Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Publius]

Raysium didn't get into the hands of the Fused and the Ghostbloods, so that they could hand it off to Shallan, on its own. I think there's a pretty clear implication that Odium created some and made it available.

Scadrians have access to Ettmetal, either passively or by Harmony deciding to up the quantity, and that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling on creating some Mistborn, Feruchemists, and Fullborns.

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Ah, true I forgot about Wax. Nevertheless stormlight healing and f-gold seem to be the same, outside of healing death where stormlight might not be enough and F-Gold requires large stores.

If seeker is in range of suppression fabrial, they cannot detect anything as their allomancy is off. And suppression fabrials cannot emit the anti-tone to given investiture, Urithiru was able to suppress Fused surges, and Fused were able to create suppression fabrials and both of these pre-date the discovery of anti-tones and anti-light. They need to be attuned somehow and that most likely requires knowledge of the pure tones of shard, but that does not mean it emits anti-tones.

And I do not think A-copper could block suppression fabrials, A-coopper only ever blocks senses and some passive investiture effects, like attuning rhythms. Fabrial is active device, and A-cooper does not block active uses of investiture, at best it helps the smoker resist some effects (only confirmed is emotional allomancy, so cognitive effect not spiritual one).

Yeah, I also don't think A-Copper would block suppresion fabrials, this was about Anti-Tones, they are less effective but easier to use.

However, Scadrial Has his own Anti-magic tech. They can have Leeching Ettmetal Fabrials. We've seen primer Cubes charged with A-Chromium and this is just primer, needet to start device. And we've seen Allomantic magitech working hours, if not days. 

Another idea is Allomantic/Feruchemical ammunition. Imagine Leecher Artillery Shells, to cancel magic. Or A-Cadmium Shells ideał against flying targets. A-Iron/A-Steel Shells, to mess with everything metal. And so on. 

Of course, for Surges this would work top, but i think they are less potent in this role, except maybe Gravitation (Division is basicly standard use of Artillery).

BTW, if we would be able to make Bendalloy bubble inside Cadmium Bubble and first would be just slightly smaller (not as normal, a little, like 1cm in diameter) then the barier would work as energy Shield, deflexting everything material.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Publius said:

Raysium didn't get into the hands of the Fused and the Ghostbloods, so that they could hand it off to Shallan, on its own. I think there's a pretty clear implication that Odium created some and made it available.

Scadrians have access to Ettmetal, either passively or by Harmony deciding to up the quantity, and that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling on creating some Mistborn, Feruchemists, and Fullborns.

True on Raysium, however if we restrict Shards from interfering directly lack of Raysium (which might no longer be created anyway) would not be that big a problem. And in principle Odium godmetal should be obtainable somehow from pure Odium spren, if such exist, without direct intervention of Odium.

While Scadrians have access to ettmetal, splitting into lerasium and atium is not trivial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12145) with WoB suggesting that physical means are not enough and Scadrial has limited means of manipulating spiritual and cognitive aspects. In addition Scadrians do not possess such knowledge, so Harmony would have to share that, and if Harmony is sharing knowledge then why not gamma lasers Lightweavers and nuclear Elsecallers?

1. Splitting of ettmetal would allow only creation of Mistborn through lerasium.
2. We have no idea how to create Feruchemists (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4/#e4871) and neither does anyone else.
3. On Fullborn, it seems to require some direct manipulation of spiritWeb (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14103) and the only one we have confirmed is Rashek who did it that way.

So even if they could somehow learn to split ettmetal into lerasium and atium, it would only help them create mistborn, or mistborn+ferrings.

@Bzhydack

Quote

eah, I also don't think A-Copper would block suppresion fabrials, this was about Anti-Tones, they are less effective but easier to use.

However, Scadrial Has his own Anti-magic tech. They can have Leeching Ettmetal Fabrials. We've seen primer Cubes charged with A-Chromium and this is just primer, needet to start device. And we've seen Allomantic magitech working hours, if not days. 

Another idea is Allomantic/Feruchemical ammunition. Imagine Leecher Artillery Shells, to cancel magic. Or A-Cadmium Shells ideał against flying targets. A-Iron/A-Steel Shells, to mess with everything metal. And so on. 

Of course, for Surges this would work top, but i think they are less potent in this role, except maybe Gravitation (Division is basicly standard use of Artillery).

BTW, if we would be able to make Bendalloy bubble inside Cadmium Bubble and first would be just slightly smaller (not as normal, a little, like 1cm in diameter) then the barier would work as energy Shield, deflexting everything material.

Good point on scadrial leechers, but the issue with those is that they will effect Scadrians troops as well, whereas Rosharans suppressors can be targeted at opponent only. Rosharan suppressors also seem to be able to work days at a time, it is just a matter of stormlight. Plus if Rosharan suppressors are already turned on, the Scadrian ettmetal grenades will most likely not activate nor will their leechers, so Rosharan troops would be protected from such effects if they fielded enough suppressors.

Ettmetal grenades will definately be useful, but since the area of effect seems relatively small hitting flying targets might not be so easy. Plus you could equip Radiants with small suppressor fabrials to potentially stop ettmetal fabrials from functioning in their vicinity.

By gravitation artillery I meant lashing large boulders to bombard opposing forces, that is level of destruction beyond anything Scadrial can field outside Fullborn, if not so well targeted. Elsecallers sitting in cognitive could also safely bombard Scadrian forces by either soulcasting air into stone, or more effectively doing what Jasnah did and soulcast air into oil and then soulcast a small spark.

