, Scadrian powers are coming from Harmonies investiture, and everything has anti-investiture, so why should Scadrial be exceptional? Sure, their gaseous investiture does not have form of Something-light, so the process to create anti-investiture would be different, but that is far cry from it being Realmatically impossible.

Why would matter X anti-matter annihilation release anti-light? Why not regular *-light? Or better yet, why would it release pure Shardic investiture at all?

I would not say 200 times, but Scadrial weaponry is definitely more lethal, no arguments there.

But you are completely ignoring my arguments for why it would be difficult to hit Windrunners/Skybreakers, so I do not think they hit them as easily as you assume. Gravitation user moves fast and in very different manner (continuous acceleration and nearly arbitrary changes of direction) than anything Scadrial ever encountered (yes even Coinshots). Not to mention Elsecallers (soulcasting from CR), or Willshapers (dropping on top of Scadrians from CR). Not to mention you ignoring Thunderclasts (what will Scadrians do, when the ground they have encampment on rises up, taking their structures with it?), Fused, Stormform (all that conductive metal near Scadrians), or Unmade (Heart of Revel in the middle of Scadrian high command, that would be something).

Instead of saying there are metalborn who can go toe-to-toe with Radiant, why don't you give specific examples you have in mind? I assume you mean some others than those with F-steel. EDIT: And do tell which metalborn could go toe-to-toe with 4th Oath and higher, I am curious about that. And shooting them in the head when they do not know they are in combat does not count as going toe-to-toe.

True, but greater numbers (and greater replacement numbers) mean you do not have to be as lethal as your opponent to win. Singers mature about 2 times as fast as humans, so Roshar can replenish their forces at twice the rate Scadrial can, and they already start with population 10-20 times larger.

Also different fictional series is not a good argument by any stretch, otherwise I would simply point to Ewoks vs Empire (Ewoks were less advanced than Rosharans, and Empire more advanced then Scadrial, and yet Ewoks took them down).

Alright, so if Stormlight is light, that means all Truthwatchers and all Lightweavers can now create Stormlight/Voidlight/Anti-lights, removing the greatest weakspot of Radiants. Not to mention being able to produce any gaseous anti-investiture at will. ;)

(In case sarcasm did not register, again Stormlight=\= Ordinary light, even Coppermind says that "Stormlight is a form of gaseous investiture" and the page on Investiture lists Scadrian mists along side Stormlight. So either gaseous investiture is not ordinary light (this is true), or Radiants with Illumination can explode Allomancers/Hemalurgists, Scadrian fabrials and Cognitive Shadows at will. And per this WoB, the light Stormlight is giving off is directly from Spiritual Realm (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6389), so the light in Stormlight is not per se needed for Stormlight to be Stormlight, it is only a side effect.).

Yes, he could use storing/tapping to manipulate his fall, but that is not cancelling it. And anyone in the air (unless they have A-steel/A-iron and are near metals) have no way to manouver properly, making them great targets for Radiants flying around.

His durability in pushing the train car is not outside of normal human range (or a little). He is not bullet proof when tapping weight, nor stab proof (and Shardblades would ignore that anyway).

It seems obvious to me that we read the same WoB's and whatever and interpret them different.

I will address Aluminum one more time. When a person burns aluminum metals disappear. When a person uses a hemalurgic spike of aluminum powers disappear. It doesn't grant or steal any investiture or power to any recipient either allomantically or hemalugically. It is unique in this being a reactive metal that is entirely inert in almost every way. It has been described as an investiture sink which would indicate that investiture or power goes in but doesn't go out. How or why it does this hasn't been explained yet, but any aluminum fired with the intent that it be a hemalugic spike would if it penetrates to blood wipe all power. I interpret that as being stormlight in Radiants, but it could mean they lose their Radiant status permanently since it says power not investiture like it does in allomancy. In addition some have said that it must pierce the heart, but if it did the Radiant would be dead regardless since the aluminum would stop the heart from healing thus killing them. The Radiant who gets hit with an aluminum bullet, shrapnel or other spike would likely lose all their stormlight and would not likely be able to use stormlight until it was removed. Skybreakers and windrunners would fall from the sky if they were flying, edgedancers immediately stop being slippery, and no surges of any kind would work because their would be no stormlight to power them. It is not anti-investiture it is the scientific counter investiture metal.

Lurchers and coinshots do have ways to maneuver in the air regardless which direction they are lashed. I didn't say Wax was bullet proof and I have my own opinion of why that is, but his bones and muscles were stronger to handle the increased mass. By definition increased mass in the same volume is increased density, which would enable that person to have potentially massive strength particularly if they could compound. It also doesn't mean the density needs to be uniform and probably isn't. If Wax were storing 25% of his weight every day from age 20 to 60 and never tapped it his maximum weight stored would be almost 1.1 million lbs if he weighs 200 lbs. If he were an Iron compounder after compoiunding 5 times he would have 5 million lbs of available weight and could be 25,000 times denser for 1 day. He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted. Depending on how long it takes him to burn the metal mind and store the weight to compound say 1 hour (I think it is much faster) in 1 day (initial storeage time) and 5 hours of time he would have that available. We know Wax's bracers hold hundreds of thousands of pounds because he has tapped that much.

Forgive me for saying this. I don't think many of you have really thought through the potential inherent in the metal arts. It seems as if in the Future Scadrial and Roshar will be at a stalemate in terms of power so there must be something that some of you are overlooking when saying that the contest is uneven and Roshar is likely to win. Right now they can't have a conflict because neither can leave their system in force. Radiants and Fused can't travel at all and Scadrians have difficulty reaching the CR (Some do or no Ghostbloods).

I have given many specific examples look back and see. No I don't think those examples have been disproved I just got tired of trying to convince you since obviously we disagree which doesn't make either me or you right or wrong, it just means we will need to wait and see who is right if any of us are. I have even given creative Radiant examples of potential power uses that have been ignored recently.

I appreciate the effort you have taken I am just not convinced by your arguments enough to change my opinion of what I have read in the Cosmere. I don't ignore the author I disagree with what you think the author is saying of the principles he has presented and those not explained. He is intentionally vague.

That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.

Edited by BenduLuke
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2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted.

Feruchemical iron does not increase density.

AoL 19, Wax explicitly says it does not increase density and he cannot become bulletproof:

Quote

Wax drew every bit of weight he had left, draining his metalminds completely. That was hundreds upon hundreds of hours of weight, enough to make him crush paving stones if he tried to walk on them. In the strange way of Feruchemy, he didn’t grow more dense—bullets would still cut through him easily if they hit. But with this incredible conflux of weight, his ability to Push grew incredible.

WoB where Brandon says there's not really a way to explain it scientifically, but it is not density:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Six

The fight in the ballroom

From the early days of the Mistborn books, I'd been planning how an Allomantic gunfight would go down. I felt it the next evolution in what has been stylistically a big part of these books.

There is a fine line to walk in a lot of these sequences. I've made something of a name for myself in the fantasy world by attempting to mix some scientific reasoning with my magic systems. At the same time, Allomancy was designed precisely with action sequences in mind. I wanted them to be powerful and cinematic—and a cinematic fight sequence is often at odds with realism. (Watch two people who really know what they're doing fight with swords sometime, then watch any fight sequence in a film. Most of the time, the film sequences stray far from what would really happen.)

So, as I said, I walk a line. Sometimes, there are things I just can't do because they violate what I've set up as the rules of the world. Other times, I design the setting and nature of the fight specifically to allow for certain types of cinematic sequences. One thing I like a lot about Wax’s abilities is the power he has to manipulate his weight. There's some realism to what he does—for example, increasing his weight doesn't make him fall more quickly, but it allows him to do some powerful things while falling. Destroying the chandeliers is an example.

At the same time, I acknowledge that the weight manipulation aspect of Feruchemy is one of its more baffling powers, scientifically. Is he changing his mass? If so, he should become more dense, which I don't actually make the case when it plays out in fights. (Otherwise, increasing his weight enough would make him impervious to bullets.) So, if it's not mass manipulation, is it gravity manipulation, like Szeth and Kaladin do? Well, again, not really—as when his weight increases, his strength and ability to uphold that weight increase as well. Beyond that, Wax can't make himself so light that he has no weight at all.

So . . . well, at this point, the ability to explain it scientifically breaks down. I do like what it does, but I have to set its boundaries and stick to them—and accept that some of what's going on is irrational. (And don't get me started on what should really be happening scientifically when Wayne speeds up time.)

Footnote: Brandon has stated that iron Feruchemy works by manipulating the Higgs field.
The Alloy of Law Annotations (March 14, 2014)

WoB that confirms that when Sazed says his density increases, it's a misunderstanding of what is actually occurring:

Quote

Questioner

I remember in, I believe it was Hero of the Ages, when Sazed was helping TenSoon escape. When he had fallen on the guard, he said that, by increasing his weight he also increases his density so he doesn't <hurt> himself. Then in The Alloy of Law, it also says that when Wax increases his weight he said that he didn't.

Brandon Sanderson

So, Sazed is just making a mistake. He's mistaking the fact when he increases his weight his musculature changes to be able to handle the new weight and that was what he was talking about. Strength and muscle tone and things like that. I might have just gotten it wrong in the original one [scene], I can't honestly remember, but this is what we kinda decided it needs to be.

Shadows of Self San Jose signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
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10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I will address Aluminum one more time. When a person burns aluminum metals disappear. When a person uses a hemalurgic spike of aluminum powers disappear. It doesn't grant or steal any investiture or power to any recipient either allomantically or hemalugically. It is unique in this being a reactive metal that is entirely inert in almost every way. It has been described as an investiture sink which would indicate that investiture or power goes in but doesn't go out. How or why it does this hasn't been explained yet, but any aluminum fired with the intent that it be a hemalugic spike would if it penetrates to blood wipe all power. I interpret that as being stormlight in Radiants, but it could mean they lose their Radiant status permanently since it says power not investiture like it does in allomancy. In addition some have said that it must pierce the heart, but if it did the Radiant would be dead regardless since the aluminum would stop the heart from healing thus killing them. The Radiant who gets hit with an aluminum bullet, shrapnel or other spike would likely lose all their stormlight and would not likely be able to use stormlight until it was removed. Skybreakers and windrunners would fall from the sky if they were flying, edgedancers immediately stop being slippery, and no surges of any kind would work because their would be no stormlight to power them. It is not anti-investiture it is the scientific counter investiture metal.

I mostly agree with all of this, I partly disagree on Stormlight being removed (I think it would not, as Stormlight is not Power, but Investiture) and I disagree that any aluminum piercing with Intent anywhere will remove powers. All of Hemalurgy rests on two things 1) Intent, and 2) Bind points, and I simply do not see why should aluminum be special in this regard when there is no evidence for this.

So yeah, I think if you can hit Radiant in one of 14-19 locations that correspond to Aluminum, you will remove their Bond to spren as that is their Power, but you need to hit those bind points first. The only on the fly examples of Hemalurgy were performed by people guided by Ruin, not by a person on their own, they tied those people down.

So even if you started shooting a machine gun and Radiant were bunched up in such a way you could hit hundreds of them at once, I think you would be lucky to spike one. And of course, the spren could then go and bond someone else, so unless you hit someone of 3rd oath, you have the same amount of Radiants as before.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Lurchers and coinshots do have ways to maneuver in the air regardless which direction they are lashed.

I...said the same thing about lurchers and coinshots?

23 hours ago, therunner said:

And anyone in the air (unless they have A-steel/A-iron and are near metals) have no way to manouver properly, making them great targets for Radiants flying around.

So I do not know what you meant by this.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I didn't say Wax was bullet proof and I have my own opinion of why that is, but his bones and muscles were stronger to handle the increased mass. By definition increased mass in the same volume is increased density, which would enable that person to have potentially massive strength particularly if they could compound. It also doesn't mean the density needs to be uniform and probably isn't. If Wax were storing 25% of his weight every day from age 20 to 60 and never tapped it his maximum weight stored would be almost 1.1 million lbs if he weighs 200 lbs. If he were an Iron compounder after compoiunding 5 times he would have 5 million lbs of available weight and could be 25,000 times denser for 1 day. He would probably be more than bullet proof if he wanted. Depending on how long it takes him to burn the metal mind and store the weight to compound say 1 hour (I think it is much faster) in 1 day (initial storeage time) and 5 hours of time he would have that available. We know Wax's bracers hold hundreds of thousands of pounds because he has tapped that much.

