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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

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Huh well I guess I was completely off the mark

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Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Applying this WoB to what you suggest:

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Tapping weight gives you the ability to handle that weight

Ergo

Tapping heat gives you the ability to handel that heat

"you become immune to the effects of the ability only."
Tapping heat would only make you immune to the effects of the heat that you tapped, it is not a magic bullet for solving all heat-related problems from other sources.
The takeaway is that tapping heat won't light you on fire, but it also won't protect you from burning up due to air friction.
"Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard."
Tapping heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with low body temperatures caused by being in a cold environment, as demonstrated in The Bands of Mourning...
Logical inference and this WoB tells us that...
Storing heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with high body temperatures such as those caused by air friction.

Otherwise, our erstwhile heroes in Bands of Mourning would not tap heat to deal with cold environments. They would store heat.
However, we demonstrably observe them tapping heat in order to deal with cold environments.

Edited by Publius
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5 minutes ago, Publius said:
  Reveal hidden contents

Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Applying this WoB to what you suggest:

"you become immune to the effects of the ability only."
Tapping heat would only make you immune to the effects of the heat that you tapped, it is not a magic bullet for solving all heat-related problems from other sources.
The takeaway is that tapping heat won't light you on fire, but it also won't protect you from burning up due to air friction.
"Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard."
Tapping heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with low body temperatures caused by being in a cold environment, as demonstrated in The Bands of Mourning...
Logical inference and this WoB tells us that...
Storing heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with high body temperatures such as those caused by air friction.

It's brass not bronze first off

Second off if you are hotter than something the heat will leave you not enter.

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Well also note that Marasi moved like a whole, what, 50 feet while moving hypersonic+ for her brief half-second, right? I don't think that's enough air to get super hot via compression, so Marasi's case probably can't really be used anyway?

 

EDIT: The real problem is that the more we argue about these kinds of details and semantics, the more clear the system inconsistencies get and the less reliable WoBs and books become. What's eventually going to happen is that our modernist philosophy concerning Realmatics is going to break down, causing philosophical chaos in our society as we completely lose faith in concepts like reality and objective truth. All will Tremble in the Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation...

Edited by The Technovore
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If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

Spoiler

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

As for surviving the effects of air resistance?
F-Brass can deal with heat.
C-Gold can heal, among other things... point-blank dynamite, decapitation, Hemalurgical Spiking, and death (Waxillium). It should have no issue restoring tissue damage from heat, broken bones from air resistance, or whatever else might arise.

Edited by Publius
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22 minutes ago, Publius said:

If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

  Hide contents

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

As for surviving the effects of air resistance?
F-Brass can deal with heat.
C-Gold can heal, among other things... point-blank dynamite, decapitation, Hemalurgical Spiking, and death (Waxillium). It should have no issue restoring tissue damage from heat, broken bones from air resistance, or whatever else might arise.

We can get close to moving matter at the speed of light to but it's not something we can use for transportation.

Edit: it's also possible to soulcast Aluminum into other things

Edited by Frustration
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39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

We can get close to moving matter at the speed of light to but it's not something we can use for transportation.

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

 

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 3,430 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

 

Edited by Publius
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1 minute ago, Publius said:

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

 

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 34,300 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

 

the mach 7 was @therunner's estimate not mine

And BoM where created by Kelsier and I don't think they will ever be replicated, At most that is a one time event every couple of years even for Fullborn.

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Will just add two chips--I'm pretty sure that WoB wasn't taking into account wind resistance i.e. it was assuming a frictionless environment like space. Any other wobs where friction is considered the estimate is far lower. So you can go The Fast in space, in atmosphere it is harder.

Also, the math doesn't say that hypermach speed is impossible. You can reach it. It's just that you can't sustain it for an appreciable amount of time. It drains too quickly due to diminishing returns. Marasi notes that in her very short stint of being The Fast that she was draining The Bands of Mourning at an alarming rate. Compounding is supposed to release at a factor of 10x, right? So if you have a LOT of speed stored (I forget exactly how much) you can either go Mach 10 for a half-second, or Mach 1 for 5 seconds. Mach 1 for 5 seconds can do a lot, with effective resource management it can be lot more, but it means that Steel Compounders can't just ""Fast"" themselves everywhere all the time. 

