Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Nope.

All we've seen made from Aluminium on Roshar is neckless, coated with IT lances (and not even all Heavenly Ones are equiped with IT), and some Plates and foil. Is literaly unknown to most people.

And on Scadrial we've seen literaly whole train wagon full of Aluminium and this wasnt one-time event. We've seen many guns made from Aluminium. Everybody knows about IT, recognize IT, knows its properties. Right, is expensive, but is much more common than on Roshar.

Right, but on Scadrial aluminum is heavily involved with all magic systems, and can effectively negate some (pushing/pulling, rioting/soothing), so it stands to reason most people would be aware of it especially if they expect to fight Mistings. Also since they were aware of its applications for the last 3 centuries, of course their already build capacity for sourcing aluminum is greater. However as aluminum weapons do not seem to be standard issue, it is clearly not common enough to equip most people with it.

In contrast, on Roshar, there was no surgebinding for the last 2000 years, during this time aluminum was nothing but a curious novelty (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14293), for not being soulcastable and possibly for seeming to resist a bit shardblades (if someone thought to try it), so general populace would have no reason to pay much attention to it. Aluminum became industrially/militarily important on Roshar only in the last year or so and it takes time for knowledge to proliferate. The important players now all recognize at least some of its uses, and as they are all in positions of power, they should have no problem commanding people to obtaining more of it.

It is possible that Fused have bigger issues producing it, as it seems that their surges work slightly differently, and have different limitations then those of Knights. As it stands, Aluminum is easily sourced with soulcasting and now that it has relatively large strategic importance it should be easy to employ Elsecallers and Lightweavers to produce relatively large amounts, potentially creating larger amounts in shorter time than Scadrial can (until Scadrial can start building power plants and extracting it from bauxite in larger amounts). In summary, while literally at the moment Scadrial does seem to produce larger amounts of aluminum, I think that Roshar can outpace their production within another year or two, as they can scale their production much more easily than Scadrial can.

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, Scadrial should now be mostly able to produce some from bauxite as they do already use electricity habitually, if they posses the knowledge of chemistry to do so. However they are still limited by mining of bauxite, which would take longer to scale.

Edited April 3, 2021 by therunner
last note

[+Bzhydack]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

It is possible that Fused have bigger issues producing it, as it seems that their surges work slightly differently, and have different limitations then those of Knights. As it stands, Aluminum is easily sourced with soulcasting and now that it has relatively large strategic importance it should be easy to employ Elsecallers and Lightweavers to produce relatively large amounts, potentially creating larger amounts in shorter time than Scadrial can (until Scadrial can start building power plants and extracting it from bauxite in larger amounts). In summary, while literally at the moment Scadrial does seem to produce larger amounts of aluminum, I think that Roshar can outpace their production within another year or two, as they can scale their production much more easily than Scadrial can.

Yes, Aluminium can be obtained by Soulcasting, but I doubght it is easy. Fabrial Soulcasters can produce Aluminium only if are Connected to Foil Essence, and this isn't common (I think Smoke Soulcasters are most common?). Also, Aluminum resists Investiture, probably Soulcasting it is costly in Stormlight and for Soulcasters. We didn't see any Radiant making IT, even Jasnah.

So, i think still faster would be produce Aluminium from normal industry. Scadrial allready Has Electricity set up and Rolling.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Nope.

All we've seen made from Aluminium on Roshar is neckless, coated with IT lances (and not even all Heavenly Ones are equiped with IT), and some Plates and foil. Is literaly unknown to most people.

And on Scadrial we've seen literaly whole train wagon full of Aluminium and this wasnt one-time event. We've seen many guns made from Aluminium. Everybody knows about IT, recognize IT, knows its properties. Right, is expensive, but is much more common than on Roshar.

Roshar has enough Aluminum to plate the entire interior of Urithiru's underground tunnels in it.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Roshar has enough Aluminum to plate the entire interior of Urithiru's underground tunnels in it.

