Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

therunner · April 13, 2021

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

F-brass affects the outside world

I do not think it does, while tapping it/storing it changes the temperature of feruchemist and this can than affect environment, it is still indirect effect. When tapping F-pewter the feruchemists enlarges, and so displaces for example water if they were submerged, but that is also indirect effect.

Frustration · April 14, 2021

@Publius this is how Marasi survived

therunner · April 15, 2021

@Frustration I don't know why, but for some reason this video is incredibly funny to me, thank you for posting it here

Publius · April 16, 2021

@Frustration It's an interesting video but I don't see how the Leidenfrost effect is applicable to Marasi and air friction.

Frustration · April 23, 2021

On 4/15/2021 at 8:20 PM, Publius said:

@Frustration It's an interesting video but I don't see how the Leidenfrost effect is applicable to Marasi and air friction.

Marasi was at mistpoint, it's entirly possible it insulated her.

BenduLuke · April 23, 2021

From many of your comments I can see that my intent was grossly misunderstood. I was attempting to give viable situations where Scadrian Magic could likely beat Rosharn Magic in martial applications even if the Radiants were of high Ideals. The whole discussion to this point all but ignored Fused, and Void Bonds and most orders of Radiants. Also everyone overlooked that only Storm or Void light have a confirmed anti-investiture leaving open a Kryptonite for Rosharans that may not have an analog in other systems of the Cosmere like metal arts.

One of the things I leaned heavy on what the near infinite amount of investiture available to Twinborn compounders. All Scadrian are invested, but for most their investiture needs to be triggered which has been stated as happening more and more often as time goes on in the Cosmere such that mistings, ferings, and twins will become ever more common in the future. For Scadrians they have investiture and metal gives them the key to unlock that power in certain specific ways and for some give near infinite amounts of power in narrow areas.

Rosharans on the other hand are not invested until they receive a key through a bond with a cognitive entity to channel investiture. Sever the bond, Leach the light, or attack with anti light and at best they are normal people or worse dead. It also seems that most of those who can form those bonds are in some way broken people and so potentially more open to psychic or emotional attacks. Until they reach 4th ideal when they get plate they are little more than peak human potential for their physical abilities except healing which is formidable until they are out of stormlight. Stormlight constantly leaks whether it is used or not from all but the most perfect gems so must constantly be re-taken by a Radiant to maintain their abilities since they remain normal without it. Even once they reach 4th Ideal the armor only acts like powered battle armor magnifying physical abilities and durability so much defendant on stormlight to continue to function. Damaging plate is a great way to drain stormlight from a Radiant and it can be damaged with force possible from normal people and weapons. The more constant or extreme the force the more damage and the more stormlight lost in short periods of time.

According to Cosmere Law any compounder has the potential to become a perpendicularity themselves so escaping to the CR is not always going to be a good strategy since Metalborn have all their abilities there and Radiants lose 2 of their greatest advantages, Shardblades and Shardplate. This is the case since any sufficiently large concentration of Investiture creates a perpendicularity and compounders have the potential for nearly unlimited investiture in one thing.

Though many metal arts don't translate directly to martial ability alone, many do lend themselves to martial discoveries. A Bronze compounder would be able to detect the specific frequency of Stormlight and could work around the clock to produce anti-stormlight grenades to use or even shorten the process by working with a Zinc compounder who through mental speed could take the readings from the Bronze compounder and create schematics for any number of anti Radiant weapons based on the anti-light. A brass compounder might be impervious to any heat based division or soulcasting attack while exploiting any emotional weaknesses within the Radiant. Gravity, adhesion, and cohesion surges might be almost useless against an Iron Compounder. 1 or more gravity lash to send them flying might be useless if they can double or more their weight instantly. If the wall can't hold the weight adhesion wont hold them. Cohesion is a little trickier but if the person you slicked is suddenly much heavier perhaps all you have done is turn them into a wrecking ball since they could potentially control their movement through metal pulls without resistance. it is also hard to make someone slippery who can literally be heavy enough to sink into almost any surface. Both steel and Iron compounders could tear fabrials to pieces since they depend on metal cages. Pewter compounders would have near limitless strength so any hit with a suitably durable weapon could inflict critical damage to Radiant even in plate.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe that a battle between Scadrian Magic and Rosharan Magic is as one sided as has often been represented in this discussion.

Oh an Iron compounder would probably form a perpendicularity long before they formed a steller object and a Steel compounder would probably trigger a perpendicularity long before significant percentages of light speed and maybe even before wind resistance and friction become a serious health issue.

I also noticed that ideas on this stream evaporated after I focused in other areas.

Bejarden · April 23, 2021

SoD2 spoilers

Spoiler

From there we see that they are in imperialism together. So if any of them could destroy the other they would. I think you are correct in your analysis in that there is no clear winner.

BenduLuke · April 23, 2021

4 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

SoD2 spoilers

Hide contents

From there we see that they are in imperialism together. So if any of them could destroy the other they would. I think you are correct in your analysis in that there is no clear winner.

how do you do the hide contents or split a comment to reply to each part? Oh and how do you put a title under your name like you have Rosharan Worldhopper?

Edited April 23, 2021 by BenduLuke

Bejarden · April 23, 2021

Highlight a specific part. Then a quote button will appear.

Or you can quote the whole thing and then delete the words you don’t want

I think that’s what your asking

BenduLuke · April 23, 2021

27 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Highlight a specific part. Then a quote button will appear.

Or you can quote the whole thing and then delete the words you don’t want

I think that’s what your asking

Does that work when you have multi quoted? Can you highlight part of the quote after using the multi quote within the response? People kept telling me to stop double posting and to use the multi-quote.

Oh and the Title under your name, Rosharan Worldhopper how do you do that? Never mind i finally figured it out.

To be honest I got a little frustrated with this topic since it seemed like most of the posts skewed toward Roshar and didn't want to speculate on how Scadrial might have more than a passing chance if any chance at all. Thanks for the SoD2 spoilers. Where do I find them?

Edited April 23, 2021 by BenduLuke

Bejarden · April 23, 2021

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Does that work when you have multi quoted?

Yes I think ( Muti quote is when you quote multiple things I assume)

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Can you highlight part of the quote after using the multi quote within the response?

Yes

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and the Title under your name, Rosharan Worldhopper how do you do that?

Go to your profile l, click edit profile ( the little pencil in the right hand corner) then press ‘member title’

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

To be honest I got a little frustrated with this topic since it seemed like most of the posts skewed toward Roshar and didn't want to speculate on how Scadrial might have more than a passing chance if any chance at all

I think this has to do with the fact that Scadrial never really is seen using all their capabilities, we see they have stuff but they rarely use it to its full extent. Like we’ve never seen a active compounder attack someone.

16 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Thanks for the SoD2 spoilers. Where do I find them?

The excerpt? It’s on Arcanum under RoW release party

Frustration · April 23, 2021

40 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Even once they reach 4th Ideal the armor only acts like powered battle armor magnifying physical abilities and durability so much defendant on stormlight to continue to function.

Has yet to be seen.

41 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Damaging plate is a great way to drain stormlight from a Radiant and it can be damaged with force possible from normal people and weapons. The more constant or extreme the force the more damage and the more stormlight lost in short periods of time.

Any normal person would die long before they became a problem.

42 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

According to Cosmere Law any compounder has the potential to become a perpendicularity themselves so escaping to the CR is not always going to be a good strategy since Metalborn have all their abilities there and Radiants lose 2 of their greatest advantages, Shardblades and Shardplate. This is the case since any sufficiently large concentration of Investiture creates a perpendicularity and compounders have the potential for nearly unlimited investiture in one thing.

The only one confirmed is F-Nicrocil and if it were easy Marasi would have done it with the bands, so it's not a feasible option.

43 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I also noticed that ideas on this stream evaporated after I focused in other areas.

We were letting the thread die because it has gone on for almost half a year and we're done with this conversation.

Also tone down the ego.

39 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

SoD2 spoilers

Reveal hidden contents

From there we see that they are in imperialism together. So if any of them could destroy the other they would. I think you are correct in your analysis in that there is no clear winner.

