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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

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Posted (edited)

30 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

You cannot shot accuratly from inside the bubble, bubble border would interfere with bulet's trajectory. It has to be F-Steel.

But right, if she would be between all four grups and shoot four shots one by one, effect would be the same. But still she had to do this (go to the middle, shoot four shots and go out) in 0,1s, becauseshe was unnoticed. Of course, we dont know the distance, because we dont know how large shelter was.

But still, she was able to shot, also able to run around room killing people, and later was able to shot guards so fast noone even noticed until was too late. And has Steelrunner powers just few days, but is possible to use stolen metalminds from hemalurgicly killed Metalborn.

Anyway, I love your math and is probably correct, but books material leaves me suspicious.

I mentioned the steel bubble only because in chapter 16 of SoS when Wax is in Waynes bubble he moves at the same speed as Bleeder does when outside of it, suggesting she moves at most 11x as fast as human when doing her work (per compression factor of bendalloy from AoL). I am sorry if it sounded like I implied that Bleeder used bendalloy bubbles, I am aware their boundaries mess with trajectories.

The feat with those four shots does sound it could have been faster than ~100 m/s, but as we do not know the distances, and we do not actually see it on screen (if you talking about the crime scene from beginning of the book) so I would take any estimates of how she did it with a grain of  salt.

EDIT: And if she was doing those things in 0,1 seconds she could not have been moving at sonic/supersonic speeds, as she would be generating sonic booms and people would notice those.

Edited by therunner
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4 hours ago, therunner said:

But remember, the BCD-misting is trapped in the bendalloy bubble with the Radiant, who inside the bubble has the stormlight and so can kill the BCD-misting at his convenience. The second the duralumin-bendalloy bubble goes down the Radiant is most likely left without stormlight, but the BCD-misting who was inside with them is dead, if the Radiant has shardblade or any offensive surges.

I have a different proposal with the same abilities, start with Cadminum bubble to trap Radiant and BCD-misting in slowed time. Then BCD-misting uses Bendalloy to return to normal speed but leaves Radiant slowed, as B-bubbles are smaller than C-bubbles. Line up a shot, and drop the bubbles at the same time as you (and potentially people outside) take the shot. Repeat as needed.

That's why I had them burn Duralumin, the bubble would collapse instantly from the perspective of those inside, it would depend on how large Bend alloy bubbles can and whether or not it can extend more than seven feet.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

But still, she was able to shot, also able to run around room killing people, and later was able to shot guards so fast noone even noticed until was too late. And has Steelrunner powers just few days, but is possible to use stolen metalminds from hemalurgicly killed Metalborn.

I thought she had it for a few weeks but I could be wrong.

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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's why I had them burn Duralumin, the bubble would collapse instantly from the perspective of those inside, it would depend on how large Bend alloy bubbles can and whether or not it can extend more than seven feet.

Ah, that makes more sense. I am a bit uneasy with bubble slowing time both having the effect (i.e. speeding those inside incredibly) and yet also being gone instantly so that the misting is safe and Radiant effectively cannot move for the duration of the bubble.  It feels wrong to the depths of my physics soul :D I think I will find duralumin interacting with time-effects to be very weird to my sensibilities.

Per WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e117) Sliders do not seem to have much control over the size of the bubble, so it seems to be a set effect, probably depending on "strength" of their allomancy. However, they can flare to increase the time compression, I think we have seen this in AoL when Wayne created the bubble to help protect them from the explosion.

EDIT: Huh, searching arcanum for bendalloy and duralumin together just throws up a lot of RAFOs, with notes that Brandon seemed to be hinting it will be important in future books.

Edited by therunner
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6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I thought she had it for a few weeks but I could be wrong.

Max week. When Wax i Wayne are looking for her, they visited Terrisan's work,and get information she wasnt there around week. This was few days after mass murder.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Max week. When Wax i Wayne are looking for her, they visited Terrisan's work,and get information she wasnt there around week. This was few days after mass murder.

While Idashwy was last seen a week before the party that happens near the start of SoS, however per information from Vwafendel she vanished a month ago and was behaving erratically before that. From the description of the corpse it is probably not much older than the week though, I would wager two weeks at most, as if it was a month old I would assume someone would remark on it.

However we know that hemalurgically stolen feruchemy allows recipient to access metalminds of the donor (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/98-worldbuilders-ama/#e872), so Paalm could have simply palmed any metalminds that were left, giving her unknown amounts of speed stored there.

 

EDIT: Also Brandon RAFOed whether Paalm was compounding, so there is that. (https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/46146-sos-spoilers-failure-to-compound/?page=3#comment-342748)

 

Edited by therunner
a bit slower edit, but I think the info is very useful
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20 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You are right that abilities and Identity are not the same. Abilities are contained within Identity which is much more all encompassing.

If abilities are part of Identity, why does spiking the ability out not change his Identity?

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Posted (edited)

Definitions:

 


A-Metalname = Allomantic power of the Metal
F-Metalname = Feruchemical Power of the Metal
H-Metalname = Hemalurgical Power of the Metal
Fullborn = An individual that has access to all Allomantic and Feruchemical powers


If Roshar gets to give Ishar the Dawnshard, Ishar singlehandedly wins - Dawnpowered Surgebinding was sufficient to devastate the planet of Ashyn.

Otherwise, Scadrial has a number of options to achieve victory:
1. Spike A-Gold and F-Gold into someone with the desired power. Hemalurgically spike the desired power out of them. They can survive this and heal, via Gold compounding, allowing you to create an arbitrarily large number of spikes of any Allomantic or Feruchemical power. Create an arbitrarily large number of soldiers who have devasting powers such as A-Steel, F-Steel, A-Gold, F-Gold, A-Pewter, F-Pewter, A-Chromium, etc.
Scadrial can create an army that can break the sound barrier, survive fatal wounds, crumple steel with their bare hands, dissipate their opponents' investiture, and more.
2. Create an army as before, but do so by producing more Bands of Mourning.
3. Even without these hypothetical armies of devastation, Scadrial can field at least 3 Fullborn (or equivalents thereof): Marsh, Kelsier, and whoever is wielding the Bands of Mourning.
4. Provide the aforementioned forces with a healthy supply of Atium, allowing them to peer into the future, and easily bypass attacks that would otherwise kill them.