But where it is? IT is not there. Probably just coroded, so no, Roshar don't have it.

[Frustration]

Just now, Bzhydack said:

But where it is? IT is not there. Probably just coroded, so no, Roshar don't have it.

Moved somewhere obviously, even corroded it would prevent the Fused from entering.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Yes, Aluminium can be obtained by Soulcasting, but I doubght it is easy. Fabrial Soulcasters can produce Aluminium only if are Connected to Foil Essence, and this isn't common (I think Smoke Soulcasters are most common?). Also, Aluminum resists Investiture, probably Soulcasting it is costly in Stormlight and for Soulcasters. We didn't see any Radiant making IT, even Jasnah.

So, i think still faster would be produce Aluminium from normal industry. Scadrial allready Has Electricity set up and Rolling.

Fabrial soulcasters are more limited then Radiants (and generally surge fabrials), so it stands to reason that Radiants can produce it. Aluminum resists investiture itself, but if that translates to greater cost of investiture when producing aluminum is not given. But this is moot point, as between Dalinar and Highstorms they have nearly unlimited amount of light available. We have seen no Radiant produce it, because until the now they had no reason to produce it in larger amounts.

I would personally assume that aluminum will probably be more costly on investiture front, but not enough that they cannot produce it in large quantities, as in history they clearly did produce it in large enough quantities to literately line entire base of Urithiru with it.

The issue with industrial production is that it is limited by 1) Mines 2) Transportation 3) Electricity output. All three of these are not easy to scale, so any increase in production capacity will take time, at least years. In contract, Roshar are limited by 1) Number of Radiants+Soulcasters 2) Stormlight, and the second of these is non-issue with Dalinar and regular Highstorms, so they can quickly scale if needed.

In principle, Roshar can scale faster and produce aluminum faster and easier per kilogram. However they are limited by their personal, so in enough time I would expect Scadrial to overtake them again, unless the growth in Radiants numbers outpaces industrial growth of Scadrial. For near future I would expect Roshar to outproduce Scadrial, but in ~20-40 years down the line I would expect Scadrians to take the lead again, if they focus on mining and smelting.

[ScadrianTank]

I've been trying to think about a loadout one would equip a Metalborn to fight a Radiant. Specifically, a combination of a weapon and a Medallion to maximize the fighter's chances. To not run into questions of availability and plausibility, I limited myself to only using Medallions that grant two powers and give them to someone who is already a Misting or a Ferring, so no Twinborn or Bands of Mourning. Also, there will only be technology that Scadrians already use, so no fancy Ettmetal railguns, nukes, or directed shrapnel launchers.

The way our hypothetical Scadrian wins is basically by pulling a Lezian, incapacitating first, then attacking until the Radiant dies. It sounds similar to how you would kill a Bloodmaker, but Radiants heal much faster, so yeah. We can do that in two ways, one using guns, another using a knife and Feruchemical steel. 

With a gun, we probably only need Allomantic Bendalloy and Feruchemical steel to shoot and reload faster. If we can get an Ettmetal cube, we add Allomantic chromium to leech away Radiant's Stormlight from a distance. If not, the next best thing would probably be to increase accuracy, so we add their Allomantic/Ferruchemical tin or Feruchemical zinc. So Bendalloy Misting with an F-steel and A-chromium/Tin/F-Zinc Medallion. That might get easier if you can throw in some dynamite or other explosive.

With a steel Ferring, I see several approaches that depend on how much a Radiant can do while you are stabbing him in the spine. If one can leech Stormlight fast enough to drain the initial Stormlight stores away quickly and Radiant can't use their Light because it's healing them, we get A-chromium and A-pewter. If leaching isn't fast enough and Radiant still can't use their Stormlight, we get A-pewter and maybe F-Iron to make yourself harder to move. If Radiant CAN use their Surges, we should probably consider F-gold and either Allomantic or Feruchemical aluminum. F-aluminum should protect from Soulcasting while A-aluminum might(?) protect from other Surges. 