Scadrial is not neccesarily alone in that conflict, nor do we know if it has come to war yet.

Bejarden · April 23, 2021

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Scadrial is not neccesarily alone in that conflict, nor do we know if it has come to war yet.

It still woudnt be a competition if one side was so much more powerful than the other. And I don’t think Sel is the biggest Cosmere power due to its restraints.

And there aren’t that much more planets that can compete

BenduLuke · April 23, 2021

48 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Has yet to be seen.

Any normal person would die long before they became a problem.

The only one confirmed is F-Nicrocil and if it were easy Marasi would have done it with the bands, so it's not a feasible option.

We were letting the thread die because it has gone on for almost half a year and we're done with this conversation.

Also tone down the ego.

Scadrial is not neccesarily alone in that conflict, nor do we know if it has come to war yet.

How shardplate works has been seen. It magnifies physical abilities like speed, strength, and agility and it absorbs physical and invested damage, but a regular hammer weilded by a normal person can cause enough damage to make it leak.

It really doesn't matter if a normal person would die before that is a problem because someone with Scadrian Magic is not a normal person.

Yeah I get it you ran out of imagination and scared away anyone who would disagree with you so you thought the discussion was over. ;-)

Nicrosil is not the only possibility any compounder could acheive it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8920 Or coppermind Investiture. Marisi wasn't a compounder.

This thread assumes war. ROW indicates there are other involved Shards.

Ego? I am not sure you have any room to talk! Facts are not ego even if you disagree with them.

51 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Go to your profile l, click edit profile ( the little pencil in the right hand corner) then press ‘member title’

I think this has to do with the fact that Scadrial never really is seen using all their capabilities, we see they have stuff but they rarely use it to its full extent. Like we’ve never seen a active compounder attack someone.

The excerpt? It’s on Arcanum under RoW release party

Thanks I finally figured out the title.

I would agree that we haven't really seen martial applications from the Mistborn books, but with Twinborn compounders we have individuals who can have near unlimited power in limited uses. Miles could likely out heal even 5th ideal radiants and was all but immortal with regard to damage and injury. TLR is the only other compounder we have seen and he could heal from almost anything and was 1,000 years old. If he had compounded more metals he really could have been invincible, but he didn't. Even regular twins can have enormous potential power depending on what the goal is.

One thing I discovered over the weekend was that any sufficient amount of investiture will create a perpendicularity so since compounders can have nearly unlimited investiture in their metal art each and everyone has the potential to create a perpendicularity regardless what metal art they use. So much for using transportation to escape to the cognitive realm and Metal arts work everywhere in the Cosmere. I could see a Zinc or Brass compounder crush a Radiant in the Cognitive realm with emotional Allomancy since the Radiant would be without their plate to shield them. Brass compounders might want to be careful since they might incinerate before the perpendicularity opens, unless they have some way to direct the heat away from them. notice the link to Frustration.

Thanks for the reference.

Edited April 23, 2021 by BenduLuke

therunner · April 23, 2021

Quote

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

From many of your comments I can see that my intent was grossly misunderstood. I was attempting to give viable situations where Scadrian Magic could likely beat Rosharn Magic in martial applications even if the Radiants were of high Ideals. The whole discussion to this point all but ignored Fused, and Void Bonds and most orders of Radiants. Also everyone overlooked that only Storm or Void light have a confirmed anti-investiture leaving open a Kryptonite for Rosharans that may not have an analog in other systems of the Cosmere like metal arts.

Anti-investiture is general, just as tones are. So even Scadrians are susceptible to it, altough since they contain such investiture only when burning/tapping/storing they are susceptible shorter amounts of time.

Quote

One of the things I leaned heavy on what the near infinite amount of investiture available to Twinborn compounders. All Scadrian are invested, but for most their investiture needs to be triggered which has been stated as happening more and more often as time goes on in the Cosmere such that mistings, ferings, and twins will become ever more common in the future. For Scadrians they have investiture and metal gives them the key to unlock that power in certain specific ways and for some give near infinite amounts of power in narrow areas.

Rosharans on the other hand are not invested until they receive a key through a bond with a cognitive entity to channel investiture. Sever the bond, Leach the light, or attack with anti light and at best they are normal people or worse dead. It also seems that most of those who can form those bonds are in some way broken people and so potentially more open to psychic or emotional attacks. Until they reach 4th ideal when they get plate they are little more than peak human potential for their physical abilities except healing which is formidable until they are out of stormlight. Stormlight constantly leaks whether it is used or not from all but the most perfect gems so must constantly be re-taken by a Radiant to maintain their abilities since they remain normal without it. Even once they reach 4th Ideal the armor only acts like powered battle armor magnifying physical abilities and durability so much defendant on stormlight to continue to function. Damaging plate is a great way to drain stormlight from a Radiant and it can be damaged with force possible from normal people and weapons. The more constant or extreme the force the more damage and the more stormlight lost in short periods of time

So,

Scadrians are no more invested than other humans in Cosmere. In fact Nalthians are more invested. Scadrian when burning metals/tapping becomes more invested for the duration of the burn/tap, but even then they are less invested than Radiant with Stormlight.
Birth rates of both ferring and misting have become saturated per WoBs, i.e. their incidence in population will not continue to grow.
Metal is not key for Scadrians innate investiture, just a key to access Preservation/Harmonies investiture from spiritual realm (analogy to Sel, metal=Aon, Preservation investiture=Dor)
Being broken is prerequisite even for metalic arts (see snapping). Also protagonists of SA are bit of outliers, compare Kaladin with Lopen.
Radiants become increasingly better at holding light as they progress.
We have seen very little of shardplate so far, but in principle Radiant might be able to deny it healing for a short while.

Quote

Though many metal arts don't translate directly to martial ability alone, many do lend themselves to martial discoveries. A Bronze compounder would be able to detect the specific frequency of Stormlight and could work around the clock to produce anti-stormlight grenades to use or even shorten the process by working with a Zinc compounder who through mental speed could take the readings from the Bronze compounder and create schematics for any number of anti Radiant weapons based on the anti-light. A brass compounder might be impervious to any heat based division or soulcasting attack while exploiting any emotional weaknesses within the Radiant. Gravity, adhesion, and cohesion surges might be almost useless against an Iron Compounder. 1 or more gravity lash to send them flying might be useless if they can double or more their weight instantly. If the wall can't hold the weight adhesion wont hold them. Cohesion is a little trickier but if the person you slicked is suddenly much heavier perhaps all you have done is turn them into a wrecking ball since they could potentially control their movement through metal pulls without resistance. it is also hard to make someone slippery who can literally be heavy enough to sink into almost any surface. Both steel and Iron compounders could tear fabrials to pieces since they depend on metal cages. Pewter compounders would have near limitless strength so any hit with a suitably durable weapon could inflict critical damage to Radiant even in plate.

For anti-stormlight grenades you would first need a way to produce light, which Scadrians do not have.
I think for resistence against heat based attacks Brass ferring would suffice, they could simply store excess heat, no need for compounding.
Iron compounder would be just as affected by gravitation as anyone else, all the doubling of their mass would do is that the lashing would wear off faster (gravitational acceleration upon object does not depend on the objects mass). Cohesion however would be deadly for him, just make the ground less cohesive and watch him fall, there their weight would work against them. You mistook Cohesion and Abrasion.
You do not need compounders to attack fabrials, ordinary steel and iron would do. However, you would first have to get close enough to fabrial so that you can push/pull, and Roshar has suppressor fabrials.
Pewter compounders are also limited in how much they can tap if they want to remain mobile, so far from near limitless. Even Sazed reached mobility limit of pewter.

Quote

Oh an Iron compounder would probably form a perpendicularity long before they formed a steller object and a Steel compounder would probably trigger a perpendicularity long before significant percentages of light speed and maybe even before wind resistance and friction become a serious health issue.

Iron compounder, maybe.

Steel compounder definitely not before wind resistance and friction become issue. Marasis Mach 10 movement is far beyond where both friction and compression become issues, and there was no perpendicularity there.