A fullborn should be capable of killing any Radiant except possibly Bondsmiths. The Bondsmith matchup depends whether a Bondsmith can use Connection shenanigans to defeat a Fullborn before being killed at the speed of sound.

Jasnah Kholin performed a number of impressive feats at the Battle of Thaylen City. This is notable because she appeared to be able to Soulcast things that she could not touch and which were not adjacent to her. I have compiled a list of what she was capable of doing. However, it is important to note that Dalinar's subsequent Perpendicularities have not demonstrated the same potency as the one he created after recently swearing his Third Ideal. Furthermore, compounding things like Identity, Investiture as well as Copperclouds, A-Chromium, A-Aluminum would probably protect the Scadrians from directly being soulcasted, and supersonic speed, strength, etc. should be enough to escape or break through attempts to trap them. Finally, it's not as though Bondsmiths can just swear more Oaths upon demand. If we charitably suppose that there are three Bondsmiths at the start of this conflict, all of whom are ready to swear their Third, Fourth, and Fifth ideals, that would only be six instances in which an Oath-Boosted Perpendicularity could be created. Couldn't the Scadrians simply retreat on those occasions? They would suffer loses but this should not be enough to defeat them wholesale.

Jasnah's Feats at the Battle of Thaylen City:

 


1.
Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. He crystallized a moment later.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22283-22286). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 
2.
The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22287-22289). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
3.
She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took— barely breaking her stride— to climb to the rooftop of the next building.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22290-22291). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
4.
“Damnation,” Adolin said, waving his troops to follow as he gave chase. Jasnah was alone in that direction, trying to hold the gap. He charged down the alleyway to—
A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead. Adolin ducked, worried about Fused, but it was an ordinary soldier. The unfortunate man crashed into a rooftop. What on Roshar?
As they approached the end of the alleyway, another body smashed into the wall right by the opening. Gripping his Shardblade, Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward.
Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her...
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22502-22508). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
5.
“Or three places are nearly one,” Jasnah replied. Another batch of gloryspren flocked past, and she could see them as they were in the Cognitive Realm: like strange avians with long wings, and a golden sphere in place of the head. Well, being able to see into the Cognitive Realm without trying was one of the least unnerving things that had happened so far today.
An incredible amount of Stormlight thrummed inside her— more than she’d ever held before. Another group of soldiers broke through Shallan’s illusions and charged over the rubble through the gap in the wall. Jasnah casually flipped her hand toward them. Once, their souls would have resisted mightily. Soulcasting living things was difficult; it usually required care and concentration— along with proper knowledge and procedure.
Today, the men puffed away to smoke at her barest thought. It was so easy that a part of her was horrified.
She felt invincible, which was a danger in itself. The human body wasn’t meant to be stuffed this full of Stormlight. It rose from her like smoke from a bonfire. Dalinar had closed his perpendicularity, however. He had been the storm, and had somehow recharged the spheres— but like a storm, his effects were passing.
“Three worlds,” Ivory said. “Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close.”
“Then let’s make use of it before it fades, shall we?”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22526-22537). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
6.
A sudden whooshing sound cut him off.
He stumbled back as the wall shook, then the broken gap in it mended. Metal grew like crystals to fill the hole, springing into existence out of a tempest of rushing, howling air.
The end result was a beautiful, brilliant section of polished bronze melding with the stonework and completely sealing the gap.
“Taln’s palms,” Fen said. She and her consort stepped closer to the edge and looked down at Jasnah, who dusted off her hands, then rested them on her hips in a satisfied posture.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22595-22599). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
7.
Below, Jasnah strode away from the marvel she’d created, then knelt beside some rubble and cocked her head, listening to something. She pressed her hand against the rubble and it vanished into smoke, revealing a corpse beneath— and a brilliant Shardblade beside it.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22602-22604). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
8.
Jasnah existed halfway in the Cognitive Realm, which made everything a blurry maze of shadows, floating souls of light, and beads of glass. A thousand varieties of spren churned and climbed over one another in Shadesmar’s ocean. Most did not manifest in the physical world.
She willed steps to Soulcast beneath her feet. Individual axi of air lined up and packed next to each other, then Soulcast into stone— though in spite of the realms being linked, this was difficult. Air was amorphous, even in concept. People thought of it as the sky, or a breath, or a gust of wind, or a storm, or just “the air.” It liked to be free, difficult to define.
Yet, with a firm command and a concept of what she wanted, Jasnah made steps form beneath her feet. She reached the top of the wall and found her mother there with Queen Fen and some soldiers. They had made a command station at one of the old guard posts. Soldiers huddled outside with pikes pointed toward two Fused in the sky.
Bother. Jasnah strode along the wall, taking in the melee of illusions and men outside. Shallan stood at the back; most of the spheres around her had been drained already. She was burning through Stormlight at a terrible rate.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22652-22661). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
9.
“We’re working on it,” Navani said. “But— Jasnah! In the air—”
Jasnah raised an absent hand without looking, forming a wall of black pitch. A Fused crashed through it, and Jasnah Soulcast a flick of fire, sending the thing screaming and flailing, burning with a terrible smoke.
Jasnah Soulcast the rest of the pitch on the wall to smoke, then continued forward. “We must take advantage of Radiant Shallan’s distraction and cleanse Thaylen City. Otherwise, when the assault comes from outside once more, our attention will be divided.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22664-22668). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
10.
Jasnah stepped aside without looking as the second Fused swooped down— the reactions of spren in Shadesmar allowed her to judge where it was. She turned and swung her hand at the creature. Ivory formed and sliced through the Fused’s head as it passed, sending it curling about itself— eyes burning— and tumbling along the wall top.
“The enemy,” Jasnah said, “will not be stopped by a wall, and Brightness Shallan has feasted upon almost all of the spheres Uncle Dalinar recharged. My Stormlight is nearly gone. We have to be ready to hold this position through conventional means once the power is gone.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22669-22673). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
11.
Jasnah Soulcast a spark from the air, igniting the oil and casting up a field of flames. The Fused raised hands before their faces, stumbling back.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23103-23104). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
...
“Yes, Shallan. You did well out here.” She touched Radiant’s arm, then glanced toward the Fused, who were venturing into the fires despite the heat. “Damnation. Perhaps I should have opened a pit beneath them instead.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23108-23109). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
12.
“Come,” Jasnah said, pulling Veil back to the wall, where steps grew from the stone itself.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23111-23112). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
13.
“If I want to Soulcast the air. How?”
“Avoid air until you practice further,” Jasnah said. “It is convenient, but difficult to control. Why don’t you try to turn some stone into oil, as I did? We can fire it as we climb the steps, and further impede the enemy.”
“I...” So many beads, so many spren, churning in the lake that marked Thaylen City. So overwhelming.
“That rubble near the wall will be easier than the ground itself,” Jasnah said, “as you’ll be able to treat those stones as distinct units, while the ground views itself all as one.”
“It’s too much,” Shallan said, exhaustionspren spinning around her. “I can’t, Jasnah. I’m sorry.”
“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23116-23123). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
14.
Radiant started up the stone steps. Behind, Jasnah waved her hand toward the approaching Fused— and stone formed from air, completely encasing them.
It was brilliant. Any who saw it in only the Physical Realm would be impressed, but Radiant saw so much more. Jasnah’s absolute command and confidence. The Stormlight rushing to do her will. The air itself responding as if to the voice of God himself.
Shallan gasped in wonder. “It obeyed. The air obeyed your call to transform. When I tried to make a single little stick change, it refused.”
“Soulcasting is a practiced art,” Jasnah said. “Up, up. Keep walking.” She sliced the steps off as they walked. “Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23124-23131). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Words of Brandon that support various assertions I make during the course of this post:
Invested Spike Factory:

 

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

A-Chromium Prevents Shardblade Summoning: (and probably prevents Shardplate as well)

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Copper:
A-Copper is shown to interfere with another Invested Art, in several ways. Can this be extrapolated to suppose that it would interfere with attempts to use Surges on or very close to a Smoker? I suspect the answer is yes, although I acknowledge it as an uncertainty.
A-Copper Blocks Lifesense:

 

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

A-Copper Interferes With Awakening Colors:

 

OrangeJedi

If a coppercloud was near an Awakener, would they dampen the effect of the colors being deepened around them?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't thought about that. Yes. That one is a tenuous yes, though, I would have to think about it.

Edited by Publius
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Posted (edited)

@therunner I think you've just closed the book on "can steelrunners run at mach speeds" pretty handily. I wish I had more upvotes to give, you're the best contributor here imo. The reasons it doesn't work mirror the reasons I cited for F-Iron compounding not allowing for gravity-manipulation. While *theoretically* Feruchemy seems to be able to reach these numbers, the actual mechanics of Allomancy and Feruchemy seem to function specifically to make them unattainable. Probably Brandon trying to make sure that the metallic arts don't give you anime-style super saiyans. 
 

@Publius, thanks for this high effort post. Allow me to potentially poke some holes in it.

If you're making a Fullborn with Hemalurgy, that's going to result in a couple of weaknesses, especially if you're starting with someone who's not a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist. There's the Linchpin spike, but of course it shouldn't be hard for a Fullborn to keep you away from that. There's also the issue of opening yourself up to Shards. One Wob https://wob.coppermind.net/events/71/#e2797 seems to state that for spiked individuals, any Shard can communicate, but Ruin/Harmony takes precedence in controlling them. It seems that this monstrocity of a Fullborn would be the quintessential Champion of Harmony (or Discord?). 

So, it seems plausible, essentially since we're working with the "United Scadrial" hypothetical. Do note that F-speed is now... essentially proven by established mechanics to not be feasible at Mach speed, which means that while compounders are a great threat, they're not weapons of mass destruction like previously thought. 

I think there's a lot of questions about Shardplate summoning--Jasnah describes hers as "waiting in Shadesmar", Kal's is described as "always there but insubstantial until I need it", which may just be his more uneducated way of saying the same thing. I would relent that if that's true, if you get a Leecher on a Radiant before they have their blade or plate out, they won't be able to summon it without shaking the Leecher's grip, although I would guess that if the Blade or Plate was already out, the Leecher would be signing their own death warrant.

So the thing with the Fullborn. Is there a weakness? If they're compounding everything properly (F-Zinc, A-Copper, F-Steel, F-Pewter, A-Pewter, F-Nicrosil, etc, etc,) the answer is no. Even a Mistborn with an unkeyed Zinc Metalmind would wipe the floor with nearly every Radiant, because that extra mental speed would let them manipulate their Iron and Steel to essentially be Magneto, like Kelsier fighting the Inquisitor, but better. I think that because Roshar's baseline magic user (Oath 3 Radiant) really is very powerful, a well thought out trap and a team of Radiants that have Blades, Plate, Gravitation, Division, Transformation, Progression (can revive the dead) and a Bondsmith would be capable of killing a Fullborn, but boy is that a long shot.

I'm not going to lie. Going along these lines, Scadrial is fully capable of winning. Probably until it's proven that this scenario is somehow impossible, or until Roshar is revealed to be able to do a similar thing, Scadrial wins in this scenario. "Shardbearers can't hold ground", meaning that Fullborn alone couldn't conquer Roshar, but they could do enough damage to the Radiants that the Scadrians do full victory. 
 