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8 hours ago, Publius said:

The heat and friction are easily solvable.
1. Store heat with F-Brass.
2. As @BenduLuke suggested, wear appropriate protective clothing/armor.

Edit:
Alternative means:
Acknowledge that you might become a human torch while dabbing on the proverbial tortoise-shelled-Rosharan-slowpokes and Heal yourself with F-Gold.

7 hours ago, Publius said:

A & F Pewter strength can help overcome resistance and, as I noted in an edit to my previous post, F-Bronze could assist in avoiding the deleterious effects of heat. F-Gold can also heal from the negative effects thereof.

Finally, WoBs can say anything they like, but Marasi noted absolutely nothing in the way of heating up due to her speed or having to deal with wind resistance. I'll be far more inclined to worry about air friction if it actually makes it into the books when Metallic Artists go fast.

Outside of storing heat you also need to tap breath, otherwise the hyperpressurized and heated air tears you lungs. In theory both of these could be overcome with enough F-Gold, but the issue there is, you still feel the pain, and simultaneously suffocating, being burned alive and torn by the wind would be very painful, dare I say debilitating even. Only gold savants don't feel pain, and that takes years and years of tapping compounded gold.

So you need one of

  1. Twin-steel, Twin-gold, A-pewter (F-pewter would not be that useful I think, as it enlarges the muscles, increasing surface area and drag force) so 5 powers. A suitable twinborn with 3 power medallion could have it, but they would be debilitated by pain and would still need very large stores.
  2. Twin-steel, Twin-gold, F-cadmium, F-brass, A-pewter, so 7 powers. This is not possible with just medallions, so you would need at least 2 hemalurgic spikes and 3 power medallion, but at least it mitigates the pain from burning and suffocating, the pain from being torn limb to limb is still there though. The size of stores of F-steel is still the same.
4 hours ago, Publius said:

If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.

  Reveal hidden contents

aeromancer (paraphrased)

So would it be possible to use Steelrunning + compounding to travel FTL?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, it would not. You could get close, though.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

Kind of like Zemo's Paradox, than? You keep halving the distance, never quite making it?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*gleam in his eye* Trying to crack Allomatic FTL?

aeromancer (paraphrased)

*guilty* Maybe.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You can't.

aeromancer (paraphrased)

I don't know, there are alot of good theories out there.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It involves Allomantic abilities which we don't know about yet.

speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s
speed of sound = 343 m / s
In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030.
How close is "close" to the speed of light?
Well, let's look at some numbers:
1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015
1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507
1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403
1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740
1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874
1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87
Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here.
For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again:
You could get close
Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel.
 

So this is potentially a contradiction to the extrapolated limits of feruchemy, however

  1. The WoB has to assume that the air friction is not a factor (so either vaccum, or they have Abrasion powers), otherwise it conflicts with other WoBs on steelrunning.
  2. We have no clue what he meant by 'close'. I would personally lean that 'close' is at least 1% of speed of light, which is still ridiculously lot.

In principle though there is a technical loophole (which admittedly is not satisfactory to me), in that he never says for how long they could move at this speed. Since there is no upper limit on how fast you can tap a storage, in principle even ordinary feruchemist can move at nearly speed of light, it will just be such a short time interval that no one will even notice.

However, better counterpoint is that we also have this bit newer WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10858)

Quote

Steeldancer

So if a steel compounder became an Edgedancer... 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, here we go. [Audience laughs]

Steeldancer

If a steel compounder became an Edgedancer, how fast could they go?

Brandon Sanderson

[Dramatic sigh] They could go quite fast. They are not going to ever reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed. So, I will say quick, but not that quick. We aren't outracing an atom bomb, as the Flash periodically does. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

and this suggests that even when air friction is no longer a factor, they are much more limited than it would seem. Pressure blast of nuclear bomb moves at Mach ~20, so to not be able to outrun it would limit them to about tens of Machs as order of magnitude. If he meant outrunning the radiation, than it says basically the same thing as the WoB you linked. However his comment of 'not ever going to reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed' makes me think the first option (outrunning pressure blast) is more likely. Other (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175/#e8380) newer WoB also suggests they cannot reach such insane speed levels like hundreds or higher tens of Mach, otherwise A-pewter/F-steel could not win even a short race.

3 hours ago, Publius said:

The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2.
Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~.
Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62.
If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic.

