Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If you mean by a strait fight that a mistborn would fight like a radiant then yes they would lose. I saw a martial arts movie recently where the new student challenged his black belt master to one on one combat and they set up to fight when the student pulled a pistol and shot the master in the head because he knew he would lose hand to hand. There is no such thing as a strait fight. In a fight to the death if you don't cheat in whatever way possible you are not trying hard enough.

This is at the heart of the issue. Sure the Radiant has more raw power but why would any Mistborn ever do a straight fight with someone who is armored and armed with a weapon they can't Push/Pull? That would be the Mistborn intentionally putting themselves in a disadvantageous position. Mistborn even try to avoid a straight fight with other Mistborn and work the situation to their advantage. No Mistborn would be stupid enough to go straight at a Radiant. During the early stages of the fight, Radiants have massive advantages in attack and defense. However the longer the fight goes on the more things start shifting towards the Mistborn. Other than the Bondsmith, a Radiant will run out of Investiture (thus losing Surges, healing, and repairing Plate) long before the Mistborn. 

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

We need a setup so we can accuratly measure the strength of our two combatants for their inevitable face off.

How would you propose this setup. There is no such thing as a fair fight. Environment will heavily affect how any Mistborn/Radiant fight goes. Open field in the day? Advantage to the Radiant. City at night? Advantage to the Mistborn. There are many factors in a fight that affect the outcomes. This is why I think it's ridiculous to always say a Radiant will win. Even Brandon has said circumstances and Order would affect who won between a Radiant and Mistborn

[Lemiltock]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

your right a pewter arm wearing aluminum is immune to the magic of a shardblade cutting him and he still has his strength which he can use, but a windrunner in aluminum can't use gravity or adhesion anywhere the aluminum is. Nor will any projected surge work in the direction of the aluminum, but I am not sure if a coin shot can still steel push in the direction  aluminum armor covers. Aluminum blocks lashings just like it blocks forgery.

Not immune to a shardblade, resistant, and the shardblade has enough mass and an edge to cut alluminium, theres a reason the light metal is not used for armour.

It will only block lashing being placed throygh the alluminium, and given theirs holes it wont even do that well. Look at the scene in oathbringer with the soulcaster in a room coated in alluminium, it didnt stop surgrbinding within, just adds resistamce passing through. And alluminium wont stop a blade of any kind, or mace, or axe etc etc.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You are also right that Aluminum alone wont remove stormlight without the radiant being pierced by it, but it can be used to handicap an opponent while stormlight is neutralize or removed some other way. There is also the possibility that being pierced by aluminum would neutralize stormlight just like it neutralizes metals when burned.

It wont remove stormlight, itll stop them healing while its in but thats it, you also need to stap a radiant in shardplate and the aluminium will bounce off at best and bend at worst.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Are you sure a rioter can still riot or would the aluminum limit the direction that they can riot depending on where the aluminum is?

Allumimium acts as a resitance field, so the rioeter could riot, just not through the aluminium, the net would likly do nothing given the holes, but investiture has a higher resistance path through alluminium. 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

your right a pewter arm wearing aluminum is immune to the magic of a shardblade cutting him and he still has his strength which he can use, but a windrunner in aluminum can't use gravity or adhesion anywhere the aluminum is. Nor will any projected surge work in the direction of the aluminum, but I am not sure if a coin shot can still steel push in the direction  aluminum armor covers. Aluminum blocks lashings just like it blocks forgery.

You are also right that Aluminum alone wont remove stormlight without the radiant being pierced by it, but it can be used to handicap an opponent while stormlight is neutralize or removed some other way. There is also the possibility that being pierced by aluminum would neutralize stormlight just like it neutralizes metals when burned.

Are you sure a rioter can still riot or would the aluminum limit the direction that they can riot depending on where the aluminum is?

NO IT DOESN'T

listen to me please

even if you shoved alluminum into a Radiant their Stormlight will not be depleted any more than if the blade was iron.

 

Now if we cover a Radiant in aluminum, they can still lash their plate, and so, they wil still move EVEN if it is directly into the aluminum.

A Rioter can wear an aluminum plated hat and still riot, their will be "Weirdness" but that could mean anything

Okay, now that we have set the record straight let's move on.

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

How would you propose this setup. There is no such thing as a fair fight. Environment will heavily affect how any Mistborn/Radiant fight goes. Open field in the day? Advantage to the Radiant. City at night? Advantage to the Mistborn. There are many factors in a fight that affect the outcomes. This is why I think it's ridiculous to always say a Radiant will win. Even Brandon has said circumstances and Order would affect who won between a Radiant and Mistborn

If you have a valid situation where the Mistborn could win please share it instead of a vauge, what's the situation. Tell us the situation where it could work, I would love for this to be a discussion not an arguement

[Lemiltock]

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is at the heart of the issue. Sure the Radiant has more raw power but why would any Mistborn ever do a straight fight with someone who is armored and armed with a weapon they can't Push/Pull? That would be the Mistborn intentionally putting themselves in a disadvantageous position. Mistborn even try to avoid a straight fight with other Mistborn and work the situation to their advantage. No Mistborn would be stupid enough to go straight at a Radiant. During the early stages of the fight, Radiants have massive advantages in attack and defense. However the longer the fight goes on the more things start shifting towards the Mistborn. Other than the Bondsmith, a Radiant will run out of Investiture (thus losing Surges, healing, and repairing Plate) long before the Mistborn. 

A mistborn also runs out of metals, they dont have an infinite supply, and given jasnah fought for hours id say neither will last longer investiture wise than the others.

 

Sure a mistborn might try hit and run, but as already stated, they cant do much damage and the radiant will eventually catch them, either by running them down (mistborn burning their investiture faster) or by catching them with stormlight and shardplate.

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

How would you propose this setup. There is no such thing as a fair fight. Environment will heavily affect how any Mistborn/Radiant fight goes. Open field in the day? Advantage to the Radiant. City at night? Advantage to the Mistborn. There are many factors in a fight that affect the outcomes. This is why I think it's ridiculous to always say a Radiant will win. Even Brandon has said circumstances and Order would affect who won between a Radiant and Mistborn

For a 4th oath radiant it doesnt matter how fair, thats the point. The only way a mistborn wins is while the radiant sleeps and they are always covered by shardplate amd have a non sleeping spren so the chances of getting their one hit kill in the tiny eye slit of invisible armour is almost 0

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Not immune to a shardblade, resistant, and the shardblade has enough mass and an edge to cut alluminium, theres a reason the light metal is not used for armour.

It will only block lashing being placed throygh the alluminium, and given theirs holes it wont even do that well. Look at the scene in oathbringer with the soulcaster in a room coated in alluminium, it didnt stop surgrbinding within, just adds resistamce passing through. And alluminium wont stop a blade of any kind, or mace, or axe etc etc.

It wont remove stormlight, itll stop them healing while its in but thats it, you also need to stap a radiant in shardplate and the aluminium will bounce off at best and bend at worst.

Allumimium acts as a resitance field, so the rioeter could riot, just not through the aluminium, the net would likly do nothing given the holes, but investiture has a higher resistance path through alluminium. 

Aluminum is immune to the magical cutting aspect of a shardblade and its thickness or lacing would provide for physical resistance to cutting. Also when Mistborn use it they usually use it in combination with other metals so the aluminum itself doesn't need to pierce the shard plate it just has to be on something that does. welded onto a bullet, sharpened disc, dart or some other piercing projectile which is pushed, pulled, shot, stabbed or any combination of them.