So basically I failed to poke holes in Publius's post, lol.

Edited by The Technovore
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Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

So, it seems plausible, essentially since we're working with the "United Scadrial" hypothetical. Do note that F-speed is now... essentially proven by established mechanics to not be feasible at Mach speed, which means that while compounders are a great threat, they're not weapons of mass destruction like previously thought. 

 

 @The Technovore and @therunner I would like to challenge your claims about speed, and assert that Marasi not only exceeded the speed of sound, but that she did so many times over, to reach an approximate speed of Mach 17.62, as calculated here by Dargoo Faust.

Quote

The Feat: "Snow hung motionless in the air. She stood up and reached to the belt of one of her captors, removing one of his vials of metal. She took them all, several from each guard. and drank them. She was tapping a metalmind, letting her move at a speed so fast that when she lifted her hand, she could briefly see the pocket of vacuum left behind"

Marasi moves faster than the air molecules can fill up the vacuum that her arm leaves behind.

Air Molecules move at 500 m/s

She moved her arm from a resting position to her face. This would be a 170 degree angle for the arc her arm moved, with a radius being half the length of the arm itself. The average female arm is 71 centimeters long, so I will use 35.5 cm for this calc.

I'll use an arc calculator to get a distance traveled of 1.03847 meters.

So we just need to know how far the air molecules moved. By the time her arm moved the full distance, she was noticing the gap being filled. Therefore, the air molecules roughly moved to fill half the width of her arm by the time she moved it (molecules on each side of the volume filling it simultaniously).

I'm just going to use an image of someone who is closest to the average female height of 5 ft 4. Two inches short for this image, but it really won't make a crazy difference.

31C7A3B300000578-0-image-a-22 1456957898217.jpg  

65 * 17 / 327.1 = 3.37 inches, or 8.59 cm.

(Distance the character moved in meters) x (Speed of projectile in meters/s) / (Distance the projectile was away from the character when he/she started to move in meters)

1.03847 * 500 / .0859 = 6044.64 m/s, or Mach 17.62. Hypersonic+

Edited by Publius
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Publius said:

Definitions:

  Reveal hidden contents


A-Metalname = Allomantic power of the Metal
F-Metalname = Feruchemical Power of the Metal
H-Metalname = Hemalurgical Power of the Metal
Fullborn = An individual that has access to all Allomantic and Feruchemical powers


If Roshar gets to give Ishar the Dawnshard, Ishar singlehandedly wins - Dawnpowered Surgebinding was sufficient to devastate the planet of Ashyn.

Otherwise, Scadrial has a number of options to achieve victory:
1. Spike A-Gold and F-Gold into someone with the desired power. Hemalurgically spike the desired power out of them. They can survive this and heal, via Gold compounding, allowing you to create an arbitrarily large number of spikes of any Allomantic or Feruchemical power. Create an arbitrarily large number of soldiers who have devasting powers such as A-Steel, F-Steel, A-Gold, F-Gold, A-Pewter, F-Pewter, A-Chromium, etc.
Scadrial can create an army that can break the sound barrier, survive fatal wounds, crumple steel with their bare hands, dissipate their opponents' investiture, and more.
2. Create an army as before, but do so by producing more Bands of Mourning.
3. Even without these hypothetical armies of devastation, Scadrial can field at least 3 Fullborn (or equivalents thereof): Marsh, Kelsier, and whoever is wielding the Bands of Mourning.
4. Provide the aforementioned forces with a healthy supply of Atium, allowing them to peer into the future, and easily bypass attacks that would otherwise kill them.

A fullborn should be capable of killing any Radiant except possibly Bondsmiths. The Bondsmith matchup depends whether a Bondsmith can use Connection shenanigans to defeat a Fullborn before being killed at the speed of sound.

Jasnah Kholin performed a number of impressive feats at the Battle of Thaylen City. This is notable because she appeared to be able to Soulcast things that she could not touch and which were not adjacent to her. I have compiled a list of what she was capable of doing. However, it is important to note that Dalinar's subsequent Perpendicularities have not demonstrated the same potency as the one he created after recently swearing his Third Ideal. Furthermore, compounding things like Identity, Investiture as well as Copperclouds, A-Chromium, A-Aluminum would probably protect the Scadrians from directly being soulcasted, and supersonic speed, strength, etc. should be enough to escape or break through attempts to trap them. Finally, it's not as though Bondsmiths can just swear more Oaths upon demand. If we charitably suppose that there are three Bondsmiths at the start of this conflict, all of whom are ready to swear their Third, Fourth, and Fifth ideals, that would only be six instances in which an Oath-Boosted Perpendicularity could be created. Couldn't the Scadrians simply retreat on those occasions? They would suffer loses but this should not be enough to defeat them wholesale.

Jasnah's Feats at the Battle of Thaylen City:

  Reveal hidden contents


1.
Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backward. He crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah’s shove had transferred to him. He crystallized a moment later.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22283-22286). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 
2.
The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22287-22289). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
3.
She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took— barely breaking her stride— to climb to the rooftop of the next building.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22290-22291). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
4.
“Damnation,” Adolin said, waving his troops to follow as he gave chase. Jasnah was alone in that direction, trying to hold the gap. He charged down the alleyway to—
A soldier with red eyes suddenly hurtled through the air overhead. Adolin ducked, worried about Fused, but it was an ordinary soldier. The unfortunate man crashed into a rooftop. What on Roshar?
As they approached the end of the alleyway, another body smashed into the wall right by the opening. Gripping his Shardblade, Adolin peeked around the corner, expecting to find another stone monster like the one that had climbed into the Ancient Ward.
Instead, he found only Jasnah Kholin, looking completely nonplussed. A glow faded around her, different from the smoke of her Stormlight. Like geometric shapes outlining her...
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22502-22508). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
5.
“Or three places are nearly one,” Jasnah replied. Another batch of gloryspren flocked past, and she could see them as they were in the Cognitive Realm: like strange avians with long wings, and a golden sphere in place of the head. Well, being able to see into the Cognitive Realm without trying was one of the least unnerving things that had happened so far today.
An incredible amount of Stormlight thrummed inside her— more than she’d ever held before. Another group of soldiers broke through Shallan’s illusions and charged over the rubble through the gap in the wall. Jasnah casually flipped her hand toward them. Once, their souls would have resisted mightily. Soulcasting living things was difficult; it usually required care and concentration— along with proper knowledge and procedure.
Today, the men puffed away to smoke at her barest thought. It was so easy that a part of her was horrified.
She felt invincible, which was a danger in itself. The human body wasn’t meant to be stuffed this full of Stormlight. It rose from her like smoke from a bonfire. Dalinar had closed his perpendicularity, however. He had been the storm, and had somehow recharged the spheres— but like a storm, his effects were passing.
“Three worlds,” Ivory said. “Slowly splitting apart again, but for now, three realms are close.”
“Then let’s make use of it before it fades, shall we?”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22526-22537). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
6.
A sudden whooshing sound cut him off.
He stumbled back as the wall shook, then the broken gap in it mended. Metal grew like crystals to fill the hole, springing into existence out of a tempest of rushing, howling air.
The end result was a beautiful, brilliant section of polished bronze melding with the stonework and completely sealing the gap.
“Taln’s palms,” Fen said. She and her consort stepped closer to the edge and looked down at Jasnah, who dusted off her hands, then rested them on her hips in a satisfied posture.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22595-22599). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
7.
Below, Jasnah strode away from the marvel she’d created, then knelt beside some rubble and cocked her head, listening to something. She pressed her hand against the rubble and it vanished into smoke, revealing a corpse beneath— and a brilliant Shardblade beside it.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22602-22604). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
8.
Jasnah existed halfway in the Cognitive Realm, which made everything a blurry maze of shadows, floating souls of light, and beads of glass. A thousand varieties of spren churned and climbed over one another in Shadesmar’s ocean. Most did not manifest in the physical world.
She willed steps to Soulcast beneath her feet. Individual axi of air lined up and packed next to each other, then Soulcast into stone— though in spite of the realms being linked, this was difficult. Air was amorphous, even in concept. People thought of it as the sky, or a breath, or a gust of wind, or a storm, or just “the air.” It liked to be free, difficult to define.
Yet, with a firm command and a concept of what she wanted, Jasnah made steps form beneath her feet. She reached the top of the wall and found her mother there with Queen Fen and some soldiers. They had made a command station at one of the old guard posts. Soldiers huddled outside with pikes pointed toward two Fused in the sky.
Bother. Jasnah strode along the wall, taking in the melee of illusions and men outside. Shallan stood at the back; most of the spheres around her had been drained already. She was burning through Stormlight at a terrible rate.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22652-22661). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
9.
“We’re working on it,” Navani said. “But— Jasnah! In the air—”
Jasnah raised an absent hand without looking, forming a wall of black pitch. A Fused crashed through it, and Jasnah Soulcast a flick of fire, sending the thing screaming and flailing, burning with a terrible smoke.
Jasnah Soulcast the rest of the pitch on the wall to smoke, then continued forward. “We must take advantage of Radiant Shallan’s distraction and cleanse Thaylen City. Otherwise, when the assault comes from outside once more, our attention will be divided.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22664-22668). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
10.
Jasnah stepped aside without looking as the second Fused swooped down— the reactions of spren in Shadesmar allowed her to judge where it was. She turned and swung her hand at the creature. Ivory formed and sliced through the Fused’s head as it passed, sending it curling about itself— eyes burning— and tumbling along the wall top.
“The enemy,” Jasnah said, “will not be stopped by a wall, and Brightness Shallan has feasted upon almost all of the spheres Uncle Dalinar recharged. My Stormlight is nearly gone. We have to be ready to hold this position through conventional means once the power is gone.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 22669-22673). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
11.
Jasnah Soulcast a spark from the air, igniting the oil and casting up a field of flames. The Fused raised hands before their faces, stumbling back.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23103-23104). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
...
“Yes, Shallan. You did well out here.” She touched Radiant’s arm, then glanced toward the Fused, who were venturing into the fires despite the heat. “Damnation. Perhaps I should have opened a pit beneath them instead.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23108-23109). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
12.
“Come,” Jasnah said, pulling Veil back to the wall, where steps grew from the stone itself.
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23111-23112). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
13.
“If I want to Soulcast the air. How?”
“Avoid air until you practice further,” Jasnah said. “It is convenient, but difficult to control. Why don’t you try to turn some stone into oil, as I did? We can fire it as we climb the steps, and further impede the enemy.”
“I...” So many beads, so many spren, churning in the lake that marked Thaylen City. So overwhelming.
“That rubble near the wall will be easier than the ground itself,” Jasnah said, “as you’ll be able to treat those stones as distinct units, while the ground views itself all as one.”
“It’s too much,” Shallan said, exhaustionspren spinning around her. “I can’t, Jasnah. I’m sorry.”
“It is well, Shallan,” Jasnah said. “I merely wanted to see, as it seemed you were Soulcasting to give your illusions weight. But then, concentrated Stormlight has a faint mass to it. Either way, up the steps, child.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23116-23123). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 
 
14.
Radiant started up the stone steps. Behind, Jasnah waved her hand toward the approaching Fused— and stone formed from air, completely encasing them.
It was brilliant. Any who saw it in only the Physical Realm would be impressed, but Radiant saw so much more. Jasnah’s absolute command and confidence. The Stormlight rushing to do her will. The air itself responding as if to the voice of God himself.
Shallan gasped in wonder. “It obeyed. The air obeyed your call to transform. When I tried to make a single little stick change, it refused.”
“Soulcasting is a practiced art,” Jasnah said. “Up, up. Keep walking.” She sliced the steps off as they walked. “Remember, you mustn’t order stones, as they are more stubborn than men. Use coercion. Speak of freedom and of movement. But for a gas becoming a solid, you must impose discipline and will. Each Essence is different, and each offers advantages and disadvantages when used as a substrate for Soulcasting.”
Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Locations 23124-23131). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Words of Brandon that support various assertions I make during the course of this post:
Invested Spike Factory:

  Reveal hidden contents

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess :)

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways :)

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

A-Chromium Prevents Shardblade Summoning: (and probably prevents Shardplate as well)

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Leecher was holding a Shardbearer and burning [chromium], would the Shardbearer be able to summon their Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No.

