Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

@BenduLuke

We have no idea what tapping aluminum would do, so you can't say it will autoheal to what you were when you stored it.

And where in the article does it say that identity is always changing.

[therunner]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

First I got the Idea of how fast pewter burning might be from Vin being able to outrun a horse (40-45 mph) for a long period of time roughly 3x burning and guessing on what is possible with flare just more than 3x. Still if they sprinted everywhere for an hour while burning pewter they might be able to store 30mph for an hour of burning which is initially more than compounding can create. Estimating loss by tapping faster I don't have hard numbers on and can only speculate, but there is loss, but until tapped there is no loss.

Burning roughly 2x, flaring roughly 3x (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7674). I have ran the numbers for loss on tapping, and the numbers on storing attribute in my post, even under influence of pewter flare.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Compounding on the other hand works differently. If you store 10% for 1 minute you might store about 1.5 mph for a sprint. Then you Burn that for a 10x return so now you have 15 mph for 1 minute no time change which you store. Next you have 150 mph for 1 minute again no loss due to change in time and if you extend that time to 10 minutes again no loss due to compression but you are only running 15 mph for that period. Next 1,500 mph then 15,000 mph = mach 19 for 1 minute or Mach 1.9 for 10 minutes or 150 mph for almost 2 hours again no time compression so no loss. From there you have 16 hours of 150 mph worth of speed stored and at the next compound you have almost a weeks worth of 150 mph. 150 mph should be enough to run circles around almost anybody in the cosmere, but if not you can tap it all the way back to your ultimate lossless 1 minute velocity which would be Mach 278 and would flay you in atmosphere without some kind of major protection. The compounder only needs to store the initial speed seed to get this result in just a few periods of compounding that is why Miles was almost impossible to kill while he had all his metal minds. How often will the steelrunner need to tap anywhere near that potential. How much of that potential will they tap to enhance their pushes if they can find an appropriate anchor to take advantage of it. How fast would a coin or bullet be moving if pushed by that kind of force and for how far. How much steel do you need to store that much speed?

It does not work as you say, compounding only enlarges the store, it does nothing for the loss on tapping. Those 15000 mph for 1 minute would not be tappable at that rate for 1 minute, the loss is there any time you tap large amounts of attribute (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803), and you are talking about collosal amounts. The loss on tapping is anytime when you tap storage fast, i.e. when you tap faster than some basic speed of tapping which is most likely not larger than 100% of the normal attribute. I.e. you will get those losses when tapping compounded stores.

In your example you might have hundreds of hours of 50mph speed stored, but if you tap more than 25mph you will run into the losses I have outlined, i.e. no Mach 278 even for compounder, look at the numbers, Mach 278 = 94600 m/s they would have to tap at 9460x times the usual speed, their loss would be ~10^(-1997) the compounder would have to have compounded 1 minute of 10m/s speed nearly 2000 times! That is utterly ridiculous. Even the Mach 19 example would give losses ~10^(-144) so to get 1 minute at that speed you need to compound that storage at least 144 times, and that will take time.

We have seen Marasi be afraid of wasting stores when she was moving at barely Mach 10, what you are talking about is completely outside of anything shown in story.

21 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I have been catching up on the surge discussion and it occurred to me that by definition metal arts are surges without oaths and thus without oath restrictions. Just food for thought when comparing Roshar with Scadrial.

No, they are not.

22 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum both removes investiture injuries using allomancy and restores the spiritweb using feruchemy both of which allow for a form of healing. The restoration aspect might even heal physical injuries back to the last Identity store, or allows for progression healing by potentially removing the part of the identity that has accepted the injury as permanent depending on when the Identity was stored last.

From my perspective the potential of Aluminum metal art is beyond that of any other form of surge binding in the Cosmere see some of my other comments above for an idea why. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

A-aluminum removes foreign investiture, F-aluminum can be used to heal coginitive damage. You cannot just remove part of your identity, and there is nothing suggesting this feruchemy is permanent.

Aluminum-twin looses to any marginally good Knight with Transmutation on any day, they just need to soulcast air around their head into stone, or set them on fire. Bondsmith could steal their bond to Harmony, rendering them powerless. Aluminum is far from strong.

[BenduLuke]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

@BenduLuke

We have no idea what tapping aluminum would do, so you can't say it will autoheal to what you were when you stored it.

And where in the article does it say that identity is always changing.

Not sure auto heal is necessarily the term I would use more like restore or reboot with Feruchemy and cleanse with Allomancy.

I picked up my understanding of Identity and Aluminum across several articles over the last several months since joining. Recently someone suggested that what I was envisioning would potentially work if I replaced Identity with Spiritweb, but when I looked up spiritweb right in the opening paragraph it refereed to the boundaries of a persons spiritweb are their Identity. That would mean that a persons physical, cognative, connections, and personality, experiences, skills, talents or in other words everything a person is are contained within their Identity. As such it is always changing with new experiences and such. No one and nothing remains stagnant so Identity changes over time. Connections are logically overlaps between 2 Identities and are also fluid changing over time.

I saw someone comment that Radiants would leave Roshar, and I have assumed that is the case, but with some of the restrictions placed on cognative travel from Roshar I realized I am not sure if that is actually the case. I know there are groups trying to enable it like the ghostbloods, but I am not sure where it might say or imply that it will be the case. With Scadrial Brandon has said they will get FTL travel and thus will be able to bridge to various worlds within the physical realm. Just because some people like Hoid can travel from place to place within the CR I don't think that nessisarily implies that is plausible for almost anyone else. One restriction I know of is that when people attempt to transport stormlight off system it increases in mass like someone is attempting FTL travel in our universe. I am not even sure the Ghostbloods on Roshar are actually from another planet just in contact with others from off System.

You seem knowledgeable. Where does it imply or suggest that Radiants might leave Roshar before Scadrial bridges the gap in the physical realm?

@therunner Brandon souned a bit iffy in that WOB, but 2x to 3x for strength and indefinite on other attributes that's fine the storage still starts higher but will be out matched by compounding over time. Not suer I was clear if a Steel compounder takes a minute to store some speed they can tap that same speed for the same time without loss. If they burn the metal mind they get back maybe 10x what was stored and so long as they don't reduce the tapping time to less than the storing time they can have virtually 100% return, and they can get the same result by giving themselves more time instead of more speed from their augmented storage. So compounding gives them about 10x speed for the same time or 1x speed for 10x time, or a combination of the 2 such as 2x speed for 5x time. Each compounding increases the storage about 10x in either time or speed or a combination of both until they reach a point where it becomes hazardous to go any faster.

Edited April 8, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure auto heal is necessarily the term I would use more like restore or reboot with Feruchemy and cleanse with Allomancy.

I picked up my understanding of Identity and Aluminum across several articles over the last several months since joining. Recently someone suggested that what I was envisioning would potentially work if I replaced Identity with Spiritweb, but when I looked up spiritweb right in the opening paragraph it refereed to the boundaries of a persons spiritweb are their Identity. That would mean that a persons physical, cognative, connections, and personality, experiences, skills, talents or in other words everything a person is are contained within their Identity. As such it is always changing with new experiences and such. No one and nothing remains stagnant so Identity changes over time. Connections are logically overlaps between 2 Identities and are also fluid changing over time.

I wouldn't say it like that, my skin is the border of me, but my heart isn't made out of it.