LewsTherinTelescope already addressed Wax's increased mass is not actually increasing his density (or resistance to damage) using both books and WoBs, so I will not address it further.

Also three things on your example:

  1. I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10, as I have not idea how to replicate them. If he is storing ~50lbs at all times (he can only store when awake), we would get 50*16(usable hours in day)*365(days in year)*40(years)=~11.6 million lbs *hours, so ten times as much, and I really do not see how to just reduce by a factor of 10 (although I might be missing something obvious).
  2. Compounding multiplies stores by 10x, so after compounding 5 times he would not have 5 times as much, but 10^5 times as much.
  3. You are again neglecting loses from tapping faster, so those hypothetical 5 million lbs*hours would not be usable to increase his weight 25000x for 1 hour, the loss would be something like 10^(-10000), so you would not get even a single pico-second of that weight (frankly there is no time interval short enough to describe it properly).
11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Forgive me for saying this. I don't think many of you have really thought through the potential inherent in the metal arts. It seems as if in the Future Scadrial and Roshar will be at a stalemate in terms of power so there must be something that some of you are overlooking when saying that the contest is uneven and Roshar is likely to win. Right now they can't have a conflict because neither can leave their system in force. Radiants and Fused can't travel at all and Scadrians have difficulty reaching the CR (Some do or no Ghostbloods).

In the future there will definitely be developments we cannot even begin to predict (i.e. what the hell Voidbinding is, how medallions are made, how to achieve FTL with Metallic arts, what spiritual metals actually do, etc.). But as things stand now (Roshar = post-RoW, Scadrial= post-BoM) Roshar has stronger and more flexible magic, larger population, better replacement numbers, while Scadrial has more advanced earth-equivalent technology.

The thread was positited as this

Quote

So, has reading RoW changed anyone's mind about the battle between Radiants and Mistborn? Which Twinborn matchups can the Radiants now win? How many Radiants to kill a Fullborn?

and then evolved further from that to include total war between Roshar and Scadrial, with the necessary assumption that you somehow place them on the same world and they retain their magic and other useful tools. So if you say "Right now they can't have conflict" you are dismissing both the basic and evolved thesis of this thread.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I appreciate the effort you have taken I am just not convinced by your arguments enough to change my opinion of what I have read in the Cosmere. I don't ignore the author I disagree with what you think the author is saying of the principles he has presented and those not explained. He is intentionally vague.

You dismissed all Frustration wrote by saying you "don't agree with [his] interpretation of how the Cosmere works ", which is ok in some ways. But a large point of his post was that all of Cosmere works on the same underlying principles (with WoBs to support that), and that is something you cannot just choose to dismiss. For example

Quote

  I wanted to tell about a universe where there was a unified theory of magic, where magic worked according to a unifying principle. Despite the magic systems looking very different and doing lots of different and interesting things, hopefully original for each book, there is an underlying rationale that is keeping them all together. I write what I find interesting, and that was interesting to me. From (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/339/#e10234)

please tell me how the above is vague.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I have given many specific examples look back and see. No I don't think those examples have been disproved I just got tired of trying to convince you since obviously we disagree which doesn't make either me or you right or wrong, it just means we will need to wait and see who is right if any of us are. I have even given creative Radiant examples of potential power uses that have been ignored recently.

What creative examples of Radiant powers? Using Abrasion on a boulder?

So I went through the last 40 pages to look for examples of metalborn you proposed for direct conflict with Radiant (if I missed any, you are free to list them yourself), I will take just their powers, not your headcannon scenarios of how the situation would go down. For non-compounding Twinborn you listed as winning against 4th oath Radiants:

  1. Thugbearer (A-pewter/F-nicrosil)
    1. If they can store effect of A-pewter, they can shortly become very strong, fast and more durable, and in such case they would stand a chance against 3rd Oath definitely (except those that can escape to CR,  hide with Illusions or fly, there it would depend just how fast they could be and for how long). Against plate it would depend on what the weaponry they have.
    2. If they cannot store effects of A-pewter, they are dead, as they are strictly weaker than Mistborn and 3rd Oath radiant could take Mistborn more often than not in open battle.
  2. A-Chromium/F-Nicrosil
    1. They would lose, as again they are strictly weaker than Mistborn, and any Radiant is stronger, faster and more dexterous. Radiant could easily kill them before this Twinborn could touch them to use A-chromium (as Leeching requires touch).
  3. Thug/Steelrunner (A-pewter/F-steel)
    1. F-steel is OP please nerf. But seriously, even if they are moving "only" at ~100m/s (which should be sustainable without damage to body) they should be able to take down those Radiants they can reach (with proper weapons of course). Again, some Radiants could escape (either CR, flight or Illusions), and potentially attack them from stealth, but that would depend on details of battle.

For Compounders you listed as killing Radiants (either 4th oath, or in CR):

  1. Twin Iron
    1. They can push/pull harder than usual due to better weight, but they cannot affect Shardplate/Shardblade. Since they can only pull they have worse offense and mobility than Mistborn, so I would see this going to 3rd oath and above Radiant, and maybe some 2nd Oath orders as well (if there was not much metal around).
  2. Twin Steel
    1. F-steel, nuf said. With good weapons they win, period.
  3. Twin Brass
    1. They lose? They can only manipulate emotions a bit, and not as strongly as someone with A-duralumin. If Radiant has Stormlight they should not have an issue killing them, even in CR. If they have guns in CR, then yeah they could kill Radiant, but that is the gun doing the work not the Twinborn.
  4. Twin Zinc
    1. As Twin Brass, although they have a better shot at killing the Radiant in CR (or 3rd/2nd Oath out of CR) due to mental speed, if they have guns (but again, that is the gun doing the work).
  5. Twin Pewter
    1. If they tap F-pewter as much as they can without compromising too much mobility and flare A-pewter on top of that, they are about 11x as strong as human, at cost of being less dexterous than usual and a bit slower than usually to A-pewter burn. Against 4th Oath in plate they do not stand much chance, as those are just as strong and fast, and much more durable with better offense to boot. Against 3rd Oath, they might take them, if they use F-pewter to launch surprise attack, but they would need to be close to do that, which is very risky for them.
  6. Twin Aluminum
    1. Yeah, no combat abilities whatsoever, much worse than a Mistborn in combat, so they would get killed.

Often in your combat scenarios what was crucial was a gun, not any magical abilities. That is an argument for gun being a good tool in combat, not an argument for given Twinborn being good in combat.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.

So Shallan can kill Kelsier by shooting ray of light at him, per your interpretation? That is good to know, no need to fear the only Fullborn then, correct ray of light is going to slay him.

Of course that is not actually possible, as again creating light and creating gaseous investiture are two very different things. So no, neither Lightweavers nor Truthwatchers can actually do that, and neither can Scadrians create lasers of anti-investiture (since creating investiture is not something that can be done, and especially not creating investiture of another Shard using a different Shard, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710 ), lets quote the relevant parts

 

Quote

 

Djarskublar

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

Brandon Sanderson

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is, simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

Djarskublar

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

Brandon Sanderson

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 
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4 hours ago, therunner said:

So yeah, I think if you can hit Radiant in one of 14-19 locations that correspond to Aluminum, you will remove their Bond to spren as that is their Power, but you need to hit those bind points first.

I don't really agree. RoW makes it clear it's a Connection issue, and we've seen nothing indicating H-aluminum affects that. I guess it's possible it could affect it, due to the spiritweb merging, but I'm feeling iffy on that for the moment.

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5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't really agree. RoW makes it clear it's a Connection issue, and we've seen nothing indicating H-aluminum affects that. I guess it's possible it could affect it, due to the spiritweb merging, but I'm feeling iffy on that for the moment.

If I understand you correctly, you disagree that H-aluminum would effectively "spike out" the Nahel bond? I think it having to do with Connection should not be an issue, since per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4548) it seems that stealing Connection is something Hemalurgy can do.

Of course that H-aluminum would remove Nahel Bond is speculation, but I think there is evidence to support it, namely

  1. Hemalurgy when applied to Surgebinder is not going to steal a Surge, but the Bond (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13432).
  2. H-Aluminum removes all powers, per Hemalurgy chart.

Combining these two I came to conclusion that H-Aluminum would remove the Bond. I think the first point is not disputable, the power comes from the Bond, so spiking Surgebinder you cannot get any magic other than the Bond. The second point however is based on Hemalurgy Chart, which is an in-world document, and if they did yet encounter surgebinders they would not necessarily know for certain what H-Aluminum would do in that situation.

 

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22 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Feruchemical iron does not increase density.

AoL 19, Wax explicitly says it does not increase density and he cannot become bulletproof:

WoB where Brandon says there's not really a way to explain it scientifically, but it is not density:

WoB that confirms that when Sazed says his density increases, it's a misunderstanding of what is actually occurring:

Brandon didn't have a scientific explanation of why increasing mass without increasing density especially for a strait skimmer.

A strait skimmer like Wax has a limited amount of mass that they can store so that would be the first thing to limit their effective overall density. Another way I rationalize a density increase without much change to penetration resistance is that not everything increases in density at the same rate and some things in the body don't increase at all. To remain standing bone density must increase much more than anything else, and to be able to continue to move normally muscle density must also increase though not nearly as much as bone density. Most of the body is water and it wont increase at all. Other tissues like skin might not increase density or if they do only very minimally.

If there are major differences, as I presume, to density increases in different parts of the body then it would take significant magnitude to start to see an effect on projectiles, but it would occur if the mass increased enough.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

I mostly agree with all of this, I partly disagree on Stormlight being removed (I think it would not, as Stormlight is not Power, but Investiture) and I disagree that any aluminum piercing with Intent anywhere will remove powers. All of Hemalurgy rests on two things 1) Intent, and 2) Bind points, and I simply do not see why should aluminum be special in this regard when there is no evidence for this.

So yeah, I think if you can hit Radiant in one of 14-19 locations that correspond to Aluminum, you will remove their Bond to spren as that is their Power, but you need to hit those bind points first. The only on the fly examples of Hemalurgy were performed by people guided by Ruin, not by a person on their own, they tied those people down.

So even if you started shooting a machine gun and Radiant were bunched up in such a way you could hit hundreds of them at once, I think you would be lucky to spike one. And of course, the spren could then go and bond someone else, so unless you hit someone of 3rd oath, you have the same amount of Radiants as before.

I...said the same thing about lurchers and coinshots?

So I do not know what you meant by this.

LewsTherinTelescope already addressed Wax's increased mass is not actually increasing his density (or resistance to damage) using both books and WoBs, so I will not address it further.

Also three things on your example:

  1. I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10, as I have not idea how to replicate them. If he is storing ~50lbs at all times (he can only store when awake), we would get 50*16(usable hours in day)*365(days in year)*40(years)=~11.6 million lbs *hours, so ten times as much, and I really do not see how to just reduce by a factor of 10 (although I might be missing something obvious).
  2. Compounding multiplies stores by 10x, so after compounding 5 times he would not have 5 times as much, but 10^5 times as much.
  3. You are again neglecting loses from tapping faster, so those hypothetical 5 million lbs*hours would not be usable to increase his weight 25000x for 1 hour, the loss would be something like 10^(-10000), so you would not get even a single pico-second of that weight (frankly there is no time interval short enough to describe it properly).

In the future there will definitely be developments we cannot even begin to predict (i.e. what the hell Voidbinding is, how medallions are made, how to achieve FTL with Metallic arts, what spiritual metals actually do, etc.). But as things stand now (Roshar = post-RoW, Scadrial= post-BoM) Roshar has stronger and more flexible magic, larger population, better replacement numbers, while Scadrial has more advanced earth-equivalent technology.

