Nameless

Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

1,766 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

53 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

There's going to be some diminishing returns involved, probably after the first half dozen times you do it.

@Bigmikey357 as per the Wob, the soul would only have a scar-like gap if there was not enough F-Gold to completely heal it. Notably, Miles does not have any scars despite healing from countless gunshot wounds and sveral point-blank dynamite explosions. All indications are that F-Gold heals perfectly.
Do you know of any textual support or WoB indicating that healing from F-Gold would leave behind scars or or other damage?

Invested Spike Factory:
 

Spoiler

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

 

Edited by Publius
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1 minute ago, Publius said:

@Bigmikey357 as per the Wob, the soul would only have a scar-like gap if there was not enough F-Gold to completely heal it. Notably, Miles does not have any scars despite healing from countless gunshot wounds and sveral point-blank dynamite explosions. All indications are that F-Gold heals perfectly.

Scars in the soul, not the body.

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Posted (edited)

All suppositions that F-Gold would leave scars in the soul are not only speculative, but outright contradictory to the text of the WoB. The WoB specifically indicates that a scar-like gap would occur if there was insufficient F-Gold healing, and that more F-Gold healing could fix it. The only barrier to this is if the donor began viewing themselves as someone who did not have the power in question. In this scenario, the donor knows that they had their power before, they know that whenever they are spiked they will immediately begin healing the damage, and they know that the intended outcome is for them to still have their power when the spiking process is completed - does anyone think they would plausibly view themselves as someone who does not have the power?

Finally, if this supposition is true, how can Brandon plausibly say that Miles could be turned into a Spike Factory?

Invested Spike Factory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406-general-reddit-2020/#e14304/

Spoiler

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

 

Edited by Publius
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3 minutes ago, Publius said:

All suppositions that F-Gold would leave scars in the soul are not only speculative, but outright contradictory to the text of the WoB. The WoB specifically indicates that a scar-like gap would occur if there was insufficient F-Gold healing, and that more F-Gold healing could fix it. The only barrier to this is if the donor began viewing themselves as someone who did not have the power in question. In this scenario, the donor knows that they had their power before, they know that whenever they are spiked they will immediately begin healing the damage, and they know that the intended outcome is for them to still have their power when the spiking process is completed - does anyone think they would plausibly view themselves as someone who does not have the power?

Finally, if this supposition is true, how can Brandon plausibly say that Miles could be turned into a Spike Factory?

You are interpreting our comments as being far more vocal than they are in reality, on @Bigmikey357's post he was talking about Hemalurgy's diminishing returns and I was only saying that the scars are on the soul not the body, I'm not saying it's always going to scar, I don't know that anyone is.

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31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is true but Medaillions don't create holes in the soul so it doesn't really matter whether they use Hemalurgy or not.

Do we know this for sure?

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2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Do we know this for sure?

Yes, Suit uses a medallion while having 3 spikes, iirc

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57 minutes ago, VeryNiceName said:

Yes, Suit uses a medallion while having 3 spikes, iirc

Hm, I'd missed he had three, I only remembered two. Seems pretty conclusive, then.

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@Publius

No textual evidence, just psychology and supposition.  Miles Hundredlives is a bit of a special case as he's been double Gold his entire life and was a Gold savant. He no longer even felt pain he was using Gold so much, it would have been damn difficult to budge his identity in any way. But these new double Gold constructs presumably won't have that type of resilience.  This would not be a painless process and I can imagine that if I were the one being constantly spiked I ain't trying to go through that process ad infinum. Plus we know from TLR that the Spiritweb is always recording. For example it always knew his real age and it was becoming harder and harder for him to effectively hold back that age magically. So my thoughts are that even if the hole is patched perfectly the web will still remember that it was wounded. But this discussion really makes me wonder how encisors work. 

@VeryNiceName

I think it was only 2 spikes. It could have been 3. But IIRC he only wore one at a time because 2 or more would have opened him up to Harmony and his control. 

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20 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think it was only 2 spikes. It could have been 3. But IIRC he only wore one at a time because 2 or more would have opened him up to Harmony and his control. 

Nah, four or more is the threshold for a human, two or more is just for kandra.

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Rules changed since Harmony took over. 

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6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Rules changed since Harmony took over. 

Do you have a source?

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Era 2.

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4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Era 2.

What type of rules? Details please.

we know the mists change but how do u know Hemulurgy changed. And In what way

According to Coppermind @LewsTherinTelescope is correct.