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I saw someone comment that Radiants would leave Roshar, and I have assumed that is the case, but with some of the restrictions placed on cognative travel from Roshar I realized I am not sure if that is actually the case. I know there are groups trying to enable it like the ghostbloods, but I am not sure where it might say or imply that it will be the case. With Scadrial Brandon has said they will get FTL travel and thus will be able to bridge to various worlds within the physical realm. Just because some people like Hoid can travel from place to place within the CR I don't think that nessisarily implies that is plausible for almost anyone else. One restriction I know of is that when people attempt to transport stormlight off system it increases in mass like someone is attempting FTL travel in our universe. I am not even sure the Ghostbloods on Roshar are actually from another planet just in contact with others from off System.

You seem knowledgeable. Where does it imply or suggest that Radiants might leave Roshar before Scadrial bridges the gap in the physical realm?

Era two takes place after SA 5 so Hoid has a spren by that time and

SotD 2

Spoiler

A Radiant(likely corrupted Skybreaker, or at least one using Warlight) appears on first of the Sun

 

[BenduLuke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I wouldn't say it like that, my skin is the border of me, but my heart isn't made out of it.

Era two takes place after SA 5 so Hoid has a spren by that time and

SotD 2

  Reveal hidden contents

A Radiant(likely corrupted Skybreaker, or at least one using Warlight) appears on first of the Sun

 

I haven't got my hands on First of the Sun yet. Hoid is an exception in all the books, he is practically a shard.

Skin doesn't seem like a good analogy in this case more like it is the connective portion of the body to the outside world and the body is the Identity, which the heart is part of.

SotD 2 ?

Edited April 8, 2021 by BenduLuke

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

SotD 2 ?

Brandon did a reading from the sequel to Sixth of the Dusk at the RoW release party.

[therunner]

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunner Brandon souned a bit iffy in that WOB, but 2x to 3x for strength and indefinite on other attributes that's fine the storage still starts higher but will be out matched by compounding over time. Not suer I was clear if a Steel compounder takes a minute to store some speed they can tap that same speed for the same time without loss. If they burn the metal mind they get back maybe 10x what was stored and so long as they don't reduce the tapping time to less than the storing time they can have virtually 100% return, and they can get the same result by giving themselves more time instead of more speed from their augmented storage. So compounding gives them about 10x speed for the same time or 1x speed for 10x time, or a combination of the 2 such as 2x speed for 5x time. Each compounding increases the storage about 10x in either time or speed or a combination of both until they reach a point where it becomes hazardous to go any faster.

In the WoB, Brandon still does agree that it is roughly 2x for burn, and 3x for flaring. Even the case of Vin you mentioned previously, she matches/slightly outruns a horse when burning pewter, horses run at ~50km/h, so if she was doubling her sprint speed she would be faster at ~70 km/h and with pewter she does not tire. So really, no grounds to assume pewter gives anything more that what is stated in WoB. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9-calamity-philadelphia-signing/#e7674)

And you were clear on compounder, but also wrong. This WoB (that I already linked several times) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803 , clearly states that any tapping of large amount of attribute causes loss. It does not matter on the origin of the store, it could have been slowly stored over 50 years, or compounder could have compounded it, if you try and tap large amounts of investiture from metalmind you will lose something and that loss grows the more you try to tap at once. Compounder can multiply their stores all they want, but they cannot avoid this fundamental limitation of feruchemy.

So again, compounding does not give them 10x speed for same time, it gives them the same amount of storage that hypothetically is enough for that if there were not losses. However, since there are losses for tapping large amounts of attribute, compounder will run into this issue and they will have losses as any feruchemist would.

The only advantage (and it is a big one) is that they can have far larger stores and get them faster than normal feruchemist ever could.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I picked up my understanding of Identity and Aluminum across several articles over the last several months since joining. Recently someone suggested that what I was envisioning would potentially work if I replaced Identity with Spiritweb, but when I looked up spiritweb right in the opening paragraph it refereed to the boundaries of a persons spiritweb are their Identity. That would mean that a persons physical, cognative, connections, and personality, experiences, skills, talents or in other words everything a person is are contained within their Identity. As such it is always changing with new experiences and such. No one and nothing remains stagnant so Identity changes over time. Connections are logically overlaps between 2 Identities and are also fluid changing over time.

Problem with your definition of Identity is that it would imply that any change to anything you listed (persons physical aspect, cognitive aspect, connections, personality, experiences, skills, talents) would change Identity, but this would make Feruchemy incredibly hard because the Identity of the person tapping and storing needs to be close (or needs to be a blank identity). We know that stealing an ability with spike will not change Identity of the donor, and in fact the spike carries enough of the Identity to allow the recipient to tap stores of Donor along with the Donor himself (if he regained the ability). To give an example (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e872)

1. You have Alice, Bob and Clara. Alice and Bob are F-Gold, Clara wants it and knows Hemalurgy.
2. Clara spikes Alice (so now Clara has F-Gold from Alice).
3. Clara also spikes Bob and gives the spike to Alice (so now Alice has F-Gold from Bob).
4. End result:
   1. Clara can tap stores she makes and original stores of Alice.
   2. Alice can tap stores she made originally, Bob stores, and any new stores she makes.
   3. Bob is Dead.

I think this carries some implications for Identity, namely that while anything in given persons soul has their Identity, it does not mean that Identity is everything in their soul. Alice's Identity did not change enough by spiking away an ability and being given a new one so much that she could not tap her original stores, and yet she can tap the Bob's stores. This to me suggests that Identity acts like a 'mark' on individual's spiritweb denoting it as someone's. I.e. all the persons Connections/Investiture/Spiritweb carries their Identity, but their Identity is not their Connections/Investiture/Spiritweb.

And on compounding aluminum, we have WoB that it would not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1131), WoB RAFOing if it is even possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6334) and RAFO WoB if we will just see it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10864).

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I saw someone comment that Radiants would leave Roshar, and I have assumed that is the case, but with some of the restrictions placed on cognative travel from Roshar I realized I am not sure if that is actually the case. I know there are groups trying to enable it like the ghostbloods, but I am not sure where it might say or imply that it will be the case.

For Roshar we have Hoid in Era 2 demonstrating it can be done (unless he broke the bond, but considering how happy he was I doubt that) and Sixth of the Dusk sequel showing people other than Hoid can do that.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Just because some people like Hoid can travel from place to place within the CR I don't think that nessisarily implies that is plausible for almost anyone else. One restriction I know of is that when people attempt to transport stormlight off system it increases in mass like someone is attempting FTL travel in our universe. I am not even sure the Ghostbloods on Roshar are actually from another planet just in contact with others from off System.

The first sentence completely ignores all the worldhoppers we know exist and who travel through Cognitive all the time (plus entire city of Worldhoppers exists in Cognitive), we have (in parentheses is where we have seen them)

1. From Nalthis: some of Five Scholars (Roshar), Vivenna (Roshar)
2. From Scadrial: Aslydin (unknown), Axindweth (Roshar), Demoux (Roshar), Felt (Roshar), Iyatil (Roshar), Lemex's Nurse (Nalthis), various Kandra (unknown)
3. From Sel: Galladon (Roshar), Ire which includes several Elantrians (Scadrial cognitive), Riino (Roshar cognitive)
4. From Taldain: Khriss (seen everywhere), Baon (seen on Roshar)
5. From Threnody: Nazrilof/Nazh (traveles with Khriss, so again almost everywhere)
6. From Unknown: Sleepless (Roshar, other planets)

Nalthis even has customs for world-hoppers to go through. And in-world there are many more worldhoppers, to the extent there are many organizations and interplanetary trade is a thing (one trade route went through Pits of Hathsin). Travel through cognitive is not something only Hoid does, pretty much everyone does it. And Ghostbloods have off-world members, Iyatil (Mraizes babsk) is from Southern Scadrial.