Copper:
A-Copper is shown to interfere with another Invested Art, in several ways. Can this be extrapolated to suppose that it would interfere with attempts to use Surges on or very close to a Smoker? I suspect the answer is yes, although I acknowledge it as an uncertainty.
A-Copper Blocks Lifesense:

  Reveal hidden contents

CealdishOrbLender

Can a Smoker block an Awakener's lifesense?

Brandon Sanderson

That will work, yes.

A-Copper Interferes With Awakening Colors:

  Reveal hidden contents

OrangeJedi

If a coppercloud was near an Awakener, would they dampen the effect of the colors being deepened around them?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't thought about that. Yes. That one is a tenuous yes, though, I would have to think about it.

Thanks for joining

a few problems though

Copper won't cause problems, at least not to the degree you are thinking, it blocks Investiture ditection and similar things, but with the exception of the smoker themselves doesn't give any other advantages, the Smoker might get some extra resistance to being Soulcast at a distance but as we see with Kal in RoW you can push through resistance with enough strength and copper is not even close to the Sibling

On Spike factories there is a number of problems you would need either an Augur, or a Bloodmaker with a medallion to even start one, and them you can only recreate one ability, being the one that they where born with.

And on top of that you need a lot of gold for even one spike.

As for the Fullborn Connection Manipulation allows them to be controlled, I don't think Kel has enough spikes but Marsh certainly does, and then he can be turned on the others.

7 minutes ago, Publius said:

 @The Technovore and @therunner I would like to challenge your claims about speed, and assert that Marasi not only exceeded the speed of sound, but that she did so many times over, to reach an approximate speed of Mach 17.62, as calculated here by Dargoo Faust.

Looking at that post it seems to assume that she had a vacuum behind the entirety of her arm, it says breifly even for someone with F-tin, F-steel and F-Zinc. She only needs to move her hand slightly faster than the air to create a vacuum just behind her hand, not over the entire distance covered.

Welcome to the Shard:D

Edited by Frustration
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15 hours ago, therunner said:

Thing is, the four shot things is something that Wax assumes happened (AoL, chapter 5), he has not actually seen it, for all we know it could have sounded like four quick shots merging together, or four separate shots but so close people did not have time to react.

Note that we actually see a perspective on what happened in the prologue:

Quote

The gunshot was so unexpected, he at first assumed that one of the servers had broken something. But no. That crack was so sharp, so earsplitting. He’d never heard a gun fired indoors before; he hadn’t known just how stunning it could be.

He gaped, the drink tumbling from his fingers as he tried to find the source of the shot. Another followed, then another. It became a storm, various sides firing at one another in a cacophony of death.

...

“What’s happening?” Winsting finally demanded as a guard slammed the door behind them and locked it. The bodyguards hurried him down the dim stairway, which was weakly lit by periodic electric lights. “Who fired? What happened?”

“No way of knowing,” Flog said. Gunfire still sounded above. “Happened too fast.”

“Someone just started firing,” another guard said. “Might have been Dowser.”

“No, it was Darm,” another said. “I heard the first shot from his group.”

There's one shot heard that nobody can agree on where it came from, and then more follow. Seems to me that Wax's theory is pretty likely.

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Posted (edited)

59 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Copper won't cause problems, at least not to the degree you are thinking, it blocks Investiture ditection and similar things, but with the exception of the smoker themselves doesn't give any other advantages, the Smoker might get some extra resistance to being Soulcast at a distance but as we see with Kal in RoW you can push through resistance with enough strength and copper is not even close to the Sibling

On Spike factories there is a number of problems you would need either an Augur, or a Bloodmaker with a medallion to even start one, and them you can only recreate one ability, being the one that they where born with.

And on top of that you need a lot of gold for even one spike.

As for the Fullborn Connection Manipulation allows them to be controlled, I don't think Kel has enough spikes but Marsh certainly does, and then he can be turned on the others.

1 hour ago, Publius said:

 @The Technovore and @therunner I would like to challenge your claims about speed, and assert that Marasi not only exceeded the speed of sound, but that she did so many times over, to reach an approximate speed of Mach 17.62, as calculated here by Dargoo Faust.

Looking at that post it seems to assume that she had a vacuum behind the entirety of her arm, it says breifly even for someone with F-tin, F-steel and F-Zinc. She only needs to move her hand slightly faster than the air to create a vacuum just behind her hand, not over the entire distance covered.

1. Copper is of negligible concern, mostly included as an afterthought. We can debate as to whether the applicable surge-blocking power would be A-Chromium, A-Aluminum, A-Copper, etc. but I will stake my claim that one of them, although I may not know which one it is, would definitely work.

2. You would not need any medallions. You could simply Hemalurgically Spike an Auger and Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker in order to obtain the powers and insert them into whoever you intend to use as a spike factory.

3. Metal supply, including that of Gold, is emphatically not an issue.
A. Metal is a renewable resource, on Scadrial

 

 

Questioner

 

Metal in the Mistborn world, is it renewable somehow? Because when you burn it, it just goes away and then it's converted somehow into energy. Can they run out?