The issue with combined B and C bubbles is that object is either in a bubble entirely or out, so if the bubble was too thin and the object large it might never register the thin bubble at all. Plus bubbles do not reflect the objects away, just nearly randomly changes trajectory, which is bad news for people inside, because now the incoming ammunition is not predictable.

Edited April 5, 2021 by therunner
misclicked and posted before being finished

[+Bzhydack]

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point on scadrial leechers, but the issue with those is that they will effect Scadrians troops as well, whereas Rosharans suppressors can be targeted at opponent only. Rosharan suppressors also seem to be able to work days at a time, it is just a matter of stormlight. Plus if Rosharan suppressors are already turned on, the Scadrian ettmetal grenades will most likely not activate nor will their leechers, so Rosharan troops would be protected from such effects if they fielded enough suppressors.

We dont know that. This whole Intent sheninagans, it could be possible to attune Leeching fabrials to specific Investiture. And Stormlight. This isnt very good fuel - ettmetal is much easier to transport (not need perfect gems, need only waterproof boxes). Anywhere outside Roshar Stormlight is hard to transport and storage. Ettmetal is.

Last thing really works in both ways, because if Scadrians allerady have theirs fabrials turned on, Rosharans would not have Stormlight to fuel their devices in this area. Difference is, Scadrians dont need this to be deadly. Rosharans do.

Im wondering if Supressor Fabrial would be deactivated if closed in aluminum box. Should be.

46 minutes ago, therunner said:

Ettmetal grenades will definately be useful, but since the area of effect seems relatively small hitting flying targets might not be so easy. Plus you could equip Radiants with small suppressor fabrials to potentially stop ettmetal fabrials from functioning in their vicinity.

A-Cadmium ammo. Even if area is not so large, is still few meters in diameter. Supressor fabrial may prevent this from setting off, but i dont think would have effect on allready standing bubble. Not if its area would be smaller than bubble.

56 minutes ago, therunner said:

By gravitation artillery I meant lashing large boulders to bombard opposing forces, that is level of destruction beyond anything Scadrial can field outside Fullborn, if not so well targeted. Elsecallers sitting in cognitive could also safely bombard Scadrian forces by either soulcasting air into stone, or more effectively doing what Jasnah did and soulcast air into oil and then soulcast a small spark.

Scadrians allready have nuke-level bombs. And artillery. And rotary guns. Those are very potent destruction devices And there is no stromlight in Cognitive Realm, and soulcasting is exhausting and Stormlight-heavy. This can be like one, maybe two times event before they would burn all fuel.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

he issue with combined B and C bubbles is that object is either in a bubble entirely or out, so if the bubble was too thin and the object large it might never register the thin bubble at all. Plus bubbles do not reflect the objects away, just nearly randomly changes trajectory, which is bad news for people inside, because now the incoming ammunition is not predictable.

But seems to be good idea for personal use.

Also, there is way to affect bubble size, but all we have is RAFO.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This was before brain death, so Technically body was still alive. Few seconda and this would not help. And we saw this also with F-gold (Wax at the end of BoM)

Note: while Nale says that Szeth's brain hadn't died yet, this feels frankly preposterous, because he says this line even in the original ending where Kaladin straight-up kills Szeth with a Shardblade, burning out his eyes. He also says Szeth's soul was cut through and he was "dead for certain", even in the new version where he dies from crashing down in the storm. So... the things he says in that specific section are questionable, both in the old version and new, lol.

We've been told via WoB that Szeth and Gawx were both physically dead. Ordinarily, I'd say Nale's line in the book takes precedence, but due to the issues I outlined, I feel in this situation, the book... doesn't make a whole lot of sense... and so am going with the WoB instead.

Quote

Yes, Szeth totally died from that fall--just as the young man that Lift revived had died from what he suffered. We know that Stormlight can fix the body and bring back the dead, so long as very little time has passed.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3381

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

If they have 4 spikes and more they are opened to Shardic influence, and possibly to influence of anyone who can brute force the Connection (hint Bondsmith hint, or hint Ba-Ado-Mishram hint). This effectively limits them to twin-steel (it is very powerful) and one other attribute, unless you want to risk losing the army.

I'd probably recommend C-steel and A-chromium, in this case. Can tap speed, "fly" with Steelpushes, and Leech. Not quite as scary as a Fullborn, and you're going to lose some, but very effective nonetheless.

4 hours ago, therunner said:

There is some limit to number of spikes before you start deforming (physically and mentally) your subjects, existence of Steel Inquisitors suggests that this limit is lower than 9 spikes and afterwards they become inhuman in body and thought and require lynchpin spike to survive. This would essentially provide them with self-destruct button if you could destroy the lynch pin spike, and they are opened to Shardic influence/control or Bondsmith control.

Hemalurgy chart says "a steel linchpin is recommended to avoid the potential deadly side effects of the bestowal of four or more spikes".

2 hours ago, Publius said:

Harmony would know how. It's simply a matter of his willingness to do it himself or to divulge how to use Lerasium in order to do so, which should be assumed for the sake of this Scadrial v Roshar thought experiment.

I think assuming active support of the Shards makes this far too unpredictable. We're not having Odium make more Fused, let's not have Harmony make more Metalborn. Yes, it's theoretically possible to separate ettmetal into lerasium and atium, and to use the Scadrian godmetals to make Feruchemists, but as of yet neither us nor the people in-world seem likely to have any clue how to do either of those things.

Edited April 5, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

We dont know that. This whole Intent sheninagans, it could be possible to attune Leeching fabrials to specific Investiture. And Stormlight. This isnt very good fuel - ettmetal is much easier to transport (not need perfect gems, need only waterproof boxes). Anywhere outside Roshar Stormlight is hard to transport and storage. Ettmetal is.