Transportation of stormlight is currently problematic, but as it is possible to re-attune light to a different one in vacuum it might be possible to create 'blank'-light that has not particular tie to Roshar and carry that off. Although it might have to be either kept in vacuum, or put in aluminum containers. Bigger problem is carrying spren off-world (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1474) as any Cognitive entity has a tie to their world (Kelsier is currently trying to figure out a way around this ,https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10799), but examples from SotD 2 and of Vasher (who himself is cognitive entity, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5078) show it can be done, and that some might have it easier than others.

Maybe an unchained Bondsmith could take the connection spren/Cognitive entity has to the planet, and sort of tie it back into the spren, creating a loop that starts and end with a spren?

Edited April 9, 2021 by therunner
spelling, sources

[Aspiring Writer]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

but when I looked up spiritweb right in the opening paragraph it refereed to the boundaries of a persons spiritweb are their Identity. That would mean that a persons physical, cognative, connections, and personality, experiences, skills, talents or in other words everything a person is are contained within their Identity.

Okay, let me make a comparison for you. A cell's borders are defined by its membrane, and everything is within the membrane. That does not make mean the cell and the membrane are interchangeable. One defines its borders, the other is it

[BenduLuke]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

In the WoB, Brandon still does agree that it is roughly 2x for burn, and 3x for flaring. Even the case of Vin you mentioned previously, she matches/slightly outruns a horse when burning pewter, horses run at ~50km/h, so if she was doubling her sprint speed she would be faster at ~70 km/h and with pewter she does not tire. So really, no grounds to assume pewter gives anything more that what is stated in WoB. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9-calamity-philadelphia-signing/#e7674)

And you were clear on compounder, but also wrong. This WoB (that I already linked several times) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803 , clearly states that any tapping of large amount of attribute causes loss. It does not matter on the origin of the store, it could have been slowly stored over 50 years, or compounder could have compounded it, if you try and tap large amounts of investiture from metalmind you will lose something and that loss grows the more you try to tap at once. Compounder can multiply their stores all they want, but they cannot avoid this fundamental limitation of feruchemy.

So again, compounding does not give them 10x speed for same time, it gives them the same amount of storage that hypothetically is enough for that if there were not losses. However, since there are losses for tapping large amounts of attribute, compounder will run into this issue and they will have losses as any feruchemist would.

The only advantage (and it is a big one) is that they can have far larger stores and get them faster than normal feruchemist ever could.

Problem with your definition of Identity is that it would imply that any change to anything you listed (persons physical aspect, cognitive aspect, connections, personality, experiences, skills, talents) would change Identity, but this would make Feruchemy incredibly hard because the Identity of the person tapping and storing needs to be close (or needs to be a blank identity). We know that stealing an ability with spike will not change Identity of the donor, and in fact the spike carries enough of the Identity to allow the recipient to tap stores of Donor along with the Donor himself (if he regained the ability). To give an example (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98/#e872)

1. You have Alice, Bob and Clara. Alice and Bob are F-Gold, Clara wants it and knows Hemalurgy.
2. Clara spikes Alice (so now Clara has F-Gold from Alice).
3. Clara also spikes Bob and gives the spike to Alice (so now Alice has F-Gold from Bob).
4. End result:
   1. Clara can tap stores she makes and original stores of Alice.
   2. Alice can tap stores she made originally, Bob stores, and any new stores she makes.
   3. Bob is Dead.

I think this carries some implications for Identity, namely that while anything in given persons soul has their Identity, it does not mean that Identity is everything in their soul. Alice's Identity did not change enough by spiking away an ability and being given a new one so much that she could not tap her original stores, and yet she can tap the Bob's stores. This to me suggests that Identity acts like a 'mark' on individual's spiritweb denoting it as someone's. I.e. all the persons Connections/Investiture/Spiritweb carries their Identity, but their Identity is not their Connections/Investiture/Spiritweb.

And on compounding aluminum, we have WoB that it would not do much (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105/#e1131), WoB RAFOing if it is even possible (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6334) and RAFO WoB if we will just see it (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10864).

For Roshar we have Hoid in Era 2 demonstrating it can be done (unless he broke the bond, but considering how happy he was I doubt that) and Sixth of the Dusk sequel showing people other than Hoid can do that.

The first sentence completely ignores all the worldhoppers we know exist and who travel through Cognitive all the time (plus entire city of Worldhoppers exists in Cognitive), we have (in parentheses is where we have seen them)

1. From Nalthis: some of Five Scholars (Roshar), Vivenna (Roshar)
2. From Scadrial: Aslydin (unknown), Axindweth (Roshar), Demoux (Roshar), Felt (Roshar), Iyatil (Roshar), Lemex's Nurse (Nalthis), various Kandra (unknown)
3. From Sel: Galladon (Roshar), Ire which includes several Elantrians (Scadrial cognitive), Riino (Roshar cognitive)
4. From Taldain: Khriss (seen everywhere), Baon (seen on Roshar)
5. From Threnody: Nazrilof/Nazh (traveles with Khriss, so again almost everywhere)
6. From Unknown: Sleepless (Roshar, other planets)

Nalthis even has customs for world-hoppers to go through. And in-world there are many more worldhoppers, to the extent there are many organizations and interplanetary trade is a thing (one trade route went through Pits of Hathsin). Travel through cognitive is not something only Hoid does, pretty much everyone does it. And Ghostbloods have off-world members, Iyatil (Mraizes babsk) is from Southern Scadrial.

Transportation of stormlight is currently problematic, but as it is possible to re-attune light to a different one in vacuum it might be possible to create 'blank'-light that has not particular tie to Roshar and carry that off. Although it might have to be either kept in vacuum, or put in aluminum containers. Bigger problem is carrying spren off-world (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1474) as any Cognitive entity has a tie to their world (Kelsier is currently trying to figure out a way around this ,https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10799), but examples from SotD 2 and of Vasher (who himself is cognitive entity, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5078) show it can be done, and that some might have it easier than others.

Maybe an unchained Bondsmith could take the connection spren/Cognitive entity has to the planet, and sort of tie it back into the spren, creating a loop that starts and end with a spren?

I know that if you tap a metal mind faster than it is stored you lose a potentially significant portion of the storage, and the more protracted the tapping the more you lose, but if tapped at or below the rate of storage it is a lossless exchange. One example I saw was that if you store half your weight for an hour you can be 1 1/2 times heavier for an hour or perhaps 2x heavier for 1/2 hour. The limit for a steel compounder is not so much how much speed they have available but at what point it becomes physically damaging to go any faster. The metalmind you attached is good as far as it goes, but is incomplete.

mweaver9280

How fast could a steel/steel Twinborn move?