In general I think the issue with compounders and perpendicularity is that you attach such to a feat (become stellar object/move at some speed), however since tapping is unlimited even ordinary Feruchemsit can reach such feats even if only for a short time. What you need is large amount of stored attribute inside the metalmind to form perpendicularity (or tap all that attribute at once), and since even BoM are less invested than shardblades (not to mention Nightblood, who does not seem to be perpendicularity) this means that even for compounders this is a very difficult goal. Possible in principle, but not very realistic.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah I get it you ran out of imagination and scared away anyone who would disagree with you so you thought the discussion was over. ;-)

Ego? I am not sure you have any room to talk! Facts are not ego even if you disagree with them.

I think this is uncalled for, both the snark and personal attacks.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

One thing I discovered over the weekend was that any sufficient amount of investiture will create a perpendicularity so since compounders can have nearly unlimited investiture in their metal art each and everyone has the potential to create a perpendicularity regardless what metal art they use. So much for using transportation to escape to the cognitive realm and Metal arts work everywhere in the Cosmere. I could see a Zinc or Brass compounder crush a Radiant in the Cognitive realm with emotional Allomancy since the Radiant would be without their plate to shield them. Brass compounders might want to be careful since they might incinerate before the perpendicularity opens, unless they have some way to direct the heat away from them. notice the link to Frustration.

While in principle compounder could get enough investiture to create perpendicularity, I think it is telling that we have seen none do so, i.e. it is technically possible, but that does not make it realistic. Per WoBs soulcasting can destroy shardplates (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254), but it does not make sense to assume that any Radiant with Transformation could simply soulcast away metalminds as it would require inordinate amount of power (however still far less than soulcasting shardplate).

Also, neither zinc nor brass compounder would 'crush' Radiant in Cognitive Realm, Radiant would still presumably have stormlight in them which should provide at least some protective effects and emotional allomancy alone will not give compoounder advantage. Also Radiant will still have their surges and are physically enhanced by stormlight.

Edited April 23, 2021 by therunner
More replies (I accidentaly send before completing)

Frustration · April 24, 2021

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

It still woudnt be a competition if one side was so much more powerful than the other. And I don’t think Sel is the biggest Cosmere power due to its restraints.

And there aren’t that much more planets that can compete

Nalthis is a powerhouse though, esspecially if type IV commands got out,

And The Aether world will be a player

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

How shardplate works has been seen. It magnifies physical abilities like speed, strength, and agility and it absorbs physical and invested damage, but a regular hammer weilded by a normal person can cause enough damage to make it leak.

1. I was refering to using stormlight to function

2.A Normal person with a hammer is only enough after several minutes of beating.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah I get it you ran out of imagination and scared away anyone who would disagree with you so you thought the discussion was over. ;-)

You know in the debate community it's seen as a sign that you're losing when you start attacking the other person instead of their argument.

And Several people disagree with me and where not "scared off" if you think that you have a really low opinion of them. @Bzhydack @Enter a username and even people like @The Technovore and @Bigmikey357 and others disagree with me, but we've had pleasant conversation and debate over various points, what set's you apart is that you argue with baseless speculation and I feel the need to correct you.

And by now the discussion should be over threads do not normally last at this activity level for this long.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Nicrosil is not the only possibility any compounder could acheive it. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314-salt-lake-city-signing/#e8920 Or coppermind Investiture. Marisi wasn't a compounder.

That WoB says nothing about commpounders this Wob

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Would have helpped you case better, but that's besides the point being a comppounder is irrelivent, Dalinar isn't a commpounder but he has a perpendicualrity on speedial, Jasnah and other Elsecallers and Willshapers can make them, but they can't compound. Marasi tapped everything in the Bands at once, and depleted it at an increadible rate but she didn't cause a perpendicularity(though she might have been close) and that was a creation of a Fullborn, metalminds so full they were indistinguishable from aluminum, that isn't something that will be made every other year on Scandrial.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Ego? I am not sure you have any room to talk! Facts are not ego even if you disagree with them.

You assume that you are the only one here with ideas, which is not the case, and is thus ego.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I would agree that we haven't really seen martial applications from the Mistborn books, but with Twinborn compounders we have individuals who can have near unlimited power in limited uses. Miles could likely out heal even 5th ideal radiants and was all but immortal with regard to damage and injury. TLR is the only other compounder we have seen and he could heal from almost anything and was 1,000 years old. If he had compounded more metals he really could have been invincible, but he didn't. Even regular twins can have enormous potential power depending on what the goal is.

Compounder do not have near infinate investiture, they have the ability to store investiture and use it later, they don't have any more raw power than any other allomancer.

TRL lied about his healing powers.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

One thing I discovered over the weekend was that any sufficient amount of investiture will create a perpendicularity so since compounders can have nearly unlimited investiture in their metal art each and everyone has the potential to create a perpendicularity regardless what metal art they use. So much for using transportation to escape to the cognitive realm and Metal arts work everywhere in the Cosmere. I could see a Zinc or Brass compounder crush a Radiant in the Cognitive realm with emotional Allomancy since the Radiant would be without their plate to shield them. Brass compounders might want to be careful since they might incinerate before the perpendicularity opens, unless they have some way to direct the heat away from them. notice the link to Frustration.

Thanks for the reference.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

And even without plate they still have stormlight which will insulate them, and they have a base level of investiture just natuarally.

And on top of that only the most volitile of Radiants, and probably with an exceptionally good soother/Rioter would you get the results you want.

And I'm assuming that last bit is an insult.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Frustration

LeftImBorn · April 24, 2021

So, i glanced in here thinking it'd be nice to have some discussions about Scad v. Roshar, but woah, this convo seems really heated. So, i'll try and start something new-roshar and scad are obviously the obvious powerhouses in the cosmere, but per this wob, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8618) Sel is a third powerhouse. So, i don't think either side will win-rather, it will be a stalemate, where if roshar or scad try to destroy each other, sel will simply destroy the winner, or some other situation.

What are your thoughts on Sel in space age cosmere?

Frustration · April 24, 2021

1 minute ago, LeftImBorn said:

So, i glanced in here thinking it'd be nice to have some discussions about Scad v. Roshar, but woah, this convo seems really heated. So, i'll try and start something new-roshar and scad are obviously the obvious powerhouses in the cosmere, but per this wob, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8618) Sel is a third powerhouse. So, i don't think either side will win-rather, it will be a stalemate, where if roshar or scad try to destroy each other, sel will simply destroy the winner, or some other situation.

What are your thoughts on Sel in space age cosmere?

Sel has been intentionally left out of this equation, but there are other threads where it is more fit.

**LewsTherinTelescope** · April 24, 2021

Just now, LeftImBorn said:

So, i glanced in here thinking it'd be nice to have some discussions about Scad v. Roshar, but woah, this convo seems really heated. So, i'll try and start something new-roshar and scad are obviously the obvious powerhouses in the cosmere, but per this wob, (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8618) Sel is a third powerhouse. So, i don't think either side will win-rather, it will be a stalemate, where if roshar or scad try to destroy each other, sel will simply destroy the winner, or some other situation.

What are your thoughts on Sel in space age cosmere?

Yeah, I'd expect any war to a.) have major risk to both planets because angry Shards are no laughing matter, b.) Sel will probably beat the crap out of the winner (apparently Connection medallions are enough but are the more difficult method, so they should be able to do this by then), and c.) who knows where the aethers are in all this (we know aethers will be very important but the planet less so).

And who even knows what's up with the Bavatars...

Though this thread's probably intentionally ignored it for the sake of a hypothetical. But then, this hypothetical has been really not working well for discussion recently, so maybe moving to a related but different topic like this would be a good idea, lol.

BenduLuke · April 24, 2021

20 hours ago, therunner said:

Anti-investiture is general, just as tones are. So even Scadrians are susceptible to it, altough since they contain such investiture only when burning/tapping/storing they are susceptible shorter amounts of time.

So,

Scadrians are no more invested than other humans in Cosmere. In fact Nalthians are more invested. Scadrian when burning metals/tapping becomes more invested for the duration of the burn/tap, but even then they are less invested than Radiant with Stormlight.