P.S. I have no idea how to kill a fourth Oath Radiant without a machine gun and an argument about how many foot-pounds of energy it takes to break a Shardplate. Same thing with Skybreakers and Windrunners, shooting at flying targets with anything semi-auto is unrealistic. I also didn't use any Compounding because twin steel breaks everything. 

 

[The Technovore]

43 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

I've been trying to think about a loadout one would equip a Metalborn to fight a Radiant. Specifically, a combination of a weapon and a Medallion to maximize the fighter's chances. To not run into questions of availability and plausibility, I limited myself to only using Medallions that grant two powers and give them to someone who is already a Misting or a Ferring, so no Twinborn or Bands of Mourning. Also, there will only be technology that Scadrians already use, so no fancy Ettmetal railguns, nukes, or directed shrapnel launchers.

The way our hypothetical Scadrian wins is basically by pulling a Lezian, incapacitating first, then attacking until the Radiant dies. It sounds similar to how you would kill a Bloodmaker, but Radiants heal much faster, so yeah. We can do that in two ways, one using guns, another using a knife and Feruchemical steel. 

With a gun, we probably only need Allomantic Bendalloy and Feruchemical steel to shoot and reload faster. If we can get an Ettmetal cube, we add Allomantic chromium to leech away Radiant's Stormlight from a distance. If not, the next best thing would probably be to increase accuracy, so we add their Allomantic/Ferruchemical tin or Feruchemical zinc. So Bendalloy Misting with an F-steel and A-chromium/Tin/F-Zinc Medallion. That might get easier if you can throw in some dynamite or other explosive.

With a steel Ferring, I see several approaches that depend on how much a Radiant can do while you are stabbing him in the spine. If one can leech Stormlight fast enough to drain the initial Stormlight stores away quickly and Radiant can't use their Light because it's healing them, we get A-chromium and A-pewter. If leaching isn't fast enough and Radiant still can't use their Stormlight, we get A-pewter and maybe F-Iron to make yourself harder to move. If Radiant CAN use their Surges, we should probably consider F-gold and either Allomantic or Feruchemical aluminum. F-aluminum should protect from Soulcasting while A-aluminum might(?) protect from other Surges. 

P.S. I have no idea how to kill a fourth Oath Radiant without a machine gun and an argument about how many foot-pounds of energy it takes to break a Shardplate. Same thing with Skybreakers and Windrunners, shooting at flying targets with anything semi-auto is unrealistic. I also didn't use any Compounding because twin steel breaks everything. 

 

A refreshing perspective, have an upvote. I think if we had a Mistborn with a couple Feruchemical powers via medallion, they'd be able to handle (nearly) any Oath 4 1-on-1 (Duralumin + Pewter + a hammer or mace solves the plate cracking issue), but I think if they had to deal with more than 2 Radiants at a time they'd die or be forced to retreat pretty quickly, especially if one of them is an Edgedancer.

Edited April 3, 2021 by The Technovore

[BenduLuke]

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Breaking the sound barrier would be beyond most steelrunners, even compounders won't be doing that regularly

Where did you get the ripping part of their Identities?

That would require Sel.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself Allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than Allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon has since confirmed that the lerasium was burned
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

It is not Anti-investiture, it's inert, the Coppermind is the Wikipedia of Brandon, it's useful, but only as good as it's sources, never has aluminum been destroyed when in contact with Investiture, as we know Anti-investiture is.

I'm not entirly understanding what you mean.

Breaking the sound barrier is not a problem. 

Compounding[edit]

A steel Compounder would be able to use steel to have a nearly infinite supply of physical speed.^[16] They would not be able to run faster-than-light. If not careful, the Steelrunner could kill themselves from running too quickly by factors like air resistance. (Steel armor could help with this)

I got it mostly from Tefts death after his spren was killed.