Maybe, but so far nothing suggests this. Leeching removes all investiture in others and so do leeching fabrials. While stormlight is at this point more difficult to transport it is also hundreds of times more common than ettmetal, which makes suppressor fabrials nearly disposable. And perfect gems are not needed, spheres can hold light perfectly well it just eventually drains but it still takes time, its not like spheres are empty 2 days after a highstorm.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Last thing really works in both ways, because if Scadrians allerady have theirs fabrials turned on, Rosharans would not have Stormlight to fuel their devices in this area. Difference is, Scadrians dont need this to be deadly. Rosharans do.

True, but if they have their leechers turned on, they are affected and cannot use metallic arts based on our current knowledge. So they could not effectively shield themselves from attacks, nor from bombardment.

Rosharans would need to use them mainly as defensive tools, to prevent Scadrians from taking ground and to nullify their troops investiture. Once active Scadrians need to destroy the fabrial somehow, until such time they cannot take the area under effect.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Im wondering if Supressor Fabrial would be deactivated if closed in aluminum box. Should be.

I do not think so, if it had attached gem with stormlight it should fork perfectly fine inside aluminum box. Its effect would be limited to inside the box but it would work. We have seen fabrials being worked inside aluminum lined room in Kholinar and it did not interfere with their function at all.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

A-Cadmium ammo. Even if area is not so large, is still few meters in diameter. Supressor fabrial may prevent this from setting off, but i dont think would have effect on allready standing bubble. Not if its area would be smaller than bubble.

How will you time it to detonate in proximity of Radiant? or are you counting on luck?

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Scadrians allready have nuke-level bombs. And artillery. And rotary guns. Those are very potent destruction devices And there is no stromlight in Cognitive Realm, and soulcasting is exhausting and Stormlight-heavy. This can be like one, maybe two times event before they would burn all fuel.

Ettmetal bombs are not nuke level, they are still chemical bombs albeit very powerful. Set only speculated they could be used to destroy cities, they did not actually test it as far as I know. We have seen no artillery on Scadrial, but they should have it, it will still be magnitudes weaker than gravitation artillery, they could easily fire 1 ton stones at speeds around ~200 m/s (it would take only 15 lashings to do this). Rotary guns might be problem, but they seem to be somewhat rare, and unless you are feeding them aluminum bullets, they are ineffective thanks to reverse lashings. And guns can be soulcasted away, you could soulcast just air in the barrel into stone for example.

EDIT: Apparently there were artillery cannons used in Era 1, so some artillery is present but how advanced is a question.

Also stormlight is in cognitive, it appears during highstorm and spren use it as currency. Additionally you can bring it with you in gems.

Soulcasting is not nearly as difficult as you imply, it depends on what you are trying to soulcast and into what. Anything that is one of ten essences (which includes oil, fire and stone) is easy to do, Shallan does it by accident in WoK, and Jasnah demonstrates the first two directly in battle in RoW, where she is not supported by Bondsmith. In battle of Theylen field, where she was admittedly incredibly invested she did feat like this repeatedly and even greater feats, and even in WoK back when she was only on 3rd oath most likely she could easily soulcast 3 people into the essences and some from distance. In RoW lightweavers accompanying Shallan have been practicing their Soulcasting while in cognitive, so it cannot be that difficult.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

But seems to be good idea for personal use.

Also, there is way to affect bubble size, but all we have is RAFO.

Still does not change the fact that trajectory of incoming projectiles is effectively randomized, so it would be very risky protection, and it does not change the fact that large enough projectiles would ignore the boundary, unless the boundary was thick enough, at which point it is no longer quite so personal shield.

Also aluminum would be unaffected by the bubble or it would pop it.

Edited April 5, 2021 by therunner
correction

[+Bzhydack]

52 minutes ago, therunner said:

Maybe, but so far nothing suggests this. Leeching removes all investiture in others and so do leeching fabrials. While stormlight is at this point more difficult to transport it is also hundreds of times more common than ettmetal, which makes suppressor fabrials nearly disposable. And perfect gems are not needed, spheres can hold light perfectly well it just eventually drains but it still takes time, its not like spheres are empty 2 days after a highstorm.

There is whole Civilization equiped with Ettmetal Magitech, so it is relativly common for me.

And yes, normal spheres can hold Stormlight few days, but for even 20 days (Weeping) special large gemstones are needet. 20 days is not very long for military campain, and anywhere far from Roshar would be very difficult to have large amount of Stormlight without perfect gems or something similar in function.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I do not think so, if it had attached gem with stormlight it should fork perfectly fine inside aluminum box. Its effect would be limited to inside the box but it would work. We have seen fabrials being worked inside aluminum lined room in Kholinar and it did not interfere with their function at all.

Yeah, im talking about it. Effect is limited inside the box, so Fabrial is not affecting envionment, while still theoreticaly active.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Ettmetal bombs are not nuke level, they are still chemical bombs albeit very powerful. Set only speculated they could be used to destroy cities, they did not actually test it as far as I know. We have seen no artillery on Scadrial, but they should have it, it will still be magnitudes weaker than gravitation artillery, they could easily fire 1 ton stones at speeds around ~200 m/s (it would take only 15 lashings to do this). Rotary guns might be problem, but they seem to be somewhat rare, and unless you are feeding them aluminum bullets, they are ineffective thanks to reverse lashings. And guns can be soulcasted away, you could soulcast just air in the barrel into stone for example.