Aluminum room surge within works. Aluminum cord entangling net (think gladiator net) surgebinding becomes complicated at best.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is immune to the magical cutting aspect of a shardblade and its thickness or lacing would provide for physical resistance to cutting. Also when Mistborn use it they usually use it in combination with other metals so the aluminum itself doesn't need to pierce the shard plate it just has to be on something that does. welded onto a bullet, sharpened disc, dart or some other piercing projectile which is pushed, pulled, shot, stabbed or any combination of them.

Aluminum room surge within works. Aluminum cord entangling net (think gladiator net) surgebinding becomes complicated at best.

Dalinar held off a Chasmfiend almost 72 feet tall, the aluminum will get shreded.

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

If you have a valid situation where the Mistborn could win please share it instead of a vauge, what's the situation. Tell us the situation where it could work, I would love for this to be a discussion not an arguement

City at night. Plenty of things to Push/Pull and buildings to brace with. Plenty of hiding places. Stoneward. Using the buildings as a brace, Pushes would be able to hit a lot harder as it will be the Radiant's mass against the buildings which I would put money on hitting Plate hard enough to crack. A Stoneward would likely use up tons of Stormlight if they tried dropping the buildings with their Surges. They would have low visibility. Tin and Bronze would let the Mistborn keep track of the Radiant. The Mistborn would have plenty of anchors to utilize. Even without Atium, Electrum could be used to avoid the Stonward. Bendalloy could be used for unexpected repositioning by a Mistborn. If a Mistborn needed to do a really big hit, like shattering Plate, they have Duralumin. Chromium is dangerous for a Radiant, especially if they don't have their Blade summoned for any reason such as they dropped it because a Radiant can't summon their Blade while being Leached. And then their is Atium which Brandon has outright said a Seer could beat a 3rd Ideal Kaladin with. You may not agree with this, but it is a plausible scenario. 

24 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

A mistborn also runs out of metals, they dont have an infinite supply, and given jasnah fought for hours id say neither will last longer investiture wise than the others.

Vin often kept enough Pewter, the fastest burning of the basic eight, on her to burn for hours. Jasnah ran out of Stormlight in under 2 hours after only healing her eye, repairing her armor once, and one use of Soulcasting. Primarily she just used it to give her stamina while she slaughtered non-Invested soldiers.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

City at night. Plenty of things to Push/Pull and buildings to brace with. Plenty of hiding places. Stoneward. Using the buildings as a brace, Pushes would be able to hit a lot harder as it will be the Radiant's mass against the buildings which I would put money on hitting Plate hard enough to crack. A Stoneward would likely use up tons of Stormlight if they tried dropping the buildings with their Surges. They would have low visibility. Tin and Bronze would let the Mistborn keep track of the Radiant. The Mistborn would have plenty of anchors to utilize. Even without Atium, Electrum could be used to avoid the Stonward. Bendalloy could be used for unexpected repositioning by a Mistborn. If a Mistborn needed to do a really big hit, like shattering Plate, they have Duralumin. Chromium is dangerous for a Radiant, especially if they don't have their Blade summoned for any reason such as they dropped it because a Radiant can't summon their Blade while being Leached. And then their is Atium which Brandon has outright said a Seer could beat a 3rd Ideal Kaladin with. You may not agree with this, but it is a plausible scenario. 

Possible, that is much more likely, esspecially as Radiant's don't have sensory boosts, but their glow will make them hard to look at which will be a problem.

However using the building behind and hitting the Radiant with a coin puts the pressure on all three, and the Mistborn's body will give out long before Plate or a building would.

More likely indeed.

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Possible, that is much more likely, esspecially as Radiant's don't have sensory boosts, but their glow will make them hard to look at which will be a problem.

However using the building behind and hitting the Radiant with a coin puts the pressure on all three, and the Mistborn's body will give out long before Plate or a building would.

More likely indeed.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I doubt Radiants glow bright enough to hurt a Mistborn's eyes considering they would use Tin even during the day. And I don't think that simply hitting a Radiant hard with something would be too strenuous on the Mistborn with Pewter as there were scenes where Kel and Vin put themselves at the focal point of much greater stresses and could still fight after.

But again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[BenduLuke]

A highly skilled martial pewter compounder with aluminum twined blade vs dust bringer 4th ideal.

Comparable strength, speed and durability. Long battle . Pewter gets burned but if pierced by the blade the dustbringer gets confused because they lose their identity and with it perhaps their bond with their Spren then they are led off captive with no will to resist.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

A highly skilled martial pewter compounder with aluminum twined blade vs dust bringer 4th ideal.

Comparable strength, speed and durability. Long battle . Pewter gets burned but if pierced by the blade the dustbringer gets confused because they lose their identity and with it perhaps their bond with their Spren then they are led off captive with no will to resist.

Hemalurgy requires peircing the heart, and is something Stormlight can heal, and that isn't how Identity works.

[Lemiltock]

49 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is immune to the magical cutting aspect of a shardblade and its thickness or lacing would provide for physical resistance to cutting. Also when Mistborn use it they usually use it in combination with other metals so the aluminum itself doesn't need to pierce the shard plate it just has to be on something that does. welded onto a bullet, sharpened disc, dart or some other piercing projectile which is pushed, pulled, shot, stabbed or any combination of them.

Yes but not the physical action of a two handed sword cutting it. So the other metals get passed through because they dont have rhe alluminum resistance, and the soft aluminum gets destoryed by a two hand sword and a superhuman strength pushing kn it.

 

The bullets/disks cant get through a 4th oaths plate and it doesnt matter what they coat it with.

Quote

Aluminum room surge within works. Aluminum cord entangling net (think gladiator net) surgebinding becomes complicated at best.

Yer, except the superhumanly strong radiant rips the net to shreds, and themats even assuming they can get the net over the radiant.

42 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

City at night. Plenty of things to Push/Pull and buildings to brace with. Plenty of hiding places. Stoneward. Using the buildings as a brace, Pushes would be able to hit a lot harder as it will be the Radiant's mass against the buildings which I would put money on hitting Plate hard enough to crack. A Stoneward would likely use up tons of Stormlight if they tried dropping the buildings with their Surges. They would have low visibility. Tin and Bronze would let the Mistborn keep track of the Radiant. The Mistborn would have plenty of anchors to utilize. Even without Atium, Electrum could be used to avoid the Stonward. Bendalloy could be used for unexpected repositioning by a Mistborn. If a Mistborn needed to do a really big hit, like shattering Plate, they have Duralumin. Chromium is dangerous for a Radiant, especially if they don't have their Blade summoned for any reason such as they dropped it because a Radiant can't summon their Blade while being Leached. And then their is Atium which Brandon has outright said a Seer could beat a 3rd Ideal Kaladin with. You may not agree with this, but it is a plausible scenario. 

Yer a 3rd ideal, which is not new information from row, shardplate nullifies the offence of the mistborn. They do not have the stopping power to deal with it. If they push them into a building they get pushed back into one and a sharplate wearing stormlight holding radiant has more durability than a pewter burning mistbron.

Quote

Vin often kept enough Pewter, the fastest burning of the basic eight, on her to burn for hours. Jasnah ran out of Stormlight in under 2 hours after only healing her eye, repairing her armor once, and one use of Soulcasting. Primarily she just used it to give her stamina while she slaughtered non-Invested soldiers.

