Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Bejarden]

Huh well I guess I was completely off the mark

[Publius]

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Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Applying this WoB to what you suggest:

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Tapping weight gives you the ability to handle that weight

Ergo

Tapping heat gives you the ability to handel that heat

"you become immune to the effects of the ability only."
Tapping heat would only make you immune to the effects of the heat that you tapped, it is not a magic bullet for solving all heat-related problems from other sources.
The takeaway is that tapping heat won't light you on fire, but it also won't protect you from burning up due to air friction.
"Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard."
Tapping heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with low body temperatures caused by being in a cold environment, as demonstrated in The Bands of Mourning...
Logical inference and this WoB tells us that...
Storing heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with high body temperatures such as those caused by air friction.

Otherwise, our erstwhile heroes in Bands of Mourning would not tap heat to deal with cold environments. They would store heat.
However, we demonstrably observe them tapping heat in order to deal with cold environments.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Publius

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Publius said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Applying this WoB to what you suggest:

"you become immune to the effects of the ability only."
Tapping heat would only make you immune to the effects of the heat that you tapped, it is not a magic bullet for solving all heat-related problems from other sources.
The takeaway is that tapping heat won't light you on fire, but it also won't protect you from burning up due to air friction.
"Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard."
Tapping heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with low body temperatures caused by being in a cold environment, as demonstrated in The Bands of Mourning...
Logical inference and this WoB tells us that...
Storing heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with high body temperatures such as those caused by air friction.

It's brass not bronze first off

Second off if you are hotter than something the heat will leave you not enter.

[The Technovore]

Well also note that Marasi moved like a whole, what, 50 feet while moving hypersonic+ for her brief half-second, right? I don't think that's enough air to get super hot via compression, so Marasi's case probably can't really be used anyway?

 

EDIT: The real problem is that the more we argue about these kinds of details and semantics, the more clear the system inconsistencies get and the less reliable WoBs and books become. What's eventually going to happen is that our modernist philosophy concerning Realmatics is going to break down, causing philosophical chaos in our society as we completely lose faith in concepts like reality and objective truth. All will Tremble in the Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation...

Edited April 12, 2021 by The Technovore

[Publius]

If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

Spoiler

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

As for surviving the effects of air resistance?
F-Brass can deal with heat.
C-Gold can heal, among other things... point-blank dynamite, decapitation, Hemalurgical Spiking, and death (Waxillium). It should have no issue restoring tissue damage from heat, broken bones from air resistance, or whatever else might arise.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Publius

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Publius said:

If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

  Hide contents

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

As for surviving the effects of air resistance?
F-Brass can deal with heat.
C-Gold can heal, among other things... point-blank dynamite, decapitation, Hemalurgical Spiking, and death (Waxillium). It should have no issue restoring tissue damage from heat, broken bones from air resistance, or whatever else might arise.

We can get close to moving matter at the speed of light to but it's not something we can use for transportation.

Edit: it's also possible to soulcast Aluminum into other things

Edited April 12, 2021 by Frustration

[Publius]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We can get close to moving matter at the speed of light to but it's not something we can use for transportation.

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

 

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 3,430 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Publius

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Publius said:

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

 

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 34,300 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

 

the mach 7 was @therunner's estimate not mine

And BoM where created by Kelsier and I don't think they will ever be replicated, At most that is a one time event every couple of years even for Fullborn.

[The Technovore]

Will just add two chips--I'm pretty sure that WoB wasn't taking into account wind resistance i.e. it was assuming a frictionless environment like space. Any other wobs where friction is considered the estimate is far lower. So you can go The Fast in space, in atmosphere it is harder.

Also, the math doesn't say that hypermach speed is impossible. You can reach it. It's just that you can't sustain it for an appreciable amount of time. It drains too quickly due to diminishing returns. Marasi notes that in her very short stint of being The Fast that she was draining The Bands of Mourning at an alarming rate. Compounding is supposed to release at a factor of 10x, right? So if you have a LOT of speed stored (I forget exactly how much) you can either go Mach 10 for a half-second, or Mach 1 for 5 seconds. Mach 1 for 5 seconds can do a lot, with effective resource management it can be lot more, but it means that Steel Compounders can't just ""Fast"" themselves everywhere all the time. 

[therunner]

8 hours ago, Publius said:

The heat and friction are easily solvable.
1. Store heat with F-Brass.
2. As @BenduLuke suggested, wear appropriate protective clothing/armor.