The thread was positited as this

and then evolved further from that to include total war between Roshar and Scadrial, with the necessary assumption that you somehow place them on the same world and they retain their magic and other useful tools. So if you say "Right now they can't have conflict" you are dismissing both the basic and evolved thesis of this thread.

You dismissed all Frustration wrote by saying you "don't agree with [his] interpretation of how the Cosmere works ", which is ok in some ways. But a large point of his post was that all of Cosmere works on the same underlying principles (with WoBs to support that), and that is something you cannot just choose to dismiss. For example

please tell me how the above is vague.

What creative examples of Radiant powers? Using Abrasion on a boulder?

So I went through the last 40 pages to look for examples of metalborn you proposed for direct conflict with Radiant (if I missed any, you are free to list them yourself), I will take just their powers, not your headcannon scenarios of how the situation would go down. For non-compounding Twinborn you listed as winning against 4th oath Radiants:

  1. Thugbearer (A-pewter/F-nicrosil)
    1. If they can store effect of A-pewter, they can shortly become very strong, fast and more durable, and in such case they would stand a chance against 3rd Oath definitely (except those that can escape to CR,  hide with Illusions or fly, there it would depend just how fast they could be and for how long). Against plate it would depend on what the weaponry they have.
    2. If they cannot store effects of A-pewter, they are dead, as they are strictly weaker than Mistborn and 3rd Oath radiant could take Mistborn more often than not in open battle.
  2. A-Chromium/F-Nicrosil
    1. They would lose, as again they are strictly weaker than Mistborn, and any Radiant is stronger, faster and more dexterous. Radiant could easily kill them before this Twinborn could touch them to use A-chromium (as Leeching requires touch).
  3. Thug/Steelrunner (A-pewter/F-steel)
    1. F-steel is OP please nerf. But seriously, even if they are moving "only" at ~100m/s (which should be sustainable without damage to body) they should be able to take down those Radiants they can reach (with proper weapons of course). Again, some Radiants could escape (either CR, flight or Illusions), and potentially attack them from stealth, but that would depend on details of battle.

For Compounders you listed as killing Radiants (either 4th oath, or in CR):

  1. Twin Iron
    1. They can push/pull harder than usual due to better weight, but they cannot affect Shardplate/Shardblade. Since they can only pull they have worse offense and mobility than Mistborn, so I would see this going to 3rd oath and above Radiant, and maybe some 2nd Oath orders as well (if there was not much metal around).
  2. Twin Steel
    1. F-steel, nuf said. With good weapons they win, period.
  3. Twin Brass
    1. They lose? They can only manipulate emotions a bit, and not as strongly as someone with A-duralumin. If Radiant has Stormlight they should not have an issue killing them, even in CR. If they have guns in CR, then yeah they could kill Radiant, but that is the gun doing the work not the Twinborn.
  4. Twin Zinc
    1. As Twin Brass, although they have a better shot at killing the Radiant in CR (or 3rd/2nd Oath out of CR) due to mental speed, if they have guns (but again, that is the gun doing the work).
  5. Twin Pewter
    1. If they tap F-pewter as much as they can without compromising too much mobility and flare A-pewter on top of that, they are about 11x as strong as human, at cost of being less dexterous than usual and a bit slower than usually to A-pewter burn. Against 4th Oath in plate they do not stand much chance, as those are just as strong and fast, and much more durable with better offense to boot. Against 3rd Oath, they might take them, if they use F-pewter to launch surprise attack, but they would need to be close to do that, which is very risky for them.
  6. Twin Aluminum
    1. Yeah, no combat abilities whatsoever, much worse than a Mistborn in combat, so they would get killed.

Often in your combat scenarios what was crucial was a gun, not any magical abilities. That is an argument for gun being a good tool in combat, not an argument for given Twinborn being good in combat.

So Shallan can kill Kelsier by shooting ray of light at him, per your interpretation? That is good to know, no need to fear the only Fullborn then, correct ray of light is going to slay him.

Of course that is not actually possible, as again creating light and creating gaseous investiture are two very different things. So no, neither Lightweavers nor Truthwatchers can actually do that, and neither can Scadrians create lasers of anti-investiture (since creating investiture is not something that can be done, and especially not creating investiture of another Shard using a different Shard, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31/#e1710 ), lets quote the relevant parts

 

 

Thanks for the list. One thing aluminum twins would be is largely immune to surge attacks and capable of reversing shard damage. Beyond that other things I have imagined for their potential are educated extreme speculation based on the one thing it can store and why I think that makes it able to counter investiture and power. Aluminum is a blackhole to investiture of any kind except Identity and I think there is a reason for that an aluminum twin might be able to tap into. Check out my fan fic but don't expect it to be strictly Cosmere accurate to what is proven.

Most twins would be most effective in a support position to any armed conflict. Since you guys are more often on the side that Roshar is the nearly inevitable victor in a conflict I will leave the creative uses of the surges to you. It seems most of the surge applications that are quoted are brute force applications which from my perspective aluminum can both neutralize and resist.

Of course we can predict developments since we have the ground rules for the system. Not all of them since some of those ground rules are vague. One of those developments is that we cannot predict how or when the conflict will start. Neither side can reach the other in force at this time and Radiants are particularly stuck for now. We do know Scadrians will have space travel which may be what finally bridges the gap en-mass. Also at this time any world except Roshar, Rosharan's lose, but Scadrians have full access to both their tech and magic on any world even Roshar. At their tech level now they would have to have access to and to cross the CR which severely limits Radiant retreats to the CR.

Let me give you the formulas for weight increase.

Stored weight = 25% of total weight for a day which I estimate to be 50 lbs. I didn't break it down into hours.

compounded weight uses the initial 50 lbs for 1 day and compounds it 5 times which is 10^5 * 50. That equals being 5 million lbs for 1 day once compounded that is tappable. He would have 25,000 times his normal mass for an entire day (when would you need to be that heavy for an entire day). Compress the time and you lose some mass, but extend the time and you keep it all. All compounding would have similar magnitudes.

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4 hours ago, therunner said:

I think it having to do with Connection should not be an issue, since per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4548) it seems that stealing Connection is something Hemalurgy can do.

The question isn't whether Hemalurgy overall can do it (H-duralumin is "Steals Identity/Connection" iirc), but over whether aluminum specifically can. I doubt aluminum removes every Hemalurgic trait (this would likely require destroying literally the entire spiritweb), so the question is if a bond counts as a "power", or if aluminum Hemalurgy is just not particularly useful against Radiants. I'm leaning the latter, myself, as we've seen no indication aluminum removes Connection (while they don't have Radiants, they do clearly have a way to check if Connection is removed or not, since they worked out H-duralumin, so it's not unreasonable to think they would have noted such a thing being the case).

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon didn't have a scientific explanation of why increasing mass without increasing density especially for a strait skimmer.

Correct, he handwaved it, because there is no scientific explanation that fits all his criteria. But he explicitly stated that he is not changing density (at least not directly; I've got no clue if bone density would increase to compensate for the larger body or anything).

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6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The question isn't whether Hemalurgy overall can do it (H-duralumin is "Steals Identity/Connection" iirc), but over whether aluminum specifically can. I doubt aluminum removes every Hemalurgic trait (this would likely require destroying literally the entire spiritweb), so the question is if a bond counts as a "power", or if aluminum Hemalurgy is just not particularly useful against Radiants. I'm leaning the latter, myself, as we've seen no indication aluminum removes Connection (while they don't have Radiants, they do clearly have a way to check if Connection is removed or not, since they worked out H-duralumin, so it's not unreasonable to think they would have noted such a thing being the case).

Ah, alright then. I personally lean in the other direction, the rationale being that I read "Remove Powers" as "Remove ability to use Invested Arts". For Allomancers that would be spiking out 'metalborn-ness', for Radiants that would be Nahel Bond, but it is true that there is not evidence to support it. So I think H-Aluminum would not remove Connection generally, only if it facilitates Invested Art.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon didn't have a scientific explanation of why increasing mass without increasing density especially for a strait skimmer.

A strait skimmer like Wax has a limited amount of mass that they can store so that would be the first thing to limit their effective overall density. Another way I rationalize a density increase without much change to penetration resistance is that not everything increases in density at the same rate and some things in the body don't increase at all. To remain standing bone density must increase much more than anything else, and to be able to continue to move normally muscle density must also increase though not nearly as much as bone density. Most of the body is water and it wont increase at all. Other tissues like skin might not increase density or if they do only very minimally.

If there are major differences, as I presume, to density increases in different parts of the body then it would take significant magnitude to start to see an effect on projectiles, but it would occur if the mass increased enough.

Yes, he did not have scientific explanation, but he was quite clear (both in-universe and out-of-universe) that F-Iron has no effect on density, as LewsTherinTelescope already showed. No amount of arguing is going to change that fact, F-iron does not make people more resistant to damage due to increased density (as stated both in books, annotations to books and WoBs), because their density does not increase. Generally Feruchemy only makes you resistant to what you tapped (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1097) not to external effects (so tapped weight does not break bones, but anyone with a hammer could still easily shatter your collarbone).

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thanks for the list. One thing aluminum twins would be is largely immune to surge attacks and capable of reversing shard damage. Beyond that other things I have imagined for their potential are educated extreme speculation based on the one thing it can store and why I think that makes it able to counter investiture and power. Aluminum is a blackhole to investiture of any kind except Identity and I think there is a reason for that an aluminum twin might be able to tap into. Check out my fan fic but don't expect it to be strictly Cosmere accurate to what is proven.

Aluminum Twin would be partially immune (they would have to be burning metal at the time, or tapping Identity, or both depending on how it plays out) to very few Surges, specifically only those that mess with Spiritweb or Identity. The only Surge that obviously does that is Transformation (but Soulcasting people is generally not very effective way of killing them, Jasnah does it once as an object lesson) and Spiritual Adhesion (power only Bondsmith has), all the other Surges affect strictly physical properties, so Aluminum Twin has no way to touch them, as the Stormlight does not enter their Spiritweb (so A-Aluminum is useless) and they have nothing to do with Identity (so F-Aluminum is useless).

Aluminum twin would be able to reverse shard damage, and who knows how much stores would that use up. Of course, Radiant can then either kill them with either direct or indirect application of Surge (Lash stone at them, Lash their clothing, Division on clothing or ground, Soulcasting air, Grow a tree through them, etc.), smashing them with fist (if they have plate), stab them with something other than a Shard (like a Stick) or simply change Shardblade into Shardhammer and hit their head. Since Radiants are already fighting enemies that can heal Shard damage (Fused) they should anticipate the possibility of healing Shard wounds.

7 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Most twins would be most effective in a support position to any armed conflict. Since you guys are more often on the side that Roshar is the nearly inevitable victor in a conflict I will leave the creative uses of the surges to you. It seems most of the surge applications that are quoted are brute force applications which from my perspective aluminum can both neutralize and resist.

Two posts back you were saying "...some potential metalborn could go toe-to-toe with Radiant of any Oath.", but now most are effective in support position? So which are the ones that could go toe to toe with Radiant of any Oath, since you did not back up your claim even after I scoured the last 40 pages? Fullborn excepted, I can see some with F-steel (paired with more offensive ability), and those with A-atium (if it is still available, and they would need a lot, or little less if they had F-pewter) as beating Radiants of higher Oaths.

Also, even if NoScad has population 30 million (it does not) than there are only 4-6 Twinborn of any specific type, and from those 2-4 would be combat capable (either due to age, physical state or mental state). They would not be that useful in support positions, not much more than Mistings would be (or Ferring when NoScad find a way to refill medallions). Most Twinborn have little to no synergy between their powers, and so are no more effective than Misting or Ferring of their type, the only advantage is that they can fill both roles (but with low numbers that is not particularly interesting).

Why are you leaving creative applications of Surges to others? Again, I think people here are interested in discussion that is as objective as possible and are not holding opposing facts back if they have them. Some (probably most) are unconsciously biased either in one way or the other, but I do not think they are intentionally withholding facts that would oppose their 'favorite'. If you have some unseen applications of Surges, please do share.