She was drinking multiple vials, and she was exaughsted after. Stormlight heals the exaughstion not just allowing you to ignore it. And the radiant doesnt need their surges to win, they walk down the mistborn whos burning everhthing to stay alive while the radiant pasivley uses their stormlight even if stormlight runs out faster the mistborn needs to push at 100% to stay alive the radiant needs to run and swing their sword. So id even bet on the mistborn running out first even if they dont die to a shardblade before that point.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Lemiltock
Typo

[Kuldak]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Quote

One of the greatest things about Brandon's magic is that it has limits so finding the path to victory is what is always interesting to me.

Your ignoring the limits of allomancy significantly. A radiants powers where designed for combat a mistborns where designed for theives.

Mistborn weren't designed as thieves. They just happen to be assassins in the books because the society they live in finds more value in assassins than soldiers. The world was beaten into submission by the Fullborn Rashik centuries ago. There is no real standing military for them to be a part of, nor anyone to fight in conventional war if there was. There is however a lot of political infighting, and an immortal tyrant who discourages open fighting between his noble houses, whom the Mistborn are generally all members of due to the genetic nature of Allomancy.

 

Attrition is how Mistborn beat Radiants. All evidence points to Allomancy being much more resource efficient than Surgebinding. A mistborn will have a few vials of metal flakes on them and it lasts hours. We see Radiants burning through bags of stormlight in minutes. The only time we ever see Mistborn using an even remotely similar weight in metals is when planning extended pewter drag runs, and then it lasted for many hours of flared use on one of the faster burning metals. Mistborn have a distinct edge in the attrition side of things. Couple that with chromium to directly drain stormlight any time the Mistborn touches the their opponent/plate/blade, and the Mistborn has a decent shot at winning.

 

We have seen too many examples of skilled fighters touching their opponent's shardblades, even living ones, mid combat to discount a pewter enhanced mistborn doing the same for long enough for their chromium touch to affect the shardblade potentially making it disappear or otherwise harming it. Pure living investiture probably would react poorly to having its investiture drained.

Flared Pewter would put the Mistborn on a close enough strength level to a plate wearing radiant, for them to grapple for a few seconds and drain the Radiant with chromium. none of the plate strength feats are that far above what pewter is shown to be capable of, with the possible exception of Dalinar and the chasmfiend, which is noted as remarkable by everyone who witnessed it.

Bendaloy speed bubbles allow a Mistborn to quickly reposition and disorient a Radiant, as well as allowing them to potentially shoot coins/bullets to weaken plate/require healing, both of which further drains stormlight.

Atium is essentially an autowin for the Mistborn, if they are allowed access to it, as it will allow them to touch the radiant to drain their stormlight without any fear of being hit back. 

Electrum, while not as powerful as atium, would allow the Mistborn to dodge incoming attacks and avoid the shardblade to a large degree.

None of those are very niche uses, nor particularly complex, there are likely many other examples out there. Now I'm not saying that the Mistborn will always win and certainly they would be very hard pressed to win against certain orders of knights, most notably those with access to gravitation, but it is by no means as one sided as you are making it out to be.

 

11 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Hit and run wont work against shard plate, a radiant with stormlight and shardplatr moves faster than the mistborn, so the run doesnt work very well. Can the mistborn run and survive, maybe, but as soom as they engage in anyform of combat they lose

I've seen this come up several times. Please point to actual evidence from the books that plate/stormlight make someone faster than someone using pewter, which is also specifically noted as improving speed, agility and reaction time. Kaladin's speed when fighting with a spear is largely attributable to his individual skill as a fighter, and being constantly rejuvenated by stormlight. The same goes for Szeth, he is a highly skilled fighter, trained in both a close quarters martial art, and in using his surges in fights. He also is generally fighting people who have no idea what surgebinding is, or its capabilities, and so surprises them when he tanks hits and jumps on walls. None of the fights with shardbearers we've seen make it sound like they are particularly fast. Faster than someone wearing a full set of regular platemail certainly, but not enough that someone burning pewter would be completely outclassed.

[basement_boi]

On 12/5/2020 at 11:23 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

If Dalinar at Oath 5 is even half as terrifying as Ishar was onscreen I'd give him nearly even odds vs. Rashek. 

You neglect the fact that Dalinar has made the oaths that the Stormfather requires, while Ishar didn’t need to. Dalinar could not use his abilities to divide, as said in the second ideal of the Bondsmiths.

[Lemiltock]

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Mistborn weren't designed as thieves. They just happen to be assassins in the books because the society they live in finds more value in assassins than soldiers. The world was beaten into submission by the Fullborn Rashik centuries ago. There is no real standing military for them to be a part of, nor anyone to fight in conventional war if there was. There is however a lot of political infighting, and an immortal tyrant who discourages open fighting between his noble houses, whom the Mistborn are generally all members of due to the genetic nature of Allomancy.

Quote

Questioner

Where did you come up with the idea for Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It's a combination of several things. One is I started with wanting a group of powers that would complement a gang of thieves. So I designed the powers to work within the roles of a thieving crew. The burning metals came from reading about biology and metabolism and it felt very natural to me because that's how we get our energy as human beings. The whole connection of the metals and the visualization stuff came from mixing the periodic table of the elements with alchemy. All of those things kind of spun together to make it.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

it was designed for a gang of theives...

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Attrition is how Mistborn beat Radiants. All evidence points to Allomancy being much more resource efficient than Surgebinding. A mistborn will have a few vials of metal flakes on them and it lasts hours. We see Radiants burning through bags of stormlight in minutes. The only time we ever see Mistborn using an even remotely similar weight in metals is when planning extended pewter drag runs, and then it lasted for many hours of flared use on one of the faster burning metals. Mistborn have a distinct edge in the attrition side of things. Couple that with chromium to directly drain stormlight any time the Mistborn touches the their opponent/plate/blade, and the Mistborn has a decent shot at winning.

Atium buys them seconds. How do they break shardpalte without using all of their metals? Radiants fight in wars, battles that last hours at a time, the idea that theyll burn through stormlight faster than a mistborn through metals is absurd.

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

 

We have seen too many examples of skilled fighters touching their opponent's shardblades, even living ones, mid combat to discount a pewter enhanced mistborn doing the same for long enough for their chromium touch to affect the shardblade potentially making it disappear or otherwise harming it. Pure living investiture probably would react poorly to having its investiture drained.

You mean Kaladin and Dalinar? The move that Zahel said was practically suicide, yer im totes gonna treat that as a real strategy, its a hailmary at best that has only work for two of the best non immortal fighters alive. And a hand would react poorly to having its sould cut...

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Flared Pewter would put the Mistborn on a close enough strength level to a plate wearing radiant, for them to grapple for a few seconds and drain the Radiant with chromium. none of the plate strength feats are that far above what pewter is shown to be capable of, with the possible exception of Dalinar and the chasmfiend, which is noted as remarkable by everyone who witnessed it.

Ummm dalinar holding of a chasmfield is significantly more than what weve seen a pewter user do, also  why grappel when you have a shapeshifting death stick, get in close, start to drain  shardblade to the arm/face game over

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Bendaloy speed bubbles allow a Mistborn to quickly reposition and disorient a Radiant, as well as allowing them to potentially shoot coins/bullets to weaken plate/require healing, both of which further drains stormlight.

Either the speed bubble is close enough the radiant is inside  or its far enougj tbey live a little longer, they cant shoot througj the speed bubble with any reliability, this strategy works aginst them in close as they can now no longer run away very far.