Brandon Sanderson

The way that atium gets back into the system is a bit of a hint... Atium grows out of crystals, and that is being distilled. Let's just say... Investiture is changing into matter as atium is being made.

B. Assuming it did run out, for the sake of argument, I've ran some math for hypothetical Scadrian populations of 2 billion and 7.75 billion (Earth's population, as of when I did the math), as shown on this Google Sheet. Scadrial's population is nowhere near those levels, mind you. Elendel, the single largest city on the planet, only has a population of 5 million. Furthermore, only a handful of Cities even exist on the planet. 2 Billion is a very long ways off.2021-04-04_19-09-14.thumb.png.89e08af3b2482538553a04d00aca73c5.png
 

4. If we wish to contemplate Vessels seizing control of Hemalurgically Spiked Entities, my response is to contemplate that Harmony, being especially connected to Scadrians because they are literally made out of Ruin and Preservation investiture on top of Hemalurgy being Ruin's magic, would either block their attempts or supersede their efforts by seizing control himself.

5. I am not Mathematician, I study Political Science and Philosophy, but their assumptions regarding the air pocket seem just as good as yours - I'm not going to die on the hill of Mach 17.62, but I hope we can all agree that, given the calculations, she should be at least faster than Sound.

6. Vin's earring is a Hemalurgical Spike, and it is very tiny. It also serves as proof that you do not need large quantities of metal in order to create a Hemalurgical Spike. Wax's earring, courtesy of Harmony, is also a Hemalurgical spike. Shooting Paalm with a Hemalurgical Spike in the size and shape of a bullet, created from Wax's melted down earring, is an important plot point in Shadows of Self. I hope you agree that these counter-examples disprove the premise that large amount of metal are necessary in order to create spikes.

Edited by Publius
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13 minutes ago, Publius said:

1. Copper is of negligible concern, mostly included as an afterthought. We can debate as to whether the applicable surge-blocking power would be A-Chromium, A-Aluminum, A-Copper, etc. but I will stake my claim that one of them, although I may not know which one it is, would definitely work.

I mean, which metal it is is rather important, considering A-aluminum will wipe the Metalborn's reserves, if they have to use that one for that effect.

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, which metal it is is rather important, considering A-aluminum will wipe the Metalborn's reserves, if they have to use that one for that effect.

Isn't that easily solvable by ingesting only the necessary amount of metal at any given time, using supersonic speed to drink more when needed, combined with temporary retreats to a supply dump if more metal is needed?

Thinking about it, most of what they would do involves tapping metalminds, while intermittently compounding to refill those metalminds. They could still move fast, be very strong, and heal from their metalminds, after using F-Aluminum. The meaningful things they lose during this would be stuff like A-Chromium and the A-Aluminum itself.

Edited by Publius
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21 minutes ago, Publius said:

1. Copper is of negligible concern, mostly included as an afterthought. We can debate as to whether the applicable surge-blocking power would be A-Chromium, A-Aluminum, A-Copper, etc. but I will stake my claim that one of them, although I may not know which one it is, would definitely work.

A-Chromium flared would probably be enough of a drain to prevent surges so long as they are in conntact, at least for the lowwer oaths

22 minutes ago, Publius said:

2. You would not need any medallions. You could simply Hemalurgically Spike an Auger and Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker in order to obtain the powers and insert them into whoever you intend to use as a spike factory.

I'm pretty sure you can't steal abilities given by a spike with another spike

35 minutes ago, Publius said:

3. Metal supply, including that of Gold, is emphatically not an issue.
A. WoB (In progress, editing)


B. Assuming it did run out, for the sake of argument, I've ran some math for hypothetical Scadrian populations of 2 billion and 7.75 billion (Earth's population, as of when I did the math), as shown on this Google Sheet. Scadrial's population is nowhere near those levels, mind you.2021-04-04_19-09-14.thumb.png.89e08af3b2482538553a04d00aca73c5.png
 

I ment health stores in gold.

37 minutes ago, Publius said:

4. If we wish to contemplate Vessels seizing control of Hemalurgically Spiked Entities, my response is to contemplate that Harmony, being especially connected to Scadrians because they are literally made out of Ruin and Preservation investiture on top of Hemalurgy being Ruin's magic, would either block their attempts or supersede their efforts by seizing control himself.

Odium can solo Harmony, so it's best for Scadrial we leave shards out of it.

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Odium actually present a real threat to Harmony, because he-- *interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson

So Harmony is vastly more powerful than Odium.

Questioner

Yeah. 

Brandon Sanderson

Elend was vastly more powerful than Vin. Who would win in a fight?

Questioner

Vin.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, there's your answer.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

38 minutes ago, Publius said:

5. I am not Mathematician, I study Political Science and Philosophy, but their assumptions regarding the air pocket seem just as good as yours - I'm not going to die on the hill of Mach 17.62, but I hope we can all agree that, given the calculations, she should be at least faster than Sound.

Oh she is, but the Bands are way beyond the powers of any normal metalborn

39 minutes ago, Publius said:

6. Vin's earring is a Hemalurgical Spike, and it is very tiny. It also serves as proof that you do not need large quantities of metal in order to create a Hemalurgical Spike. Wax's earring, courtesy of Harmony, is also a Hemalurgical spike. Shooting Paalm with a Hemalurgical Spike in the size and shape of a bullet, created from Wax's melted down earring, is an important plot point in Shadows of Self. I hope you agree that these counter-examples disprove the premise that large amount of metal are necessary in order to create spikes.

Again it's not the amount of metal but the stores inside them that I think will run out.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:
41 minutes ago, Publius said:

2. You would not need any medallions. You could simply Hemalurgically Spike an Auger and Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker in order to obtain the powers and insert them into whoever you intend to use as a spike factory.