Birth rates of both ferring and misting have become saturated per WoBs, i.e. their incidence in population will not continue to grow.

Metal is not key for Scadrians innate investiture, just a key to access Preservation/Harmonies investiture from spiritual realm (analogy to Sel, metal=Aon, Preservation investiture=Dor)

Being broken is prerequisite even for metalic arts (see snapping). Also protagonists of SA are bit of outliers, compare Kaladin with Lopen.

Radiants become increasingly better at holding light as they progress.

We have seen very little of shardplate so far, but in principle Radiant might be able to deny it healing for a short while.

For anti-stormlight grenades you would first need a way to produce light, which Scadrians do not have.

I think for resistence against heat based attacks Brass ferring would suffice, they could simply store excess heat, no need for compounding.

Iron compounder would be just as affected by gravitation as anyone else, all the doubling of their mass would do is that the lashing would wear off faster (gravitational acceleration upon object does not depend on the objects mass). Cohesion however would be deadly for him, just make the ground less cohesive and watch him fall, there their weight would work against them. You mistook Cohesion and Abrasion.

You do not need compounders to attack fabrials, ordinary steel and iron would do. However, you would first have to get close enough to fabrial so that you can push/pull, and Roshar has suppressor fabrials.

Pewter compounders are also limited in how much they can tap if they want to remain mobile, so far from near limitless. Even Sazed reached mobility limit of pewter.

Iron compounder, maybe.

Steel compounder definitely not before wind resistance and friction become issue. Marasis Mach 10 movement is far beyond where both friction and compression become issues, and there was no perpendicularity there.

In general I think the issue with compounders and perpendicularity is that you attach such to a feat (become stellar object/move at some speed), however since tapping is unlimited even ordinary Feruchemsit can reach such feats even if only for a short time. What you need is large amount of stored attribute inside the metalmind to form perpendicularity (or tap all that attribute at once), and since even BoM are less invested than shardblades (not to mention Nightblood, who does not seem to be perpendicularity) this means that even for compounders this is a very difficult goal. Possible in principle, but not very realistic.

I think this is uncalled for, both the snark and personal attacks.

While in principle compounder could get enough investiture to create perpendicularity, I think it is telling that we have seen none do so, i.e. it is technically possible, but that does not make it realistic. Per WoBs soulcasting can destroy shardplates (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6254), but it does not make sense to assume that any Radiant with Transformation could simply soulcast away metalminds as it would require inordinate amount of power (however still far less than soulcasting shardplate).

Also, neither zinc nor brass compounder would 'crush' Radiant in Cognitive Realm, Radiant would still presumably have stormlight in them which should provide at least some protective effects and emotional allomancy alone will not give compoounder advantage. Also Radiant will still have their surges and are physically enhanced by stormlight.

From what I have read Scadrians are innately invested and metal unlocks that investiture. Rosharans are not innately invested and Spren are the key to open their investiture which is then powered by Light (storm, void, life).

Though it might be speculated that all forms of investiture may have an anti form it has not been confirmed and all of you seemed very offended when I speculated so for now my point stands that only Rosharans are confirmed to be affected by anti-investiture.

I also read in the WoB's that metal arts will become more prevalent on Scadrial within the population, and have hit roughly their baseline power level during alloy period.

Snapping was required for Era 1 mistborn, but I am not sure during Era 2 I think it has changed.

Yeah Radiants become increasingly more efficient with stormlight, but are still inefficiant containers of it even so. Scadrians also become increasingly more proficient with their power as well, but are not restrained on how powerful they can become or how they use those powers by oaths.

Again you are speculating on Shardplate. Dead plate leaks and does not heal eventually shattering. Presumably living plate heals, but requires stormlight to do so. Like when Kal was fighting with a shardhelmet on his hand his stormlight healed it until it ran out.

Scadrians can't yet produce light, but it is only a matter of time before they have lasers using science. With the right tuning they could kill permanently any Rosharan spren.

Your right that you only need to be a brass fering to be resistant to heat based attacks, but with compounding they could have access to perpendicularities (Near infinite investiture can do that even if it does take the form of heat) and would make it more convenient to operate in a wider range of environments especially sub-zero.

More massive objects require more stromlight to lash. Once lashed a sufficient increase in weight would counter the lashing. No additional weight would affect both adhesion and cohesion.

Iron and steel compounders would have potentially much more range so no you don't need them but they would be more effective both in range and scale. Again compounding also potentially gives access to perpendicularities taking away some potential Rosharan advantages.

Pewter compounders would definitely want to use very flexible clothing, but with enough ferichemical strength they would be massive and a single strike would be devastating to almost anyone. They might rival great shells for size. You are right that they would give up maneuverability for shear power. Nearly a limitless supply of strength in both magnitude and or duration. They could match and or exceed shardbearer level strength. Most people (execept Dalinar) have been shown to be relatively clumsy in plate, so they also give up a degree of maneuverability for power.

At what speed and duration is wind resistance or air friction dangerous to health? Experiments show it is greater than Mach 1. In addition Steel speed also enhances steel burn rates potentially so much that steel pushes are greater than those achieved by Duralumin Steel pushes. That means armor piercing metal projectiles against targets even when the metal is relatively soft. Air friction would actually help with those projectiles since they could potentially be very hot as well.

Compounding allows for the near infinite shard infusion of Feruchemical powers giving both much greater achievable magnitude and duration. Compounders have nearly unlimited potential in at least one ability. Feruchemy alone is always limited by how much and how long a person stores. Wax stores at about 25% whenever he is awake so 20 kg/hr for 16 hours so he can tap 20 kg/hr for 16 hours or compress it to approximately 40 kg/hr for 6 hours. A compounder could store 20 kg in 1 hours and turn that into being able to tap 200 kg for the next hour or 20 kg for the next 10 hours or some combination like 100 kg for 5 hours without loss. Compound again and the magnitude or amount of time is 10 times more. It wont take long before he can be whatever weight he wants to for any length of time and he would reap the benefits of the greater weight on his allomancy. But Wax can't actually do that since he is a Steel allomancer so is limited to storing only his own weight.

We have only seen one compounder and he was always using his to heal from extreme wounds. TLR was one as well but he mostly compounded Atium for extended life and was probably already able to create a perpendicularity at will since he was a splinter. What you really need to ask is if he could have indefinitely delayed Ruin and Filling the well of Assention by using more metal arts.

I was implying that Brass and Zinc might be particularly effective against Radiants since most we have seen are broken and vulnerable to emotional distress. Even stormlight doesn't seem to be enough to protect them fully. You only need to incapacitate the Radiant long enough inflict critical injuries or bind them.

I notice that you both missed the wink in my comment about imagination, but what was I suppose to think. There were no new ideas coming out on a topic that has barely been scratched. It was Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic not Radiants vs Allomancers. there are literally thousands of possible combinations of powers and resonances for metal arts and hundreds of possible variations of Rosharan surges, but all you seem to be saying is Radiants can heal well and have highly effective armor and weapons oh and some radiants can fly. Yes there has been some little discussion of rock walls, and soulcasting, but so much left ignored. There are regals which can pop up out of the ground to attack their enemy, and both Radiants and Regals who can immitate nearly anyone to get the drop on their target. Slick a boulder and have it slide down the hill at your target. This is what I mean by no imagination. You all (not literal) seem to say to me that can't be done but never really present potentially amazing possible confrontations involving all the powers incredible potential. So I tease, embarrass, prod, cajole, use sarcasm and facts, I even use sources though even that gets ridiculed. What do you want?

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Nalthis is a powerhouse though, esspecially if type IV commands got out,

And The Aether world will be a player

1. I was refering to using stormlight to function

2.A Normal person with a hammer is only enough after several minutes of beating.

You know in the debate community it's seen as a sign that you're losing when you start attacking the other person instead of their argument.

And Several people disagree with me and where not "scared off" if you think that you have a really low opinion of them. @Bzhydack @Enter a username and even people like @The Technovore and @Bigmikey357 and others disagree with me, but we've had pleasant conversation and debate over various points, what set's you apart is that you argue with baseless speculation and I feel the need to correct you.