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Atium is essentially an autowin for the Mistborn, if they are allowed access to it, as it will allow them to touch the radiant to drain their stormlight without any fear of being hit back. 

No its not, they dont have the stopping power to beat a radiant, if they live 5 seconds longer is rather irrelivant, and evening seeing the future they still need to get inside the range of a twohand sword/spear against a superfast opponent. Seeing the future wont stop  a professional boxxer from punching an amature in the face.

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

Electrum, while not as powerful as atium, would allow the Mistborn to dodge incoming attacks and avoid the shardblade to a large degree.

They still cant get close to attack, they can avoid, but not dodge with any reliability, while close enough to touch. And once they touch theyre teathered to a deathstick weilding soldier.

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

None of those are very niche uses, nor particularly complex, there are likely many other examples out there. Now I'm not saying that the Mistborn will always win and certainly they would be very hard pressed to win against certain orders of knights, most notably those with access to gravitation, but it is by no means as one sided as you are making it out to be.

Against a 4th oath radiant  they basically cannot win, because they cant get through shardplate with any reliability or methods tbat dont involve them dead (touching teathers them and its either goodbye arm or goodbye soul)

19 minutes ago, Kuldak said:

I've seen this come up several times. Please point to actual evidence from the books that plate/stormlight make someone faster than someone using pewter, which is also specifically noted as improving speed, agility and reaction time. Kaladin's speed when fighting with a spear is largely attributable to his individual skill as a fighter, and being constantly rejuvenated by stormlight. The same goes for Szeth, he is a highly skilled fighter, trained in both a close quarters martial art, and in using his surges in fights. He also is generally fighting people who have no idea what surgebinding is, or its capabilities, and so surprises them when he tanks hits and jumps on walls. None of the fights with shardbearers we've seen make it sound like they are particularly fast. Faster than someone wearing a full set of regular platemail certainly, but not enough that someone burning pewter would be completely outclassed.

Dalinar stopped a chasm fiend, plate is litterally said to improve strength and speed, look at how when Renarin is learning plate he needs to be careful not to crush things. The strength of plate likely outweighs pewter, pewter arms dont need to be careful when burning puter to crush objects in their hands, or jump across chasms, hell vin managed what a 6ft jump which while impressive is nothing on plate. Then the added durabiltity, stamina and reflexes. Pewter also has rhe doenside of not healing, so a punch ti shardplate maybe cracks it, but they break their arm in the process.

[Jace21]

Hi Everyone!

Its been a hot minute since I posted on the Shard, but I do love the classic Mistborn vs Radiant battle thread.

Honestly though, RoW didn't really move the needle for me much. I already suspected Radiants got Plate at the 4th ideal, which is the only major revelation that affects battle prowess, at least in my opinion. So if you give them roughly equal resources and they fought at a location that didn't advantage either side, I'd rank them as follows.

5th Ideal Radiant > 4th Ideal Radiant = Highly Skilled Mistborn > Mistborn > 3rd Ideal Radiant 

Lack of plate is what screws over the 3rd Idea radiant for me. The healing factor from Stormlight is amazing, but we know it can run out and an average mistborn should be able to pin cushion the radiant while kiting back without much difficulty.

Once the Radiant gets Plate, I think the average 4th Ideal Radiant has a huge edge over an average Mistborn. Plate is just too durable and most Mistborn lack the skill to wear down a Radiant enough without also burning through all their metal. Which would leave them as both normal guys, but with one of them having a soul-cutting sword.

4th Ideal Radiant vs Skilled Mistborn (a la Vin or Kelsier) is a difficult one. I think we can all agree Vin and Kel are far from ordinary, and someone of their skill, who can manipulate a storm of metal objects aimed at their target and constantly change their own position as well, can deal with Plate more easily than other Mistborn (though still not particularly well). That said, they are far less durable. I have them at equal in my rankings above, but thats a generalization. Something not particularly focused on in this thread is the idea that while the surges each help counter the Mistborns skills fairly well, no Radiant has more than 2. So while I would back some orders like Windrunners and Skybreakers to beat a Kel/Vin type most of the time, I doubt they'd win 10 times out of 10. Likewise I would back a Vin or a Kel to take a 4th Ideal Willshaper/Truthwatcher in a fight (based on what we know of those orders) the majority of the time, but likewise not every time. 

A long-winded explanation of saying that it would depend on the Order for me, but as a generalization I think a top-tier mistborn is about equal to a 4th Ideal Radiant.

If we include Atium, it would likely boost the Mistborns chances in each scenario, but not enough for me to change the ranking unless we include it in unrealistically large quantities.

Considering either side with unlimited investiture serves no practical purpose in my mind, it would just be a stalemate.

And a Fullborn stomps all of them. A regular Feruchemist probably could too if they had enough attributes stored, but that's less likely. With a Fullborn, it's not close, Atium or no Atium. 

[StanLemon]

@Jace21 Your response is a breath of fresh air

[XS-Terrain]

31 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Hi Everyone!

Its been a hot minute since I posted on the Shard, but I do love the classic Mistborn vs Radiant battle thread.

Honestly though, RoW didn't really move the needle for me much. I already suspected Radiants got Plate at the 4th ideal, which is the only major revelation that affects battle prowess, at least in my opinion. So if you give them roughly equal resources and they fought at a location that didn't advantage either side, I'd rank them as follows.

5th Ideal Radiant > 4th Ideal Radiant = Highly Skilled Mistborn > Mistborn > 3rd Ideal Radiant 

Lack of plate is what screws over the 3rd Idea radiant for me. The healing factor from Stormlight is amazing, but we know it can run out and an average mistborn should be able to pin cushion the radiant while kiting back without much difficulty.

Once the Radiant gets Plate, I think the average 4th Ideal Radiant has a huge edge over an average Mistborn. Plate is just too durable and most Mistborn lack the skill to wear down a Radiant enough without also burning through all their metal. Which would leave them as both normal guys, but with one of them having a soul-cutting sword.

4th Ideal Radiant vs Skilled Mistborn (a la Vin or Kelsier) is a difficult one. I think we can all agree Vin and Kel are far from ordinary, and someone of their skill, who can manipulate a storm of metal objects aimed at their target and constantly change their own position as well, can deal with Plate more easily than other Mistborn (though still not particularly well). That said, they are far less durable. I have them at equal in my rankings above, but thats a generalization. Something not particularly focused on in this thread is the idea that while the surges each help counter the Mistborns skills fairly well, no Radiant has more than 2. So while I would back some orders like Windrunners and Skybreakers to beat a Kel/Vin type most of the time, I doubt they'd win 10 times out of 10. Likewise I would back a Vin or a Kel to take a 4th Ideal Willshaper/Truthwatcher in a fight (based on what we know of those orders) the majority of the time, but likewise not every time. 

A long-winded explanation of saying that it would depend on the Order for me, but as a generalization I think a top-tier mistborn is about equal to a 4th Ideal Radiant.

If we include Atium, it would likely boost the Mistborns chances in each scenario, but not enough for me to change the ranking unless we include it in unrealistically large quantities.

Considering either side with unlimited investiture serves no practical purpose in my mind, it would just be a stalemate.

And a Fullborn stomps all of them. A regular Feruchemist probably could too if they had enough attributes stored, but that's less likely. With a Fullborn, it's not close, Atium or no Atium. 

14 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@Jace21 Your response is a breath of fresh air

Honestly though, like I stopped responding because everybody just seemed so entrenched in their positions but it's nice to hear a fresh perspective every once in a while.