But the Coppermind does not bring a source for it

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If the argument is about how many spikes it takes to control a human or kandra, the rules for hemalurgy have not changed and it is stated that it takes 4 to control a human and two for a kandra.

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Minor quibble.  I'll withdraw my statement until I can further review.  You may very well be correct in this. 

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47 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Minor quibble.  I'll withdraw my statement until I can further review.  You may very well be correct in this. 

For direction for where you can check this, go to where Wax and his uncle are in that pit trap, hs uncle mention how he cannot have more than three blessings, referring to the spikes, or he opens himself up to Sazed's interference. 

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, Publius said:

Definitions:

  Reveal hidden contents


A-Metalname = Allomantic power of the Metal
F-Metalname = Feruchemical Power of the Metal
H-Metalname = Hemalurgical Power of the Metal
Fullborn = An individual that has access to all Allomantic and Feruchemical powers


If Roshar gets to give Ishar the Dawnshard, Ishar singlehandedly wins - Dawnpowered Surgebinding was sufficient to devastate the planet of Ashyn.

Otherwise, Scadrial has a number of options to achieve victory:
1. Spike A-Gold and F-Gold into someone with the desired power. Hemalurgically spike the desired power out of them. They can survive this and heal, via Gold compounding, allowing you to create an arbitrarily large number of spikes of any Allomantic or Feruchemical power. Create an arbitrarily large number of soldiers who have devasting powers such as A-Steel, F-Steel, A-Gold, F-Gold, A-Pewter, F-Pewter, A-Chromium, etc.
Scadrial can create an army that can break the sound barrier, survive fatal wounds, crumple steel with their bare hands, dissipate their opponents' investiture, and more.
2. Create an army as before, but do so by producing more Bands of Mourning.
3. Even without these hypothetical armies of devastation, Scadrial can field at least 3 Fullborn (or equivalents thereof): Marsh, Kelsier, and whoever is wielding the Bands of Mourning.
4. Provide the aforementioned forces with a healthy supply of Atium, allowing them to peer into the future, and easily bypass attacks that would otherwise kill them.

A fullborn should be capable of killing any Radiant except possibly Bondsmiths. The Bondsmith matchup depends whether a Bondsmith can use Connection shenanigans to defeat a Fullborn before being killed at the speed of sound.

Jasnah Kholin performed a number of impressive feats at the Battle of Thaylen City. This is notable because she appeared to be able to Soulcast things that she could not touch and which were not adjacent to her. I have compiled a list of what she was capable of doing. However, it is important to note that Dalinar's subsequent Perpendicularities have not demonstrated the same potency as the one he created after recently swearing his Third Ideal. Furthermore, compounding things like Identity, Investiture as well as Copperclouds, A-Chromium, A-Aluminum would probably protect the Scadrians from directly being soulcasted, and supersonic speed, strength, etc. should be enough to escape or break through attempts to trap them. Finally, it's not as though Bondsmiths can just swear more Oaths upon demand. If we charitably suppose that there are three Bondsmiths at the start of this conflict, all of whom are ready to swear their Third, Fourth, and Fifth ideals, that would only be six instances in which an Oath-Boosted Perpendicularity could be created. Couldn't the Scadrians simply retreat on those occasions? They would suffer loses but this should not be enough to defeat them wholesale.

Jasnah's Feats at the Battle of Thaylen City:

  Reveal hidden contents


1.
Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. He crystallized a moment later.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22283-22286). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 
2.
The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22287-22289). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
3.
She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took— barely breaking her stride— to climb to the rooftop of the next building.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22290-22291). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
4.
“Damnation,” Adolin said, waving his troops to follow as he gave chase. Jasnah was alone in that direction, trying to hold the gap. He charged down the alleyway to—
A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead. Adolin ducked, worried about Fused, but it was an ordinary soldier. The unfortunate man crashed into a rooftop. What on Roshar?
As they approached the end of the alleyway, another body smashed into the wall right by the opening. Gripping his Shardblade, Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward.
Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her...
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22502-22508). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
5.
“Or three places are nearly one,” Jasnah replied. Another batch of gloryspren flocked past, and she could see them as they were in the Cognitive Realm: like strange avians with long wings, and a golden sphere in place of the head. Well, being able to see into the Cognitive Realm without trying was one of the least unnerving things that had happened so far today.
An incredible amount of Stormlight thrummed inside her— more than she’d ever held before. Another group of soldiers broke through Shallan’s illusions and charged over the rubble through the gap in the wall. Jasnah casually flipped her hand toward them. Once, their souls would have resisted mightily. Soulcasting living things was difficult; it usually required care and concentration— along with proper knowledge and procedure.
Today, the men puffed away to smoke at her barest thought. It was so easy that a part of her was horrified.
She felt invincible, which was a danger in itself. The human body wasn’t meant to be stuffed this full of Stormlight. It rose from her like smoke from a bonfire. Dalinar had closed his perpendicularity, however. He had been the storm, and had somehow recharged the spheres— but like a storm, his effects were passing.
“Three worlds,” Ivory said. “Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close.”
“Then let’s make use of it before it fades, shall we?”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22526-22537). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
6.
A sudden whooshing sound cut him off.
He stumbled back as the wall shook, then the broken gap in it mended. Metal grew like crystals to fill the hole, springing into existence out of a tempest of rushing, howling air.
The end result was a beautiful, brilliant section of polished bronze melding with the stonework and completely sealing the gap.
“Taln’s palms,” Fen said. She and her consort stepped closer to the edge and looked down at Jasnah, who dusted off her hands, then rested them on her hips in a satisfied posture.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22595-22599). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
7.
Below, Jasnah strode away from the marvel she’d created, then knelt beside some rubble and cocked her head, listening to something. She pressed her hand against the rubble and it vanished into smoke, revealing a corpse beneath— and a brilliant Shardblade beside it.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22602-22604). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
8.
Jasnah existed halfway in the Cognitive Realm, which made everything a blurry maze of shadows, floating souls of light, and beads of glass. A thousand varieties of spren churned and climbed over one another in Shadesmar’s ocean. Most did not manifest in the physical world.
She willed steps to Soulcast beneath her feet. Individual axi of air lined up and packed next to each other, then Soulcast into stone— though in spite of the realms being linked, this was difficult. Air was amorphous, even in concept. People thought of it as the sky, or a breath, or a gust of wind, or a storm, or just “the air.” It liked to be free, difficult to define.
Yet, with a firm command and a concept of what she wanted, Jasnah made steps form beneath her feet. She reached the top of the wall and found her mother there with Queen Fen and some soldiers. They had made a command station at one of the old guard posts. Soldiers huddled outside with pikes pointed toward two Fused in the sky.
Bother. Jasnah strode along the wall, taking in the melee of illusions and men outside. Shallan stood at the back; most of the spheres around her had been drained already. She was burning through Stormlight at a terrible rate.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22652-22661). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
9.
“We’re working on it,” Navani said. “But— Jasnah! In the air—”
Jasnah raised an absent hand without looking, forming a wall of black pitch. A Fused crashed through it, and Jasnah Soulcast a flick of fire, sending the thing screaming and flailing, burning with a terrible smoke.
Jasnah Soulcast the rest of the pitch on the wall to smoke, then continued forward. “We must take advantage of Radiant Shallan’s distraction and cleanse Thaylen City. Otherwise, when the assault comes from outside once more, our attention will be divided.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22664-22668). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
10.
Jasnah stepped aside without looking as the second Fused swooped down— the reactions of spren in Shadesmar allowed her to judge where it was. She turned and swung her hand at the creature. Ivory formed and sliced through the Fused’s head as it passed, sending it curling about itself— eyes burning— and tumbling along the wall top.
“The enemy,” Jasnah said, “will not be stopped by a wall, and Brightness Shallan has feasted upon almost all of the spheres Uncle Dalinar recharged. My Stormlight is nearly gone. We have to be ready to hold this position through conventional means once the power is gone.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22669-22673). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
11.
Jasnah Soulcast a spark from the air, igniting the oil and casting up a field of flames. The Fused raised hands before their faces, stumbling back.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23103-23104). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
...
“Yes, Shallan. You did well out here.” She touched Radiant’s arm, then glanced toward the Fused, who were venturing into the fires despite the heat. “Damnation. Perhaps I should have opened a pit beneath them instead.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23108-23109). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
12.
“Come,” Jasnah said, pulling Veil back to the wall, where steps grew from the stone itself.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23111-23112). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
13.
“If I want to Soulcast the air. How?”
“Avoid air until you practice further,” Jasnah said. “It is convenient, but difficult to control. Why don’t you try to turn some stone into oil, as I did? We can fire it as we climb the steps, and further impede the enemy.”
“I...” So many beads, so many spren, churning in the lake that marked Thaylen City. So overwhelming.
“That rubble near the wall will be easier than the ground itself,” Jasnah said, “as you’ll be able to treat those stones as distinct units, while the ground views itself all as one.”
“It’s too much,” Shallan said, exhaustionspren spinning around her. “I can’t, Jasnah. I’m sorry.”
“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23116-23123). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
14.
Radiant started up the stone steps. Behind, Jasnah waved her hand toward the approaching Fused— and stone formed from air, completely encasing them.
It was brilliant. Any who saw it in only the Physical Realm would be impressed, but Radiant saw so much more. Jasnah’s absolute command and confidence. The Stormlight rushing to do her will. The air itself responding as if to the voice of God himself.
Shallan gasped in wonder. “It obeyed. The air obeyed your call to transform. When I tried to make a single little stick change, it refused.”
“Soulcasting is a practiced art,” Jasnah said. “Up, up. Keep walking.” She sliced the steps off as they walked. “Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23124-23131). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Words of Brandon that support various assertions I make during the course of this post:
Invested Spike Factory:

  Reveal hidden contents

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

A-Chromium Prevents Shardblade Summoning: (and probably prevents Shardplate as well)

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Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Copper:
A-Copper is shown to interfere with another Invested Art, in several ways. Can this be extrapolated to suppose that it would interfere with attempts to use Surges on or very close to a Smoker? I suspect the answer is yes, although I acknowledge it as an uncertainty.
A-Copper Blocks Lifesense:

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CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

A-Copper Interferes With Awakening Colors:

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OrangeJedi

If a coppercloud was near an Awakener, would they dampen the effect of the colors being deepened around them?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't thought about that. Yes. That one is a tenuous yes, though, I would have to think about it.

Nice contributions, but a few points that complicate it a bit

  1. Compounding
    1.  Per the WoB healing soul from spiking would require obscene amounts of investiture (he keeps saying theoretically and only cautiously says yes, and pointedly says it would take TON of investiture) as we have seen in Stormlight Archive that healing spiritual wounds is much more costly than healing physical ones and that was only soul being cut, not part of it torn off. So to compound enough health would take some time, at least a few hours I would assume, possibly more, so you can spike each donor 1-2 times a day at most, possibly even less then that, greatly limiting your output.
    2. You need continuous supply of gold to all donors on levels exceeding needs of Miles Hundredlives, that will be quite some economic cost. A single spike would be more expensive than most buildings when obtained like this.
  2. Number of spikes in person
    1. If they have 4 spikes and more they are opened to Shardic influence, and possibly to influence of anyone who can brute force the Connection (hint Bondsmith hint, or hint Ba-Ado-Mishram hint). This effectively limits them to twin-steel (it is very powerful) and one other attribute, unless you want to risk losing the army.
    2. There is some limit to number of spikes before you start deforming (physically and mentally) your subjects, existence of Steel Inquisitors suggests that this limit is lower than 9 spikes and afterwards they become inhuman in body and thought and require lynchpin spike to survive. This would essentially provide them with self-destruct button if you could destroy the lynch pin spike, and they are opened to Shardic influence/control or Bondsmith control.
    3. EDIT: Maximum number of spikes in individual we have seen is 21 (Marsh) and he was made this way by Ruin to use as a weapon, who had no reason to hold back, suggesting there is upper limit on number of spikes that is survivable even with lynchpin.
  3. You cannot give your soldiers atium as there are no atium mistings left, and Marsh is no Mistborn (so you cannot spike it out of him) and Kelsier is cognitive shadow (so god knows what spiking would do to him). Also, there is seemingly no atium left outside of Marshes bag and he needs that for youth else he is dead.
  4. We do not know if/how Bands of Mourning could be reproduced, since medallions are restricted to 2 (3 in extreme cases) powers. It is entirely possible that they require semi-natural Fullborn to produce and we do not know how much time that took. So far Bands seem to completely unique artifact.
  5. I have addressed limits of speed below, in short based on Marasi even Fullborn/wielder of BoM could sustain supersonic movement only for tens of seconds at a time, maybe a minute before running dry.

You will also run into population issues,

  1. Elendel Basin seems to have population in ~15 millions at best and they seem to have the highest proportion of misting/ferrings of anywhere. Mistings are somewhere around 1 in 100 at best 1 in 200 hundred at worst, and ferrings are noticeably rarer so lets say 1 in 300.  (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/101/#e882)
  2. This means that feruchemy will be the limiting factor for your industry, with only 3125 people of any given attribute available, and not all will be able (too young/old/mentally unfit) or willing to do it. Take away ~1/3 for too young and old, and about 40% for mentally unfit (compounding takes some practice and so mental acuity to pull off) and you are left with ~1200 people who would be able to undergo the procedure, not necessarily willing.
  3. This effectively means you can produce ~20000 soldiers a day at most, if you just give them all any attribute you can spike. If you want them all to have for example f-steel you are limited to 1200 soldiers a day at most.
  4. And finally, not all abilities have the same probability of occurring, in SoS Paalm and Wax both bee-lined for the one steelrunner in Elendel we know of, suggesting that steelrunners are more like ~tens-low hundreds per few million (Wax asked for a list of names of Steelrunners in Elendel, suggesting it would not be that many names, checking few hundred people would take a lot of time). So you could conceivably be limited to just hundreds of f-steel spikes per day.