Edit:
Alternative means:
Acknowledge that you might become a human torch while dabbing on the proverbial tortoise-shelled-Rosharan-slowpokes and Heal yourself with F-Gold.

7 hours ago, Publius said:

A & F Pewter strength can help overcome resistance and, as I noted in an edit to my previous post, F-Bronze could assist in avoiding the deleterious effects of heat. F-Gold can also heal from the negative effects thereof.

Finally, WoBs can say anything they like, but Marasi noted absolutely nothing in the way of heating up due to her speed or having to deal with wind resistance. I'll be far more inclined to worry about air friction if it actually makes it into the books when Metallic Artists go fast.

Outside of storing heat you also need to tap breath, otherwise the hyperpressurized and heated air tears you lungs. In theory both of these could be overcome with enough F-Gold, but the issue there is, you still feel the pain, and simultaneously suffocating, being burned alive and torn by the wind would be very painful, dare I say debilitating even. Only gold savants don't feel pain, and that takes years and years of tapping compounded gold.

So you need one of

1. Twin-steel, Twin-gold, A-pewter (F-pewter would not be that useful I think, as it enlarges the muscles, increasing surface area and drag force) so 5 powers. A suitable twinborn with 3 power medallion could have it, but they would be debilitated by pain and would still need very large stores.
2. Twin-steel, Twin-gold, F-cadmium, F-brass, A-pewter, so 7 powers. This is not possible with just medallions, so you would need at least 2 hemalurgic spikes and 3 power medallion, but at least it mitigates the pain from burning and suffocating, the pain from being torn limb to limb is still there though. The size of stores of F-steel is still the same.

4 hours ago, Publius said:

If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

  Reveal hidden contents

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.
 

So this is potentially a contradiction to the extrapolated limits of feruchemy, however

1. The WoB has to assume that the air friction is not a factor (so either vaccum, or they have Abrasion powers), otherwise it conflicts with other WoBs on steelrunning.
2. We have no clue what he meant by 'close'. I would personally lean that 'close' is at least 1% of speed of light, which is still ridiculously lot.

In principle though there is a technical loophole (which admittedly is not satisfactory to me), in that he never says for how long they could move at this speed. Since there is no upper limit on how fast you can tap a storage, in principle even ordinary feruchemist can move at nearly speed of light, it will just be such a short time interval that no one will even notice.

However, better counterpoint is that we also have this bit newer WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10858)

Quote

Steeldancer

So if a steel compounder became an Edgedancer... 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, here we go. [Audience laughs]

Steeldancer

If a steel compounder became an Edgedancer, how fast could they go?

Brandon Sanderson

[Dramatic sigh] They could go quite fast. They are not going to ever reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed. So, I will say quick, but not that quick. We aren't outracing an atom bomb, as the Flash periodically does. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

and this suggests that even when air friction is no longer a factor, they are much more limited than it would seem. Pressure blast of nuclear bomb moves at Mach ~20, so to not be able to outrun it would limit them to about tens of Machs as order of magnitude. If he meant outrunning the radiation, than it says basically the same thing as the WoB you linked. However his comment of 'not ever going to reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed' makes me think the first option (outrunning pressure blast) is more likely. Other (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8380) newer WoB also suggests they cannot reach such insane speed levels like hundreds or higher tens of Mach, otherwise A-pewter/F-steel could not win even a short race.

3 hours ago, Publius said:

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

We have created far faster vehicles than SR-71, for aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Technology_Vehicle_2 , Mach 20), for spacecraft we routinely exceed escape velocity moving at ~60000 km/h so Mach ~60 (of course mostly out of atmosphere, otherwise the vehicles would melt and be torn apart).

Marasi did not replenish anything, she used up a lot of speed, and handed them off to Wax. While she did not show any ill effects, she was also moving at supersonic speeds for barely half a second, which would help a lot to mitigate some damage (and was tapping all other attributes as well, and at least healing would have helped a lot, although the fact that her clothing is not damaged at all is odd inconsistency with stated mechanics).

The issue is still that at such speeds you need other attributes, and the air forces will set you on fire and tear you limb from limb, causing debilitating pain even to someone with C-Gold. Also based on our single point of evidence from books, even Mach ~10 velocities drain steelminds very fast, after half a second user was worried about tapping too much. Other demonstrated feats of BoM

1. Granting steelsight of such level Marasi and Wax see souls, ability beyond even Marsh with 21 spikes and comparable to ascending Vin.
2. Pushing on trace metals, again beyond even Marsh's ability.
3. Exuding mist, something never seen before, not even from Lerasium Mistborn or Lord Ruler (although he was a bit of a layabout)
4. Healing death, again something unseen previously.

clearly suggest that the stores of BoM were compounded, and yet only Mach ~10 steel was explicitly singled out as 'draining too fast'.