That said, I do still have some questions/objections lol. Overall, I generally agree with your statements, but with some caveats.

First of all, because of Kaladin's statement in RoW that most Radiants don't ever reach the 4th or 5th Ideal, I think it is only fair to compare them to a more skilled Mistborn. The best of the Radiants should only be fighting the best of the Mistborn.

Secondly, Kelsier and Vin both have pretty diluted bloodlines, so despite their skill, they probably aren't very powerful. Outside of Elend, who was relatively unskilled, we haven't really seen a Mistborn with the full power of a bead of Lerasium. We don't know what the 5th Ideal does yet, but tentatively I would place a theoretical skilled and powerful Mistborn (from early in the Lord Ruler's reign, perhaps) closer to that 5th Ideal area.

Thirdly, and this is not so much a problem I have but just something I want to mention, I think that guns would probably make breaking Shardplate a lot easier, so if we're talking about a Lerasium bead Mistborn from Era 2 against an RoW Radiant I would put the Mistborn as pretty far ahead, as I think the gun gives a huge advantage.

Edited December 11, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[Lemiltock]

10 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Honestly though, like I stopped responding because everybody just seemed so entrenched in their positions but it's nice to hear a fresh perspective every once in a while.

That said, I do still have some questions/objections lol. Overall, I generally agree with your statements, but with some caveats.

First of all, because of Kaladin's statement in RoW that most Radiants don't ever reach the 4th or 5th Ideal, I think it is only fair to compare them to a more skilled Mistborn. The best of the Radiants should only be fighting the best of the Mistborn.

Secondly, Kelsier and Vin both have pretty diluted bloodlines, so despite their skill, they probably aren't very powerful. Outside of Elend, who was relatively unskilled, we haven't really seen a Mistborn with the full power of a bead of Lerasium. We don't know what the 5th Ideal does yet, but tentatively I would place a theoretical skilled and powerful Mistborn (from early in the Lord Ruler's reign, perhaps) closer to that 5th Ideal area.

Thirdly, and this is not so much a problem I have but just something I want to mention, I think that guns would probably make breaking Shardplate a lot easier, so if we're talking about a Lerasium bead Mistborn from Era 2 against an RoW Radiant I would put the Mistborn as pretty far ahead, as I think the gun gives a huge advantage.

So basically give the mistborn huge buffs and they win against an average 4th oath radiant?

The biggest problem with guns is hitting the target. A fast moving almost impenotrable target with say a shardkite shield covering center of mass and theyvd got to hit the arms and legs. 

Raising im the oaths also has nothing to do with skill, look at shallan, or jasnah  they both can barly wield a sword and are both 4th oath (i think shallan is but she may be 3rd) oath!= skill 

The problem mkstborn have with 4th oath radiants is the plate  they have no repiable way to break it without leaving themselves in a worse position. Mistborn are awesome, their powers IMHO are cooler than stormlight+sprenblade+liveplate but they dont have the offence or defence to deal with it, the best counters ive seen has been buff the mistborn which at its heart is admiting a mistborn cant take on a 4th oath radaint (assuming equal skill)

On the note of 4th oath radiants, there where hundreds if not thousands st the time of thr tecreance, far more IMHO than there are mistborn on scadrial in era 1 let alone later.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Kuldak said:

Flared Pewter would put the Mistborn on a close enough strength level to a plate wearing radiant, for them to grapple for a few seconds and drain the Radiant with chromium. none of the plate strength feats are that far above what pewter is shown to be capable of, with the possible exception of Dalinar and the chasmfiend, which is noted as remarkable by everyone who witnessed it.

Bendaloy speed bubbles allow a Mistborn to quickly reposition and disorient a Radiant, as well as allowing them to potentially shoot coins/bullets to weaken plate/require healing, both of which further drains stormlight.

Atium is essentially an autowin for the Mistborn, if they are allowed access to it, as it will allow them to touch the radiant to drain their stormlight without any fear of being hit back. 

Electrum, while not as powerful as atium, would allow the Mistborn to dodge incoming attacks and avoid the shardblade to a large degree.

None of those are very niche uses, nor particularly complex, there are likely many other examples out there. Now I'm not saying that the Mistborn will always win and certainly they would be very hard pressed to win against certain orders of knights, most notably those with access to gravitation, but it is by no means as one sided as you are making it out to be.

 

I've seen this come up several times. Please point to actual evidence from the books that plate/stormlight make someone faster than someone using pewter, which is also specifically noted as improving speed, agility and reaction time. Kaladin's speed when fighting with a spear is largely attributable to his individual skill as a fighter, and being constantly rejuvenated by stormlight. The same goes for Szeth, he is a highly skilled fighter, trained in both a close quarters martial art, and in using his surges in fights. He also is generally fighting people who have no idea what surgebinding is, or its capabilities, and so surprises them when he tanks hits and jumps on walls. None of the fights with shardbearers we've seen make it sound like they are particularly fast. Faster than someone wearing a full set of regular platemail certainly, but not enough that someone burning pewter would be completely outclassed.

You want an example? Okay

WoK

Dalinar sees Elhokar fall, runs hundreds of feet, and stops the claw of a creature almost 72 feet tall. In a matter of seconds. No Mistborn beats that. And while remarkable to those watching we hear time and time again that modern shardbearers rely too much on the advantage they have over regular soldiers, Dalinar is so far ahead because he took the time to learn.

 

In addition Kelsier was almost beaten by eight regular people, while a standard shardbearer kills hundreds without a thought.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[Jace21]

51 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

@Jace21 Your response is a breath of fresh air

Why thank you.

38 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Honestly though, like I stopped responding because everybody just seemed so entrenched in their positions but it's nice to hear a fresh perspective every once in a while.

Oh absolutely. These topics can't be resolved with the information we have. It ultimately comes down to opinion. I do think there is room for debate though and not just the "you don't agree you must be stupid its so obvious" that occasionally happens. Still, its a fun topic.

28 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

First of all, because of Kaladin's statement in RoW that most Radiants don't ever reach the 4th or 5th Ideal, I think it is only fair to compare them to a more skilled Mistborn. The best of the Radiants should only be fighting the best of the Mistborn.

I 100% agree, hence my rankings of an average mistborn vs a very skilled one being different. But with Order and individual skill being so varied among even 4th Ideal Radiants being, generalizing to a certain level is unavoidable. After all the "best" Radiants as in "most skilled in combat" may not be the ones of higher ideals. Kaladin is of course exceptional, but skill in battle is not necessarily related to number of Oaths.

31 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Secondly, Kelsier and Vin both have pretty diluted bloodlines, so despite their skill, they probably aren't very powerful. Outside of Elend, who was relatively unskilled, we haven't really seen a Mistborn with the full power of a bead of Lerasium. We don't know what the 5th Ideal does yet, but tentatively I would place a theoretical skilled and powerful Mistborn (from early in the Lord Ruler's reign, perhaps) closer to that 5th Ideal area.

Potentially, but honestly I'm not sure strength matters that much. I doubt any natural allomancer, even a Lerasium mistborn is naturally strong enough to push or pull on plate without duralumin. The main advantage that I see would be stronger Pewter, but I don't think close quarters is the way to go, the key to the fight seems to be Steel/Iron usage. With that being the case, once you are sufficiently strong and skilled to control enough metal to break plate while keeping yourself our of reach (as I believe Kel and Vin could be), more strength won't really help. 

Only once you get to compounding levels of strength would it really be relevant I think.