And how would aluminum neutralize/resist Surges? Unless you encase the entire person (i.e. head to toe and no gaps), Reverse Lashing could affect them, and even if they are fully encased in Aluminum, Division could still set the ground on fire, Soulcasting could still create tomb/oil on fire, Lightweaver could still blind them/fool them, Cohesion could still shape stone and trap their feet. Tension and Abrasion would be difficult, but Radiant could still apply it to themselves and have either better protection or better mobility.

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course we can predict developments since we have the ground rules for the system. Not all of them since some of those ground rules are vague. One of those developments is that we cannot predict how or when the conflict will start. Neither side can reach the other in force at this time and Radiants are particularly stuck for now. We do know Scadrians will have space travel which may be what finally bridges the gap en-mass. Also at this time any world except Roshar, Rosharan's lose, but Scadrians have full access to both their tech and magic on any world even Roshar. At their tech level now they would have to have access to and to cross the CR which severely limits Radiant retreats to the CR.

If you wish to bring future tech into discussion, than we can say Radiants have guns too (Shardguns we have seen, and Fabrial guns should not be too far behind), and suddenly one major advantage of Scadrial is gone (of course by that time Scadrial will have some other tech, but so far we have not seen any). And Radiants can easily leave their planet and keep using Surges as well, so even the second advantage of Scadrial is diminished in the future. We can discuss this, but it would be good if you could say what are the boundaries beforehand (i.e. not pull future tech to someones discussion on Era 2 Scadrial vs post-RoW Roshar).

At current tech level, the only way Scadrial can access CR is a Perpendicularity, and they do not know where their is (so they cannot leave). If they found it, and even if it is twice the size of Preservation's, it is still barely 10 feet across, they could not fit much more than a single small car at once, severely restricting them. On Roshar one perpendicularity is underwater and the other who knows where (either at The Origin, or somewhere inside the Highstorm), so neither location is good starting point for Invasion. Due to these limitations, Radiants can retreat into CR as they wish, simply because they can do it wherever they want, and Scadrial is limited to perpendicularities.

On the other hand all Rosharans can leave at mass at this very moment, only they cannot take spren, Radiants and Stormlight with them (which of course is a big problem for them). Of course the fact that they cannot leave is Connection issue primarily, and they have three Cognitive Entities that made such trip (Vasher, Nightblood, one Seon) on hand, plus they have two Unchained Bondsmiths (for whom manipulating Connection is as easy as reaching out). If they work at it a bit, they should be able to figure it out pretty fast (especially now that Navani can directly experiment).

8 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Let me give you the formulas for weight increase.

Stored weight = 25% of total weight for a day which I estimate to be 50 lbs. I didn't break it down into hours.

compounded weight uses the initial 50 lbs for 1 day and compounds it 5 times which is 10^5 * 50. That equals being 5 million lbs for 1 day once compounded that is tappable. He would have 25,000 times his normal mass for an entire day (when would you need to be that heavy for an entire day). Compress the time and you lose some mass, but extend the time and you keep it all. All compounding would have similar magnitudes.

Ah, except for the problem than any tapping of large amount of attribute is subject to losses no matter the storage speed, so the loss would still be there (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). So no, Compounder cannot overcome this loss on tapping large amount of attribute, and we had this discussion already.

 

It would be nice if you supported your positions instead of just stating them. Just on this page you said

  1. That some metalborn can go toe-to-toe with Radiant of any Oath (but refused to say which, even after I went through last 40 pages to list which ones you were talking about before).
  2. That most Twinborn would be best in support positions (but not why they would be useful there, or why would they be better than Mistings/Ferrings).
  3. That Surges have some creative application no one talked about (but you are refusing to say which applications those would be)
  4. That Aluminum could neutralize or resist most applications of Surges others are talking about (but you do not say how it would resist it, which is important for surges that do not need to be directly applied to enemy like Divison, Soulcasting, Cohesion, Reverse Lashings etc.)

It is difficult to discuss these points when you are refusing to elaborate on them, or clarify how you see they would be used. At that point all anyone can do is either ignore them, or try and figure out how it could work and work from there.

 

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On 5/5/2021 at 4:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

I just don't agree with your interpretation of how the Cosmere works and I don't see any more point to trying to explain myself to you.

My interpretation? You mean the things that Brandon has said?

On 5/5/2021 at 4:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

You make a good point that Rosharans can make materials but there are major downsides to soulcasting material and it is a very gem and stormlight intensive process. If you run low on the appropriate gem soulcasting becomes very limited, and those who do it eventually kill themselves doing it.

Radiants do not have gem limitations

On 5/5/2021 at 4:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

Your following statements seem to contradict each other:

"These are the only effects Aluminum has on its own. It does not:

Repel spren in gemhearts (only fabrials and only conjoiners)

Interfere with investiture making spren function (again, the only effect on spren is in conjoiner fabrials)

Turn off investiture (no such effect)

Neutralize investiture (no such effect, it is inert to investiture instead)

In metallic arts it does the following

Allomancy, remove all internal investiture (most likely kinetic) of Allomancer.

Feruchemy, store Identity.

Hemalurgy, remove powers (so no, not the same thing as in Allomancy)."

it is because it says remove powers instead of neutralize investiture in Hemalurgy that I fear it would be more permanent and if removing investirure and removing powers is not turning off or neutralizing investiture what is it? I still assume that the power aluminum removes from Radaiants is stormlight. Since Hemalurgic Aluminum only does one thing it is reasonable to assume any of the 100's of bind points will do. Note Hemalurgic aluminum gives not attributes at all it only takes.

Since spren move away from aluminum in fabrials it is not unreasonable to consider they might do so in almost any other situation as well, but I will agree it cannot be assumed as to whether they will or wont.

As for aniti-investiure https://coppermind.net/wiki/Lights#Anti-Lights at this point officially it says:

Other anti-Investiture[edit]

It is unknown whether hybrid Lights and Shards outside of the Rosharan system have anti-Investitures of their own. Khriss states in the Ars Arcanum that, though long theorized, the anti-Lights are her first evidence of an anti-Investiture.

So since Scadrian investiture is not accomplished through or powered by light it is unlikely there is an anti-investiture or at least not one easily producible by another system. You wouldn't want to soulcast anti-matter because the instant consequences would be very destructive even to the caster. The very air would react to it in exponential explosions while trying to create it. And it would likely release anti-light at the same time in all directions. Perma kill everyone in the area including the soulcaster. Besides as it says any other anti-investiture is pure speculation at this point. So for now Anti- void or stormlight is the only anti-investiture and would serve like kryptonite to Rosharans.

So we have to assume that alumnum works in different conditions but anti-investiture doesn't?

That seems really biased.

And no anti-investiture is not kryptonite Brand hate Kryptonite type weaknesses

Spoiler

Daily Dragon

Your work is often praised for unique magic systems with interesting limitations, like the application of the laws of physics to the abilities of a Coinshot in the Mistborn series. What kinds of limitations do you think have the most potential?

Brandon Sanderson

There are lots of ways to go with this answer. It depends on how creative you are with your storytelling. I like to found my magics with certain rules so that I can force myself and my characters to be more creative in their application. I think that a good magic system is going to have some of this. Granted that my way is not the only way; there are a lot of great stories that don't do magic the way I do it. But if you're trying to tell a story where the way the magic works is a very big part of the story, then limitations are vital. I would say the best limitations are ones where creativity is forced on the part of the characters.

I don't like limitations such as kryptonite—this one thing negates the magic, which focuses the story around having it or not having it. I like limitations that are intrinsic to the magic and have a logical sense. When I can, I like the limitations to be bounded by the laws of physics—what requirements will physics put upon this magic that will make the characters have to use it in a more natural way.

The other big thing is that I split out costs and limitations in my head. A limitation is just what the magic can or cannot do, just like we have limits in our own world to what a physical body can achieve. Costs are what you pay for the magic, and these can add an economic component to a book and a magic system; they can add a lot of ties into the setting, and a great magic, I think, has a lot of ties into the setting.

Daily Dragon interview (Aug. 31, 2012)

 

On 5/6/2021 at 1:37 PM, BenduLuke said:

That's right lightweavers and Truthwatchers have the potential to permanently kill Fused with their surges since they do have the potential to create anti-voidlight through the illumination surge, they just didn't know it was possible until after RoW. One of the things I proposed a few pages ago.

Stormlight has mass, it isn't light.

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36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Radiants do not have gem limitations

I was under the impression that Radiants are still gem limited for soulcasting at least to some extent, see this WoB ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/149/#e2784). Although this another WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128/#e3243) suggests that maybe it is not as hard a rule as with soulcasters. Maybe there is something I am not aware of, but reading these I would expect even Radiant Soulcasting to be at least less effective when using different gems.

But then again, seeing what Jasnah is doing in Oathbringer and RoW, it does not seem she pauses to check if she has correct gems, so if such limit exists it is not particularly strong for Radiants.

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20 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The question isn't whether Hemalurgy overall can do it (H-duralumin is "Steals Identity/Connection" iirc), but over whether aluminum specifically can. I doubt aluminum removes every Hemalurgic trait (this would likely require destroying literally the entire spiritweb), so the question is if a bond counts as a "power", or if aluminum Hemalurgy is just not particularly useful against Radiants. I'm leaning the latter, myself, as we've seen no indication aluminum removes Connection (while they don't have Radiants, they do clearly have a way to check if Connection is removed or not, since they worked out H-duralumin, so it's not unreasonable to think they would have noted such a thing being the case).

Correct, he handwaved it, because there is no scientific explanation that fits all his criteria. But he explicitly stated that he is not changing density (at least not directly; I've got no clue if bone density would increase to compensate for the larger body or anything).

Aluminum is unique. Hemalugically it is the only metal that doesn't steal attributes or power. You cannot use it to transfer abilities from one person to another. I looked at the hemalugic bind point illustration for steel inquisitors and saw that the bind points available for aluminum were in a pair of locations on both sides of the pelvis, both fore arms, and both shin. Now if they were put there these aluminum hemalugic spikes would render the inquisitor powerless regardless what other spikes they have. (aluminum spike handcuffs and shackles anyone). Hemalurgic aluminum strait up removes powers. On Roshar that could be interpreted as surges, bonds, or invested light. healing and extra physical ability are also powers. In additions it doesn't just remove some power but all powers and I reason that the most effective way to do that to a Radian would be to act as a stormlight sink to remove stormlight. Brandon also said that aluminum in the body interferes and or interacts with power in the body. (much of this comes from the foot notes on aluminum).

One other thing about aluminum is that Brandon said allomantic aluminum would be more effective at removing withering than feruchemical gold. From what I have seen that appears to be one of the most devastating invested ailments in the Cosmere. It has also been implied that a Savant might be able to remove not just invested injuries, but other forms of impurity as well. I think you would practically need to be an aluminum compounder to become a savant. An aluminum twin probably wouldn't need silver on Nalthis.

53 minutes ago, therunner said:

I was under the impression that Radiants are still gem limited for soulcasting at least to some extent, see this WoB ( https://wob.coppermind.net/events/149/#e2784). Although this another WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/128/#e3243) suggests that maybe it is not as hard a rule as with soulcasters. Maybe there is something I am not aware of, but reading these I would expect even Radiant Soulcasting to be at least less effective when using different gems.

But then again, seeing what Jasnah is doing in Oathbringer and RoW, it does not seem she pauses to check if she has correct gems, so if such limit exists it is not particularly strong for Radiants.

Jasnah was particularly effective during the battle because the 3 realms were practically merged in the region due to the Dalinar perpendicularity. "And how would aluminum neutralize/resist Surges? Unless you encase the entire person (i.e. head to toe and no gaps), Reverse Lashing could affect them, and even if they are fully encased in Aluminum, Division could still set the ground on fire, Soulcasting could still create tomb/oil on fire, Lightweaver could still blind them/fool them, Cohesion could still shape stone and trap their feet. Tension and Abrasion would be difficult, but Radiant could still apply it to themselves and have either better protection or better mobility." I will address this. Indirect attacks are a great option when the target can counter a direct strike. An aluminum nat would be all but impossible to directly use a surge on against their will. Trapping his feet with cohesion requires time and contact near those feet. Abrasion, adhesion, soulcasting, division or any other surge used directly as quick as he can burn aluminum. If he moved quickly enough he might disrupt any surge used near him by passing through it just like he can disrupt bendalloy bubbles and an area around himself (yeah it creates a small bubble itself only evident in contrast to other nearby investiture. Which might mean the ground below his is also not going to be surgeable. You seem so knowledgeable that i am surprised I even need to explain this to you.