3 hours ago, Publius said:

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 3,430 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

So a two minor corrections

1. Speed * mass is not force it is momentum, so all the values of force you listed are not force at all, but momenta (this does not change your argument that much, but correctness is important)
2. Second, air drag is a thing, the metal sphere would have radius about ~7cm, and the air drag on it would be ~90 kN of force. That would result in acceleration of the sphere of 9000 m/s^2, i.e. it would get slowed down very quickly.

Mind you, if the 10 kg ball was moving just at twice the speed of sound, it would definitely shatter a section of shardplate. Although shardplate does seem to resist blunt impacts better than edges, so you might be better with of with lightly sharpened rods or something with edges.

3 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Will just add two chips--I'm pretty sure that WoB wasn't taking into account wind resistance i.e. it was assuming a frictionless environment like space. Any other wobs where friction is considered the estimate is far lower. So you can go The Fast in space, in atmosphere it is harder.

Also, the math doesn't say that hypermach speed is impossible. You can reach it. It's just that you can't sustain it for an appreciable amount of time. It drains too quickly due to diminishing returns. Marasi notes that in her very short stint of being The Fast that she was draining The Bands of Mourning at an alarming rate. Compounding is supposed to release at a factor of 10x, right? So if you have a LOT of speed stored (I forget exactly how much) you can either go Mach 10 for a half-second, or Mach 1 for 5 seconds. Mach 1 for 5 seconds can do a lot, with effective resource management it can be lot more, but it means that Steel Compounders can't just ""Fast"" themselves everywhere all the time. 

I would correct a small thing here as well, due to greater losses for faster tapping, if Marasi sustained Mach 10 for 0.5 second, Mach 1 would be sustained for longer than 5 second, due to less stored investiture being used on compression.

I hope my corrections do not come off as rude, I just wish to try and stick to the stated effects (like losses from tapping fast) and known physics as close as possible.

Edited April 12, 2021 by therunner
rephrased few sentences for clarity

[Publius]

@therunner I was a bit nervous when I made that part of my post about the Newtons, precisely because I was worried I was doing it incorrectly, so I have no issue whatsoever with your corrections. In fact, I welcome them! I appreciate and enjoy your attentiveness to detail.

[therunner]

47 minutes ago, Publius said:

@therunner I was a bit nervous when I made that part of my post about the Newtons, precisely because I was worried I was doing it incorrectly, so I have no issue whatsoever with your corrections. In fact, I welcome them! I appreciate and enjoy your attentiveness to detail.

Glad to be of assistance then

I seem to recall you study politology and philosophy, so making a small mistake in unrelated area is understandable. I studied physics, so things like this jump out at me, and It is also why I keep trying to throw math at stuff

EDIT: And the underlying argument you were going for still holds, just the units and reasoning is slightly different.

Edited April 12, 2021 by therunner

[Publius]

14 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Well also note that Marasi moved like a whole, what, 50 feet while moving hypersonic+ for her brief half-second, right? I don't think that's enough air to get super hot via compression, so Marasi's case probably can't really be used anyway?

This is a bit tricky. Moving at  Mach 17.62, even for a short distance, should cause a lot of friction, and therefore heat - I think. However, during the course of like 20 minutes or so of googling and reading various things last night, I was not able to find useful information to inform myself about how fast air friction would begin to cause heat and how much heat would be caused. My gut tells me that even though she moved a very short distance, moving fast enough to leave an air vacuum should have produced a non-trivial amount of heat friction. If any scientifically minded users can chime in on this (such as @therunner), I'd love to hear from you.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

although the fact that her clothing is not damaged at all is odd inconsistency with stated mechanics)

You briefly touched on it here, especially when you mentioned the clothing. The inference appears to be that you would have expected there to be significant heat, such that we should have seen damage to her clothing from it?

Edited April 12, 2021 by Publius

[therunner]

30 minutes ago, Publius said:

This is a bit tricky. Moving at  Mach 17.62, even for a short distance, should cause a lot of friction, and therefore heat - I think. However, during the course of like 20 minutes or so of googling and reading various things last night, I was not able to find useful information to inform myself about how fast air friction would begin to cause heat and how much heat would be caused. My gut tells me that even though she moved a very short distance, moving fast enough to leave an air vacuum should have produced a non-trivial amount of heat friction. If any scientifically minded users can chime in on this (such as @therunner), I'd love to hear from you.