Alright you took me to literally. Counter investiture.  Brandon chose aluminum for the role it serves because it is rare pre-industrial age, then becomes incredibly common, providing a way for technology to counter Allomancy. It has been shown to counter other forms of investiture and its metalic properties also enable this.

14 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Okay, so you know how Wikipedia isn't a valid citation in any academic or school paper? That's because it's edited by the (somewhat knowledgable) public and therefore is prone to error and corruption. Same deal applies here. I see conversations at least twice a week about how a detail or sentence in the Coppermind is wrong, and needs changing or fixing. 

Point is, the Coppermind does NOT provide a fully accurate or valid basis of knowledge for any topic. Any citations to the Coppermind will be questionable, and if all your knowledge is based on the Coppermind, you're in for a world of hurt when debating cosmere mechanics (much like what you've been getting in this thread, coincidentally). It's really best to be able to point at things in the books directly or at WoBs. WoBs are generally as canon until a book contradicts one or a later WoB contradicts an earlier one. Hope that's helpful.

 

Also, Bendu, I think the confusion is in the distinction between a Spiritweb, and Identity.

A Spiritweb is the entirety of someone's "code" in the Spiritual Realm. Investiture, Connection, Identity, (and Fortune?) are all pieces of that spiritweb. Identity is what tells apart Sazed from Kelsier. Connection and Fortune involve Kelsier's Connection to Ruin and Preservation, and his destiny as inciting the Skaa rebellion, and Sazed's Connection to Vin, Kelsier, and being the Hero of Ages (being Hero of Ages probably also involves a heavy dose of Fortune and Identity). Investiture is the innate power, it's what makes Kelsier a Mistborn and Sazed a Feruchemist. I think the basis of all these problems, Bendu, is that you've conflated Identity with Spiritweb. 

If you went back to all of your previous statements about Identity, and replaced the word with "Spiritweb", and suddenly your conjectures would be making a LOT more sense. You'd be right in that Connection and Identity are crucial pieces of a Spiritweb. But you'd be wrong that they are largely the same thing, as they describe two different aspects of the Spiritweb.

Even in your Quicksilver scenario--Quicksilver's antics would be making a lot more sense if you described it as him manipulating his entire Spiritweb (which is unlikely to be able to accomplish with just Aluminum compounding, you'd need to be a Full Feruchemist or Fullborn). 

Hope that helps as well.

 

Also aluminum is most definitely NOT Anti-Investiture, it doesn't interact with Investiture at all except to make it stop working, If it was Anti-Investiture it would immediately explode or combust whenever a Metalborn tried to use it.

Coppermind is as valid as any of the WoB's. Allot has not been done in the books yet our most reliable source. On metals qualities or other investiture quotes they are in the books as quoted in the books in the Coppermind so are reliable.

For all we know the spiritweb is incapsulated within the Identity, at the very least the Identity makes up a significant part of the Spiritweb and like connection is indivisible from it.

Brandon doesn't discuss spiritweb with anymore detail than he does Identity or Connection and he often when discussing them does so in reference to each other.

Aluminum counter investiture see response above.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I am putting the same kinds of information together, so I can respond in one place.

Full suit of steel armor weight at 15-25 kg (33-55 lbs), so a lot more then `few extra pounds`. For a thug most likely not slowing them down that much, but it will slow them down some.

Neither hammer nor shot put throws are known for their accuracy, so I am not sure how accurate could such throws be. And yes I am aware that pewter also seems to improve dexterity and as a result maybe also accuracy somewhat, but that is at normal human speeds, not at 10-20x times the normal human speeds. I suspect here pewter dexterity would not help them that much.