Roshar has far larger population then Scadrial (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3466), comparable to Sel which is 1.5 the size of Earth, so possibly in low-mid hundreds of millions. If half of those are Singers, make a few hundred thousands of Stormform and then have them shoot lighting at Scadrians, they will be nicely conductive thanks to all the metal they will have on them, and f-steel will not help them avoid lightining as that moves at whooping ~111 000 m/s (Mach 326). The Stormform singers will take horrible losses, but they will hurt the Scadrains pretty bad. Support these with couple hundred thousands of warform singers shooting aluminum arrows and the Scadrian army should start taking some substantial losses. If the Rosharans can kill 1 for every 10-20 they lose, they could win through attrition.

And one big final issue with the army, the second Roshar figures out tones of either Harmony or Ruin/Preservation, your entire army is dead or useless. Most spikes (especially if the people have more than a few) seem to have to go to vital places and only Hemalurgy is keeping the subjects alive. If you would then turn on suppressor fabrial attuned to Harmony/Ruin the army would at best lose their powers and at worst drop dead. To figure out the tone they would most likely need to only kidnap one soldier (by having a Bondsmith take control) and then experiment a bit, or do some field experiments. A few dozen suppressor mines would ruin your army quite effectively.

For the semi-fullborn, Marsh is definitely also very sensitive to suppressors, as he needs to keep tapping youth to stay alive. So turn on suppressor near him that will mess with Hemalurgy or Feruchemy, he drops dead. Kelsier seems to be spiked into his new body, so mess with that with suppressor and he is most likely back in Cognitive and seething because he cannot do anything. Alternatively, since he is cognitive shadow in a body he might not react so well to Raysium dagger/arrow either.

Coppercloud only blocks senses (it prevents people from sensing allomancy is happening in coppercloud, but it does not prevent allomancy from being done) and only makes the Smoker himself resistant to emotional allomancy. Coppercloud is most likely not more powerful then dedicated suppressor fabrials, at best it would make the Smoker slightly more difficult to target with direct Surges like soulcasting/division.

9 hours ago, Publius said:

 @The Technovore and @therunner I would like to challenge your claims about speed, and assert that Marasi not only exceeded the speed of sound, but that she did so many times over, to reach an approximate speed of Mach 17.62, as calculated here by Dargoo Faust.

I only stated that non-compounders cannot hope to achieve sonic speeds, compounders might but it will still deplete them far too fast to make it anything but one trick usable only ~monthly/yearly at best. I would also challenge the calculation on Mach 17.62 speed of Marasi:

  1. She was tapping both F-steel and F-zinc in large amounts. We have seen that F-zinc speeds up mental process considerably to such extent that you can follow entire trains of thought in the break between two words, and f-steel speeds up your perception considerably. In this very sped up state she can only see the vacuum briefly, and she was moving and perceiving at minimum 510x normal human speed.
  2. He assumes she moved her arm from resting state to face, but Marasi just finished stealing the vials of metals and drank them. Realistically her hand is not near her resting position but much closer to some halfway state, this cuts down the speed to 8.81 Mach.
  3. The longest arc is travelled only by her fingers, that being ~about 0.5 meters assuming she started from non-resting state. Even her palm would travel only ~0.4 meters, and her wrist would travel only ~0.3 meters, giving either Mach 7 palm and Mach 5.3 for her wrist.
  4. Based on the above points I would estimate Marasis speed to be in the interval of 5-7 Mach in that scene, her angular velocity being ~6000 radians per second.

And Marasi did this only for stealing the vials and drinking them, then she noticed her reserves are draining way too fast and dialed back to speeds were there is no appreciable time interval between her actions and opponents reactions, so she was moving at 3-4x as fast them at most I would say. Since guards reacted to the sonic boom only when she slowed down, she could not have been tapping at supersonic levels for more than ~0.25 seconds (human reaction time to sound + time for sound to move), and yet she was afraid of draining too fast, if she tried to maintain this for 40 times as long (so 10 seconds) she would run out most likely.