Brandon Sanderson

You'd hit physical limits eventually. While the Metallurgic arts generally enhanced the body to deal with the powers granted, things like air resistance would hold you back--perhaps even kill you--if you weren't careful.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 16, 2013)

How many from your list from Roshar were Radiants? I didn't say no one was traveling, but it seems like an unusual activity and not easily scale-able and also problematic especially form Roshar. Hoid probably knows how to power his Radiant surges with other sources so may not need stormlight. That wasn't my question though. Does it mention anywhere that Roshar will likely be able generally to travel before Scadrial opens that option within the physical Realm? Even a whole city is barely a drop in the bucket to any of the worlds. 

Yes every change or experience would change a persons Identity, but the metalmind is connected to them, so that connection updates the identity lock as it happens even when not actively storing or tapping it.

ps. I reviewed your list and noticed you don't have anyone from Roshar which seems strange but supports the idea that it is difficult for people from Roshar to leave but not as difficult for people from elsewhere to go there, am I missing something?

Edited April 9, 2021 by BenduLuke

[The Technovore]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148/#e2780
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7128

@BenduLuke Here's proof of Rosharan Worldhoppers. 

4 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes every change or experience would change a persons Identity, but the metalmind is connected to them, so that connection updates the identity lock as it happens even when not actively storing or tapping it.

You said this without citing anything. That's the main problem, it's why you're getting so much pushback for things. Folks are throwing out links, and citations to the books and to the author themselves, and, your arguments would be improved if you would or could do the same. I mean this not to be confrontational, but to be honest, and hopefully to give some helpful feedback. 

It's not difficult for Rosharans to leave. It's difficult for Spren to leave. Therefore it's currently difficult for Radiants to leave. But we know from the books that it is indeed possible, through Identity or Connection shenanigans. @therunner already went through some speculation on how it could happen, but the fact that it does happen is already fact. There's nothing to debate on whether it is possible, it's just a matter of how it will happen.

[therunner]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I know that if you tap a metal mind faster than it is stored you lose a potentially significant portion of the storage, and the more protracted the tapping the more you lose, but if tapped at or below the rate of storage it is a lossless exchange. One example I saw was that if you store half your weight for an hour you can be 1 1/2 times heavier for an hour or perhaps 2x heavier for 1/2 hour.

Yes, the example you mention is in the other WoB I have shared, one I based my calculations on. The issue is that you still ignore the other WoB, the one I shared as well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) which directly state that the loss when tapping large amounts of attribute does not depend on rate of storage. Here is the WoB

Quote

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

Does the loss during the withdrawal of large amounts of attribute depend on the rate of original storage?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

See? The compounder could not overcome the loss when tapping large amounts, they run into the same limitation as the normal Feruchemist, hence I would expect my analysis to roughly hold. The advantage compounders have is only in the size of their stores, they still suffer from losses at the same rate as any other Feruchemist.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The limit for a steel compounder is not so much how much speed they have available but at what point it becomes physically damaging to go any faster. The metalmind you attached is good as far as it goes, but is incomplete.

mweaver9280

How fast could a steel/steel Twinborn move?

Brandon Sanderson

You'd hit physical limits eventually. While the Metallurgic arts generally enhanced the body to deal with the powers granted, things like air resistance would hold you back--perhaps even kill you--if you weren't careful.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 16, 2013)

So if air resistance could kill you (also this WoB, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695), they cannot move much faster than Mach 2, as at that point the air resistance would heat them up to ~120 Celsius quite quickly, in practice they would be limited to Mach 1.5 maybe. So they would definitely not reach your examples of Mach 280. Example of Marasi complicated this a bit, but she was moving at Mach ~7 only for about ~0.5 second at best, so not enough time to heat up.

I do not understand what you meant by the comment about metalmind being good but incomplete.

Sidenote: You can put citations from Arcanum into quotes, it makes it more readable.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

How many from your list from Roshar were Radiants? I didn't say no one was traveling, but it seems like an unusual activity and not easily scale-able and also problematic especially form Roshar. Hoid probably knows how to power his Radiant surges with other sources so may not need stormlight. That wasn't my question though. Does it mention anywhere that Roshar will likely be able generally to travel before Scadrial opens that option within the physical Realm? Even a whole city is barely a drop in the bucket to any of the worlds.

ps. I reviewed your list and noticed you don't have anyone from Roshar which seems strange but supports the idea that it is difficult for people from Roshar to leave but not as difficult for people from elsewhere to go there, am I missing something?

@The Technovore already answered this (thank you for that), and included links for Rosharan's being on others planet some thing I was not aware off. I will add my own thoughts.

On if Roshar will travel before Scadrial, um I would expect so. Anyone who is not Radiant can already travel outside of Rosharan system, they just need to either convince Coalition to send them to Shadesmar, or find Cultivations' perpendicularity and cross over. Then it is mostly question of walking. If Radiants will do it any time soon, well that is a bigger question. However, based on WoBs it seems it is an issue of spren's connection to Roshar and since we now have unchained Bondsmiths for whom modifying Connections is as easy as reaching out, I do not think we will have to wait long.

Ultimately, Roshar has the means to enable mass off-world travel already, even for Radiants, they just need to put the pieces together. Conversely Scadrial does not yet have the needed technology yet, their ships and occupants of those ships would not yet be able to travel outside the atmosphere, let alone a solar system, and developing that material science will take at least a century for them, possibly more.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes every change or experience would change a persons Identity, but the metalmind is connected to them, so that connection updates the identity lock as it happens even when not actively storing or tapping it.

I think this is wrong and actually provably so.

If it worked as you say, than any time Full Feruchemist would store their Identity enough, all their previous stores would become unkeyed metalminds, even the aluminum-mind with their Identity. However, unkeyed metalminds are unknown to Northern Scadrians, despite Terris actively experimenting with spiritual metals. In principle all it would take to discover unkeyed metalminds is to have two aluminum ferrings and experiment with both at once, and since they are already thinking along these directions they would most likely ask them to switch metalminds after filling them and then they would notice that both of those metalminds became unkeyed (if it worked as you say, that Identity-lock in metalmind is being updated), yet they only theorize about such happening. This clearly implies that such things are not happening.

In addition, all the process for creating unkeyed metalminds mention that you need to store Identity first, and only then you can create unkeyed metalminds, something your thesis contradicts.

EDIT: The best counterargument, and I did not think of it first. If it worked as you say it does (connection to metalmind updates Identity-lock) unkeyed metalminds could not exist at all. Any time someone would created one, the second they stopped storing Identity, the metalmind would revert to a keyed one, i.e. it would no longer be 'unkeyed metalmind' and so unkeyed metalminds could not exist as they do in-world.

In light of the above, I do not think your thesis holds, i.e. I do not think Identity-lock on metalminds is actively being updated.

Edited April 10, 2021 by therunner
additional argument

[BenduLuke]

18 hours ago, The Technovore said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/148/#e2780
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7128

@BenduLuke Here's proof of Rosharan Worldhoppers. 

You said this without citing anything. That's the main problem, it's why you're getting so much pushback for things. Folks are throwing out links, and citations to the books and to the author themselves, and, your arguments would be improved if you would or could do the same. I mean this not to be confrontational, but to be honest, and hopefully to give some helpful feedback. 