Set is speculating, but Southerners are sure about it. And I belive them, this is theirs tech after all.

It takes more Stormlight for larger object to Lash. Also more Lashings - more Stormlight. This would eat Stormlight faster than Laceryn. Also so large projeciles should have limited range, they also leak Stormlight faster so they are Lashed shorter.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

How will you time it to detonate in proximity of Radiant? or are you counting on luck?

Not luck. Fortune

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Also stormlight is in cognitive, it appears during highstorm and spren use it as currency. Additionally you can bring it with you in gems.

So go and read what Spren are talking in Oathbringer. Stormlight is in Cognitive only if is brought from Physical. It NOT apear during Highstorms. This is why is so valuable.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Soulcasting is not nearly as difficult as you imply, it depends on what you are trying to soulcast and into what. Anything that is one of ten essences (which includes oil, fire and stone) is easy to do, Shallan does it by accident in WoK, and Jasnah demonstrates the first two directly in battle in RoW, where she is not supported by Bondsmith. In battle of Theylen field, where she was admittedly incredibly invested she did feat like this repeatedly and even greater feats, and even in WoK back when she was only on 3rd oath most likely she could easily soulcast 3 people into the essences and some from distance. In RoW lightweavers accompanying Shallan have been practicing their Soulcasting while in cognitive, so it cannot be that difficult.

How large is Soulcaster's range? We didnt see more than maybe 20 meters...

And gun can be full aluminum.

And we didnt see Soulcasting from Cognitive (mean, cross Realms). As far we've seen Soulcasting full in Physical or full in Cognitive. It is possible, of course, but we dont have example, so this is probably more dificoult than "normal"Soulcasting.

[therunner]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

There is whole Civilization equiped with Ettmetal Magitech, so it is relativly common for me.

And yes, normal spheres can hold Stormlight few days, but for even 20 days (Weeping) special large gemstones are needet. 20 days is not very long for military campain, and anywhere far from Roshar would be very difficult to have large amount of Stormlight without perfect gems or something similar in function.

And there is civilization at least 15x the size of SoScad that uses stormlight habitually and is now starting to use it industrially as well.

Ettmetal is still less common than stormlight and much more difficult to replenish, there are not ettmetal storms every few days either. Outside of Roshar, we have Bondsmith who can open perpendicularity on-demand to replenish spheres as needed. Stormlight is easier to obtain and more abundant then ettmetal by any measure.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Yeah, im talking about it. Effect is limited inside the box, so Fabrial is not affecting envionment, while still theoreticaly active.

You said 'deactivated' when in aluminum box in your previous comment and the fabrial would not be. And how would Scadrians get it in the aluminum box if they cannot approach it without losing their powers? Presumably Rosharans would not leave it unattended, or without traps.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Set is speculating, but Southerners are sure about it. And I belive them, this is theirs tech after all.

As far as I can see only Suit is talking about the bomb being able to destroy city and he is trying to bluff Wax at that point. The SoScadrians intended it to destroy the temple and not much more. If you could point me to were SoScadrians say the bomb could destroy the city I would appreciate it.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

It takes more Stormlight for larger object to Lash. Also more Lashings - more Stormlight. This would eat Stormlight faster than Laceryn. Also so large projeciles should have limited range, they also leak Stormlight faster so they are Lashed shorter.

Than encase the projectile in aluminum outside of small hole, this will limit passive loss of stormlight. It would take a lot of it sure, but not outside of bounds of what we have seen, I am sure it will not consume anywhere near the amount of stormlight it took to cross half the continent in half a day.

Plus you can easily lash them under angle, and then let natural gravity do the rest. Not nearly as destructive, but much cheaper in stormlight.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Not luck. Fortune

Fortune is not the same things as luck, it seems to be related to destiny and futuresight not necessarily 'luck' as we colloquially understand it. Based on other descriptions it seems that Brandon is using Fortune more in the way of it meaning destiny or fate. And based on Hoid, it is not that reliable anyway.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

So go and read what Spren are talking in Oathbringer. Stormlight is in Cognitive only if is brought from Physical. It NOT apear during Highstorms. This is why is so valuable.

Ah good point, I mistook spren feeding off highstorm while in cognitive for presence of stormlight in cognitive during highstorm. Still, Elsecallers can transition between the realms at will, and can bring the necessary spheres with them.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

How large is Soulcaster's range? We didnt see more than maybe 20 meters...

And gun can be full aluminum.

And we didnt see Soulcasting from Cognitive (mean, cross Realms). As far we've seen Soulcasting full in Physical or full in Cognitive. It is possible, of course, but we dont have example, so this is probably more dificoult than "normal"Soulcasting.

On range we do not have any hard numbers, but I would say 20-40 meters is reasonable based on my memory of events of Oathbringer.

It does not matter if the gun is full aluminum, its barrel still contains air and that can be soulcast, the bullets contain gunpowder which could be soulcast etc.

Soulcasters need to project their consciousness into cognitive to soulcast in the physical realm, if anything it should be easier to do it directly from the cognitive realm.

EDIT: and per @Frustration in below post (thank you, I could not remember where I saw it) Jasnah casts from cognitive in deleted scene, so semi-canon? Mechanically there is nothing to prevent it, it seems.

Edited April 5, 2021 by therunner
added info from Frustration

[Frustration]

 

6 hours ago, Publius said:

Raysium didn't get into the hands of the Fused and the Ghostbloods, so that they could hand it off to Shallan, on its own. I think there's a pretty clear implication that Odium created some and made it available.