So this is a bit outside of my usual wheelhouse, but I will give it a shot. I think here the primary source of heat is not friction (This is debatable, but I frankly do not have much idea how to quantify this) but heating due to air being compressed. I will assume adiabatic compression (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process#Adiabatic_heating_and_cooling) and that one of here movements effectively worked like the piston compressing air to 1/10 of original volume at the leading surface of the movement (I honestly also do not know how well to estimate how much air will be compressed, but the 10 sounds like a good ballpark guess). This would create temperature difference of ~400 K. Heat conductance of skin is about 0.3 per some googling, so the amount of heat per second per surface area transferred would be ~133 J/(s*m^2). If that move lasted 0.5 second (that is upper limit we have) the amount of heat per surface area transferred is ~66 J/m^2 . Since heating up 1 gram of water by one degree takes 4.19 J, this amount of heat would heat up exposed surface of skin by about ~1-2 degrees, not enough to do any damage. Of course moving at such speed for 20 seconds would lead to both greater heating of air and also longer exposure, even if the temperature gradient remained the same the skin would heat up by 40-80 degrees i.e. it might start boiling.

Of course there are additional factors, such as heat conducting away from the skin to deeper organs having cooling effect, changing of direction of movement serving to shortly decrease the air pressure, but I do not think these effects would have any influence on orders of magnitude.

30 minutes ago, Publius said:

You briefly touched on it here, especially when you mentioned the clothing. The inference appears to be that you would have expected there to be significant heat, such that we should have seen damage to her clothing from it?

The clothing I would expect to be damaged not from heat itself (the movement was too short a time) but from effectively the 'wind', i.e. the air current flowing against it. Imagine what would happen to a shirt stuck on a pole in the middle of a tornado, there would be holes. And her speed is greater than a tornadoes by few orders of magnitude.

Edited April 12, 2021 by therunner

[Quantus]

4 hours ago, therunner said:

The clothing I would expect to be damaged not from heat itself (the movement was too short a time) but from effectively the 'wind', i.e. the air current flowing against it. Imagine what would happen to a shirt stuck on a pole in the middle of a tornado, there would be holes. And her speed is greater than a tornadoes by few orders of magnitude.

Cinematic Superman-style Field effect protecting her clothing? There are some (not many) other examples of field effects, like with Aluminum. 

On the other hand, I also dont think it's out of the realm of possibility for her to have been blurring the lines between Speed and straight Temporal abilities, given Wax's All is One metal-line epiphany moment.  There could be multiple effects being used in concert there subconsciously. 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Cinematic Superman-style Field effect protecting her clothing? There are some (not many) other examples of field effects, like with Aluminum. 

On the other hand, I also dont think it's out of the realm of possibility for her to have been blurring the lines between Speed and straight Temporal abilities, given Wax's All is One metal-line epiphany moment.  There could be multiple effects being used in concert there subconsciously. 

Cinematic effect is probably the closest to how it looks like, but mechanically it is odd.

Some sort of field effect due to F-steel extending outwards from Feruchemist would explain also how they can manipulate fragile objects (like glass vials of metal, or open doors) at hundreds of meters per seconds speed, those objects should rightfully shatter when accelerated such. However, it does not make sense for Feruchemy to affect objects others than Feruchemist, so this explanation does not seem satisfactory to me either.

I am not sure if multiple abilities being used in concert makes sense, Paalm also does things which do not make sense (handling objects at such speeds without damaging them), but it could be an option.

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Cinematic effect is probably the closest to how it looks like, but mechanically it is odd.

Some sort of field effect due to F-steel extending outwards from Feruchemist would explain also how they can manipulate fragile objects (like glass vials of metal, or open doors) at hundreds of meters per seconds speed, those objects should rightfully shatter when accelerated such. However, it does not make sense for Feruchemy to affect objects others than Feruchemist, so this explanation does not seem satisfactory to me either.

I am not sure if multiple abilities being used in concert makes sense, Paalm also does things which do not make sense (handling objects at such speeds without damaging them), but it could be an option.

Well, a lot of feruchemical effects actually do affect more than the user, for superspeed, it clearly helps your clothes not rip off, and that can be explained that the soul of the object sees itself inside of your field, similar to the time bubble effect.