You want to know who could likely go toe to toe with a Radiant. Obviously steel and iron compounders. After just 5 compounding sessions either has 1,000,000 times more attribute than they started with (that is the same with all compounders). that level of speed or mass would provide incredible allomanic and physical abilities. Brandon may say that F-iron doesn't increase density, but in the books he shows that their is an effect on density. What it doesn't obviously provide is density against penetration,but broken bones it has been shown to strongly resist that as well as giving proportionally greater strength. 1 million time stronger structure and muscle strength may even give the ability to affect shards with allomancy.

Another toe to toe possibility is a Chromium compounder. 1 million times more luck/fortune would likely always being in the right place with the right resources to kill a Radiant.

A thug/soulbearer would likely have the stored invested physical abilities to outclass any radiant and given the right equipment would likely win most engagements toe to toe.

With enough time to prepare a sparker/slider would likely be able to gun down 3rd oath and below from the safety of a bubble and perhaps win by booby trap any oath level.

A cadmium misting armed with nicrosil grenades could turn anyone into a sitting duck so might also be able to kill most radiants.

I can only imagine the havoc a Nicrosil twin with nicrosil grenades would cause especially if they had some kind of grenade launcher. (grenade activates near a windrunner and suddenly his gravity lashing launches him into space, a wall, the ground or just really fast then his stormlight is gone. Hopefully their shardplate survives any impact because their healing is also gone.)

I'll leave it up to you to come up with creative surge use since you are the ones mostly promoting Rosharan magic winning.

From the Feruchemy coppermind we get this mechanic for Feruchemy:

 when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in, for example, if they store 50% of their strength for one hour they can tap that and be at 150% of their strength for one hour. However, if the Feruchemist taps at a greater rate, then some of the attribute is lost,

So long as you don't tap the stored attribute faster than it was stored, 1 hour, or 1 day for example you always get back what you store. The WoB you quoted doesn't account for this. Yes I know it says tapping large amounts but if you go the origional source the author of the question admits to paraphrasing his questions and responses so the coppermind has the more complete response or description of the mechanics. This is one example of where a WoB is vague or potentially inaccurate or of limited accuracy. I have notices that Brandon has a tendency to limit his responses to only the most narrow circumstances so as to retain some Cosmere surprises.

One thing you would never guess is that leeching can be done without touching someone, but Nicrosil grenades leech at a distance without touching you so could leeching at a distance be done by a person with enough skill like soulcasting can? After all nicrosil grenades show that distance leeching is possible.

I see your disputes and many times my first mental response it you haven't really thought it through. Even the WoB's you quote can be interpreted in multiple ways that don't nessisarily support the position you propose, but I look them up anyway and as often as not disregard them because I don't think they say what you think they say. I have quoted many articles in the course of this discussion (I am very selective of what I quote because so many can be interpreted in multiple ways or contradict each other), but when others disregard them I choose not to continue to quote them. You on the other hand keep quoting the same WoB's presuming that I will change my mind on what they say or how accurate they are like the one about tapping massive attributes. Always consider the context, the source, and any other canonical information on the subject before you assume it supports your position.

Aluminum blocks shardblades and for now that is Brandon's position (I found that in the footnotes of Aluminum) His team is still debating the topic. That could mean that even a thin sheet of aluminum foil will stop a shardblade since we have never seen a shardblade cut anything made of aluminum. The coppermind gives the proviso that if it is thick enough without saying how thick. Nightblood's scabard can stop a shardblade slash from Nightblood itself. Scabards are not usually very thick and one made of aluminum would likely bend or even be cut through if struck by a regular sword.

This discussion has not been objective. It is entirely subjective on both sides and to assume it is not is unrealistic. The best anyone can hope for is that someone else will accept their subjective opinion. You all seem to think I should accept your subjective opinions as objective while rejecting my own subjective opinion, and that wont happen. I may grant that I can see your subjective position and where it comes from and maybe even think it is rational or even likely, but I get very frustrated that many times maybe even most you all wont do the same. 

@Frustration Light also has mass. It is minuscule but it does have some. So that is not a difference between light and stomlight. Incidentally sunlight gives investiture to sand on Taldain. So the right frequency and pulse of light will destroy stormlight and kill Radiants along with their spren.

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25 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is unique. Hemalugically it is the only metal that doesn't steal attributes or power. You cannot use it to transfer abilities from one person to another. I looked at the hemalugic bind point illustration for steel inquisitors and saw that the bind points available for aluminum were in a pair of locations on both sides of the pelvis, both fore arms, and both shin. Now if they were put there these aluminum hemalugic spikes would render the inquisitor powerless regardless what other spikes they have. (aluminum spike handcuffs and shackles anyone). Hemalurgic aluminum strait up removes powers. On Roshar that could be interpreted as surges, bonds, or invested light. healing and extra physical ability are also powers. In additions it doesn't just remove some power but all powers and I reason that the most effective way to do that to a Radian would be to act as a stormlight sink to remove stormlight. Brandon also said that aluminum in the body interferes and or interacts with power in the body. (much of this comes from the foot notes on aluminum).

There are a handfull of known inaccuracies about that chart, and those where not aluminum bindpoints they where the quadrents but that's besides the point, those are the bind points on the recipient not the doner.

26 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You want to know who could likely go toe to toe with a Radiant. Obviously steel and iron compounders. After just 5 compounding sessions either has 1,000,000 times more attribute than they started with (that is the same with all compounders). that level of speed or mass would provide incredible allomanic and physical abilities. Brandon may say that F-iron doesn't increase density, but in the books he shows that their is an effect on density. What it doesn't obviously provide is density against penetration,but broken bones it has been shown to strongly resist that as well as giving proportionally greater strength. 1 million time stronger structure and muscle strength may even give the ability to affect shards with allomancy.

f-iron can be easily explained, WITHOUT breaking estamblished canon by changing the spiritual value of someone's weight.

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum blocks shardblades and for now that is Brandon's position (I found that in the footnotes of Aluminum) His team is still debating the topic. That could mean that even a thin sheet of aluminum foil will stop a shardblade since we have never seen a shardblade cut anything made of aluminum. The coppermind gives the proviso that if it is thick enough without saying how thick. Nightblood's scabard can stop a shardblade slash from Nightblood itself. Scabards are not usually very thick and one made of aluminum would likely bend or even be cut through if struck by a regular sword.

As of RoW it only resists shardblades.

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

 Light also has mass. It is minuscule but it does have some. So that is not a difference between light and stomlight. Incidentally sunlight gives investiture to sand on Taldain. So the right frequency and pulse of light will destroy stormlight and kill Radiants along with their spren.

Photons do not have mass.

And Taldain's dayside sun is invested, so it isn't normal sunlight.

so no it won't

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One other thing about aluminum is that Brandon said allomantic aluminum would be more effective at removing withering than feruchemical gold. From what I have seen that appears to be one of the most devastating invested ailments in the Cosmere. It has also been implied that a Savant might be able to remove not just invested injuries, but other forms of impurity as well. I think you would practically need to be an aluminum compounder to become a savant. An aluminum twin probably wouldn't need silver on Nalthis.

First of all, Shades are from Threnody, not Nalthis. Second, since it is the only Invested ailment we have seen, of course it is most devastating. Third, he said that both would work well, only that A-Aluminum is probably safer.

And while that Savant power sounds cool, remember that Savantism also carries severe drawbacks, so that is something to remember.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Jasnah was particularly effective during the battle because the 3 realms were practically merged in the region due to the Dalinar perpendicularity.

In RoW she had no such advantage, and yet she was still easily soulcasting.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

 I will address this. Indirect attacks are a great option when the target can counter a direct strike. An aluminum nat would be all but impossible to directly use a surge on against their will. Trapping his feet with cohesion requires time and contact near those feet. Abrasion, adhesion, soulcasting, division or any other surge used directly as quick as he can burn aluminum. If he moved quickly enough he might disrupt any surge used near him by passing through it just like he can disrupt bendalloy bubbles and an area around himself (yeah it creates a small bubble itself only evident in contrast to other nearby investiture. Which might mean the ground below his is also not going to be surgeable. You seem so knowledgeable that i am surprised I even need to explain this to you.

Since Venli affected entire hallway, you do not need to be particularly near to use Cohesion to trap feet. And you did not address Reverse lashing, Lashing on clothes, Soulcasting of air/ground, or division of ground/clothing.

Why would aluminum gnat disrupt a Surge? It is not like he is made of aluminum, and no aluminum gnats do not create 'bubbles' around themselves, what evidence you have for that? Even your usual source (Coppermind) says nothing of the sort.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You want to know who could likely go toe to toe with a Radiant. Obviously steel and iron compounders. After just 5 compounding sessions either has 1,000,000 times more attribute than they started with (that is the same with all compounders). that level of speed or mass would provide incredible allomanic and physical abilities. Brandon may say that F-iron doesn't increase density, but in the books he shows that their is an effect on density. What it doesn't obviously provide is density against penetration,but broken bones it has been shown to strongly resist that as well as giving proportionally greater strength. 1 million time stronger structure and muscle strength may even give the ability to affect shards with allomancy.

Another toe to toe possibility is a Chromium compounder. 1 million times more luck/fortune would likely always being in the right place with the right resources to kill a Radiant.

A thug/soulbearer would likely have the stored invested physical abilities to outclass any radiant and given the right equipment would likely win most engagements toe to toe.

With enough time to prepare a sparker/slider would likely be able to gun down 3rd oath and below from the safety of a bubble and perhaps win by booby trap any oath level.

A cadmium misting armed with nicrosil grenades could turn anyone into a sitting duck so might also be able to kill most radiants.

I can only imagine the havoc a Nicrosil twin with nicrosil grenades would cause especially if they had some kind of grenade launcher. (grenade activates near a windrunner and suddenly his gravity lashing launches him into space, a wall, the ground or just really fast then his stormlight is gone. Hopefully their shardplate survives any impact because their healing is also gone.)

Steel-Compounder  I agree with. However, Iron-Compounder does not become Allomantically stronger (they just have better 'ballast'), nor are they much stronger (they just have more weight behind the hit, and we see Sazed having difficulty moving when tapping a lot of Weight) and they are slower, less dexterous, less mobile and less damage resistant than Radiant, so Radiant could easily dodge them and close the distance to kill them.

Chromium compounder I cannot really say if I agree, all we get on F-Chromium are RAFOs, and Fortune in Cosmere is not straight up luck. I do lean in the direction that they might pull it off, if they had proper weapons.

Thug/Soulberearer I already addressed, and I think that even with storing A-pewter they would not have such an easy time with Radiants in Plate and above, though if they used their bursts of strenght and speed well they could pull it off.

Sparker/Slider, you cannot shoot out of time bubbles, they effectively randomize trajectory. F-zinc gives you a bit of mental speed (it is not compounded, so you cannot do what Wax did in BoM), but it does not give you information you do not have, so you cannot predict how it would get deflected. How would they booby trap a higher Oath level, and how are their powers helping? A well designed trap could kill almost anyone (even Fullborn), so I am not seeing how this is argument for this particular Twinborn.

Cadmium misting is trapped in the bubble with the Radiant, so they die almost immediately (because they are a normal person otherwise). And the grenade affect the Misting as well, so that would be weird (sped up bubbles that slows down time?). And what about Elsecallers and Willshapers that can drop in from CR?

Nicrosil twin, so Nicrosil would super-charge a Surge, but would it super-charge pre-existing Surge as well? And how would you make sure grenades explodes near Radiant? And any Stormlight in gems would still remain on their person even after this hit, so they could easily heal up. And how would this be useful against, well any order without Gravitation? And how is F-nicrosil helping them?