We have created far faster vehicles than SR-71, for aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_Technology_Vehicle_2 , Mach 20), for spacecraft we routinely exceed escape velocity moving at ~60000 km/h so Mach ~60 (of course mostly out of atmosphere, otherwise the vehicles would melt and be torn apart).

Marasi did not replenish anything, she used up a lot of speed, and handed them off to Wax. While she did not show any ill effects, she was also moving at supersonic speeds for barely half a second, which would help a lot to mitigate some damage (and was tapping all other attributes as well, and at least healing would have helped a lot, although the fact that her clothing is not damaged at all is odd inconsistency with stated mechanics).

The issue is still that at such speeds you need other attributes, and the air forces will set you on fire and tear you limb from limb, causing debilitating pain even to someone with C-Gold. Also based on our single point of evidence from books, even Mach ~10 velocities drain steelminds very fast, after half a second user was worried about tapping too much. Other demonstrated feats of BoM

  1. Granting steelsight of such level Marasi and Wax see souls, ability beyond even Marsh with 21 spikes and comparable to ascending Vin.
  2. Pushing on trace metals, again beyond even Marsh's ability.
  3. Exuding mist, something never seen before, not even from Lerasium Mistborn or Lord Ruler (although he was a bit of a layabout)
  4. Healing death, again something unseen previously.

clearly suggest that the stores of BoM were compounded, and yet only Mach ~10 steel was explicitly singled out as 'draining too fast'.

3 hours ago, Publius said:

In order to give this some practical application to this speed...
The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams.
Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s.
A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force.
A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 3,430 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force.

In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?

So a two minor corrections

  1. Speed * mass is not force it is momentum, so all the values of force you listed are not force at all, but momenta (this does not change your argument that much, but correctness is important)
  2. Second, air drag is a thing, the metal sphere would have radius about ~7cm, and the air drag on it would be ~90 kN of force. That would result in acceleration of the sphere of 9000 m/s^2, i.e. it would get slowed down very quickly.

Mind you, if the 10 kg ball was moving just at twice the speed of sound, it would definitely shatter a section of shardplate. Although shardplate does seem to resist blunt impacts better than edges, so you might be better with of with lightly sharpened rods or something with edges.

3 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Will just add two chips--I'm pretty sure that WoB wasn't taking into account wind resistance i.e. it was assuming a frictionless environment like space. Any other wobs where friction is considered the estimate is far lower. So you can go The Fast in space, in atmosphere it is harder.

Also, the math doesn't say that hypermach speed is impossible. You can reach it. It's just that you can't sustain it for an appreciable amount of time. It drains too quickly due to diminishing returns. Marasi notes that in her very short stint of being The Fast that she was draining The Bands of Mourning at an alarming rate. Compounding is supposed to release at a factor of 10x, right? So if you have a LOT of speed stored (I forget exactly how much) you can either go Mach 10 for a half-second, or Mach 1 for 5 seconds. Mach 1 for 5 seconds can do a lot, with effective resource management it can be lot more, but it means that Steel Compounders can't just ""Fast"" themselves everywhere all the time. 

I would correct a small thing here as well, due to greater losses for faster tapping, if Marasi sustained Mach 10 for 0.5 second, Mach 1 would be sustained for longer than 5 second, due to less stored investiture being used on compression.

I hope my corrections do not come off as rude, I just wish to try and stick to the stated effects (like losses from tapping fast) and known physics as close as possible.

Edited by therunner
rephrased few sentences for clarity
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@therunner I was a bit nervous when I made that part of my post about the Newtons, precisely because I was worried I was doing it incorrectly, so I have no issue whatsoever with your corrections. In fact, I welcome them! I appreciate and enjoy your attentiveness to detail.

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47 minutes ago, Publius said:

@therunner I was a bit nervous when I made that part of my post about the Newtons, precisely because I was worried I was doing it incorrectly, so I have no issue whatsoever with your corrections. In fact, I welcome them! I appreciate and enjoy your attentiveness to detail.

Glad to be of assistance then :)

I seem to recall you study politology and philosophy, so making a small mistake in unrelated area is understandable. I studied physics, so things like this jump out at me, and It is also why I keep trying to throw math at stuff :)

EDIT: And the underlying argument you were going for still holds, just the units and reasoning is slightly different.

Edited by therunner
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