Frankly in light of this and RAFO on Paalm compounding I think even compounders will have trouble pulling off supersonic moves for more than a dozen seconds at a time. Sure In that time they can kill lot off people, but afterwards they are sitting ducks for flying/sliding/teleporting Radiants in Plate.

9 hours ago, Publius said:

1. Copper is of negligible concern, mostly included as an afterthought. We can debate as to whether the applicable surge-blocking power would be A-Chromium, A-Aluminum, A-Copper, etc. but I will stake my claim that one of them, although I may not know which one it is, would definitely work.

2. You would not need any medallions. You could simply Hemalurgically Spike an Auger and Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker in order to obtain the powers and insert them into whoever you intend to use as a spike factory.

3. Metal supply, including that of Gold, is emphatically not an issue.
A. Metal is a renewable resource, on Scadrial

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Questioner

 

Metal in the Mistborn world, is it renewable somehow? Because when you burn it, it just goes away and then it's converted somehow into energy. Can they run out?

Brandon Sanderson

The way that atium gets back into the system is a bit of a hint... Atium grows out of crystals, and that is being distilled. Let's just say... Investiture is changing into matter as atium is being made.

B. Assuming it did run out, for the sake of argument, I've ran some math for hypothetical Scadrian populations of 2 billion and 7.75 billion (Earth's population, as of when I did the math), as shown on this Google Sheet. Scadrial's population is nowhere near those levels, mind you. Elendel, the single largest city on the planet, only has a population of 5 million. Furthermore, only a handful of Cities even exist on the planet. 2 Billion is a very long ways off.2021-04-04_19-09-14.thumb.png.89e08af3b2482538553a04d00aca73c5.png
 

4. If we wish to contemplate Vessels seizing control of Hemalurgically Spiked Entities, my response is to contemplate that Harmony, being especially connected to Scadrians because they are literally made out of Ruin and Preservation investiture on top of Hemalurgy being Ruin's magic, would either block their attempts or supersede their efforts by seizing control himself.

5. I am not Mathematician, I study Political Science and Philosophy, but their assumptions regarding the air pocket seem just as good as yours - I'm not going to die on the hill of Mach 17.62, but I hope we can all agree that, given the calculations, she should be at least faster than Sound.

6. Vin's earring is a Hemalurgical Spike, and it is very tiny. It also serves as proof that you do not need large quantities of metal in order to create a Hemalurgical Spike. Wax's earring, courtesy of Harmony, is also a Hemalurgical spike. Shooting Paalm with a Hemalurgical Spike in the size and shape of a bullet, created from Wax's melted down earring, is an important plot point in Shadows of Self. I hope you agree that these counter-examples disprove the premise that large amount of metal are necessary in order to create spikes.

Point by point

  1. A-Chromium is external, so you cannot nullify surges on yourself, but you could drain Radiant or possibly drain placed lashings. A-aluminum is only internal, so it would only help you resist surges affecting your spiritual/cognitive aspects directly, it would most likely not make you immune to lashing for example, much less having soulcasted oil dumped on top of you. A-copper would again only work internally and I addressed it above.
  2. True, but you are still limited by compounding time and number of suitable donors (adressed more fully above)
  3. In WoB you linked Brandon only states that atium is renewable (in Era 1) so a godmetal, not that any metal is renewable on Scadrial. But it running out of metal completely would not be much concern for the reasons you listed, however it would wreak havoc (especially the gold needed) on their economy.
  4. Harmony has great difficulty acting even on his own planet, we only see him take control once, on another planet it might be quite different. Especially if Bondsmith assisted Odium, or both Odium and Cultivation worked in concert, or freed Ba-Ado-Mishram worked in concert with Bondsmith. And Roshar can have at least 4 people with Bondsmith abilities (3 Bondsmith, 1 with Ishar's blade).
  5. Adressed above.
  6. Vin's earring was also created by someone guided by Ruin, more skilled/powerful bronze mistings could learn to pierce weaker copperclouds too. It definately boosted her, but just how much is hard to say. Wax's earring also gives him no abilities, it still is spike but its charge is far too weak.
9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Note that we actually see a perspective on what happened in the prologue:

There's one shot heard that nobody can agree on where it came from, and then more follow. Seems to me that Wax's theory is pretty likely.

Thanks for that, I quickly scanned the summary and then reread some chapters in SoS. In light of this yeah, Paalm did move at supersonic speeds for some short time. I adressed the speed more fully above.