It is interesting that out of 3 non-compounders you mention, two need modern weaponry to deal with Radiant. That to me suggests that their powers are simply lacking in comparison (and guns are called the great equalizer for a reason), so any advantage due to guns is only temporary. Of course, using tools we should equip Radiants with painrial nets and suppresor fabrials at the very least, maybe even half-shard shields.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I'll leave it up to you to come up with creative surge use since you are the ones mostly promoting Rosharan magic winning.

I will then assume you do not have any new application of Surges hidden somewhere.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

From the Feruchemy coppermind we get this mechanic for Feruchemy:

 when a Feruchemist is tapping an attribute at the same rate it was stored, they are able to get out exactly what they put in, for example, if they store 50% of their strength for one hour they can tap that and be at 150% of their strength for one hour. However, if the Feruchemist taps at a greater rate, then some of the attribute is lost,

So long as you don't tap the stored attribute faster than it was stored, 1 hour, or 1 day for example you always get back what you store. The WoB you quoted doesn't account for this. Yes I know it says tapping large amounts but if you go the origional source the author of the question admits to paraphrasing his questions and responses so the coppermind has the more complete response or description of the mechanics. This is one example of where a WoB is vague or potentially inaccurate or of limited accuracy. I have notices that Brandon has a tendency to limit his responses to only the most narrow circumstances so as to retain some Cosmere surprises.

Well you might ignore such WoBs, but you will find most do not. So I again disagree with your claim, and here is the evidence (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). And frankly, I do not see how you could paraphrase such a clear question into something with different meaning (especially when the person writing the report is the person that asked the question).

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One thing you would never guess is that leeching can be done without touching someone, but Nicrosil grenades leech at a distance without touching you so could leeching at a distance be done by a person with enough skill like soulcasting can? After all nicrosil grenades show that distance leeching is possible.

Using ettmetal tech as an example of what can a person do with their powers is flawed assumption, as there is godmetal involved. Every single WoB implies that contact is necessary for Leechers. Soulcasting is based around CR and as we see on Roshar Cognitive Aspect of an item is not necessarily in the same place as in PR, so that easily explains why soulcasting works from distance.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I see your disputes and many times my first mental response it you haven't really thought it through. Even the WoB's you quote can be interpreted in multiple ways that don't nessisarily support the position you propose, but I look them up anyway and as often as not disregard them because I don't think they say what you think they say. I have quoted many articles in the course of this discussion (I am very selective of what I quote because so many can be interpreted in multiple ways or contradict each other), but when others disregard them I choose not to continue to quote them. You on the other hand keep quoting the same WoB's presuming that I will change my mind on what they say or how accurate they are like the one about tapping massive attributes. Always consider the context, the source, and any other canonical information on the subject before you assume it supports your position.

Which WoBs do not support my position? Please give examples when you make statements, it is otherwise a bit difficult to argue such points.

The WoB with tapping attribute is pretty clear (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803), the only reason you disregard it is because it is paraphrased. There is no other information on this topic (loss when tapping and rate of storage), so there is no other canonical information to consider, source is a person quoting themselves (and 'No' is not difficult to remember) and what context is there for this WoB? Other than you not wanting to give up your idea that Compounders can ignore a fundamental limitation of Feruchemy?

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

This discussion has not been objective. It is entirely subjective on both sides and to assume it is not is unrealistic. The best anyone can hope for is that someone else will accept their subjective opinion. You all seem to think I should accept your subjective opinions as objective while rejecting my own subjective opinion, and that wont happen. I may grant that I can see your subjective position and where it comes from and maybe even think it is rational or even likely, but I get very frustrated that many times maybe even most you all wont do the same.

I was under the impression that people in the thread are striving for at least some measure of objectivity in their statements, and are genuinely interested in how the conflict would go down, i.e. even though they might think evidence favours one side they are not playing favourites.

If I think you make a good point and the evidence supports it, I have no problem acknowledging that (at least I try to). But when you make statements that have no evidence, outright conflict with books and WoBs or you make up elaborate scenarios of how someone would win, I do not feel the need to treat such statements as true, or relevant.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@Frustration Light also has mass. It is minuscule but it does have some. So that is not a difference between light and stomlight. Incidentally sunlight gives investiture to sand on Taldain. So the right frequency and pulse of light will destroy stormlight and kill Radiants along with their spren.

Light has no mass, that is one of its defining qualities (otherwise it would not move at speed of light). So that is a difference between light and Stormlight. And Taldain's sun is invested, that is why the light (photons) are invested there. So again no neither right frequency nor the right pulse of light will kill Radiants.

Edited by therunner
spelling, rephrased two points to clarify intended meaning
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16 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I think you would practically need to be an aluminum compounder to become a savant.

How would being a Compounder help with Allomantic savantism?

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On 5/9/2021 at 0:39 AM, therunner said:

First of all, Shades are from Threnody, not Nalthis. Second, since it is the only Invested ailment we have seen, of course it is most devastating. Third, he said that both would work well, only that A-Aluminum is probably safer.

And while that Savant power sounds cool, remember that Savantism also carries severe drawbacks, so that is something to remember.

In RoW she had no such advantage, and yet she was still easily soulcasting.

Since Venli affected entire hallway, you do not need to be particularly near to use Cohesion to trap feet. And you did not address Reverse lashing, Lashing on clothes, Soulcasting of air/ground, or division of ground/clothing.

Why would aluminum gnat disrupt a Surge? It is not like he is made of aluminum, and no aluminum gnats do not create 'bubbles' around themselves, what evidence you have for that? Even your usual source (Coppermind) says nothing of the sort.

Steel-Compounder  I agree with. However, Iron-Compounder does not become Allomantically stronger (they just have better 'ballast'), nor are they much stronger (they just have more weight behind the hit, and we see Sazed having difficulty moving when tapping a lot of Weight) and they are slower, less dexterous, less mobile and less damage resistant than Radiant, so Radiant could easily dodge them and close the distance to kill them.

Chromium compounder I cannot really say if I agree, all we get on F-Chromium are RAFOs, and Fortune in Cosmere is not straight up luck. I do lean in the direction that they might pull it off, if they had proper weapons.

Thug/Soulberearer I already addressed, and I think that even with storing A-pewter they would not have such an easy time with Radiants in Plate and above, though if they used their bursts of strenght and speed well they could pull it off.

Sparker/Slider, you cannot shoot out of time bubbles, they effectively randomize trajectory. F-zinc gives you a bit of mental speed (it is not compounded, so you cannot do what Wax did in BoM), but it does not give you information you do not have, so you cannot predict how it would get deflected. How would they booby trap a higher Oath level, and how are their powers helping? A well designed trap could kill almost anyone (even Fullborn), so I am not seeing how this is argument for this particular Twinborn.

Cadmium misting is trapped in the bubble with the Radiant, so they die almost immediately (because they are a normal person otherwise). And the grenade affect the Misting as well, so that would be weird (sped up bubbles that slows down time?). And what about Elsecallers and Willshapers that can drop in from CR?

Nicrosil twin, so Nicrosil would super-charge a Surge, but would it super-charge pre-existing Surge as well? And how would you make sure grenades explodes near Radiant? And any Stormlight in gems would still remain on their person even after this hit, so they could easily heal up. And how would this be useful against, well any order without Gravitation? And how is F-nicrosil helping them?

It is interesting that out of 3 non-compounders you mention, two need modern weaponry to deal with Radiant. That to me suggests that their powers are simply lacking in comparison (and guns are called the great equalizer for a reason), so any advantage due to guns is only temporary. Of course, using tools we should equip Radiants with painrial nets and suppresor fabrials at the very least, maybe even half-shard shields.

I will then assume you do not have any new application of Surges hidden somewhere.

Well you might ignore such WoBs, but you will find most do not. So I again disagree with your claim, and here is the evidence (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803). And frankly, I do not see how you could paraphrase such a clear question into something with different meaning (especially when the person writing the report is the person that asked the question).

Using ettmetal tech as an example of what can a person do with their powers is flawed assumption, as there is godmetal involved. Every single WoB implies that contact is necessary for Leechers. Soulcasting is based around CR and as we see on Roshar Cognitive Aspect of an item is not necessarily in the same place as in PR, so that easily explains why soulcasting works from distance.

Which WoBs do not support my position? Please give examples when you make statements, it is otherwise a bit difficult to argue such points.

The WoB with tapping attribute is pretty clear (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803), the only reason you disregard it is because it is paraphrased. There is no other information on this topic (loss when tapping and rate of storage), so there is no other canonical information to consider, source is a person quoting themselves (and 'No' is not difficult to remember) and what context is there for this WoB? Other than you not wanting to give up your idea that Compounders can ignore a fundamental limitation of Feruchemy?

I was under the impression that people in the thread are striving for at least some measure of objectivity in their statements, and are genuinely interested in how the conflict would go down, i.e. even though they might think evidence favours one side they are not playing favourites.

If I think you make a good point and the evidence supports it, I have no problem acknowledging that (at least I try to). But when you make statements that have no evidence, outright conflict with books and WoBs or you make up elaborate scenarios of how someone would win, I do not feel the need to treat such statements as true, or relevant.

Light has no mass, that is one of its defining qualities (otherwise it would not move at speed of light). So that is a difference between light and Stormlight. And Taldain's sun is invested, that is why the light (photons) are invested there. So again no neither right frequency nor the right pulse of light will kill Radiants.

Threnody thanks for the correction glad you understood.

What do you think the downsides of aluminum savantism might be?

I think you misunderstood I was refering to the battle in Oath bringer where Dalinar first opened a perpendicularity.

As for an aluminum bubble I got that Idea from it creating a bubble of disruption within a bendalloy bubble. It is also stated that it disrupts gravity surges and other directed surges.

In the descriptions the strength of both steel and iron are affected by their mass.

We really haven't seen anyone with the amount of fortune possible with compounded chromium. You might almost imagine someone like that to be like Scooby, inspector gadget, or get Smart on steroids. For that matter they might be like how Jackie Chan's characters appear luckily surviving encounters.

Thug/Soulbearers would also likely be far more accurate and able to use heavy projectile weapons as well. They would also be able to fire those rounds much more rapidly and at greater range. Once in close they could also use heavier melee weapons and would have a greater healing ability and pain resistance than average.

Using nicrosil grenades would be about timing. Someone launched into space by their own gravity lashing would likely have time to suck in stormlight. If they were headed down or toward and obstacle they might not have enough time to suck up stormlight before impact. A grenade launcher with sights would be a great way to to get the grenade on target. The fact that the Nicrosil cube doesn't actually need to hit you also implies that Nicroburst's might also develop ranged use of their abilities in the future.

A cadmium allomancer with Nicrosil cubes might not have the same problem. The Radiant frozen in time by the nicrosil cube would have a big problem. Again it would be timing that would be crucial.

There is not real surprise since Scadrials more modern weaponry would be used in conjunction with their magic. Separating them would be like separating Fabrials, and shards from Radiants. Except there is not specific oath requirement that restricts Scadrian Tech.

I am not willing to put the effort into more creative surge use since that is your preference and or bias.

here is the source of your WoB https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2422-hal-con/#comment-44676 where he says this "The majority of these questions and answers are paraphrased, as I wasn't able to record them, and I wasn't able to write everything down exactly as it was said. If the answer was a partial evasion, I did make sure to make special note of it, so those answers should be as said." That WoB may seem clear but it is contradictory and may not be accurate. Other WoB's are old enough and examples of him not wanting to reveal information at the time which has been updated. So when you quote be sure to look at both dates and sources of the WoB. Again it seems that the coppermind is updated as new WoB's come out.

I don't think the allomantic grenade was ette metal. I think it was nicrosil and was used as a spark for the ette metal fuel in the ship. Ette metal as the cubes material would be way to dangerous. Used as high explosives it would be great.

I have long been disabused of the idea that people in this thread are being objective. To assume that if someone agrees with you they are being objective is a fallacy, as is assuming that if someone disagrees with you they are not being objective. From my perspective almost all comments are subjective until I see otherwise and I take them as such.