It's not difficult for Rosharans to leave. It's difficult for Spren to leave. Therefore it's currently difficult for Radiants to leave. But we know from the books that it is indeed possible, through Identity or Connection shenanigans. @therunner already went through some speculation on how it could happen, but the fact that it does happen is already fact. There's nothing to debate on whether it is possible, it's just a matter of how it will happen.

It really doesn't matter if I cite things because you guys regularly ignore them anyway and there are contradictory citations to support that attitude.

I never said impossible I said difficult, and perhaps even complicated. Even your second WoB say it is difficult and unusual.

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, the example you mention is in the other WoB I have shared, one I based my calculations on. The issue is that you still ignore the other WoB, the one I shared as well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) which directly state that the loss when tapping large amounts of attribute does not depend on rate of storage. Here is the WoB

See? The compounder could not overcome the loss when tapping large amounts, they run into the same limitation as the normal Feruchemist, hence I would expect my analysis to roughly hold. The advantage compounders have is only in the size of their stores, they still suffer from losses at the same rate as any other Feruchemist.

So if air resistance could kill you (also this WoB, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695), they cannot move much faster than Mach 2, as at that point the air resistance would heat them up to ~120 Celsius quite quickly, in practice they would be limited to Mach 1.5 maybe. So they would definitely not reach your examples of Mach 280. Example of Marasi complicated this a bit, but she was moving at Mach ~7 only for about ~0.5 second at best, so not enough time to heat up.

I do not understand what you meant by the comment about metalmind being good but incomplete.

Sidenote: You can put citations from Arcanum into quotes, it makes it more readable.

@The Technovore already answered this (thank you for that), and included links for Rosharan's being on others planet some thing I was not aware off. I will add my own thoughts.

On if Roshar will travel before Scadrial, um I would expect so. Anyone who is not Radiant can already travel outside of Rosharan system, they just need to either convince Coalition to send them to Shadesmar, or find Cultivations' perpendicularity and cross over. Then it is mostly question of walking. If Radiants will do it any time soon, well that is a bigger question. However, based on WoBs it seems it is an issue of spren's connection to Roshar and since we now have unchained Bondsmiths for whom modifying Connections is as easy as reaching out, I do not think we will have to wait long.

Ultimately, Roshar has the means to enable mass off-world travel already, even for Radiants, they just need to put the pieces together. Conversely Scadrial does not yet have the needed technology yet, their ships and occupants of those ships would not yet be able to travel outside the atmosphere, let alone a solar system, and developing that material science will take at least a century for them, possibly more.

I think this is wrong and actually provably so.

If it worked as you say, than any time Full Feruchemist would store their Identity enough, all their previous stores would become unkeyed metalminds, even the aluminum-mind with their Identity. However, unkeyed metalminds are unknown to Northern Scadrians, despite Terris actively experimenting with spiritual metals. In principle all it would take to discover unkeyed metalminds is to have two aluminum ferrings and experiment with both at once, and since they are already thinking along these directions they would most likely ask them to switch metalminds after filling them and then they would notice that both of those metalminds became unkeyed (if it worked as you say, that Identity-lock in metalmind is being updated), yet they only theorize about such happening. This clearly implies that such things are not happening.

In addition, all the process for creating unkeyed metalminds mention that you need to store Identity first, and only then you can create unkeyed metalminds, something your thesis contradicts.

EDIT: The best counterargument, and I did not think of it first. If it worked as you say it does (connection to metalmind updates Identity-lock) unkeyed metalminds could not exist at all. Any time someone would created one, the second they stopped storing Identity, the metalmind would revert to a keyed one, i.e. it would no longer be 'unkeyed metalmind' and so unkeyed metalminds could not exist as they do in-world.

In light of the above, I do not think your thesis holds, i.e. I do not think Identity-lock on metalminds is actively being updated.

Yes I looked at the WoB you posted and it is incomplete in other words missing the context of what he is actually describing.  Note after the bolding. In this WoB he uses the term compounding to indicate tapping faster than storing so tapping in a forshortened period of time not twinborn compounding when read in context.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126

"Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)"

It doesn't really matter if the steelrunner can safely run Mach 2 because even a person running 100 mph would be almost untouchable by almost any opponent. Where do you get the idea that running Mach 2 would create hazardous levels of Friction? Besides any material or armor that reduces wind resitance would enable greater speeds without risk.

There are many Scadrians across the Cosmere as noted by the list presented and others I have seen so it must not be as much of an issue for them entering Shadesmar either and they can travel with their investiture intact. Brandon has said that metalborn access to their investiture is the most accessible everywhere.

Unkeyed metalminds don't have a connection to any Identity so there is nothing to update.

Aluminum was an unknown metal at the time of Full Feruchemists by TLR's design and only in era 2 as it becomes more accessable is it actively being studied by the Terris scholars and they don't really understand it yet. From some of the WoB's I read it sounds like Brandon has plans for Aluminum compounders but not likely until era 3 at the earliest.

Finally in summary of this thread so far:

The majority opinion of those engaged from the beginning is that the ultimate weapon in the cosmere is the shardblade more so than guns, and explosives in combat. Shardplate is all but indestructable and can withstand nearly any amount of damage or attack from anything except for the aforementioned shardblade, and it grants superhuman abilities of strength, and speed to exceed anything else in the cosmere. In addition healing provided by the Nahel bond exceeds all other investiture healing. Radiants are so powerful that there is not contest between them and Metalborn under almost any circumstance. There are not enough martial examples of metalborn powers to allow for speculation based on described properties to contradict the majority opinions. The ultimate Radiant order is the Bondsmith who can with god like power overwhelm anyone else in the Cosmere and strip them of all power at a whim. Because of this it is only a matter of time before Radiants establish a totalitarian empire across the Cosmere as a result of their unbeatable investiture.

This opinion seems to be held despite individuals on Scadrial capable of destroying castles and buildings, moving faster than can be tracked, or healing from explosions and decapitations, and powerful enough to throw horses and split people and horses in two with a sword all at once. Even with the Wolverine like healiing provided by compounded Gold no other compounded metals could possibly have that level of power available to it because we don't have any example of it.

If it is not obvious I am not convinced at the majority opinion with the seeming idea that the Radiants can crush all their competition from Scadrial such that there is no contest. Honestly I think this topic was misnamed instead of being called Scadrian vs Rosharan magic it probably should have been called how Rosharan magic crushes Scadrian magic and why. I wish that I could say that this topic has been fair and balanced but all the contrary opiinions to the regular majority have been driven off. Not convinced but unwilling to go against the popular opinion. I hope I see something worth commenting on in the future but I wont hold my breath.

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It really doesn't matter if I cite things because you guys regularly ignore them anyway and there are contradictory citations to support that attitude.

The only time your citations are ignored is when you cite the coppermind instead of using a quote or WoB and most of the time what you said wasn't even close to what was actually stated in the article.

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

This opinion seems to be held despite individuals on Scadrial capable of destroying castles and buildings, moving faster than can be tracked, or healing from explosions and decapitations, and powerful enough to throw horses and split people and horses in two with a sword all at once. Even with the Wolverine like healiing provided by compounded Gold no other compounded metals could possibly have that level of power available to it because we don't have any example of it.

Number of

Mistborn: zero

Any particular twinborn combination at a time: at most one

The fastest time ever recorded of a human going is 27 mph, I think giving Steelrunners slightly under mach 1 is still a lot.