Scadrians have access to Ettmetal, either passively or by Harmony deciding to up the quantity, and that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling on creating some Mistborn, Feruchemists, and Fullborns.

We haven't been discussing Raysium

4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

We dont know that. This whole Intent sheninagans, it could be possible to attune Leeching fabrials to specific Investiture. And Stormlight. This isnt very good fuel - ettmetal is much easier to transport (not need perfect gems, need only waterproof boxes). Anywhere outside Roshar Stormlight is hard to transport and storage. Ettmetal is.Scadrians allready have nuke-level bombs. And artillery. And rotary guns. Those are very potent destruction devices And there is no stromlight in Cognitive Realm, and soulcasting is exhausting and Stormlight-heavy. This can be like one, maybe two times event before they would burn all fuel.

Chromium has not shown the potential to be used as suppresion.

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

There is whole Civilization equiped with Ettmetal Magitech, so it is relativly common for me.

And yes, normal spheres can hold Stormlight few days, but for even 20 days (Weeping) special large gemstones are needet. 20 days is not very long for military campain, and anywhere far from Roshar would be very difficult to have large amount of Stormlight without perfect gems or something similar in function.

How large is Soulcaster's range? We didnt see more than maybe 20 meters...

And gun can be full aluminum.

And we didnt see Soulcasting from Cognitive (mean, cross Realms). As far we've seen Soulcasting full in Physical or full in Cognitive. It is possible, of course, but we dont have example, so this is probably more dificoult than "normal"Soulcasting.

Ettmetal bombs are still only scaled up Cessium reactions, not nuclear fission.

You forget that Bondsmiths can generate infinate free stormlight.

Jasnah soulcasts form the cognitive in a deleted scene so it is sort of cannon

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Jasnah soulcasts form the cognitive in a deleted scene so it is sort of cannon

Hate this.  "It happened in deleted scene, it is canon!"

NO! If something was deleted, there was a reason to delete this.

57 minutes ago, therunner said:

As far as I can see only Suit is talking about the bomb being able to destroy city and he is trying to bluff Wax at that point. The SoScadrians intended it to destroy the temple and not much more. If you could point me to were SoScadrians say the bomb could destroy the city I would appreciate it.

Right, we dont have this on-screen. But from who Suit get this info, you think?

Anyway, destruction of temple is still much more than destruction of anything we see Radiants do.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

You said 'deactivated' when in aluminum box in your previous comment and the fabrial would not be. And how would Scadrians get it in the aluminum box if they cannot approach it without losing their powers? Presumably Rosharans would not leave it unattended, or without traps.

This was more theoretical, and even advantage for Rosharans, because they can bring conseal and active Fabrial.

For Scadrians, I thout more about aluminum powder, gelle or foam, designed to isolate Invested devices. Also more theoretical now.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Soulcasters need to project their consciousness into cognitive to soulcast in the physical realm, if anything it should be easier to do it directly from the cognitive realm.

Breaching realmatic border isnt as easy as you imply. Also, Is easier to go from Material to Cognitive (like even Lightweavers, order without Transportation, can do this) than from Cognitive to Material (even Elsecallers cannot do this anywhere)

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Ettmetal is still less common than stormlight and much more difficult to replenish, there are not ettmetal storms every few days either. Outside of Roshar, we have Bondsmith who can open perpendicularity on-demand to replenish spheres as needed. Stormlight is easier to obtain and more abundant then ettmetal by any measure.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

You forget that Bondsmiths can generate infinate free stormlight.

Only Bondsmith whitch we can consider is someone with Ishar's Honorblade, others cannot go very far from Roshar because their Spren are too essential to Roshar's ecosystem.

But unlike Stormlight, Ettmetal doesnt steam away from storages. Most Stormlight is wasted during Highstorm. Stormlight easier to obtain? Yes. More abundant? No data about it. We still have to see SoScad civilisation to tell that. And even now we can tell they need hudreds, if not thousands tons of Ettmetal. just to fuel theirs Airships, ant this is probably not very basic use of it, of course they have more.

Also, mists. Scadrial has mists.

[Frustration]

26 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Hate this.  "It happened in deleted scene, it is canon!"

NO! If something was deleted, there was a reason to delete this.

I said sort of cannon, not it is cannon, it has happened so we have more reason to believe it is possible than that it isn't

30 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Anyway, destruction of temple is still much more than destruction of anything we see Radiants do.

Dustbringers were able to leave massive sections of solid rock smoking

31 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Breaching realmatic border isnt as easy as you imply. Also, Is easier to go from Material to Cognitive (like even Lightweavers, order without Transportation, can do this) than from Cognitive to Material (even Elsecallers cannot do this anywhere)

There is an easier way back

Spoiler

Questioner

Can you tell me anything about the Elsecallers we don't know yet?

Brandon Sanderson

They should be able to get back out of Shadesmar without having to find a perpendicularity, but Jasnah doesn't know how to do it yet. She should be able to do that, she just hasn't figured it out.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

37 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Only Bondsmith whitch we can consider is someone with Ishar's Honorblade, others cannot go very far from Roshar because their Spren are too essential to Roshar's ecosystem.

Actually the Stormfather is more Omnipresent than other spren, his Radiant should be able to leave Roshar as easily as other Radiants with him staying behind.

Spoiler

Questioner

Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson

Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s Cognitive Shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

39 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, mists. Scadrial has mists.

They aren't very useful right now though.

[therunner]

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Hate this.  "It happened in deleted scene, it is canon!"