If light had no mass solar sails wouldn't work. Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass. Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere? Light is energy and energy is investiture in the Cosmere, along with metal and soul they are all the same thing in different forms.

 

On 5/9/2021 at 8:28 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

How would being a Compounder help with Allomantic savantism?

More opportunity to burn aluminum. Also likely burning more aluminum and burning it more often.

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2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

What do you think the downsides of aluminum savantism might be?

Becoming a savant of any metal is really hard, and doing it for aluminum would be almost impossible. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10136

On downsides it would probably remove your natural investiture ressistence.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

In the descriptions the strength of both steel and iron are affected by their mass.

Again that's a ballast

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Using nicrosil grenades would be about timing. Someone launched into space by their own gravity lashing would likely have time to suck in stormlight. If they were headed down or toward and obstacle they might not have enough time to suck up stormlight before impact. A grenade launcher with sights would be a great way to to get the grenade on target. The fact that the Nicrosil cube doesn't actually need to hit you also implies that Nicroburst's might also develop ranged use of their abilities in the future.

The grenade would have to touch them.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

here is the source of your WoB https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2422-hal-con/#comment-44676 where he says this "The majority of these questions and answers are paraphrased, as I wasn't able to record them, and I wasn't able to write everything down exactly as it was said. If the answer was a partial evasion, I did make sure to make special note of it, so those answers should be as said." That WoB may seem clear but it is contradictory and may not be accurate. Other WoB's are old enough and examples of him not wanting to reveal information at the time which has been updated. So when you quote be sure to look at both dates and sources of the WoB. Again it seems that the coppermind is updated as new WoB's come out.

Coppermind is updated, sometimes, not all the time, there are lines without sources, and sources that do not support the arguments, the coppermind is an excelent referance guide, but WoB's are where the information comes from, even if a WoB is old or paraphrased, or both, the only way it is actually disproven is via a newer WoB or a book, so once again it is the WoB not the coppermind that contains the information.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

We really haven't seen anyone with the amount of fortune possible with compounded chromium. You might almost imagine someone like that to be like Scooby, inspector gadget, or get Smart on steroids. For that matter they might be like how Jackie Chan's characters appear luckily surviving encounters.

Yes we have, Shards have far more than a Chromium compounder could ever achieve, Elend had an increadible amount, etc.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I have long been disabused of the idea that people in this thread are being objective. To assume that if someone agrees with you they are being objective is a fallacy, as is assuming that if someone disagrees with you they are not being objective. From my perspective almost all comments are subjective until I see otherwise and I take them as such.

@Enter a username disagreed with me on a lot of things yet was perfectly objective, @ScadrianTank and others have all been objective and supported scadrial.

 

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If light had no mass solar sails wouldn't work. Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass. Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere? Light is energy and energy is investiture in the Cosmere, along with metal and soul they are all the same thing in different forms.

Light has no mass, no boson does, well, techencally Higgs does but not really.

Light has momentum, but not mass.

https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2014/04/01/light-has-no-mass-so-it-also-has-no-energy-according-to-einstein-but-how-can-sunlight-warm-the-earth-without-energy/

https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=16351

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1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

More opportunity to burn aluminum. Also likely burning more aluminum and burning it more often.

I mean in that case it's just an inclination thing, not a requirement.

I also don't think that'd even make you a savant in the Allomantic effect at all, if you're burning it for the Feruchemical effect, since in that case your spiritweb isn't being hit with the Allomancy.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass.

Since Stormlight has slight mass, to be more specific on what she said.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere?

This feels like saying "mist on Scadrial is still mist unless you think Scadrial's water is fundamentally different than other water in the Cosmere". The sunlight itself can still be light, but also have Autonomy messing with it and making it Invested (which likely would give it slight mass, yes, but that doesn't mean all light is that way).

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I think you misunderstood I was refering to the battle in Oath bringer where Dalinar first opened a perpendicularity.

I understood well enough, I just pointed out that we do see Jasnah soulcast without gems in RoW, where there is no perpendicularity around.

Also for most of battle at the end of Oathbringer the perpendicularity is already closed and Radiants are only using light in infused spheres. Perpendicularity is opened only for Chapter 119, at is closed the same chapter, fighting takes place afterwards. But it is true that everyone is infused with Stormlight to greater degree than usual.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

As for an aluminum bubble I got that Idea from it creating a bubble of disruption within a bendalloy bubble. It is also stated that it disrupts gravity surges and other directed surges.

Aluminum itself disrupts bubble, not a person burning aluminum. And nowhere is it stated that Aluminum disrupts surges, it only cannot be affected by them (and potentially they cannot affect things through it).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In the descriptions the strength of both steel and iron are affected by their mass.

Stronger in sense of physical force, yes. But not stronger in sense of 'can I push/pull on trace metals/invested objects', they still cannot do that.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We really haven't seen anyone with the amount of fortune possible with compounded chromium. You might almost imagine someone like that to be like Scooby, inspector gadget, or get Smart on steroids. For that matter they might be like how Jackie Chan's characters appear luckily surviving encounters.

Or they will see future kind of like Renarin when tapping a lot, or like Hoid (who uses Fortune) will 'know' they should be somewhere, but outside of that they will not get much. We simply don't know.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thug/Soulbearers would also likely be far more accurate and able to use heavy projectile weapons as well. They would also be able to fire those rounds much more rapidly and at greater range. Once in close they could also use heavier melee weapons and would have a greater healing ability and pain resistance than average.

Until they burn through their stores (if A-powers are storable), afterwards they will be just an ordinary Thug. They would not fire much more rapidly, they would still be limited by the weapon as most people are, and Radiant can still form Spren into a shield to protect themselves from most damage.

In close range they are still inferior to Radiant in plate who has better armor, better healing, (strength depends on how much is Thug/Soulbearer tapping) and comparable speed (or Thug is better if tapping enough), and of course Shardblade.

The biggest advantage they would have is speed, because they are most of the time weaker, all of the time squishier, all of the time have worse healing. All of this sums to the simple fact that Thug/Soulbearer cannot afford to get hit once, but Radiant still can.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Using nicrosil grenades would be about timing. Someone launched into space by their own gravity lashing would likely have time to suck in stormlight. If they were headed down or toward and obstacle they might not have enough time to suck up stormlight before impact. A grenade launcher with sights would be a great way to to get the grenade on target. The fact that the Nicrosil cube doesn't actually need to hit you also implies that Nicroburst's might also develop ranged use of their abilities in the future.

All that is assuming Nicrosil is also ranged when primed, and timing is a tricky thing when your target shifts directions faster they you can move (and can move 50 m away from assumed direction under 3 seconds).

Again, primer cubes use ettmetal (a godmetal), so to draw conclusions on Misting powers from them can be misleading.

Also, breathing in Stormlight when hurt has been shown to be partly instinctual, like burning A-pewter when hurt. So if the fall did not kill them outright, they could survive.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A cadmium allomancer with Nicrosil cubes might not have the same problem. The Radiant frozen in time by the nicrosil cube would have a big problem. Again it would be timing that would be crucial.

So Cadmium primed cubes, not nicrosil cubes? That could work, provided of course Radiant does not have suppresor fabrial on them. And since we are apparently allowing fabrials to Scadrians, Rosharans should have them also.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There is not real surprise since Scadrials more modern weaponry would be used in conjunction with their magic. Separating them would be like separating Fabrials, and shards from Radiants. Except there is not specific oath requirement that restricts Scadrian Tech.

Fabrials are comparable true, but Shards are literally inseparable from Radiant, but you can still take a gun from anyone. In any case if you equate guns to fabrials, then we should equip Radiants with suppresor fabrials for the purpose of our discussion, negating all ettmetal cubes and all Metallic Arts within ~10-15 meters of Radiant.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

here is the source of your WoB https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2422-hal-con/#comment-44676 where he says this

"The majority of these questions and answers are paraphrased, as I wasn't able to record them, and I wasn't able to write everything down exactly as it was said. If the answer was a partial evasion, I did make sure to make special note of it, so those answers should be as said."

That WoB may seem clear but it is contradictory and may not be accurate. Other WoB's are old enough and examples of him not wanting to reveal information at the time which has been updated. So when you quote be sure to look at both dates and sources of the WoB. Again it seems that the coppermind is updated as new WoB's come out.

How is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) contradictory? There is no other source on the topic as far as I am aware, i.e. there is nothing it contradicts. If you have some other source on this topic, please share it instead of saying there is contradiction.

I do look at the dates of WoBs, and generally try to pick the recent ones over the older ones if there are multiple on the topic.

While Coppermind is updated, it is not updated as fast as you assume + it still uses WoBs/books as it source.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I don't think the allomantic grenade was ette metal. I think it was nicrosil and was used as a spark for the ette metal fuel in the ship. Ette metal as the cubes material would be way to dangerous. Used as high explosives it would be great.

While you may not think so, the primer cubes are in fact made of ettmetal, if you try to find primer cube on Coppermind it redirects you to Ettmetal. There is most likely something else involved, but at the time we have no idea what it is, and the ettmetal is still crucial to its workings (i.e. no ettmetal, no primer cube).

In addition, ettmetal machinery has been shown to create effects that are not possible with Metallic Arts (airship lowering its mass), so it clearly allows effects not possible just with Metallic Arts.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I have long been disabused of the idea that people in this thread are being objective. To assume that if someone agrees with you they are being objective is a fallacy, as is assuming that if someone disagrees with you they are not being objective. From my perspective almost all comments are subjective until I see otherwise and I take them as such.

You are not arbiter of what is or is not objective. Then again, neither am I. I also do not assume someone is objective because they agree with me (or vice versa).

Generally I start by assuming others are arguing/debating in good faith (i.e. strive to be as objective as possible), and then adjust based on their behavior. Part of that is acknowledging when being wrong, other part is being willing to share arguments that would weaken your previous position if you think of them.

It also helps if other parties explain their reasoning, because then I can at least trace a point where we disagree to one/few statements.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If light had no mass solar sails wouldn't work. Oh and Jasna said that Shallon's illusions had mass since light has some mass. Sunlight from Taldain's sun is still light unless you think Taldain's sun is fundamentally different than other stars in the Cosmere? Light is energy and energy is investiture in the Cosmere, along with metal and soul they are all the same thing in different forms.

LIght has energy and momentum, and thanks to momentum light sail can work. Light still has no mass.

Shallan's illusions had mass because they are made of Stormlight (which then created the illusion) + Shallan can soulcast which can also partly explain it.

Since physical objects can be infused with Investiture (see metalminds, spikes, Awakened objects, gems, parts of fabrials, etc.), it is easy to imagine that Autonomy invests photons of Taldain's dayside sun, as light is still a physical thing.

While energy, mass and investiture can be converted among one another in Cosmere, that does not mean that hunk of steel is the same thing as gamma radiation, or that water vapor are pure investiture. They can be converted into one another, and compared to some extent, but they are still different things.

Edited by therunner
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21 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This feels like saying "mist on Scadrial is still mist unless you think Scadrial's water is fundamentally different than other water in the Cosmere". The sunlight itself can still be light, but also have Autonomy messing with it and making it Invested (which likely would give it slight mass, yes, but that doesn't mean all light is that way).

Mist on Scadrial is not made up of water like fog, nor does it act exactly like it is. For instance it doesn't cross boundaries nor is there ever a comment on the air being more humid. You still haven't addressed that energy of which light is a form, metal, and soul are the same in the Cosmere. 

14 hours ago, therunner said:

I understood well enough, I just pointed out that we do see Jasnah soulcast without gems in RoW, where there is no perpendicularity around.

Also for most of battle at the end of Oathbringer the perpendicularity is already closed and Radiants are only using light in infused spheres. Perpendicularity is opened only for Chapter 119, at is closed the same chapter, fighting takes place afterwards. But it is true that everyone is infused with Stormlight to greater degree than usual.

Aluminum itself disrupts bubble, not a person burning aluminum. And nowhere is it stated that Aluminum disrupts surges, it only cannot be affected by them (and potentially they cannot affect things through it).

Stronger in sense of physical force, yes. But not stronger in sense of 'can I push/pull on trace metals/invested objects', they still cannot do that.