And by now the discussion should be over threads do not normally last at this activity level for this long.

That WoB says nothing about commpounders this Wob

Reveal hidden contents

TheFulgid

Could you Invest... Could you use a nicrosil metalmind to Invest the sort of Investiture enough that you could open a Perpendicularity up to the Cognitive Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'll just say it this way. Enough concentrated Investiture in one point is going to pierce the Realms, no matter what form it takes.

TheFulgid

...So, it doesn't have to be a nicrosil metalmind.

Brandon Sanderson

No.

TheFulgid

Okay... But it could be?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That is theoretically possible.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

Would have helpped you case better, but that's besides the point being a comppounder is irrelivent, Dalinar isn't a commpounder but he has a perpendicualrity on speedial, Jasnah and other Elsecallers and Willshapers can make them, but they can't compound. Marasi tapped everything in the Bands at once, and depleted it at an increadible rate but she didn't cause a perpendicularity(though she might have been close) and that was a creation of a Fullborn, metalminds so full they were indistinguishable from aluminum, that isn't something that will be made every other year on Scandrial.

You assume that you are the only one here with ideas, which is not the case, and is thus ego.

Compounder do not have near infinate investiture, they have the ability to store investiture and use it later, they don't have any more raw power than any other allomancer.

TRL lied about his healing powers.

Transportation is a lot easier than most other meathods, and Brandon says making a perpendicularity requires litteral tons of investiture, that is something along the lines of years of compounding burnt away in an instant, which is so inneficeint it would be better to just give up on the CR entirly.

Hide contents

Questioner

Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Questioner

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--

Questioner

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I'm referencing?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn't see a Pool from?

Questioner

Oh wait--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

Questioner 2

Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

And even without plate they still have stormlight which will insulate them, and they have a base level of investiture just natuarally.

And on top of that only the most volitile of Radiants, and probably with an exceptionally good soother/Rioter would you get the results you want.

And I'm assuming that last bit is an insult.

Sel if they could overcome their location limit would be a major player, just like Roshar will be once they overcome their planet bond restriction.

If the Radiant is out of stormlight they probably have no plate, and dead plate out of stormlight does stop functioning. So enough damage removes any plate.

Yes but if a normal person can damage plate someone with metal arts has even more potential to do so, just not all in the same way.

You mean like you have been attacking me from the beginning? Or at least that is how it has seemed to me since the beginning. Only recently have I pushed back at you. You like to critique ideas but from my perspective don't have many of your own.

My speculation has never been baseless and when one of you has actually shown me something that I feel reasonably proves me wrong I have admitted it. Just because you disagree with my source doesn't make my statement baseless. You like to use the word baseless when you disagree not because it is a fact. You may notice that I have been much less abrasive to those you mentioned than to you and there is a reason for that though toward the end your name proved true for me and I became more impatient with them as well. Even so I have seen you be equally dismissive of their argument until they didn't think it worth the effort to continue to argue with you.

It is not really over because there is still much more to discuss within the topic as I stated. If you didn't think so why did you respond to my post? If you thought it was all discussed you should have ignored my post, but you didn't why is that?

No compounders by definition have near limitless potential for investiture in at least one thing so the WoB didn't need to mention them. Other WoB's have mentioned compounding and Perpendicularities.

There are so many other parts and powers to both systems that this thread has ignored that it is mind blowing that you could think this topic has been exhausted. By the way the coppermind appears to be the current distillation of the many and varied WoB's so dismissing it seems disingenuous of you when it contradicts what you think.

Frustration · April 24, 2021

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

From what I have read Scadrians are innately invested and metal unlocks that investiture. Rosharans are not innately invested and Spren are the key to open their investiture which is then powered by Light (storm, void, life).

Scadrian powers come from the SR, not themselves

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

How does compounding work in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

Alloy of Law Milton Keynes signing (Nov. 21, 2011)

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Though it might be speculated that all forms of investiture may have an anti form it has not been confirmed and all of you seemed very offended when I speculated so for now my point stands that only Rosharans are confirmed to be affected by anti-investiture.

That's like saying only Hydrogen is affected by anti-matter.

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrians can't yet produce light, but it is only a matter of time before they have lasers using science. With the right tuning they could kill permanently any Rosharan spren.

What gives you the idea that lasers would let them kill spren?

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I was implying that Brass and Zinc might be particularly effective against Radiants since most we have seen are broken and vulnerable to emotional distress. Even stormlight doesn't seem to be enough to protect them fully. You only need to incapacitate the Radiant long enough inflict critical injuries or bind them.

Magical emotional manipulation hasn't been seen used againt them, and again Kaladin and Shallan are the exception, not the norm.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I notice that you both missed the wink in my comment about imagination, but what was I suppose to think. There were no new ideas coming out on a topic that has barely been scratched. It was Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic not Radiants vs Allomancers. there are literally thousands of possible combinations of powers and resonances for metal arts and hundreds of possible variations of Rosharan surges, but all you seem to be saying is Radiants can heal well and have highly effective armor and weapons oh and some radiants can fly. Yes there has been some little discussion of rock walls, and soulcasting, but so much left ignored. There are regals which can pop up out of the ground to attack their enemy, and both Radiants and Regals who can immitate nearly anyone to get the drop on their target. Slick a boulder and have it slide down the hill at your target. This is what I mean by no imagination. You all (not literal) seem to say to me that can't be done but never really present potentially amazing possible confrontations involving all the powers incredible potential. So I tease, embarrass, prod, cajole, use sarcasm and facts, I even use sources though even that gets ridiculed. What do you want?

Sources that actually say the same thing you do instead of talking about the same general topic and some practicallity.

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If the Radiant is out of stormlight they probably have no plate, and dead plate out of stormlight does stop functioning. So enough damage removes any plate.

Deadblades wihtout gems can't be dismissed, why would live plate without stormlight stop functioning?

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes but if a normal person can damage plate someone with metal arts has even more potential to do so, just not all in the same way.

Getting close enough to hit them is a death sentence.

14 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You mean like you have been attacking me from the beginning? Or at least that is how it has seemed to me since the beginning. Only recently have I pushed back at you. You like to critique ideas but from my perspective don't have many of your own.

If you think what you've seen thus far has been an attack you are missing a lot of perspective that is nothing. I've given you ideas, but you "didn't see the point"

17 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

My speculation has never been baseless and when one of you has actually shown me something that I feel reasonably proves me wrong I have admitted it.

When?

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Even so I have seen you be equally dismissive of their argument until they didn't think it worth the effort to continue to argue with you.

@Enter a username is this an accurate discription of what hppened?

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is not really over because there is still much more to discuss within the topic as I stated. If you didn't think so why did you respond to my post? If you thought it was all discussed you should have ignored my post, but you didn't why is that?

The thread needs to die, not because there isn't more to discuss, but that the discussion has gone on too long.

22 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

No compounders by definition have near limitless potential for investiture in at least one thing so the WoB didn't need to mention them. Other WoB's have mentioned compounding and Perpendicularities.

Do you have those? becasue I can't find them.

31 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

There are so many other parts and powers to both systems that this thread has ignored that it is mind blowing that you could think this topic has been exhausted. By the way the coppermind appears to be the current distillation of the many and varied WoB's so dismissing it seems disingenuous of you when it contradicts what you think.

The coppermind is like Wikipedia, anything listed should have a source attached to it, if there is no source, or if the source doesn't say what is written in the article then it is baseless, there is a reason we have an entire topic just dedicated to correcting the Coppermind.

therunner · April 24, 2021

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

From what I have read Scadrians are innately invested and metal unlocks that investiture. Rosharans are not innately invested and Spren are the key to open their investiture which is then powered by Light (storm, void, life).

While they are innately invested, so are Rosharans (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6881), and both are less than Nalthians (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3458). Metal is used as conduit to spiritual realm and allomancy is fueled by Preservation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7708 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8028), not to unlock 'innate investiture' of Scadrians. Now all metallic arts are powered by Harmony, although in Feruchemy the role is mainly as facilitator of transfer.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Though it might be speculated that all forms of investiture may have an anti form it has not been confirmed and all of you seemed very offended when I speculated so for now my point stands that only Rosharans are confirmed to be affected by anti-investiture.