[Bigmikey357]

Honestly field effects as a side effect of extreme Feruchemy usage seems right to me. It would explain the limited strength increase Wax experiences when tapping Iron too, though I'm at a loss even attempting to explain it mathematically.  My issue is that most of the extreme applications aren't going to be much useful in a fight. Maybe a Feruchemist could actually move at Mach speeds but that's overkill for something that burns through their reserves like napalm on kindling and hurts them in ways only F-Gold can combat.  Maybe F-Iron can store enough weight to unbalance the planet or make a black hole but who exactly would the guy be fighting to make that necessary?

All the Metallic Arts applications (save Maybe Hemalurgy) are better used for space age types of uses. Store F-Iron to assist in escape velocity.  Tap F-Steel for speedier interplanetary travel.  Bendalloy and Cadmium bubbles for Aburrcurie Drive mechanics and Supraluminul travel.  Why even fight one on one when you have that type of tech.

That isn't to say that a Feruchemy user as a whole would not be a dangerous opponent for anyone.  Sazed holding a city gate against a rampaging army mostly by himself would put paid to that notion.  In fact I believe that a war band Feruchemist is even more dangerous to a Radiant of any level than a Mistborn would be.  So after RoW here's my new Heirarchy of Power between Scadrial and Roshar:

Fullborn

Unchained Bondsmith

Full Radiant/Ruin Modified Inquisitors 

Full Feruchemist (w/Armor)/4 Ideal Radiant/

Regular Inquisitors/Fused

3 Ideal Radiant/Mistborn/ Regal

Battle applicable Twinborn 

Regular Singers/Shardbearers

2 Ideal Radiant/ Koloss 

1 Ideal Radiant/ Mistings

Random dude with a dead Shardblade. 

[Frustration]

27 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Honestly field effects as a side effect of extreme Feruchemy usage seems right to me. It would explain the limited strength increase Wax experiences when tapping Iron too, though I'm at a loss even attempting to explain it mathematically.  My issue is that most of the extreme applications aren't going to be much useful in a fight. Maybe a Feruchemist could actually move at Mach speeds but that's overkill for something that burns through their reserves like napalm on kindling and hurts them in ways only F-Gold can combat.  Maybe F-Iron can store enough weight to unbalance the planet or make a black hole but who exactly would the guy be fighting to make that necessary?

All the Metallic Arts applications (save Maybe Hemalurgy) are better used for space age types of uses. Store F-Iron to assist in escape velocity.  Tap F-Steel for speedier interplanetary travel.  Bendalloy and Cadmium bubbles for Aburrcurie Drive mechanics and Supraluminul travel.  Why even fight one on one when you have that type of tech.

That isn't to say that a Feruchemy user as a whole would not be a dangerous opponent for anyone.  Sazed holding a city gate against a rampaging army mostly by himself would put paid to that notion.  In fact I believe that a war band Feruchemist is even more dangerous to a Radiant of any level than a Mistborn would be.  So after RoW here's my new Heirarchy of Power between Scadrial and Roshar:

Fullborn

Unchained Bondsmith

Full Radiant/Ruin Modified Inquisitors 

Full Feruchemist (w/Armor)/4 Ideal Radiant/

Regular Inquisitors/Fused

3 Ideal Radiant/Mistborn/ Regal

Battle applicable Twinborn 

Regular Singers/Shardbearers

2 Ideal Radiant/ Koloss 

1 Ideal Radiant/ Mistings

Random dude with a dead Shardblade. 

You'd put an Augur above a Shardbearer?

[Bigmikey357]

A Gold misting is really just a regular dude so of course Shardbearer gonna smash. Even the random dude with a Shardblade is going to mow down a lot of Mistings.  I was mostly thinking of the more martial users of Allomancy, the Atium misting, the coinshot and lurcher, the Thug, maybe a Tineye with a Sniper rifle.

Mostly my list is about innate ability, not tools. Guns even the playing field somewhat,  as do certain Fabrials including medallions.  But once a tool is introduced both sides can use them to a greater or lesser degree. That's the entire purpose of tools after all. 

[Aspiring Writer]

You forgot ferrings.

[The Technovore]

I like that despite the fact that Kaladin absolutely destroyed a hundred or more singers in WoK as a 2nd Ideal Radiant, and that Dal and Adolin did the same as Shardbearers, singers rank above 2nd Ideal Radiants and equal with Shardbearers

Unless we're talking like a whole squad of them? Still...