 

Also bring the snark way down

[The Technovore]

 

5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The majority opinion of those engaged from the beginning is that the ultimate weapon in the cosmere is the shardblade more so than guns, and explosives in combat. Shardplate is all but indestructable and can withstand nearly any amount of damage or attack from anything except for the aforementioned shardblade, and it grants superhuman abilities of strength, and speed to exceed anything else in the cosmere. In addition healing provided by the Nahel bond exceeds all other investiture healing. Radiants are so powerful that there is not contest between them and Metalborn under almost any circumstance. There are not enough martial examples of metalborn powers to allow for speculation based on described properties to contradict the majority opinions. The ultimate Radiant order is the Bondsmith who can with god like power overwhelm anyone else in the Cosmere and strip them of all power at a whim. Because of this it is only a matter of time before Radiants establish a totalitarian empire across the Cosmere as a result of their unbeatable investiture.

 

Yea, not accurate. I don't think I've seen a single person argue that Roshar dominates unilaterally. Everyone you've been battling with here has had conversations and honest speculations on the way Scadrial could come out on top, except maybe Frustration. You've been the only one besides maybe Publius that has argued a unilateral overwhelming victory for Scadrial, but at least Publius has had some mechanics and evidence from the books and previous WoBs backing it up, instead of asserting Aluminum Compounding is somehow the catch-all "hack my way into all the magics and be invincible."

What you *have* seen argued is that Radiants wouldn't be bullied by just any magic user, that an Oath 4 would have a chance against a Mistborn because sprenplate won't fall apart with a single pewter-punch, that Scadrial might not have the overwhelming technology and tactics advantage it did before Navani and Co discovered Anti-Light and started mimicking Surges 10 years before Era 2 NoScad discovered medallions. You've seen bias for Roshar, bias for Scadrial, a really good argument that a Hemalurgically constructed Fullborn would likely be a massive threat, that a Mistborn would have a good shot of killing an Oath 4 with the right metals and tools, and you've seen a LOT of pushback on the assertions that:

F-Iron compounders can be black holes

F-Steel compounders can be the flash

F-Identity is better than all of Hemalugry and Bondsmithing combined

That Radiants are pushover punching bags waiting for a Scadrian to stab.

 

I've argued for both sides myself, so it's a touch insulting to see this unfair reframing of the opposing arguments. Are you in all seriousness trying to assert that therunner, who has brought more math, objectivity, and fairness to this whole thing, is trying to say Radiants are invincible? 

Since I can't speak for everyone, and since it's rude to do so, I'll speak for myself.

Nightblood is the ultimate weapon in the Cosmere. Sprenblades are really storming good, better than guns in most ways except for range, but they are not the ultimate. Shardplate is really good and can sustain a lot of damage, providing strength and protection to exceed a-pewter, but it's not the ultimate. Sustained gunfire could likely overwhelm it easily. It grants superhuman speed and strength comparable to or exceeding A-Pewter, but if it does exceed A-pewter, it wouldn't be by much. Nahel Bond Healing is approximately equal to or less than F-Gold compounding, and it's certainly more effective than normal F-Gold storing. Radiants are so powerful that there is no contest between them and Mistings or Ferrings under almost any circumstance. Mistborn, some Compounders, and Feruchemists are a more even matchup, and Fullborn absolutely slap Radiants. There are not enough martial examples of metalborn powers to justify the speculation you've put forth based on described properties. The ultimate Radiant order is the Bondsmith who can provide massive amounts of Stormlight and has a lot of potential with their Spiritual Connection abilities that we've only scratched the surface on. Because of this the best Scadrial can do is force a stalemate or attempt more subversive tactics to undermine Roshar until their magic-hacking or superweapon abilities are developed enough to seize victory or splinter the Rosharan Shards. 

There IS a reason Rayse chose Roshar over Scadrial, and why Rayse saw the Rosharan humans conquering the cosmere under his rule. Scadrial is not necessarily weaker--Hemalurgy is a great way to magic-hack one's way to victory. But speculation, insults, snark, and dishonestly reframing the discussion to make everyone else look like fools will get us nowhere.

Are there ANY other avenues of discussion or mechanics that we can take this conversation to? Identity arguments are getting nowhere and we've touched on almost every base I can think of. Anyone else? Or shall we just wait for The Last Metal to come out so we can hash it out in the next iteration of this thread? (laughing emoji goes here lol)

Edited April 11, 2021 by The Technovore

[therunner]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It really doesn't matter if I cite things because you guys regularly ignore them anyway and there are contradictory citations to support that attitude.

I never said impossible I said difficult, and perhaps even complicated. Even your second WoB say it is difficult and unusual.

I try not to ignore any citations, but I do usually check them and if is it the coppermind I check the sources of the coppermind, and sometimes it does not say what you are trying to present it as, or I disagree with your interpretation.

The second WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7128) nowhere states that it is difficult or unusual, it only says that the only place we could have seen current Stormlight Archive characters is in Era 2 Scadrial (because there are no other books outside of SoTD that are set at a later time) and that due to trapping of Odium (and other things, most likely Recreance) travel both into and from Roshar has diminished compared to some previous era.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes I looked at the WoB you posted and it is incomplete in other words missing the context of what he is actually describing.  Note after the bolding. In this WoB he uses the term compounding to indicate tapping faster than storing so tapping in a forshortened period of time not twinborn compounding when read in context.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126

Quote

 

"Sporkify

This is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote: This question was asked when fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy had only been seen in Rashek. As such, the term compounding is used purely to reference tapping at a higher rate than can be stored.
Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)"

 

 

How is this missing context? Someone asks if it is really balanced if it gives diminishing returns, and Brandon answers? There really is no context to be missing, if someone taps stores faster (which per the second WoB means faster than some set maximum amount) there are losses, and from this WoB it seems that the maximum natural tapping rate is most likely (since per the second WoB it does not depend on rate of storage) 100% human attribute, i.e. that without loss you can double your attributes.

The reason Brandon uses the term compounding (notice the small c) is because 1) compounding is an english word with some meaning that was applicable in this context and 2) the term Compounding was not yet defined (the WoB is from 15th Oct 2008, 1 day after release of HoA), so Brandon had no reason to avoid using the word

And again, per the second WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/153/#e2803) which is more recent (being from 2012) the loss is always there if you tap large amount of attribute, period. No shenaningans will get you around that, and unless you decide to disregard this WoB or know about some different one, I really do not see how you can claim this is not a problem for Compounders.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It doesn't really matter if the steelrunner can safely run Mach 2 because even a person running 100 mph would be almost untouchable by almost any opponent. Where do you get the idea that running Mach 2 would create hazardous levels of Friction? Besides any material or armor that reduces wind resitance would enable greater speeds without risk.

100 mph would be definite advantage, I have no problem acknowledging that. But it is also not outside of scope of reaction times of even normal human, tennis balls move at such speeds regularly and yet normal people can play tennis without missing every single ball. Ordinary person (no stormlight) in deadplate has improved reaction time and speed probably at somewhere between 2x-2.5x of ordinary person, with strength at least 10x improved. Stormlight on its own marginally improves ('perfects' is the word used) and allows people not to tire, so I would expect someone in living plate to be moving at top speeds of ~60mph maybe a bit more. So yeah, someone moving at 100mph would most likely ruin 3rd oath Radiant's day, and might have a chance against 4th oath if they have either some good guns, or great strength improvements (Duralumin+Pewter, F-Pewter).