Since anti-light is just particular form of anti-investiture, it is quite clear that investiture of other Shards will be susceptible to same attack vector, altought manufacturing process might differ. Also this WoB suggests that anti-investiture will play a large role in future of Cosmere (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) which would not make much sense if it was so Shard specific as you suggest.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I also read in the WoB's that metal arts will become more prevalent on Scadrial within the population, and have hit roughly their baseline power level during alloy period.

It seems I mixed up WoBs on weakening of allomancy (which satures by Era 3 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10873) together with WoB on frequency of births (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882). I was unable to find anything that would suggest that allomancy/feruchemy will continue to become more prevalent however, would you mind linking that WoB?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Snapping was required for Era 1 mistborn, but I am not sure during Era 2 I think it has changed.

It still happens, but Sazed changed it somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198/#e4242). We have no other info as far as I know.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah Radiants become increasingly more efficient with stormlight, but are still inefficiant containers of it even so. Scadrians also become increasingly more proficient with their power as well, but are not restrained on how powerful they can become or how they use those powers by oaths.

Radiant on 3rd Oath flew across entire continent just with the light they could carry, that is not too bad. Add in two more oaths + Plate catching leftovers and you have quite efficient system.

Scadrians are not restricted by Oaths true, they are instead restricted by their inborn potential (unless we resort to Hemalurgy, but you cannot add more than 2 spikes without opening yourself up to shardic influence). Each subsequent generation of allomancer (and possibly feruchemists as well) is weaker than the one before up until some saturation level. You might breed some to be more powerful (Vin was one such example), but vast majority will be weaker than any Misting seen in Era 1.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Again you are speculating on Shardplate. Dead plate leaks and does not heal eventually shattering. Presumably living plate heals, but requires stormlight to do so. Like when Kal was fighting with a shardhelmet on his hand his stormlight healed it until it ran out.

Dead plate heals, that is why it is sucking up stormlight so fast. In deadplate light is needed to both maintain basic function and to heal damaged sections.

Living plate also heals (seen in Jasnah chapter in RoW), and seemingly either does not require stormlight to operate or requires tiny amounts (again Jasnah chapter in RoW). It would make sense to me if Radiant could deny light to plate, as they are in control of it, but we have not seen such yet.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrians can't yet produce light, but it is only a matter of time before they have lasers using science. With the right tuning they could kill permanently any Rosharan spren.

So, light =/= light. Stormlight/Voidlight/Towerlight/Lifelight are all gaseous manifastations of investiture, not actual photons of light. Lasers will not help Scadrians at all in this, laser are just ordinary bunch of photons, not pure shardic investiture. If lasers/normal light could work that way then Lightweavers/Truthwatchers can provide Stormlight on demand, which they clearly cannot.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Your right that you only need to be a brass fering to be resistant to heat based attacks, but with compounding they could have access to perpendicularities (Near infinite investiture can do that even if it does take the form of heat) and would make it more convenient to operate in a wider range of environments especially sub-zero.

I still doubt feasibility of even compounder actually forming perpendicularity, no feats of compounding come even close to that.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

More massive objects require more stromlight to lash. Once lashed a sufficient increase in weight would counter the lashing. No additional weight would affect both adhesion and cohesion.

It would not counter the lashing, it would just make it deplete faster. I guess you could call that countering, but to me counter implies something which negates it, not something that just makes it go away faster.

I do not understand what you meant by your second sentence.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Iron and steel compounders would have potentially much more range so no you don't need them but they would be more effective both in range and scale. Again compounding also potentially gives access to perpendicularities taking away some potential Rosharan advantages.

Why would they have more range? Their allomantic power is still the same, ergo their range is still the same. Again I doubt that actually making a perpendicularity is feasible for compounder outside of theory. Even if they could do it, it would be a trick they could use only a few times before running out of stores, since compounding takes time.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Pewter compounders would definitely want to use very flexible clothing, but with enough ferichemical strength they would be massive and a single strike would be devastating to almost anyone. They might rival great shells for size. You are right that they would give up maneuverability for shear power. Nearly a limitless supply of strength in both magnitude and or duration. They could match and or exceed shardbearer level strength. Most people (execept Dalinar) have been shown to be relatively clumsy in plate, so they also give up a degree of maneuverability for power.

No. Sazed when tapping so much f-pewter that per his words he was worried about his skin splitting open and stated he would be unable to walk (WoA), had trouble overpowering one 11 feet tall Koloss. So no rivaling greatshells for them, that is complete fantasy, and also no unmatched strength. While they probably could match shardplate strength, they would be slower and more cumbersome + big target for shardblade.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

At what speed and duration is wind resistance or air friction dangerous to health? Experiments show it is greater than Mach 1. In addition Steel speed also enhances steel burn rates potentially so much that steel pushes are greater than those achieved by Duralumin Steel pushes. That means armor piercing metal projectiles against targets even when the metal is relatively soft. Air friction would actually help with those projectiles since they could potentially be very hot as well.

At Mach 0.6 neck muscles are not strong enough to keep your head straight, so yeah it is less than Mach 1. Air friction/compression starts becoming problematic around Mach 1 though, I would estimate, just due to adiabtic heating.

Steel speed enhancing steel pushes is your conjecture, one I disagree with. I already wrote this beforehand, but to summarize, Brandon compares F-Steel burn rate to Bendalloy bubble (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), however people pushing from inside the bubble are not stronger than usual, ergo F-steel would not make your pushes stronger.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

We have only seen one compounder and he was always using his to heal from extreme wounds. TLR was one as well but he mostly compounded Atium for extended life and was probably already able to create a perpendicularity at will since he was a splinter. What you really need to ask is if he could have indefinitely delayed Ruin and Filling the well of Assention by using more metal arts.

And the wounds he healed (EDIT: Short of decapitation) are well withing scope of stormlight healing, so not really that insane feats. There is no evidence that TLR could open up perpendicularity, and he was not a splinter, he was a sliver. And being sliver means he had power once, but now no longer has it.

He could have stayed Ruin possibly for another millenium, but he could not fill well of ascension that was far beyond his abilities even though he is Fullborn.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I was implying that Brass and Zinc might be particularly effective against Radiants since most we have seen are broken and vulnerable to emotional distress. Even stormlight doesn't seem to be enough to protect them fully. You only need to incapacitate the Radiant long enough inflict critical injuries or bind them.

They are no more broken than Vin was, or Zane.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes but if a normal person can damage plate someone with metal arts has even more potential to do so, just not all in the same way.

That is not particularly useful statement. I can easily turn it around: 'Since normal person can kill mistborn, or any metalborn without f-gold, Radiant will have even easier time doing so.' It is true, but far too reductive a statement.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I notice that you both missed the wink in my comment about imagination, but what was I suppose to think. There were no new ideas coming out on a topic that has barely been scratched. It was Rosharan magic vs Scadrian magic not Radiants vs Allomancers. there are literally thousands of possible combinations of powers and resonances for metal arts and hundreds of possible variations of Rosharan surges, but all you seem to be saying is Radiants can heal well and have highly effective armor and weapons oh and some radiants can fly. Yes there has been some little discussion of rock walls, and soulcasting, but so much left ignored. There are regals which can pop up out of the ground to attack their enemy, and both Radiants and Regals who can immitate nearly anyone to get the drop on their target. Slick a boulder and have it slide down the hill at your target. This is what I mean by no imagination. You all (not literal) seem to say to me that can't be done but never really present potentially amazing possible confrontations involving all the powers incredible potential. So I tease, embarrass, prod, cajole, use sarcasm and facts, I even use sources though even that gets ridiculed. What do you want?

Well you previously made similarly insulting comments, so I simply took this one at face value.