NO! If something was deleted, there was a reason to delete this.

https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

He says not to take it as cannon just yet, as he is polishing it up, but he is referencing this scene in some WoBs (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87-white-sand-vol1-release-party/#e5758). That to me puts it on par with a lot of WoBs as we have seen him change his mind on those and outright contradict himself sometime. He clearly still considers the rough outline of events to hold, and the sailors had to escape somehow.

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Right, we dont have this on-screen. But from who Suit get this info, you think?

Anyway, destruction of temple is still much more than destruction of anything we see Radiants do.

What makes you think Suit is not lying? He has never been the most honest sort, and he has every reason to try and convince Wax that he has to give up the Bands. Ettmetal can cause large explosion, but more on a few building demolishing levels, not city demolishing levels.

On Roshar we have Shattered planes (most likely) and Ashyn that was specifically destroyed by Surges. Scadrial does not seem to come that close.

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

This was more theoretical, and even advantage for Rosharans, because they can bring conseal and active Fabrial.

For Scadrians, I thout more about aluminum powder, gelle or foam, designed to isolate Invested devices. Also more theoretical now.

Ah that makes sense, but they can also transport the fabrial and just turn it on where they want? If it is not active it should not give of any pulses, so it should not seem dangerous.

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Breaching realmatic border isnt as easy as you imply. Also, Is easier to go from Material to Cognitive (like even Lightweavers, order without Transportation, can do this) than from Cognitive to Material (even Elsecallers cannot do this anywhere)

Shallan accidentally partially falls into Shadesmar, and so does Jasnah when she is young. They did not transition fully, but were still partly there. And Elsecallers (and anyone with Surge of Transportation) can specifically transition between realms. They can go to cognitive from wherever, and can go back to physical at will as well (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398/#e13196) although that takes more training. So anyone with Transportation can go back and forth between realms as they please, if they have enough stormlight and know what they are doing.

51 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Only Bondsmith whitch we can consider is someone with Ishar's Honorblade, others cannot go very far from Roshar because their Spren are too essential to Roshar's ecosystem.

But unlike Stormlight, Ettmetal doesnt steam away from storages. Most Stormlight is wasted during Highstorm. Stormlight easier to obtain? Yes. More abundant? No data about it. We still have to see SoScad civilisation to tell that. And even now we can tell they need hudreds, if not thousands tons of Ettmetal. just to fuel theirs Airships, ant this is probably not very basic use of it, of course they have more.

Also, mists. Scadrial has mists.

We know that eventually Rosharans leave the planet and still have surges, plus in principle Odium could make Dalinar Fused and pack up his bags and go, then you have 2 off-planet Bondsmiths, Dalinar and wielder of Honorblade, and Dalinar could reincarnate to boot. And if Scadrial attacked Roshar, those Bondsmith will be very relevant.

On Roshar we have continent spanning  (~3000 km wide at least) storm that supplies stormlight into anything that can hold it, that sounds like quite abundant source to me, you are only limited by the containers you can put outside, nothing else. This is far beyond anything seen on Scadrial. In addition we have never seen more than a few kilograms of Ettmetal, not tons, as far as I am aware.

Mists are not usable much, the only confirmed cases being Vin and Wax. And they cannot be used to fuel fabrials on Scadrial, unlike Stormlight.

EDIT: Changed some wording to bring the tone down, it was not my intention to be hostile. Thank you @Frustration for alerting me as to how I might come off.

Edited April 5, 2021 by therunner
made some edits to make the tone better

[Frustration]

@therunner maybe tone it done a bit you're coming off a little hositle.

Edit: @Bzhydack you to.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Frustration

[+Bzhydack]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually the Stormfather is more Omnipresent than other spren, his Radiant should be able to leave Roshar as easily as other Radiants with him staying behind.

Leave Roshar-planet? Yeah, I think so. Leave Rosharan System? Maybe. But still, we are talking about interplanetary distances. Even shards cannot use theits power anywhere.

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

Did you by any chance hear about Shattered Plains? Or Ashyn, you know, the place that surgebinding destroyed so thoroughly that people had to run away to another planet? Scadrial has nothing on destructive potential of Surges.

Yes I did. Ashyn is out of speculation because Magic there and then worked differently. And Shaterred Plains... We really dont know what destryoed it. So also out.

10 minutes ago, therunner said:

In addition we have never seen more than a few kilograms of Ettmetal, not tons as you speculate.

Few kilograms was on one slider. To fuel two ships (and sliders too) across the whole globe is needet hundreds of kilos, or even tons. And this is just two ships, not even metioned bombs.

21 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why? We know that eventually Rosharans leave the planet and still have surges, plus in principle Odium could make Dalinar Fused and pack up his bags and go, then you have 2 off-planet Bondsmiths, Dalinar and wielder of Honorblade, and Dalinar could reincarnate to boot. And if Scadrial attacked Roshar, those Bondsmith will be very relevant.

Dalinar still is mortal. And reling on one/two person during whole campain in space isnt very wise. Bondsmith can be only in one place, and he doesnt have Shards to protect himself. Very risky. Also, Perpendicularity have only restricted area of influence (like few hundreds of meters, maybe kilometer in diameter?)

Remember, we are talking about cosmic scale.

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mists, that no one outside of a chosen few can use, with only confirmed cases being Vin and Wax. And they cannot be used to fuel fabrials on Scadrial, unlike Stormlight.

Ekhem...

Quote

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)
#10 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

BlackYeti

Because you've talked about alloying the god metals with other ones-- I was wondering whether you would be able to melt them down as you would with normal metals.

Brandon Sanderson

If you could distill the god metal: you could distill it out of the mist, that's theoretically possible.