Or they will see future kind of like Renarin when tapping a lot, or like Hoid (who uses Fortune) will 'know' they should be somewhere, but outside of that they will not get much. We simply don't know.

Until they burn through their stores (if A-powers are storable), afterwards they will be just an ordinary Thug. They would not fire much more rapidly, they would still be limited by the weapon as most people are, and Radiant can still form Spren into a shield to protect themselves from most damage.

In close range they are still inferior to Radiant in plate who has better armor, better healing, (strength depends on how much is Thug/Soulbearer tapping) and comparable speed (or Thug is better if tapping enough), and of course Shardblade.

The biggest advantage they would have is speed, because they are most of the time weaker, all of the time squishier, all of the time have worse healing. All of this sums to the simple fact that Thug/Soulbearer cannot afford to get hit once, but Radiant still can.

All that is assuming Nicrosil is also ranged when primed, and timing is a tricky thing when your target shifts directions faster they you can move (and can move 50 m away from assumed direction under 3 seconds).

Again, primer cubes use ettmetal (a godmetal), so to draw conclusions on Misting powers from them can be misleading.

Also, breathing in Stormlight when hurt has been shown to be partly instinctual, like burning A-pewter when hurt. So if the fall did not kill them outright, they could survive.

So Cadmium primed cubes, not nicrosil cubes? That could work, provided of course Radiant does not have suppresor fabrial on them. And since we are apparently allowing fabrials to Scadrians, Rosharans should have them also.

Fabrials are comparable true, but Shards are literally inseparable from Radiant, but you can still take a gun from anyone. In any case if you equate guns to fabrials, then we should equip Radiants with suppresor fabrials for the purpose of our discussion, negating all ettmetal cubes and all Metallic Arts within ~10-15 meters of Radiant.

How is the WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) contradictory? There is no other source on the topic as far as I am aware, i.e. there is nothing it contradicts. If you have some other source on this topic, please share it instead of saying there is contradiction.

I do look at the dates of WoBs, and generally try to pick the recent ones over the older ones if there are multiple on the topic.

While Coppermind is updated, it is not updated as fast as you assume + it still uses WoBs/books as it source.

While you may not think so, the primer cubes are in fact made of ettmetal, if you try to find primer cube on Coppermind it redirects you to Ettmetal. There is most likely something else involved, but at the time we have no idea what it is, and the ettmetal is still crucial to its workings (i.e. no ettmetal, no primer cube).

In addition, ettmetal machinery has been shown to create effects that are not possible with Metallic Arts (airship lowering its mass), so it clearly allows effects not possible just with Metallic Arts.

You are not arbiter of what is or is not objective. Then again, neither am I. I also do not assume someone is objective because they agree with me (or vice versa).

Generally I start by assuming others are arguing/debating in good faith (i.e. strive to be as objective as possible), and then adjust based on their behavior. Part of that is acknowledging when being wrong, other part is being willing to share arguments that would weaken your previous position if you think of them.

It also helps if other parties explain their reasoning, because then I can at least trace a point where we disagree to one/few statements.

LIght has energy and momentum, and thanks to momentum light sail can work. Light still has no mass.

Shallan's illusions had mass because they are made of Stormlight (which then created the illusion) + Shallan can soulcast which can also partly explain it.

Since physical objects can be infused with Investiture (see metalminds, spikes, Awakened objects, gems, parts of fabrials, etc.), it is easy to imagine that Autonomy invests photons of Taldain's dayside sun, as light is still a physical thing.

While energy, mass and investiture can be converted among one another in Cosmere, that does not mean that hunk of steel is the same thing as gamma radiation, or that water vapor are pure investiture. They can be converted into one another, and compared to some extent, but they are still different things.

After the perpendicularity closed Jasna found it increasingly more difficult to Soulcast. Her ability to seemingly soulcast effortlessly has to do with her skill, practice and perhaps her oath level. Still she finds it more difficult than she did during that battle because of the relative closeness or separation of the realms.

Blocks or disrupts what is the difference?

From Iron Copper mind:

"There are two general rules for ironpulling, which also apply to steelpushing, its paired opposite. The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight,"

Mass affects Steel and Iron as more than just an anchor.

Look if you increase your fortune 1 million times in just 5 compounds it would enable insane foresight or luck. that is just 5 times each additional time beyond that is 10 times more. At the very least that is a 1 million seconds (277 years) at twice you natural luck after 5 compounds. Another way to look at it is a long life time at 6 times your natural luck. At six compoundings 60 times then 600 times then 6,000 times, then 60,000 times, then 600,000 times, and finally 6 million times for a life time in a total of 10 compoundings even if the initial time spent storing is only 1 second. Every form of compounding is about increasing a power or attribute by geometric scale tappable without loss in the time it took to store initially. Feruchemy is lossless so long as you don't compress the time.

Give me a link to where the cubes are described as ette metal? They are used as primers for ette metal fuel in the southern air ships, but they act more like nicrosil themselves. Nicrosil stores or enhances investiture.

The Radiant needs to reach close range, and you have been assuming a lot of speed and maneuverability vs fire arms projectiles and explosives. I don't think we have concrete examples to support that assumption. Even subsonic bullets traveling 600 ft/sec have a velocity of 216,000 mph and those are slow bullets. So forming a shield or changing direction before impact is highly unlikely even for a Radiant. If the ammunition is aluminum the Radiant can afford a single hit either. Explosive or armor piercing rounds would also be a problem as would rapid fire weapons.

Suppressor fabrial would work if it were keyed to suppress cadmium. Though I am not sure how they would come up with one that did. Perhaps I am mistaken but the cube did seem to leech Wax at a distance. I don't remember it actually hitting him.

Right if they have the chance to breath in stormlight they will likely survive that strike, but all that stormlight used all at once fueling a gravity lashing into a solid barrier would be spectacular and very quick. No plate it might be rotten tomato. It might also be interesting whether the wall gets knocked down or the Radiant goes splat or some combination.

Your WoB contradicts the explicit description in the Coppermind, by Wax, and by Sazed. It is also a paraphrase of what the person thinks they asked and the response they think they received. In addition we don't have a recording to verify how accurate the person was. Even though it is included in WoB's we can't be sure it is exactly what Brandon said or what was actually asked.

No I am no arbiter of objectivity only Brandon is in this instance. I am an arbiter of whether someone shares my subjective opinion, and grant that others have their own subjective opinions which I may or may not share mine in full or in part. The whole world was objectively flat according to everybody at the time, except that was actually a subjective fact taken as objective. When we see how Brandon treats these abilities in his books then we will know what is objective. His treatment of Iron Feruchemy from my perspective leaves room for supposition. Wax has a subjective opinion which from his experience is accurate, but is still limited to his restrictions on storing.

Water isn't a metal, or energy so is not actually the same. It is a fungus or lifeform living on the sand that converts the light into investiture on Taldain(?). That was from the intro to white sand in Arcanum Unbound.

Here is a creative use of Rosharan weaponry. A shardbullwhip instead of a Shardsword. That could be interesting. Shard jet boots on dustbringers plate to fly with using Division. they might even be able to form Shard wings for stability.

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14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Mist on Scadrial is not made up of water like fog, nor does it act exactly like it is.

And Stormlight on Roshar is not made up of photons like light, nor does it act exactly like it is.

15 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You still haven't addressed that energy of which light is a form, metal, and soul are the same in the Cosmere. 

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here, can you clarify what the question you're asking is?

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Give me a link to where the cubes are described as ette metal? They are used as primers for ette metal fuel in the southern air ships, but they act more like nicrosil themselves. Nicrosil stores or enhances investiture.

BoM 22:

Quote
“Here, see,” Allik said, kneeling down and opening the compartment where he’d put the little cube that Waxillium called an Allomantic grenade. It was attached to a metal shell, which glowed softly at the center. Allik pointed, and to the side she could see a greater light blazing with a pure whiteness. A stone, burning like a limelight.
 
Or like Allomancy itself, Marasi realized. “What kind of metal is it, though?”
 
“Ettmetal,” Allik said, shrugging. “There’s a little bit in the primer cube too, to make it work. A lot more to make a ship like Wilg go, and a lot, lot more to get Brunstell into the air. You don’t have this metal?”

 

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Perhaps I am mistaken but the cube did seem to leech Wax at a distance. I don't remember it actually hitting him.

This is correct, though it did come very close to him, so it's not clear what the range is. But it definitely does not require contact.

22 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your WoB contradicts the explicit description in the Coppermind, by Wax, and by Sazed.

What does it contradict?

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23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Mist on Scadrial is not made up of water like fog, nor does it act exactly like it is. For instance it doesn't cross boundaries nor is there ever a comment on the air being more humid. You still haven't addressed that energy of which light is a form, metal, and soul are the same in the Cosmere. 

All matter energy and investiture are the same, not just metal, just as energy and matter are the same IRL, your point?

25 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

From Iron Copper mind:

"There are two general rules for ironpulling, which also apply to steelpushing, its paired opposite. The first rule is that the strength of your pull is roughly proportional to your physical mass. This means that larger Allomancers can generally ironpull and steelpush more powerfully than a smaller counterpart. While proportional, the force exerted by an ironpull is much greater than the Lurcher's weight,"

 The coppermind is written by fans, without a source that passage has no more authority than my word, if I wanted to I could go in and change that passage, those quotes mean nothing.

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Look if you increase your fortune 1 million times in just 5 compounds it would enable insane foresight or luck. that is just 5 times each additional time beyond that is 10 times more. At the very least that is a 1 million seconds (277 years) at twice you natural luck after 5 compounds. Another way to look at it is a long life time at 6 times your natural luck. At six compoundings 60 times then 600 times then 6,000 times, then 60,000 times, then 600,000 times, and finally 6 million times for a life time in a total of 10 compoundings even if the initial time spent storing is only 1 second. Every form of compounding is about increasing a power or attribute by geometric scale tappable without loss in the time it took to store initially. Feruchemy is lossless so long as you don't compress the time.

again it's FORTUNE not luck, big difference. And on top of that normal humans do not have a lot of fortune to start with.

28 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The Radiant needs to reach close range, and you have been assuming a lot of speed and maneuverability vs fire arms projectiles and explosives. I don't think we have concrete examples to support that assumption. Even subsonic bullets traveling 600 ft/sec have a velocity of 216,000 mph and those are slow bullets. So forming a shield or changing direction before impact is highly unlikely even for a Radiant. If the ammunition is aluminum the Radiant can afford a single hit either. Explosive or armor piercing rounds would also be a problem as would rapid fire weapons.

Humans can think way faster than that.

Aluminum bullets are less a threat than you assume, starting with the fact that they would be incredibly soft and likely less effective thn regular ones, unless you planted them inside the brain, or intetionallly used them as a spike though the heart it wouldn't do anything serious enough to stop them.

Even speciallized rounds aren't getting through a shardsheild, and  using that they can get in ranfe and you're dead.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Suppressor fabrial would work if it were keyed to suppress cadmium. Though I am not sure how they would come up with one that did. Perhaps I am mistaken but the cube did seem to leech Wax at a distance. I don't remember it actually hitting him.

 Set to suppress it would work on all metalic arts, or maybe just Allomancy/feruchemy but I think that's less likely.

34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Your WoB contradicts the explicit description in the Coppermind, by Wax, and by Sazed. It is also a paraphrase of what the person thinks they asked and the response they think they received. In addition we don't have a recording to verify how accurate the person was. Even though it is included in WoB's we can't be sure it is exactly what Brandon said or what was actually asked.

Again coppermind quotes mean nothing.

36 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Water isn't a metal, or energy so is not actually the same. It is a fungus or lifeform living on the sand that converts the light into investiture on Taldain(?). That was from the intro to white sand in Arcanum Unbound.

actually water is energy.

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Here is a creative use of Rosharan weaponry. A shardbullwhip instead of a Shardsword. That could be interesting. Shard jet boots on dustbringers plate to fly with using Division. they might even be able to form Shard wings for stability.

Shards have not shown themselves being flexible enough for a whip.

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