If we stay with Feruchemy and Allomancy, than outside of few compounders most combinations are useless, ordinary Mistborn (without atium) will more often than not lose to Windrunner on 3rd oath in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854), most Twinborns (pretty much all outside of steeltwins, or generally those with F-steel and some with F-gold) are strictly worse combatants than mistborn. Hence most Twinborn are going to lose against even midling Radiant. Simply put, without F-steel they cannot avoid getting hit, and without F-gold they cannot heal. Then you can start giving them guns to even the odds, but they still need a way to either move faster or avoid Radiant's attacks or they are dead.

While I did not bring up those Fused and regals you mention, I did bring up both Stormform and Warform parshendi in my reply to Publius. I also went though all Radiants and tried to see how they could use their specific surges against mistborn. You reacted to neither of those.

For starters it would be nice if you could stop presenting yourself as this lone voice of dissent trying to shake up complacent thread contributors to action. Second, instead of mention you saw WoB, link it please.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

My speculation has never been baseless and when one of you has actually shown me something that I feel reasonably proves me wrong I have admitted it. Just because you disagree with my source doesn't make my statement baseless. You like to use the word baseless when you disagree not because it is a fact. You may notice that I have been much less abrasive to those you mentioned than to you and there is a reason for that though toward the end your name proved true for me and I became more impatient with them as well. Even so I have seen you be equally dismissive of their argument until they didn't think it worth the effort to continue to argue with you.

That aluminum is (Bondsmithing+Hemalurgy)x9000 speculation is quite baseless, or splitting abilities of A-pewter into different nicrosilminds. That F-steel increases strength of steelpushes due to increase in mass was also quite baseless, and I do not think you actually admitted you were wrong on physics of that, you just stopped talking about it (around page 42.

You also made many other mistakes (light (investiture) =\= light (photons), burning=\= allomantic burning, changing names of Surges, aluminum negating investiture when physically burning etc.) so it can be a bit difficult to recognize a valid point.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

By the way the coppermind appears to be the current distillation of the many and varied WoB's so dismissing it seems disingenuous of you when it contradicts what you think.

Coppermind is still a secondary source, and since primary sources (books, WoBs on arcanum https://wob.coppermind.net/) can be checked, in case of WoB quite easily it is far better to use that than coppermind.

Edited April 24, 2021 by therunner

BenduLuke · April 27, 2021

On 4/24/2021 at 4:05 PM, therunner said:

While they are innately invested, so are Rosharans (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224/#e6881), and both are less than Nalthians (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3458). Metal is used as conduit to spiritual realm and allomancy is fueled by Preservation (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7708 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e8028), not to unlock 'innate investiture' of Scadrians. Now all metallic arts are powered by Harmony, although in Feruchemy the role is mainly as facilitator of transfer.

Since anti-light is just particular form of anti-investiture, it is quite clear that investiture of other Shards will be susceptible to same attack vector, altought manufacturing process might differ. Also this WoB suggests that anti-investiture will play a large role in future of Cosmere (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) which would not make much sense if it was so Shard specific as you suggest.

It seems I mixed up WoBs on weakening of allomancy (which satures by Era 3 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10873) together with WoB on frequency of births (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882). I was unable to find anything that would suggest that allomancy/feruchemy will continue to become more prevalent however, would you mind linking that WoB?

It still happens, but Sazed changed it somehow (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/198/#e4242). We have no other info as far as I know.

Radiant on 3rd Oath flew across entire continent just with the light they could carry, that is not too bad. Add in two more oaths + Plate catching leftovers and you have quite efficient system.

Scadrians are not restricted by Oaths true, they are instead restricted by their inborn potential (unless we resort to Hemalurgy, but you cannot add more than 2 spikes without opening yourself up to shardic influence). Each subsequent generation of allomancer (and possibly feruchemists as well) is weaker than the one before up until some saturation level. You might breed some to be more powerful (Vin was one such example), but vast majority will be weaker than any Misting seen in Era 1.

Dead plate heals, that is why it is sucking up stormlight so fast. In deadplate light is needed to both maintain basic function and to heal damaged sections.

Living plate also heals (seen in Jasnah chapter in RoW), and seemingly either does not require stormlight to operate or requires tiny amounts (again Jasnah chapter in RoW). It would make sense to me if Radiant could deny light to plate, as they are in control of it, but we have not seen such yet.

So, light =/= light. Stormlight/Voidlight/Towerlight/Lifelight are all gaseous manifastations of investiture, not actual photons of light. Lasers will not help Scadrians at all in this, laser are just ordinary bunch of photons, not pure shardic investiture. If lasers/normal light could work that way then Lightweavers/Truthwatchers can provide Stormlight on demand, which they clearly cannot.

I still doubt feasibility of even compounder actually forming perpendicularity, no feats of compounding come even close to that.

It would not counter the lashing, it would just make it deplete faster. I guess you could call that countering, but to me counter implies something which negates it, not something that just makes it go away faster.

I do not understand what you meant by your second sentence.

Why would they have more range? Their allomantic power is still the same, ergo their range is still the same. Again I doubt that actually making a perpendicularity is feasible for compounder outside of theory. Even if they could do it, it would be a trick they could use only a few times before running out of stores, since compounding takes time.

No. Sazed when tapping so much f-pewter that per his words he was worried about his skin splitting open and stated he would be unable to walk (WoA), had trouble overpowering one 11 feet tall Koloss. So no rivaling greatshells for them, that is complete fantasy, and also no unmatched strength. While they probably could match shardplate strength, they would be slower and more cumbersome + big target for shardblade.

At Mach 0.6 neck muscles are not strong enough to keep your head straight, so yeah it is less than Mach 1. Air friction/compression starts becoming problematic around Mach 1 though, I would estimate, just due to adiabtic heating.

Steel speed enhancing steel pushes is your conjecture, one I disagree with. I already wrote this beforehand, but to summarize, Brandon compares F-Steel burn rate to Bendalloy bubble (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), however people pushing from inside the bubble are not stronger than usual, ergo F-steel would not make your pushes stronger.

And the wounds he healed (EDIT: Short of decapitation) are well withing scope of stormlight healing, so not really that insane feats. There is no evidence that TLR could open up perpendicularity, and he was not a splinter, he was a sliver. And being sliver means he had power once, but now no longer has it.

He could have stayed Ruin possibly for another millenium, but he could not fill well of ascension that was far beyond his abilities even though he is Fullborn.

They are no more broken than Vin was, or Zane.

That is not particularly useful statement. I can easily turn it around: 'Since normal person can kill mistborn, or any metalborn without f-gold, Radiant will have even easier time doing so.' It is true, but far too reductive a statement.

Well you previously made similarly insulting comments, so I simply took this one at face value.

If we stay with Feruchemy and Allomancy, than outside of few compounders most combinations are useless, ordinary Mistborn (without atium) will more often than not lose to Windrunner on 3rd oath in open battle (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e1432 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e5018 , https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4854), most Twinborns (pretty much all outside of steeltwins, or generally those with F-steel and some with F-gold) are strictly worse combatants than mistborn. Hence most Twinborn are going to lose against even midling Radiant. Simply put, without F-steel they cannot avoid getting hit, and without F-gold they cannot heal. Then you can start giving them guns to even the odds, but they still need a way to either move faster or avoid Radiant's attacks or they are dead.

While I did not bring up those Fused and regals you mention, I did bring up both Stormform and Warform parshendi in my reply to Publius. I also went though all Radiants and tried to see how they could use their specific surges against mistborn. You reacted to neither of those.

For starters it would be nice if you could stop presenting yourself as this lone voice of dissent trying to shake up complacent thread contributors to action. Second, instead of mention you saw WoB, link it please.

That aluminum is (Bondsmithing+Hemalurgy)x9000 speculation is quite baseless, or splitting abilities of A-pewter into different nicrosilminds. That F-steel increases strength of steelpushes due to increase in mass was also quite baseless, and I do not think you actually admitted you were wrong on physics of that, you just stopped talking about it (around page 42.

You also made many other mistakes (light (investiture) =\= light (photons), burning=\= allomantic burning, changing names of Surges, aluminum negating investiture when physically burning etc.) so it can be a bit difficult to recognize a valid point.

Coppermind is still a secondary source, and since primary sources (books, WoBs on arcanum https://wob.coppermind.net/) can be checked, in case of WoB quite easily it is far better to use that than coppermind.