Concorde (designed to be aerodynamic, and flying at altitude where outside temp is ~ -20 Celsius) regularly heated up to 100 degrees Celsius, and its top speed was limited to Mach 2.02 because otherwise outside temperature would exceed the limit of aluminum body which was 127 degrees Celsius. Mind, the body was also coated in specialized white paint to bring the temperatures down another 11 degrees Celsius, without that the speed would be even more limited. So that is why I think moving at Mach 2 air heating is hazardous, because it is.

If you tried moving at such speeds at sea level the heating would be even greater because

1. Air density at sea level is ~4x greater than at flight height.
2. Air temperature is ~40 degrees Celsius higher, so even neglecting the increase in density, at Mach 2 the compressed air would have temperature ~167 degrees Celsius.
3. A person is nowhere near as aerodynamic as Concorde is, even with specialized equipment.

Finally, Era 2 Scadrial definitely does not have more advanced material science that 1970s earth, so they really cannot come up with material/armor to mitigate this sufficiently. Actually, even if they were, at these temps you would need active cooling or the person simply cooks, you cannot fool physics. Fancier materials won't help you when the reason for temperatures is compressed air, not even the friction.

And this not even address how the air drag would be something the steel twin needs to fight through. A person just trying to walk into a mere 200 mph sustained wind has a great difficulty, try imagine what trying to walk into a sustained wind of  ~1500mph would be like.

So yeah, even with unlimited stores Mach 2 would be incredibly dangerous even for tens of seconds or so for steel compounder.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

There are many Scadrians across the Cosmere as noted by the list presented and others I have seen so it must not be as much of an issue for them entering Shadesmar either and they can travel with their investiture intact. Brandon has said that metalborn access to their investiture is the most accessible everywhere

True we have seen a lot of Scadrians/Scadrian descendent. However, you will notice that even in Era 2 no one Scadrial does not seem to know about Cognitive Realm, much less Spiritual one. Even our protaginsts don't know Cognitive realm is a thing much less about existence of other populated planets. Kandra most likely know because Harmony told them, but no else does. The only cosmere aware Scadrian organizations are The Set (serving another Shard most likely) and The Ghostbloods (started by Kelsier a cognitve shadow). Conversely on Roshar every single one of our protagonists knows about Cognitive and regularly travel into it, and are also being informed about specific other planets.

It is true that metalborn have advantage in that their investiture keys are widely available, being just metal. However the metals need to be allomatically viable (is this also necessary for Feruchemy? ) so they would need to do one of the following

1. Carry proper metals (mainly the alloys, but the normal metals probably also need to be very pure) with them.
2. Find someone to prepare metals for them (this would require them to also carry Connection medallion for language)
3. Prepare the necessary alloys themselves, which requires access to smelting facilities and forges.

So they can access, but it is not as easy as going to other planet, grabbing a piece of steel they find and burning that, that would most likely not do much.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Unkeyed metalminds don't have a connection to any Identity so there is nothing to update.

You cannot have it both ways, either the Identity-lock updates as the Identity changes (and storing/tapping is just a change in Identity, if not in kind than in magnitude) and then unkeyed metalminds are impossible, or it does not and unkeyed minds are possible.

You cannot say, Identity-lock updates for changes in Identity, except for unkeyed metalminds, there is really nothing to support such difference.

12 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Finally in summary of this thread so far:

The majority opinion of those engaged from the beginning is that the ultimate weapon in the cosmere is the shardblade more so than guns, and explosives in combat. Shardplate is all but indestructable and can withstand nearly any amount of damage or attack from anything except for the aforementioned shardblade, and it grants superhuman abilities of strength, and speed to exceed anything else in the cosmere. In addition healing provided by the Nahel bond exceeds all other investiture healing. Radiants are so powerful that there is not contest between them and Metalborn under almost any circumstance. There are not enough martial examples of metalborn powers to allow for speculation based on described properties to contradict the majority opinions. The ultimate Radiant order is the Bondsmith who can with god like power overwhelm anyone else in the Cosmere and strip them of all power at a whim. Because of this it is only a matter of time before Radiants establish a totalitarian empire across the Cosmere as a result of their unbeatable investiture.

You misrepresenting other people's position is not doing you any favours.

No one says that shardblades are ultimate weapon, they are however ultimate melee weapon (Nightblood is better, but also not really repeatable it seems). Guns are long-range weapons, and explosives are area weapons, so both quite different categories.

No one says that Shardplate is 'all but indestructible', we all acknowledge that

1. 2-3 bullets to a section can destroy it.
2. Shardblades can break a section in a few blows.
3. Sustained attack with hammers and staves from Warform Singer (so ~2x human strength at least) can destroy a section, but it takes minutes not seconds.
4. F-pewter with a proper weapon could probably destroy a section faster, but it would still take tens of seconds. The bulk of the muscles would also limit them, so shardbearer could easily dodge, unless it was Full Feruchemist or they had medallions.
5. Duralumin-pewter with a proper weapon might destroy a section in one-two blow, but feats of Duralumin seem inconsistent and it might depend on amount of metal in metalborn's body.
6. Soulcasting can destroy plate (there is a WoB on this, but I cannot find it at the moment :/)

Shardplate also does grant superhuman strength exceeding anything else seen in Cosmere so far (Duralumin-pewter not withstanding, but that is one move thing, not sustained). At the very least strength of someone in sharplate is 10x ordinary human strenght and that is deadplate (but I would assume living plate to be comparable) beyond what Scadrial can offer. Speed and reflexes are not as extremely improved, but are still at least 2x improved, so comparable to burning pewter, so not really best in cosmere, but still respectable.

Stormlight healing is said in WoBs and shown in text to be on the same level as F-Gold and due to relative abundance of investiture on Roshar in effect functions as compounded Gold (possibly with exception of healing decapitation). So it is comparable to the very best healing cosmere has to offer.

For Radinat on 4th oath, in my opinion very few metalborn could touch them for following reasons:

1. Metalborn cannot afford to get hit, unless they have compounded Gold. This right off the bat forces them to either attack from distance (so guns) or to have F-steel, or atium (which might not be burnable by non natural-mistborn)
2. To get through plate requires either gun, Duralumin-steel push coins (maybe), Duralumin-pewter melee attack, or F-pewter.
3. To actually kill Radiant, you either need to remove their Stormlight (Chromium, force them to use it all up) or use aluminum to vital areas.

The gun seems like an obvious solution, however sprenblade can shapeshift and so far the only thing we have ever seen to damage sprenblade (altough it was Honorblade) is Nightblood, so I would expect sprenshield to withstand gunfire quite well. This means you need to fire from different angles faster than Radiant can move his shield, again forcing F-steel.

I think Mistborn with F-steel would have a chance, but some orders could still beat them, through good use of surges (abrasion, transformation, transportation, cohesion, gravitation would be useful in such fight). Mistborn without F-steel would lose against most orders, unless they resorted to stalling tactics, then it is about 6/4 (6 of the orders wins, the others are outlasted).

Full Feruchemist with enough speed might also win, but he has no good way to reach them in the air or cognitive, so orders with gravitation/transportation would still have an edge. An he would need to be very careful in close quarters, because sprenblade to spine would kill him anyway and abrasion could potentially be a big barrier.