35 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

Thirdly, and this is not so much a problem I have but just something I want to mention, I think that guns would probably make breaking Shardplate a lot easier, so if we're talking about a Lerasium bead Mistborn from Era 2 against an RoW Radiant I would put the Mistborn as pretty far ahead, as I think the gun gives a huge advantage.

Modern day firearms, I agree would be game changers. Firearms of the level we see in Mistborn Era 2, I'm not so sure. They'd help a skilled Mistborn for sure, but I don't think they'd even the playing field enough for an average Mistborn to beat a 4th Ideal Radiant. They'd make it easier for a Kel/Vin level combatant to break plate, but I'm not convince they'd do more than that. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though, guns are definitely nor my area of expertise.

23 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So basically give the mistborn huge buffs and they win against an average 4th oath radiant?

I mean this whole discussion is hypothetical. It's hardly an issue for someone to hypothesise about a highly skilled Lerasium Mistborn and how they'd fair against a Radiant with Plate. It's less hugely buffing the Mistborn, and more clarifying which type of Mistborn the person was referencing. We have very little information on what 4th Ideal Radiants can do. You yourself say that not all 4th Ideal Radiants are created equal. Kaladin is skilled yes, but I'd take Kel/Vin over Shallan in a fight any day, plate or no plate. Seems fair to wonder what a more powerful mistborn than they could do against a more skilled Radiant (like Kaladin).

35 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The problem mkstborn have with 4th oath radiants is the plate  they have no repiable way to break it without leaving themselves in a worse position. Mistborn are awesome, their powers IMHO are cooler than stormlight+sprenblade+liveplate but they dont have the offence or defence to deal with it, the best counters ive seen has been buff the mistborn which at its heart is admiting a mistborn cant take on a 4th oath radaint (assuming equal skill)

The best counter to me is just hit it a lot with bits of metal. We know repeated, forceful impacts can crack plate eventually. Since the main tactic of the mistborn is likely to be to make the Radiant burn through stormlight, the Radiant being forced to repair his armor isnt a bad thing, and once he can't anymore it be broken by the Mistborn, even if it takes a while. The Mistborn does need sufficient skill to stay our of reach while pelting the radiant, but that's why I think only the most skilled could manage it. No huge buff required, just time and the skill required to buy that much of it.

43 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

On the note of 4th oath radiants, there where hundreds if not thousands st the time of thr tecreance, far more IMHO than there are mistborn on scadrial in era 1 let alone later.

Do you have a source for this? We know there were thousands of Radiants, but as far as I know, all indication is that relatively few of them were 4th or 5th Ideal. I suppose you said hundreds, which is probable, but I doubt there were "thousands". I'd be surprised if there were 1000 between all the orders.

 

38 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Dalinar sees Elhokar fall, runs hundreds of feet, and stops the claw of a creature almost 72 foot tall. In a matter of seconds. No Mistborn beats that. And while remarkable to those watching we hear time and time again that modern shardbearers rely too much on the advantage they have over regular soldiers, Dalinar is so far ahead because he took the time to learn.

What's your source for hundreds of feet? I just reread that section of tWoK to check and didn't get the impression he was that far away at all. 

Lets say for arguments sake he is though. 200 feet in 3 seconds would be 67 feet per second. Regular humans can run 30 feet per second, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a Pewter burner can run at a speed around twice as fast a normal person. So they'd be in the same ballpark when it comes to speed, though I doubt Dalinar was that far away, like I said. 

Now Plate provides much more strength than a-pewter 100%, but I think pure speed is about equal. Or at least close enough that the advantage is small enough to not matter too much. 

44 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

In addition Kelsier was almost beaten by eight regular people, while a standard shardbearer kills hundreds without a thought.

8 people who were equipped and trained to specifically counter him, in an evironment that favored them while he had few weapons? Regular as in "no powers", yes, regular as in "average joe", no. Even Hazekillers were no match for a skilled mistborn once the mistborn spread metal around or got in an environment where they could use their advantage. We see Vin kill dozens of them in Well of ascension without much difficulty.

This is all kind of irrelevant though, since a Radiant or Mistborns ability to butcher random people has no real bearing on how they'd do in a 1v1.

[Kuldak]

 

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Atium buys them seconds. How do they break shardpalte without using all of their metals? Radiants fight in wars, battles that last hours at a time, the idea that theyll burn through stormlight faster than a mistborn through metals is absurd.

They break plate by either hitting it with coins or other metal objects from a distance, or just by touching it for a few seconds with chromium. We have plenty of evidence of attacks cracking plate, and repairing plate drains stormlight. Coins shot with the full mass of a person behind them is more force than a warhammer would produce, which is noted as being particularly good at cracking plate.

 

19 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

You mean Kaladin and Dalinar? The move that Zahel said was practically suicide, yer im totes gonna treat that as a real strategy, its a hailmary at best that has only work for two of the best non immortal fighters alive. And a hand would react poorly to having its sould cut...

We see several other examples of people slapping shardblades away without taking a hit, not just doing a last grasp. It is even stated that one of the only ways to deal with a shardblade is get in real close to make swinging it difficult. Is it without risk? Not without Atium, but it is a strategy that we have seen multiple times as being possible. I would also assume in a fight against a 4th ideal radiant, you would be sending a highly skilled Mistborn, who would also be considered one of the best fighters on their respective world.

 

31 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ummm dalinar holding of a chasmfield is significantly more than what weve seen a pewter user do, also  why grappel when you have a shapeshifting death stick, get in close, start to drain  shardblade to the arm/face game over

It is stated by every single person that saw that happen that this was an extrordinary thing, and not something any of them had seen before or even thought possible, so it is hardly a standard part of their arsenal. We also have WoB that chromium prevents shardblades forming, that almost certainly also means it also prevents them from changing shape.

 

38 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Either the speed bubble is close enough the radiant is inside  or its far enougj tbey live a little longer, they cant shoot througj the speed bubble with any reliability, this strategy works aginst them in close as they can now no longer run away very far.

You put a speed bubble edge a few feet away from a radiant and the deflection can only do so much, you can also shoot it and put another bubble back up since you don't have to coordinate with another person on the timing.

 

42 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

No its not, they dont have the stopping power to beat a radiant, if they live 5 seconds longer is rather irrelivant, and evening seeing the future they still need to get inside the range of a twohand sword/spear against a superfast opponent. Seeing the future wont stop  a professional boxxer from punching an amature in the face.

They absolutely have the stopping power to break plate, people are constantly dismissing coins and other objects as viable ways to break plate, but a coin hitting with the full mass of a combat ready fighter behind it is significantly more force than several things we have seen crack plate, remember that when being actively pushed the coin has the effective mass of the allomancer, not just the coin. Vin even uses a Koloss Sword at one point, which by all descriptions are shardblade sized, but made of steel. So they aren't even out of the picture in getting a couple plate cracking blows in that way.

50 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Dalinar stopped a chasm fiend, plate is litterally said to improve strength and speed, look at how when Renarin is learning plate he needs to be careful not to crush things. The strength of plate likely outweighs pewter, pewter arms dont need to be careful when burning puter to crush objects in their hands, or jump across chasms, hell vin managed what a 6ft jump which while impressive is nothing on plate. Then the added durabiltity, stamina and reflexes. Pewter also has rhe doenside of not healing, so a punch ti shardplate maybe cracks it, but they break their arm in the process.