Let me say first thanks for your patience.

Your right there are degrees of investiture and everyone has some degree at least so far as the spark of life. Metal opens the innate investiture beyond the spark of life for Scadrians after snapping, though as you noticed it seems to have changed Era 2, and Rosharan's connect to more than spark of life investiture by bonding a spren connecting to the Shard in specific ways.

Anti-Investiture in any other form except Roshar has not been confirmed and In the WoB you linked Brandon said one of the reasons for making Anti-Light was to balance the scales and give permanent death to Rosharan's specifically. With the right frequency and the right rythm anyone can create the anti-light even scientifically. It still obeys the laws of waves.

I don't remember and couldn't find what I read about increased population of metalborn or the increased buring of steel. I found them while investigating one of the responses to my posts. The steel burning faster was in a trivia section I think and it is possible it has since been edited out. Though it might have been from one of the hundreds of WoB's I have read since entering this thread.

Presuming, even though I can't find it right now, that a Steel compounder twin can burn Steel faster as one of the side benefits they would have more power which would manifest as potentially more range of both sense and affect, and Iron compounder because their power is linked with their weight they also will have more potential power available for increased range and obviously need less of an anchor to do more. In both cases the majority of power would at some point go toward increased duration at relatively high force. I really don't want to argue how fast a Steel compounder could run beyond very fast or and how heavy an Iron compounder could be beyond extremely heavy both for very extended periods when necessary.

Compounders by the nature of their nearly unlimited investiture have the potential to create perpendicularities, but as Brandon said it would take very extreme investiture to accomplish this and would probably require intent. Since We have barely seen compounders and at least one example didn't even know what a perpendicularity was or that it was a possiblility that easily explains why it hasn't been accomplished to our knowledge so far. Neither modern allomancy or feruchemy alone has this potential.

I think from what I have read that mistings and ferings are the saturation level with more power when combined to twin and ultimate as compounders going forward.

A single lashing for 100kg person would be a half lash for a 200kg person so if a person could control their weight near infinitely they could counter any amount of Lashing. Cohesion and Adhesion would also be affected by weight changes though not as obviously as Lashings.

I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate.

Vin never thought of trying emotional allomancy on Zane even though it might have worked. Look what happened to the people when TLR came out. Emotional allomance could be a very powerful weapon if used correctly. It just isn't one people think about for combat. It is also less predictable than a physical attack.

There are hundreds of WoB's that i have seen and researched. Generally when someone tells me that they have seen something I take it as fact, Notice I rarely ask for reference, because I know re-finding something can be difficult. Even those links shared by many of your and by me are not interpreted the same by each of us and what one person thinks supports their argument another person doesn't. In the beginning when one of you said this is the way it is I took it as according to what you have read that is your interpretation, but it seems to me as if I haven't been given the same latitude in the super majority of cases. That as much as anything has been frustrating.

I finally read SotD 2 and from my interpretation of the 2 groups I see Scadrian's (the ones above) and Rosharan's (the individual with the seeming ShardLaser) as at a seeming deadlock in their conflict. I get the impression after thinking about it as Orca vs Shark or Wolves vs Bear in terms of contests. It seems that Rosharan's excel at single combat, but may not be a match for the combined talents of Scadrian's. Scadrian abilities may work more effectively in groups and with some exceptions are not good in individual combat, and Rosharans are most effective individually and with some exceptions are not good in groups. Of course It could be that it was an Ire that was in the armor, since we don't know much about them yet and we never saw its face. If it was a Radiant it seems like it was a Skybreaker. The conclusion I draw from this scene from SotD 2 is that Scadrian's and Rosharan's are at a near deadlock in power even if it isn't obvious to most yet.

Frustration · April 28, 2021

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate

If you are refering to alloys those exist, if you mean actual corruption then no.

The Technovore · April 28, 2021

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A single lashing for 100kg person would be a half lash for a 200kg person so if a person could control their weight near infinitely they could counter any amount of Lashing. Cohesion and Adhesion would also be affected by weight changes though not as obviously as Lashings.

I was thinking the TLR might have been able to constantly drain the well of assention and the pits by using more of his investiture. Atium as a God metal could also have been corrupted by other metals to make a whole new set of allomantic metals and binding into usability by Ruin. That was what I meant. Of course could just be another of my more extreme ideas that you guys hate.

Vin never thought of trying emotional allomancy on Zane even though it might have worked. Look what happened to the people when TLR came out. Emotional allomance could be a very powerful weapon if used correctly. It just isn't one people think about for combat. It is also less predictable than a physical attack.

Have an upvote for reading SOTD2 and coming to the same conclusion I did back in... page 34? Haha, if we're paying attention to actual Realmatics and Cosmere Lore, any actual S v R conflict would be a cold war or a stalemate, since without Radiants, Roshar can't expect to launch a successful invasion when the enemy has guns, and a Scadrian offensive would be crushed beneath the boot of Roshar's greater population, Thunderclasts, Fused, and Radiants. This is assuming that the Shards of both planets wouldn't take any actions to change the rules. In the canon lore we have so far, there's no reason to believe that they would. Thus, stalemate. But I digress.

I want to address these three things. Gravity doesn't slow or stop due to fluctuations in weight. In fact the force of gravity increases when an object's mass increases. However, I do believe we know that it takes more stormlight to affect heavier objects with Gravitation, so this speculation isn't far out, although I wouldn't bet money on it. Perhaps an F-Iron user could tap their weight heavily, moving faster as they do but draining the Lashing faster. However, weight would not affect Adhesion, as we know that it functions by fooling the spiritwebs of the two objects into believing they're one object, (I can't find the wob on this, maybe it's from the text of RoW? If someone wants to factcheck me that's fine) until the stormlight runs out. I'm not sure how significant weight change can affect Adhesion, unless you compounded to weigh several tons, then you might break a chunk out of the wall you're stuck to (lol). I'm not fully sure on Cohesion, we haven't see it used on another lifeform, only for stoneshaping and the Internally-focused one the Fused have. I'm not sure I see the connection, I don't think weight would be affecting Cohesion, since that weighs on the question of whether you can affect another body with it. (And if you can, that's kinda gross.)

Yea, this is common knowledge with Godmetals, that each godmetal can be alloyed firstly with any other godmetal, and secondly with any of the base 16 metals. There's a whole thread doing the math on how insane that is for mistborn, assuming they can get access to godmetals and know the appropriate alloy percentages. However, we KNOW that TLR wasn't doing anything to the Well or the Pits, except hiding away the Atium as it was produced, and waiting for the Well to "refill". I don't know that he couldn't do anything with them, perhaps if he had Nicrosil, but, it's heavily implied that he couldn't do anything with the Well until it refilled.

As for spikes and emotional allomancy, you're better off looking at SoS and BoM for the limits on that. Wax's uncle has three spikes in him at all times, and is careful not to place a fourth, otherwise Harmony would be able to take him over. Think about that. The actual Shard of Harmony couldn't touch him without four spikes. Three is a-okay. Bleeder was a-okay with a single spike, Harmony couldn't touch her until she got a second one. (Although I might have that wrong and it was just that Harmony needed a spike that wasn't trellium.) You could say "Oh well, Harmony's intent doesn't let him interfere--" but if it was his Intent that gets in the way, why does it suddenly go away at spike #4, rather than spike #5 or #6, or #1? Kandra are different from humans in that they're more susceptible to control, is a conclusion I'm drawing from this, and the main conclusion is that if the actual Shard of Harmony (or the Shard of Ruin, who had no Intent restrictions and couldn't control Vin or Spook beyond emotional manipulation even when they had a spike in them), then there's no way a lowly Mistborn with Duralumin could accomplish it.

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

wheelbarrow

Stormgate

The Technovore

Posted Images

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

TheFulgid

Brandon Sanderson

TheFulgid

Brandon Sanderson

TheFulgid

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Argent

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner 2

Brandon Sanderson

Questioner 2

Brandon Sanderson

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

TheFulgid

Brandon Sanderson

TheFulgid

Brandon Sanderson

TheFulgid