We  can use mists to get Ettmetal, Lerasium and Atium. Yes, this is now unknown how, but this is possible.

And thx @Frustration, i have no intention to be banned, flaged or something like this. I simply dont use good words, because my english isnt very good.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Remember, we are talking about cosmic scale.

They don't have to do Perpendicularities, and they can recharge spheres which is the main part, and Hemalurgy, and other powers can be used anywhere.

9 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Ekhem...

I think it would be better to use Duralumin compounding to use Mists for a time.

10 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

And thx @Frustration, i have no intention to be banned, flaged or something like this. I simply dont use good words, because my english isnt very good.

No problem

[Publius]

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

Mists, that no one outside of a chosen few can use, with only confirmed cases being Vin and Wax. And they cannot be used to fuel fabrials on Scadrial, unlike Stormlight.

Waxillium Ladrian is 41 years old, meaning that Harmony necessarily enabled him to use the Mists at some point within the past 41 years. In other words, Harmony has recently proven capable of granting access to the Mists.

34 minutes ago, therunner said:

Why? We know that eventually Rosharans leave the planet and still have surges, plus in principle Odium could make Dalinar Fused and pack up his bags and go, then you have 2 off-planet Bondsmiths, Dalinar and wielder of Honorblade, and Dalinar could reincarnate to boot. And if Scadrial attacked Roshar, those Bondsmith will be very relevant.

Taking the Stormfather off of Roshar would likely have grave consequences, including but not limited to:

1. No more crem deposits
2. No more Stormlight distribution - Rosharan fauna depend on crem and stormlight, iirc.
3. Singers would lose access to the forms that they obtain by going into the Highstorm, and would only be able to change into forms they obtain by going into the Everstorm.

 

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Publius said:

Waxillium Ladrian is 41 years old, meaning that Harmony necessarily enabled him to use the Mists at some point within the past 41 years. In other words, Harmony has recently proven capable of granting access to the Mists.

Depending on when Wax used the Mists, it could have been far weaker than Vin, (AoL) or made by connections independed of Harmony (BoM)

2 minutes ago, Publius said:

Taking the Stormfather off of Roshar would likely have grave consequences, including but not limited to:

1. No more crem deposits
2. No more Stormlight distribution - Rosharan fauna depend on crem and stormlight, iirc.
3. Singers would lose access to the forms that they obtain by going into the Highstorm, and would only be able to change into forms they obtain by going into the Everstorm.

The Stormfather doesn't have to leave as I said above, he doesn't have to leave

[+Bzhydack]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They don't have to do Perpendicularities, and they can recharge spheres which is the main part, and Hemalurgy, and other powers can be used anywhere.

But this still is my point - this has to be near Bondsmith. We can have one, maybe two Bondsmiths in our army. This is not enough to fuel Radiants and Fabrials very VERY far from Roshar.

[Frustration]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

But this still is my point - this has to be near Bondsmith. We can have one, maybe two Bondsmiths in our army. This is not enough to fuel Radiants and Fabrials very VERY far from Roshar.

Not all at once no, at least not without the Perpendicularity, but gems hold stormlight.

[Publius]

10 hours ago, therunner said:

He is not doing so actively, he was not even that much aware of Southern Scadrians, Ettmetal is simply condensating somewhere similarly to atium. It is entirely passive effect.

Do we actually know whether Harmony is actively or passiveliy providing the Ettmetal? e.g. if it is a Pits of Hathsin-esque process or if Sazed claps his hands and poofs some Ettmetal into existence? Comedic value of the latter example aside, I don't think we do. All we know for sure is that Sazed has provided the So-Scadrians with access to Ettmetal.

[Frustration]

Just now, Publius said:

Do we actually know whether Harmony is actively or passiveliy providing the Ettmetal? e.g. if it is a Pits of Hathsin-esque process or if Sazed claps his hands and poofs some Ettmetal into existence? Comedic value of the latter example aside, I don't think we do. All we know for sure is that Sazed has provided the So-Scadrians with access to Ettmetal.

It's like Atium

Spoiler

classicalkhlennium

Could a Shard like Harmony create new elemental metals, like harmonium, or is that unconscious--

Brandon Sanderson

So, unconscious isn't the right word, but a manifestation of his will being the same as manifestation of the laws of physics in the world, if that makes sense. It's not like a choice, it's not, like, not a choice either, to create others, it is theoretically possible, but what has happened is more in line with the laws of his realm.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

 

[Publius]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It's like Atium

  Reveal hidden contents

classicalkhlennium

Could a Shard like Harmony create new elemental metals, like harmonium, or is that unconscious--

Brandon Sanderson

So, unconscious isn't the right word, but a manifestation of his will being the same as manifestation of the laws of physics in the world, if that makes sense. It's not like a choice, it's not, like, not a choice either, to create others, it is theoretically possible, but what has happened is more in line with the laws of his realm.

Oathbringer San Diego signing (Nov. 14, 2017)

 

I take that WoB to be referring to the actual conceptual creation or invention - in other words, when Harmony first made Ettmetal into an actual thing that could exist. I think the "laws of the realm" mean that this new element came about because Vessels have corresponding Godmetals, and Sazed happens to be holding two shards, thus he will result in a hybrid Godmetal.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Publius said:

Do we actually know whether Harmony is actively or passiveliy providing the Ettmetal? e.g. if it is a Pits of Hathsin-esque process or if Sazed claps his hands and poofs some Ettmetal into existence? Comedic value of the latter example aside, I don't think we do. All we know for sure is that Sazed has provided the So-Scadrians with access to Ettmetal.

We dont know, we can just speculate.