Unchained Bondsmith can steal connection at his whim, it was clearly shown in RoW through Ishar and the fact that Melishi also saw Connection lines. If unchained Bondsmith touches you, you have big problems.

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

This opinion seems to be held despite individuals on Scadrial capable of destroying castles and buildings, moving faster than can be tracked, or healing from explosions and decapitations, and powerful enough to throw horses and split people and horses in two with a sword all at once. Even with the Wolverine like healiing provided by compounded Gold no other compounded metals could possibly have that level of power available to it because we don't have any example of it.

Kredik Shaw (if this is castle you mention) was destroyed only after Vin inhaled all the Mist and was in process of Ascending to Preservation, not really your usual cirsumstances. The building was a one time thing (Wax nearly depleted his entire stores) and it was a wooden building, if you forcibly remove the very things holding it together (nails and such) of course it will fall apart.

Faster than can be tracked is only Paalm (possible compounding, and based on experience with bendalloy bubble she is only sped up 11x most of the time) and Marasi (only for ~0,5 second, so not really enough time to kill someone in plate).

Healing from explosions is well withing limits of stormlight healing, provided you have enough stormlight (just as F-Gold needs large enough stores), decapitation was never demonstrated on-screen and Lord Ruler has vested interest in spreading misinformation about his capabilities (he claims to be a part of God afterall).

Thrown horses was Vin with duralumin, already unsually strong allomancer (something Kelsier notes in the first book) for a one time attack burning her entire steel reserve. In the same vein we could say that all Windrunners can dodge as easily as Kaladin does.

We also never see metalborn dig through solid stone and destroy hammer too heavy for two people to lift (~150 kg at least) in the process, and yet we do not say that Feruchemist with large enough store could not approach such feat (altough the bulk of muscle could make it more difficult for them).

13 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If it is not obvious I am not convinced at the majority opinion with the seeming idea that the Radiants can crush all their competition from Scadrial such that there is no contest. Honestly I think this topic was misnamed instead of being called Scadrian vs Rosharan magic it probably should have been called how Rosharan magic crushes Scadrian magic and why. I wish that I could say that this topic has been fair and balanced but all the contrary opiinions to the regular majority have been driven off. Not convinced but unwilling to go against the popular opinion. I hope I see something worth commenting on in the future but I wont hold my breath.

I am sorry you see it this way, however why did you not engage my post where I listed each individual order of Radiants against Mistborn (page 46) and dispute my claims? It is not like I said 'Radiant win lolz', I went through all 10 orders and try to present pros and cons of each order against Mistborn. You were active in the thread on the same day, but you did not bother to dispute my arguments. In that very post I came to conclusion that even 4th order Radiants, only about half the orders stands a good chance at winning, with the other orders either loosing or being outlasted by Mistborn. So to present that this thread is somehow overwhelmingly Rosharan biased seems not very well supported.

When large part of your statements rest on either unsupported conjectures (aluminum feruchemy feats, F-iron black holes, F-steel ultrasonic speeds) or bad physics (mass increasing with speed) you should not be surprised to see pushback. Publius' post was for example well supported, I merely pointed out some possible counters Roshar could deploy (suppressors), possible magic limitations (number of hemalurgic spikes in person) and logistic issues due to population size and rarity of metalborn. The basic idea still works, it is just not as overwhelming as portrayed in the first post in my opinion.

[Publius]

On 4/10/2021 at 2:51 PM, BenduLuke said:

Where do you get the idea that running Mach 2 would create hazardous levels of Friction? Besides any material or armor that reduces wind resitance would enable greater speeds without risk.

The heat and friction are easily solvable.
1. Store heat with F-Brass.
2. As @BenduLuke suggested, wear appropriate protective clothing/armor.

Edit:
Alternative means:
Acknowledge that you might become a human torch while dabbing on the proverbial tortoise-shelled-Rosharan-slowpokes and Heal yourself with F-Gold.

Edited April 11, 2021 by Publius

[Frustration]

Just now, Publius said:

The heat and friction are easily solvable.
1. Store heat with F-Brass.
2. As @BenduLuke suggested, wear appropriate protective clothing/armor.

You would hit a limit at around mach one just due to the amount lost, and even without heat, the force the wind would exert on your body is not something they can handle

[Publius]

A & F Pewter strength can help overcome resistance and, as I noted in an edit to my previous post, F-Bronze could assist in avoiding the deleterious effects of heat. F-Gold can also heal from the negative effects thereof.

Finally, WoBs can say anything they like, but Marasi noted absolutely nothing in the way of heating up due to her speed or having to deal with wind resistance. I'll be far more inclined to worry about air friction if it actually makes it into the books when Metallic Artists go fast.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Publius

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Publius said:

A & F Pewter strength can help overcome resistance and, as I noted in an edit to my previous post, F-Bronze could assist in avoiding the deleterious effects of heat. F-Gold can also heal from the negative effects thereof.

So they need A-steel and pewter, and F-brass, steel and Gold

Is the max Medalion at three or Four?

Either way you would need an ideal twinborn combination with one of the rarest medallion sets to pull that off.

7 minutes ago, Publius said:

Finally, WoBs can say anything they like, but Marasi noted absolutely nothing in the way of heating up due to her speed or having to deal with wind resistance. I'll be far more inclined to worry about air friction if it actually makes it into the books when Metallic Artists go fast.

Marasi was also tapping everything

[Publius]

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Marasi was also tapping everything

But she was not storing anything, such as Heat via F-Bronze. Marasi did not experience problematic heat despite moving at your estimated Mach 7. She didn't even comment on becoming uncomfortably warm. In fact, she said nothing, whatsoever, about heat.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Publius said:

But she was not storing anything, such as Heat via F-Bronze. Marasi did not experience problematic heat despite moving at your estimated Mach 7. She didn't even comment on becoming uncomfortably warm. In fact, she said nothing, whatsoever, about heat.

Because tapping heat could make you immune to it, or at least resistant

Spoiler

Thoughtful Spurts

If tapping heat means your own body gets hotter, does it also mean you become immune to hot temperatures so long as you're tapping it, or should you fill heat and grow colder for that to happen?

Brandon Sanderson

As everything in Feruchemy, you become immune to the effects of the ability only. Like weight doesn't crush you, but at the same time doesn't have a net gain in strength. Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

[Publius]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Because tapping heat could make you immune to it, or at least resistant

 

No, you've got it backwards.
1. Storing heat cools you down
2. Tapping heat heats you up
Since Marasi was not storing, she necessarily was not capable of cooling herself off.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Publius said:

No, you've got it backwards.
1. Storing heat cools you down
2. Tapping heat heats you up
Since Marasi was not storing, she necessarily was not capable of cooling herself off.

Tapping weight gives you the ability to handle that weight

Ergo

Tapping heat gives you the ability to handel that heat

[Bejarden]

Doesn’t weight give you mass which would auto give you the ability to handle the weight that comes with it.

But heat would not change your internal body structure right?

I could be completely off the mark here and I don’t really know any physics but would that make sense

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Doesn’t weight give you mass which would auto give you the ability to handle the weight that comes with it.

But heat would not change your internal body structure right?

I could be completely off the mark here and I don’t really know any physics but would that make sense

Weight does not change you mass