Those are all great examples of Plate improving a wearer's strength. None of them are examples of plate improving someone's speed, which was my whole point. You said that someone in plate is faster than a mistborn to the point that hit and run tactics would not work. I already conceded that plate would make someone stronger than pewter, but not by such a large degree that they couldn't be grappled for a few seconds to drain their stormlight/disrupt their plate and blade.

19 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Dalinar sees Elhokar fall, runs hundreds of feet, and stops the claw of a creature almost 72 foot tall. In a matter of seconds. No Mistborn beats that. And while remarkable to those watching we hear time and time again that modern shardbearers rely too much on the advantage they have over regular soldiers, Dalinar is so far ahead because he took the time to learn.

Dalinar had been running long enough to start, and complete summoning his blade mid run, as well as yell at Renarin mid run, and he was not hundreds of feet away. Even if he was, sub 5 second 40 yard dash times aren't that uncommon among high level athletes who train for it. I give you that holding the claw is a very high feat of strength, but if you want to start throwing in one off extraordinary feats of power by main characters who are being prepared to be a shard's chosen warrior, Vin has some feats we can start throwing into the mix too.

 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

@Jace21 Your response is a breath of fresh air

I agree with pretty much all of what Jace21 said, the only thing I will hold back on is the 5th ideal radiant, because we have absolutely no idea what kinds of power that gives. The only one currently alive is both a Herald and wielding an Honorblade, and has also done nothing of note power wise that we have seen.

[Lemiltock]

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Why thank you.

Oh absolutely. These topics can't be resolved with the information we have. It ultimately comes down to opinion. I do think there is room for debate though and not just the "you don't agree you must be stupid its so obvious" that occasionally happens. Still, its a fun topic.

I 100% agree, hence my rankings of an average mistborn vs a very skilled one being different. But with Order and individual skill being so varied among even 4th Ideal Radiants being, generalizing to a certain level is unavoidable. After all the "best" Radiants as in "most skilled in combat" may not be the ones of higher ideals. Kaladin is of course exceptional, but skill in battle is not necessarily related to number of Oaths.

Potentially, but honestly I'm not sure strength matters that much. I doubt any natural allomancer, even a Lerasium mistborn is naturally strong enough to push or pull on plate without duralumin. The main advantage that I see would be stronger Pewter, but I don't think close quarters is the way to go, the key to the fight seems to be Steel/Iron usage. With that being the case, once you are sufficiently strong and skilled to control enough metal to break plate while keeping yourself our of reach (as I believe Kel and Vin could be), more strength won't really help. 

Only once you get to compounding levels of strength would it really be relevant I think.

Modern day firearms, I agree would be game changers. Firearms of the level we see in Mistborn Era 2, I'm not so sure. They'd help a skilled Mistborn for sure, but I don't think they'd even the playing field enough for an average Mistborn to beat a 4th Ideal Radiant. They'd make it easier for a Kel/Vin level combatant to break plate, but I'm not convince they'd do more than that. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though, guns are definitely nor my area of expertise.

Thr biggest problem with weapons lime firearms, is a radiant can also wield them, so its no longer a radiant vs mistborn situation. But again you cant shoot through a sprenshield, which can cover centre of mass, and good luck a) hiiting the arms and legs reliably to do any damage and b ) that damage even slowing down the radiant

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

I mean this whole discussion is hypothetical. It's hardly an issue for someone to hypothesise about a highly skilled Lerasium Mistborn and how they'd fair against a Radiant with Plate. It's less hugely buffing the Mistborn, and more clarifying which type of Mistborn the person was referencing. We have very little information on what 4th Ideal Radiants can do. You yourself say that not all 4th Ideal Radiants are created equal. Kaladin is skilled yes, but I'd take Kel/Vin over Shallan in a fight any day, plate or no plate. Seems fair to wonder what a more powerful mistborn than they could do against a more skilled Radiant (like Kaladin).

The crux of the argument is standard mistborn vs radiant give  what we know from row, the biggest difference to before is 4th oath radiants. And to compare a 4th oath radiant to a mistborn. You cant both say a mistborn can reliabily win, and also say a mistborn needs buffs (leras bead, better guns, unlimitted metals more skill etc etc) they can take part of a different discussion, and may even the ods, but in a mistborn v 4th oath radiant they are not counter points.

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

The best counter to me is just hit it a lot with bits of metal. We know repeated, forceful impacts can crack plate eventually. Since the main tactic of the mistborn is likely to be to make the Radiant burn through stormlight, the Radiant being forced to repair his armor isnt a bad thing, and once he can't anymore it be broken by the Mistborn, even if it takes a while. The Mistborn does need sufficient skill to stay our of reach while pelting the radiant, but that's why I think only the most skilled could manage it. No huge buff required, just time and the skill required to buy that much of it.

Assuming they can do the damage required before theyre either out of metals or the radiant runs them down. Sadies was beat on for minutes by parahendi with full mace blows while he was lying on the ground, minutes by things with huge mass, swung really hard. The coins might annoy the radiant, but they cant do do damage, their best bet is eye slit, and we now know that can be removed. So radiant, while using barley any stormlight walks down through the storm of coins until they catch the mistborn and kill them or thr mistborn runs through their metals faster (theyre burning at 100%) and then they die. Guns helps, but sprenkite shield to covrr centre of mass and head and that guns not doing any reliable damage.

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Do you have a source for this? We know there were thousands of Radiants, but as far as I know, all indication is that relatively few of them were 4th or 5th Ideal. I suppose you said hundreds, which is probable, but I doubt there were "thousands". I'd be surprised if there were 1000 between all the orders.

I did mean maybe a thousand here sorry. Its easily hundreds, i havnt got the book infront of me but from dalinars vision it was implied countless knights let their armour fall. In either  case there are no current mistborns, so do we just consider mistings? 

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

What's your source for hundreds of feet? I just reread that section of tWoK to check and didn't get the impression he was that far away at all. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

Lets say for arguments sake he is though. 200 feet in 3 seconds would be 67 feet per second. Regular humans can run 30 feet per second, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a Pewter burner can run at a speed around twice as fast a normal person. So they'd be in the same ballpark when it comes to speed, though I doubt Dalinar was that far away, like I said. 

Now Plate provides much more strength than a-pewter 100%, but I think pure speed is about equal. Or at least close enough that the advantage is small enough to not matter too much. 

The biggest difference though is range and durability, a radiant can go punch for punch  because both them and their armour heals a mistborn might ignore pain  but they still breao bones, kaladin broke his legs and he barly cracked already damaged deadplate and not on the section he hit. A broken legged mistborn is dead. Plus the speed could be equal, and seems about it, but eith a two hand weapon the range advantage far outweighs speed, and theyre not slower.

8 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

8 people who were equipped and trained to specifically counter him, in an evironment that favored them while he had few weapons? Regular as in "no powers", yes, regular as in "average joe", no. Even Hazekillers were no match for a skilled mistborn once the mistborn spread metal around or got in an environment where they could use their advantage. We see Vin kill dozens of them in Well of ascension without much difficulty.

This is all kind of irrelevant though, since a Radiant or Mistborns ability to butcher random people has no real bearing on how they'd do in a 1v1.

I agree here  but it does demonstrate their offence and defence "power" ie the stength of their blows (kicking war form parshendi hard enough to knock other war forms over) ves, cracking ribs? And defence, Sadies had how many warforms with maces raining blows on him for minutes and hes was still alive  vs the damage a mistborn can take. So yes  it dorsnt help show fighting ability  but it shows the stark difference in stopping power and defence.