6 hours ago, Publius said:

All suppositions that F-Gold would leave scars in the soul are not only speculative, but outright contradictory to the text of the WoB. The WoB specifically indicates that a scar-like gap would occur if there was insufficient F-Gold healing, and that more F-Gold healing could fix it. The only barrier to this is if the donor began viewing themselves as someone who did not have the power in question. In this scenario, the donor knows that they had their power before, they know that whenever they are spiked they will immediately begin healing the damage, and they know that the intended outcome is for them to still have their power when the spiking process is completed - does anyone think they would plausibly view themselves as someone who does not have the power?

Finally, if this supposition is true, how can Brandon plausibly say that Miles could be turned into a Spike Factory?

Invested Spike Factory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406-general-reddit-2020/#e14304/

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HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

 

He also agrees with the idea only hesitantly, and keeps saying how much investiture it would take, and Miles was savant so it might take some time to get to that level with your factory. On healing scared soul, it is how he views himself, knowing you had the ability previously is not the same as viewing it as still something you should have. Kal used to have forhead without scars but it took a while before it healed even though he wanted it gone conciously. So even knowing what is supposed to happen, and wanting it to happen might not be enough to heal the spiritual damage if subconciously they doubt it for example.

EDIT: A comment bit outside of the topic of the thread, but when electricity and magnetism are more developed hemalurgic constructs will most likely start having a bad time, as you could start ripping out their spikes with sufficiently strong electromagnets and quickly kill them.

Edited by therunner
note about marsh in relation to number of spikes, commetn at end
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7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Miles didn't take any more damage than Radiants have, and on Rshek

I didn't see any Radiant blew up with dynamite.

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3 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

I didn't see any Radiant blew up with dynamite.

Well, there is this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788) saying they can heal almost anything. And this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6336) saying difference between stormlight healing and f-gold are minor. So stormlight on its own is comparable to F-gold, so the only things stopping it is stores, so give someone enough stormlight and they will match Miles.

Plus surge fabrial can bring someone back from the dead, that is a feat beyond even F-gold, and Radiant Surges are more powerful, so Progression healing is stronger than F-gold at least in some ways.

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7 minutes ago, therunner said:

Plus surge fabrial can bring someone back from the dead, that is a feat beyond even F-gold, and Radiant Surges are more powerful, so Progression healing is stronger than F-gold at least in some ways.

This was before brain death, so Technically body was still alive. Few seconda and this would not help. And we saw this also with F-gold (Wax at the end of BoM)

Progression is more versitile, because can also speed up growth. 

And i think A-Copper should be able to block Anti-Tones. Also, this is double-sided because Seeker can hear Tones and Anti-Tones. Obce Rosharan did this, they would gave Scadrians weapon against Roshar.

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1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

This was before brain death, so Technically body was still alive. Few seconda and this would not help. And we saw this also with F-gold (Wax at the end of BoM)

Progression is more versitile, because can also speed up growth. 

And i think A-Copper should be able to block Anti-Tones. Also, this is double-sided because Seeker can hear Tones and Anti-Tones. Obce Rosharan did this, they would gave Scadrians weapon against Roshar.

Ah, true I forgot about Wax. Nevertheless stormlight healing and f-gold seem to be the same, outside of healing death where stormlight might not be enough and F-Gold requires large stores.

If seeker is in range of suppression fabrial, they cannot detect anything as their allomancy is off. And suppression fabrials cannot emit the anti-tone to given investiture, Urithiru was able to suppress Fused surges, and Fused were able to create suppression fabrials and both of these pre-date the discovery of anti-tones and anti-light. They need to be attuned somehow and that most likely requires knowledge of the pure tones of shard, but that does not mean it emits anti-tones.

And I do not think A-copper could block suppression fabrials, A-coopper only ever blocks senses and some passive investiture effects, like attuning rhythms. Fabrial is active device, and A-cooper does not block active uses of investiture, at best it helps the smoker resist some effects (only confirmed is emotional allomancy, so cognitive effect not spiritual one).

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Posted (edited)

@therunner A more comprehensive reply will come later, but for now I wish to address a few key points
1. Marasi was not compounding in order to increase her attribute stores. She was only tapping. The entire point of compounding is that you can create more of an attribute, in arbitrarily large quantities.

2. It occurs to me that spikes and medallions are, to some extent, non-optimal ways of going about this. Harmony can provide the Scadrians with Lerasium to directly create more Mistborn. Currently, he is capable providing Ettmetal. Ettmetal can be separated into Atium and Lerasium. We know that Ruin and/or Preservation were capable of creating Feruchemists in the first place, we simply don't know how. Harmony would know how. It's simply a matter of his willingness to do it himself or to divulge how to use Lerasium in order to do so, which should be assumed for the sake of this Scadrial v Roshar thought experiment.
The point being - Mistborn can definitely be directly created via Lerasium, and Harmony is capable, somehow, of creating Feruchemists - be that through some kind of Lerasium application or by editing their spiritual DNA.