I'm pretty sure you can't steal abilities given by a spike with another spike

I agree that you can't spike a spike-granted-power. You misunderstood what I am suggesting, and I'll try to clarify:

  1. Hemalurgically Spike an Auger, to create an A-Gold Hemalurgical Spike.
  2. Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker, to create an F-Gold Hemalurgical Spike.
  3. The "donors" in 1 and 2 are now dead, and we don't need them for the rest of this.
  4. Locate a Scadrian that exhibits your desired power, such as a Steelrunner for F-Steel.
  5. Spike that Scadrian to grant them A-Gold and F-Gold.
  6. They can now survive, and heal completely, when you spike them to create an F-Steel Hemalurgical Spike.
  7. Repeat as necessary to obtain arbitrarily large amounts of spikes for any given power.

 

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16 minutes ago, Publius said:

Isn't that easily solvable by ingesting only the necessary amount of metal at any given time, using supersonic speed to drink more when needed, combined with temporary retreats to a supply dump if more metal is needed?

I mean, it's manageable, but it's still a wrinkle that needs to be worked out and can add in a moment of weakness.

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On 02/12/2020 at 6:11 PM, seriodor said:

Is the fight a Fullborn with unlimited metal VS a Radiant with unlimited Stormlight? I think in that situation a Fullborn wins every time. If they both had just an equal amount of fuel available, but the Fullborn still had an equal amount of each metal, I'd still say the Fullborn. If you take into account the rarity of each of their sources of power, then I'd say the Radiant wins, because a lot of the Alloymancy stuff would require a supply line to smelters and access to stuff that's hard to get ahold of. Radiants just need to have spheres. We haven't seen the capabilities of a Fifth Ideal Radiant though, so maybe they'd do better.

I think it would be a standstill as their healing would cancel each other out. But are we including god metals? 

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3 minutes ago, JCahoon789 said:

I think it would be a standstill as their healing would cancel each other out. But are we including god metals? 

We're necessarily including Godmetals if the Radiant is using a Shardblade - Shardblades are an alloy of Honor and Cultivation's respective Godmetals.

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@Publius

I can see your argument and it seems plausible but not exactly practical.  It seems to me you could achieve these goals much simpler with medallion tech. You'd probably prefer Hemalurgy because nobody except the spiked person can use the powers granted but the logistics of using that much hemalurgy is rather daunting and messy.

  You have outlined the steps already. Getting  the human material is going to be a huge challenge in the first place. But say you do so. There's going to be some diminishing returns involved, probably after the first half dozen times you do it. There will also be losses, lots of them. You gonna have the people you most want to utilize be some of the most violent protesters.  You need a way to guard your operation or get a bunch of metalborn to buy into the scheme. But even waving away that obstacle you're losing 3 of 4 people to make one super soldier with compound healing and one extra power.  No mistborn,  they don't exist in nature anymore.  You could of course make one but then you get an Inquisitor and that's going to be extremely difficult to control, or you get a completely new Hemalurgic construct with unknown strengths and more importantly,  weaknesses. 

Or maybe you can make new Bands, but that's something only Kelsier knows how to do and I'm just not seeing him share the secret.  And as far as using him to go attack Roshar, that's even more unlikely unless it's his program. I can't see Marsh,  the only guy with any Atium left, even doing that. 

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50 minutes ago, JCahoon789 said:

I think it would be a standstill as their healing would cancel each other out. But are we including god metals? 

No on both accounts. Radiant healing is inferior to gold healing and all the Fullborn needs to do is crush their skull in a second.

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

No on both accounts. Radiant healing is inferior to gold healing and all the Fullborn needs to do is crush their skull in a second.

Actually we have zero reason to belive gold is supperior to Stormlight

And crushing their skull in a second depends on where they start from and the order.

Edit: and with infinate stormlight it's possible that they wouldn't be able to break the plate

Edited by Frustration
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We don't know how medallion creation works, it could easily involve Hemalurgy, especially with a name like Excisors (but there's no way that people are just taking the power, killing the previous user, and putting it in the medallion, because that doesn't help the issue of not having enough metalborn).

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually we have zero reason to belive gold is supperior to Stormlight

And crushing their skull in a second depends on where they start from and the order.

Edit: and with infinate stormlight it's possible that they wouldn't be able to break the plate

Miles blew himself up and healed, and Rashek had said he survived being decapitated, burned, and flayed. That's a lot more than Stormlight, which can't healed a Radiant if something crushes their head.

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, VeryNiceName said:

We don't know how medallion creation works, it could easily involve Hemalurgy, especially with a name like Excisors (but there's no way that people are just taking the power, killing the previous user, and putting it in the medallion, because that doesn't help the issue of not having enough metalborn).

That is true but Medaillions don't create holes in the soul so it doesn't really matter whether they use Hemalurgy or not.

At least not for our purposes

Edit: @Aspiring Writer

Miles didn't take any more damage than Radiants have, and on Rshek

Spoiler

Logic_Nuke

Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

Most forms of extreme cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 6, 2015)

Arabas

The question is about the Lord Ruler's death.  He is basically killed because Vin was able to remove his Feruchemy storage bracelets thus depriving him of his stored youth and strength correct?  Once he didn't have access to these she could simply kill him like a normal man.Now on page 627 about the 3rd paragraph down the Lord Ruler states " I've survived burning and beheadings.  I've been stabbed and sliced, crushed and dismembered." (I also think this is also reference somewhere else in the book that I could not locate)If all it took to drain the Lord Ruler of his power was to remove access to his Feruchemy items wouldn't he have died if he was dismembered?  Remove the storage devices from the trunk of the body and he would die?

Peter Ahlstrom

I asked Brandon about this once, and I'm pretty sure he said the beheading survival part was a lie/exaggeration. I'd have to go back and check my notes.

The Lord Ruler would have reason to want people to believe he had survived beheadings and being burned to ash.

TWG Posts (April 9, 2008)

 So no Gold has not shown itself to be any better than Stormlight

Edited by Frustration
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