To store speed they need to move, just burning pewter and storing will do nothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352/#e10297). Second, Bands of Mourning, the most filled metalmind ever seen created definitely by compounder (most likely fullborn) were the size of oversized spearhead, and they were still not as invested as shardblades, so at best maybe comparable to shardplates. Your postulated non-compounder could not even scratch that, so their armour would be most likely barely invested when it comes for defensive purposes. Even full metalmind (which we have never seen as far as I know) would most likely only resist shardblade, and non-compounder does not have access to enough investiture to fill the entire plate, most likely even 50 of non-compounders could not store enough.

You also did not address the fact that the second armor leaves the thug/runner hand, it will get slowed down very fast, as it would experience Newton drag ~v^2. Hammer with head of area 0.02m^2 (so 20 by 10 centimeters) thrown at 200m/s would take 2 seconds to fly 200 meters, anything beyond 400 meters would have more than 10 seconds to react, and this neglects gravity, which would complicate aiming much more. However, anyone close than those 200 meters, especially if they were on a ground would have a bad day indeed.

I would not call it contradictory. Incomplete? Yes. For degree of durability we actually have some hard limits, 2-3 bullets to shatter section for example. Heat resistance was not yet shown in books, so there we do not have much to go on, outside of the weight of plate and the fact that Nightblood (heavily invested metal) would have rather high melting point. Not fully accurate information is not the same as contradictory information.

He occasionally talks to Wax/tries to get him to do stuff, far cry from making lerasium beads for him. Most of his actions are indirect, only telling his agents what to do, not enabling them (he did not even share how to make radios which would much smaller impact than making lerasium). And most of his active involvement was against incursion from seemingly another Shard, Trell.

The reason Scadrian have Harmonies investiture in them is because Ruin and Preservation created the entire planet and everything on it wholesale. It does not mean that your average Scadrian is more invested than average person from elsewhere in the Cosmere.

No, all Scadrians do not have unawakened potential to be Mistborn, some have potential to be Mistings and then Mists can snap them to make it so. What is plausible is not just dependant on Identity, but on spiritweb as whole i.e. also Connections and such. If your parents did not have correct spiritDNA to allow their offspring to be Mistborn (however heredity of spiritual aspects works) than it is outright impossible (unless random spiritDNA mutations are a thing) for child to be born Mistborn, i.e. it is incredibly unlikely outcome (if we allow for random spiritual mutation). As a result the stamp would quickly wear off even if you were stamped when storing the native Identity.

And again, we are supposed to compare Roshar vs Scadrial, not Scadrial and other planets vs Roshar.

No, what was shown is that aluminum repels captured spren in conjoined fabrials. Huio even speculates that it is because of aluminum interfering with connection of the two halves of singular spren in conjoiner. If Huio is correct than aluminum would have no effect on other fabrials and free spren.

Aluminum is sufficiently common that Fused are equipped with aluminum covered lances. And again, because it can be soulcast it is as common as surgebinders with Transformation want it to be.

On coppermind page of Aluminum, there is literally no mention of the words anti, anti-metal or anti-investiture. All the coppermind says is that it is

1. Investiture-inert, i.e. not pushable/pullable, unaffected by surges, unforgable, unawakanable, ignores invested cutting property.
2. Interferes with active uses of investiture, i.e. disrupts time bubbles, shields from rioting/soothing, blocks metallines, seems to interfere with some connections (conjoiner fabrial spren)...this is most likely extension of the investiture-inert property
3. It can be used in Metallic arts, for a) wiping interal investiture reserves (and metals as well) b ) storing Identity c) removes all powers (but this requires proper bind point, or heart)

 

I appreciate your math, but we are talking about a world with different degrees of physical force. Steelrunning comes with increased reaction which also helps with aim, but I think you missed the point of throwing the Hammer. It was meant as saying that even if a radiant is flying they are not entirely secure, and a hammer moving at mach speed (reference above as well) would be hard to dodge if on target. It would also travel far though the further the less likely it would be on target. Oh I noticed while re-reading Steelrunner qualities that it can increase burning speed more than Duralumin, which adds another aspect of this proposed twin. A pewter burner who has more than pewter/duralumin power. Yes he has to move but that is no obstacle to a person burning pewter since they simply store the potentially unnecessary speed while burning pewter and moving around. Rarely does a pewter burner need all the speed they have access to. To use your estimate a pewter burner has the potential to move 3 times faster than normal, but instead he moves normal speed and stores the extra 3 times speed from burning pewter when ever possible. Instead of wasting pewter by just burning it away before bed they flare it to store speed just before bed.