 

[XS-Terrain]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

So basically give the mistborn huge buffs and they win against an average 4th oath radiant?

The biggest problem with guns is hitting the target. A fast moving almost impenotrable target with say a shardkite shield covering center of mass and theyvd got to hit the arms and legs. 

Raising im the oaths also has nothing to do with skill, look at shallan, or jasnah  they both can barly wield a sword and are both 4th oath (i think shallan is but she may be 3rd) oath!= skill 

The problem mkstborn have with 4th oath radiants is the plate  they have no repiable way to break it without leaving themselves in a worse position. Mistborn are awesome, their powers IMHO are cooler than stormlight+sprenblade+liveplate but they dont have the offence or defence to deal with it, the best counters ive seen has been buff the mistborn which at its heart is admiting a mistborn cant take on a 4th oath radaint (assuming equal skill)

On the note of 4th oath radiants, there where hundreds if not thousands st the time of thr tecreance, far more IMHO than there are mistborn on scadrial in era 1 let alone later.

I've refuted these same arguments from you 3 or 4 times now but maybe I just haven't been explaining myself well. I was pretty busy this week so I didn't respond further but I'm off now so here goes.

First very important distinction - I'm not sure where you're getting this skill thing from. You've mentioned it in a couple of previous posts, but I never once said that the 4th Ideal Radiants are skilled. Not once. Just to make sure, I just looked back through all of my old posts. At worst, I may have accidentally implied it in this statement.

On 12/9/2020 at 6:26 AM, XS-Terrain said:

Regarding the skill of the fighter, a 4th Ideal Radiant is near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant - We've only seen 2 so far, Kaladin and Jasnah, and it's stated multiple times throughout RoW that most Radiants never reach those higher Ideals. It makes sense, then, that we should only have them facing the most skilled of Mistborn - someone with the full power of a Lerasium bead like Elend, with the Allomantic skill of Vin or Kelsier, and the gun skill of Wax.

If you took this to mean that I thought the 4th Ideal meant that you were skilled, that was a miscommunication on my part, and I apologize. What I was trying to communicate was that they are "near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant," and by this I mean that they are the most powerful and most dangerous fighters out of everybody in the Knights Radiant, and that they are a small minority. Therefore, I believe that they should only be fighting the small minority at the top of the Mistborn. This, to me, makes sense. It's only a fair fight if the best of the Radiants fight the best of the Mistborn.

Let's select a skilled 4th Ideal Radiant, one comparable to Kaladin in skill. When matching them against a Mistborn, I think they should fight a Lerasium bead Mistborn who has the skill of Vin, and, if we allow guns, the aim of Wax. That's not a buff to the Mistborn, that's a fair fight. If we were talking a 3rd Ideal Radiant, they would be fighting a less powerful or less skilled Mistborn, and so on and so forth.

Now onto the subject of guns. As I said above, if we're gonna be fighting the best of the Radiants (and this means in skill, power, or both), the person fighting them should be good with guns. A Shardplate is a pretty big target, and I don't think we've ever gotten a full description of how big Syl is as a shield, so your claim that it would cover up the entire torso is questionable, and even if it were the case, legs are a pretty big and vulnerable target. If you've ever watched competition shooting, targets much smaller than Shardplate-covered legs (although usually moving slower than some Radiants, admittedly), are shot with ease. Obviously this is much more complicated while moving around in a fight, but with all of the size Shardplate seems to provide I doubt that a sharpshooter would have a problem hitting the target.

On the subject of moving around, if the fight occurs during the night or otherwise in the dark, the Mistborn also has a far better chance of tracking the Radiant's movement than the Radiant does for the Mistborn. Not only is the Radiant glowing, but the Mistborn can burn Tin, and Shardplate is made of a God Metal alloy from Cultivation and Honor, meaning that it should probably show blue lines connecting to the Mistborn. On the other hand, the Radiant has virtually no ability to track the Mistborn in a dark environment. This makes it exceedingly difficult to chase the Mistborn, much less have a shield always pointed in their direction to block bullets.

On the subject of bullets, there are a couple of important points here too. First of all, there was the WoB earlier that stated that the right bullet from Vindication could break Shardplate in a single specialized shot, or 2-3 regular shots. This means that something like a rifle, or a shotgun, should be able to break it in one shot. Also, given that aluminum projectiles suppress Feruchemical gold healing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/219-words-of-radiance-philadelphia-signing/#e6365) it could have a similar effect on Stormlight healing. Now, I know you've objected to my statements about guns before, so I'll adress those below.

On 12/9/2020 at 4:54 PM, Lemiltock said:

Im not taking any liberty, brandon said possible, with the right gun/bullet/shot/timing. If he shot shardplate at point blank range eith his biggest bullet and pushed on the shot sure. Against an inhumanly fast person his shots will at best glance significsnfky reducing the damage to the section. If its can wax kill a radiant while they stand completley still, sure. But thats taking alot of liberty.

...

Ive covered this several times now, if the radiant stands till and a gun gets unloaded straight on will it break the plate sure. But the radiant is moving super fast with a shield covering center of mass. So the mistborns not breaking amything. And even straight on shots "a couple of shots" is only enough with litterally the most powerful bullet in existance on scadrial, but again its got to hit thr extremities of a very fast target.

See, now this is what I don't get. We have, in fact, covered this a couple of times now, and despite you saying that you're not taking any liberties, you very clearly are. Here's the WoB again for reference.

Quote

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

Two or three. Vindication is a revolver. 2-3 bullets on a revolver breaks Shardplate. It's not the most powerful bullet on Scadrial, it's a revolver bullet. The phrase "the right bullet" clearly impies that the previous bullets were not the "right" ones, and are just regular bullets. Even the "right' bullet is just a higher caliber bullet with probably more powder, but still only fired out of a revolver. If it's fired out of a revolver, it's probably less powerful than a rifle cartridge.

On 12/9/2020 at 4:54 PM, Lemiltock said:

And i havnt brandon said on a battlefield, ie in a fight kaladin wins, and that was preplate. It significsntly implies assasination, ie the opponents dont know the others coming. Mistborn are assasins thats what their power leads to, radiants are warriors, in a straight up.fight the warrior wins.

Once again, you're taking huge liberties with the WoB. You're assuming it means something that it doesn't necessarily mean. That's what "taking liberties" means. I don't read it as implying assassination. I don't think anybody else in this thread read it as implying assassination, although feel free to correct me if any of you did. After all, it very clearly reads as a "fight," as in a street fight or a dirty fight, not as a slitting of the throat at midnight.

Back to your most recent reply, I believe that I've already addressed why I believe a Mistborn could pretty easily break plate. Even without guns, it just comes down to a battle of attrition with the Mistborn keeping distance and shooting coins, and from what we've seen, metals last much longer than Stormlight. Other users here have already defended that point pretty well, so I'll just leave that one up to you whether or not you decide to change your mind.

As for there being "hundreds if not thousands" of 4th Ideal Radiants at the time of the Recreance, that's very clearly not the case. At Feverstone Keep in Dalinar's vision I believe there were only 300, consisting of 2 Orders. Some of the Orders are stated to have several hundred members, I believe. In total, I doubt that the Knights Radiant numbered more than 3000. Of those, given that Kaladin states that most Radiants never reached the higher ideals, I doubt that the number of 4th Ideals would exceed 1000.

[NameIess]

Well. After reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the community of the shard will never be able to decide which wins until we actually see a confrontation on-screen. Multiple times. And after Brandon confirms the victor and all the caveats. multiple times.