3. Simply shooting the Stormform Singers to death with long-range firearms mitigates a lot of hypothetical damage from arrows and/or lightning.
 

Edited by Publius
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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Publius said:

@therunner A more comprehensive reply will come later, but for now I wish to address a few key points
1. Marasi was not compounding in order to increase her attribute stores. She was only tapping. The entire point of compounding is that you can create more of an attribute, in arbitrarily large quantities.

2. It occurs to me that spikes and medallions are, to some extent, non-optimal ways of going about this. Harmony can provide the Scadrians with Lerasium to directly create more Mistborn. Currently, he is capable providing Ettmetal. Ettmetal can be separated into Atium and Lerasium. We know that Ruin and/or Preservation were capable of creating Feruchemists in the first place, we simply don't know how. Harmony would know how. It's simply a matter of his willingness to do it, whichi should be assumed for the sake of this Scadrial v Roshar thought experiment.
The point being - Mistborn can definitely be directly created via Lerasium, and Harmony is capable, somehow, of creating Feruchemists - be that through some kind of Lerasium application or by editing their spiritual DNA.

3. Simply shooting the Stormform Singers to death with long-range firearms mitigates a lot of hypothetical damage from arrows and/or lightning.
 

  1. Of course Marasi was not compounding she did not have time to do so. However, she was tapping pre-prepared stores, and since the Bands had to be created by Fullborn, their stores were most likely created by compounding. I.e. she was passively using someone else's compounded stores for her feats. Compounding requires burning the metal with the f-attribute and then storing the resulting power, she would not have time to burn entire metalminds to do even a single compounding.
  2. If you start using Harmony to directly provide Lerasium or directly modify their spiritwebs, we might as well start asking Cultivation and Odium with help creating weapons similar to Honorblades and to help remove limitations on surgebinding placed by Honor (so it should be within Dalinar's means to remove). And if you start dragging shards actively into this, Dalinar could simply release Odium from Roshar under the condition that Odium kills Harmony, which he can do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009). No Harmony -> no Lerasium/Atium/Ettmetal + potential plasma storm in cognitive -> losing Scadrial.
  3. Put a few reverse lashings in between Stormform formations, problem with guns solved. Then you say aluminum bullets, so we need to start giving armor to stormform. And the shooting formations could not be tapping steel too fast, otherwise the guns would jam so they would be vulnerable to gravitation artillery from Skybreakers/Windrunners.

Main point being, if you drag shards into this by actively having them help Scadrial loses simply because Odium could kill Harmony in a fight, and Cultivation could create a bunch of Taravangians without downsides.

Edited by therunner
last point
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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

f you start using Harmony to directly provide Lerasium or directly modify their spiritwebs, we might as well start asking Cultivation and Odium with help creating weapons similar to Honorblades and to help remove limitations on surgebinding placed by Honor (so it should be within Dalinar's means to remove). And if you start dragging shards actively into this, Dalinar could simply release Odium from Roshar under the condition that Odium kills Harmony, which he can do (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5854) (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14009). No Harmony -> no Lerasium/Atium/Ettmetal + potential plasma storm in cognitive -> losing Scadrial.

Objection.
Harmony is already providing Ettmetal. As per WoB, Ettmetal can be separated into Lerasium and Atium. Shardblades and Shardplate are nothing more or less than an alloy of Honor and Cultivation Godmetal. It is preposterous to suppose that Rosharan Shards get to provide their side with Godmetal while Scadrian Shards are forbidden this.

Edited by Publius
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Just now, Publius said:

Objection.
Harmony is already providing Ettmetal. As per WoB, Ettmetal can be separated into Lerasium and Atium. Shardblades and Shardplate is nothing more or less than an alloy of Honor and Cultivation godmetals. It is preposterous to suppose that Rosharan Shards get to provide their side with Godmetal while Scadrian Shards are forbidden this.

He is not doing so actively, he was not even that much aware of Southern Scadrians, Ettmetal is simply condensating somewhere similarly to atium. It is entirely passive effect.

And Rosharan shards do not actively provide godmetals, that is simply the form spren take when they manifest because they are made of investiture of H+C. It is a function of the magic system on Roshar, just as storing/tapping internal attributes is a function of Scadrian magic system.

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