To balance out with some positivity, I do like that Mistings and 1st Ideal Radiants are equivalent. Stormlight is so potent as a thing that I think it would match most Mistings. I respect this list, although I disagree on a few points.

My Heirarchy:

Talnenlat, the most powerful man in the universe,

Fullborn

Full Radiant

Unchained Bondsmith/Super Inquisitors/prolly 5th Ideal idk

4th Ideal Radiant/Mistborn

Full Feruchemist

Battle Applicable Compounders

Normal Inquisitors/3rd Ideal Radiants/Fused

Other solid Twinborn combos/Regals

2nd Ideal Radiant/"Warrior Ferrings" with guns/Shardbearers

Mistings with guns/Less useful Twinborn and Ferrings with guns/Koloss/

1st Ideal Radiant/Dudes with Guns

Mistings without guns/Dude with just a Shardblade

Singers/Spearmen

I included guns. Guns are probably the biggest thing Scadrial would have going into a conflict, even if Rosharans get them eventually. If you're facing down a scary glowing person, a gun will be your best friend, even if it's not enough.

It's hard to quantify this list too because really you need to be ranking each power. Gravitation trumps most Scadrian abilities except Gun (the best magic ability) simply by virtue of being out of range. Abrasion, however, increases mobility but does not let you stay out of range so easily. 

 

[Bigmikey357]

@The Technovore

There is no doubt that  Stonesinew is or should be at the top of everyone's list.  That being said,  our respective lists don't vary much.  I tend to think Feruchemist is a better opponent for a Radiant than a Mistborn,  but a Mistborn could beat a Feruchemist. It's almost rock paper scissors for me.

I didn't want to add guns because then you gotta add Fabrials and Soulcasters in particular are some broken objects. Then again to each their own. 

Last,  the list is just in general.  The power list is quite a bit more complicated when we start contemplating specifics within powersets. It's why I put Unchained Bondsmith and Fullborn at the top, one has every power, the other can snatch every power.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Bigmikey357

[therunner]

10 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, a lot of feruchemical effects actually do affect more than the user, for superspeed, it clearly helps your clothes not rip off, and that can be explained that the soul of the object sees itself inside of your field, similar to the time bubble effect.

Which feruchemical effects can affect more than user? Outside of F-steel I can only think of F-Iron, as I would expect in more extreme cases of weight tapping Wax to damage his shoes for example (although the two scenes in mind, falling through floor and destroying the building, he is either lying on his back or in air). As far as I can remember all other effects of Feruchemy are purely on the feruchemist, it does not affect their clothing or items around them. In principle you could make argument F-Duralumin affects others, but since that is direct function of Connection, there it makes sense.

I would personally also go in this 'spiritual' direction, but as it seems outside of mechanics of Feruchemy, it does not feel right.

2 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@The Technovore

There is no doubt that  Stonesinew is or should be at the top of everyone's list.  That being said,  our respective lists don't vary much.  I tend to think Feruchemist is a better opponent for a Radiant than a Mistborn,  but a Mistborn could beat a Feruchemist. It's almost rock paper scissors for me.

I didn't want to add guns because then you gotta add Fabrials and Soulcasters in particular are some broken objects. Then again to each their own. 

Last,  the list is just in general.  The power list is quite a bit more complicated when we start contemplating specifics within powersets. It's why I put Unchained Bondsmith and Fullborn at the top, one has every power, the other can snatch every power.

I would agree with Full Feruchemist being a better opponent for a Radiant (they can be faster, comparably strong and can heal), however I think they are more limited than Mistborn. Full Feruchemist fighting Radiant of 4th oath will use up considerable amount of his stores, so even if he wins he cannot do so again for at least few weeks, if not months. Mistborn would have harder time dealing with 4th Oath Radiant, but after a fight they can drink a few vials of metal and they are mostly good to go. Although if Mistborn got wounded they are out of fighting for few weeks as well (if they did not get killed outright).

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Which feruchemical effects can affect more than user? Outside of F-steel I can only think of F-Iron, as I would expect in more extreme cases of weight tapping Wax to damage his shoes for example (although the two scenes in mind, falling through floor and destroying the building, he is either lying on his back or in air). As far as I can remember all other effects of Feruchemy are purely on the feruchemist, it does not affect their clothing or items around them. In principle you could make argument F-Duralumin affects others, but since that is direct function of Connection, there it makes sense.

F-brass affects the outside world