No, Sazed was not providing Ettmetal to SoScadrians actively, because he wasnt primarly interested in South, and now he has his not-ingeration policy.

From what we saw, Godmetal on Scadrial condensate near Perpendicularity. So this is probably where Ettmetal Mines are, near (above?) Harmonys Shardpool. (I also think Harmony has second Shardpool in the North)

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Publius said:

I take that WoB to be referring to the actual conceptual creation or invention - in other words, when Harmony first made Ettmetal into an actual thing that could exist. I think the "laws of the realm" mean that this new element came about because Vessels have corresponding Godmetals, and Sazed happens to be holding two shards, thus he will result in a hybrid Godmetal.

That WoB is from after BoM was published so we knew about Harmonium at the time.

[therunner]

9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Yes I did. Ashyn is out of speculation because Magic there and then worked differently. And Shaterred Plains... We really dont know what destryoed it. So also out.

Ashyn should not be out of speculation, as it was destroyed by surges (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/450/#e14434). The WoB directly states that dangerous manipulation of surges like that is possible. In addition, Knights Radiants have their powers restricted both by Oaths (which seems to have been forced on them by Ishar) and possibly by Honor as well, and both of these restriction can be lifted by Dalinar (as he is Bondsmith and 'representative' of sort for Honor), so Ashyn-level surgebinding is in principle achievable. In addition, Eila Stele directly states that people that came from different world were using 'dangerous powers of spren and Surges' that the Singers were forbidden from. As Honor was dying he also stated that Radiants would destroy Roshar as they did their homeworld.

All of the above point to the fact that Ashynite were using Surges, even if the access method differed (Radiants use spren, Fused have them directly from Odium, current Ashynites (silence divine) have it through diseases, past Ashynites were using different conduit).

Something on Roshar destroyed Shattered Plains, therefore it is example of destructive power Rosharans can wield. It was clearly not caused by natural causes what with the symmetry and all.

We have also not actually seen the SoScad bomb destroy the temple, so its strength is purely speculative, its not like the Hunters going north knew exactly how large the temple is are what it is made of. It makes sense that they could probably guess what was needed as they knew what Sovereign did in their lands, but it is still not hard confirmation of destructive abilities of Scadrians.

9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Few kilograms was on one slider. To fuel two ships (and sliders too) across the whole globe is needet hundreds of kilos, or even tons. And this is just two ships, not even metioned bombs.

Actually we do not know that.

Primer is described as a small metal cube and can easily fit in the palm, it also bounces when thrown so it cannot be too heavy ~100 grams maximum, maybe less. Per Allik (BoM, chapter 23) these contain 'a little bit' of ettmetal. Then he points to larger light on the side, which is presumably the fuel of the slider, Marasi describes it as burning stone. Even if the entire glowing stone was made of ettmetal (which is not necessary as the entire primer glows despite not being made entirely of ettmetal) it would not be much heavier than 1-2 kilogram. If a kilogram is enough for one ship carrying seven people for multiple hours (they sleep whilst flying) and not burn out, than a hundred kilograms would be more than enough for the Brunstell (crew less than hundred) for ~5 times the time at least, depending on how effective the weight storing mechanisms are.

I think one ton of ettmetal for way Elendel Basin and back should be more than enough, based on the above reasoning. And Jordis does not seem particularly worried about running out of ettmetal even with the detour to Elendel, so either it does not burn that fast, or they brought considerable reserves.

10 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Dalinar still is mortal. And reling on one/two person during whole campain in space isnt very wise. Bondsmith can be only in one place, and he doesnt have Shards to protect himself. Very risky. Also, Perpendicularity have only restricted area of influence (like few hundreds of meters, maybe kilometer in diameter?)

If we allow Shardic intervention Dalinar could be made Fused, and so could be reborn as Fused are. I personally do not like bringing the shards into it, so I will abandon that line of reasoning.

They would not need to deploy bondsmith on battlefield, simply have him somewhere safe but reachable and he can recharge spheres as needed. Maybe stuff him in Cognitive and just bring him out for recharging spheres, Scadrians do not have easy access to Cognitive

In contrast Scadrial would have to have supply lines that would bring ettmetal, and those could be disrupted more easily.

10 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

We  can use mists to get Ettmetal, Lerasium and Atium. Yes, this is now unknown how, but this is possible.

Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12145) separating out Ettmetal does not give you Lerasium and Atium but something else, there is a way to get Lerasium and Atium but it would be more involved. Along similar lines, from the mists we would most likely get these either ettmetal or more likely these two unknown metals, as there are two kinds of mists currently on Scadrial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40/#e712).

And as you said, neither we nor Scadrians know how to do this. If we let them do anything that is possible even though they do not possess such knowledge we can have lightweavers make lasers or gamma radiation, and have elsecallers create supercritical amounts of fissile material. These are both possible, but unknown to characters.

9 hours ago, Publius said:

Waxillium Ladrian is 41 years old, meaning that Harmony necessarily enabled him to use the Mists at some point within the past 41 years. In other words, Harmony has recently proven capable of granting access to the Mists.

Well we do not know if it was through direct Shardic intervention (and I find that unlikely), or through something else, like Wax holding and using the Bands, or Wax acting in concert with the Intent of Harmony and so could tap a little of that power.

The other example in Vin was someone who was incredibly connected to Preservation, and Radiants need close connection to Honor (i.e. have a spren directly linked to their soul) to be able to get in gaseous investiture, suggesting that relatively close connection to relevant Shard is necessary for that. In principle this Connection could be achieved through various means, including direct shardic intervention, or duraluminum compounding.