counter investiture in trivia. you took me to literally. It always interfers with investiture where ever it pierces, and with intent it is a hemalurgic spike which nullifies all investiture. You missed un-healable.

did you miss harmony trying to set up defense against odium in SA? He does more than talk to Wax he sends him actual help and arranges what he needs to potentially succeed. He can produce Lerasium if he chooses so long as he stays within balance. Never the less all Scadrians do have the potential to be Allomancers even mistborn, but that potential is rarely awakened regardless why that is. Any with Terris anscestry also have the potential for Feruchemy as well.

One of the advantages Scadrians have over Rosharans is that they can take advantage of other planets investiture to enhance their own. They are literally able to add almost any other form of investiture to their own innate investiture. Metal arts work everywhere without hacks no other investiture does.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Fabrial soulcasters are more limited then Radiants (and generally surge fabrials), so it stands to reason that Radiants can produce it. Aluminum resists investiture itself, but if that translates to greater cost of investiture when producing aluminum is not given. But this is moot point, as between Dalinar and Highstorms they have nearly unlimited amount of light available. We have seen no Radiant produce it, because until the now they had no reason to produce it in larger amounts.

I would personally assume that aluminum will probably be more costly on investiture front, but not enough that they cannot produce it in large quantities, as in history they clearly did produce it in large enough quantities to literately line entire base of Urithiru with it.

The issue with industrial production is that it is limited by 1) Mines 2) Transportation 3) Electricity output. All three of these are not easy to scale, so any increase in production capacity will take time, at least years. In contract, Roshar are limited by 1) Number of Radiants+Soulcasters 2) Stormlight, and the second of these is non-issue with Dalinar and regular Highstorms, so they can quickly scale if needed.

In principle, Roshar can scale faster and produce aluminum faster and easier per kilogram. However they are limited by their personal, so in enough time I would expect Scadrial to overtake them again, unless the growth in Radiants numbers outpaces industrial growth of Scadrial. For near future I would expect Roshar to outproduce Scadrial, but in ~20-40 years down the line I would expect Scadrians to take the lead again, if they focus on mining and smelting.

The problem with soulcasting aluminum is that it stays what it is without the industrial ability to change its form. Aluminum sheets stay aluminum sheets and wires stay wires. So yes Roshar could potentially produce the material but they lack the tech to work with it much beyond that. It has also been said to be difficult to soulcast what ever that means in terms of the Cosmere. Scaling soulcasting is a problem to since the soulcasters if they start doing to much will begin to turn to metal which is both lethal and irreversible since they will likely be an aluminum statue. Even before that the aluminum in their system may block their ability to soulcast altogether. Progression will be blocked as well so no healing for them even with a little move toward savantism. We don't know where they got the aluminum for Urithiru or the affects of assembling that quantity.

@ScadrianTank You really only need a steel compounder with alluminum weapons who hits the Fourth oath before they even realize they are being attacked or give them a big hammer to crack the plate over and over until they can stab an aluminum blade shoot an aluminum bullet into a lethal spot.

Oh 2 or 3 bullets may only be referring to regular bullets to shatter shardplate sections, it might be a different story for armor piercing rounds or even vindication hazekiller rounds.

Edited April 3, 2021 by BenduLuke

[+Bzhydack]

40 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

P.S. I have no idea how to kill a fourth Oath Radiant without a machine gun and an argument about how many foot-pounds of energy it takes to break a Shardplate. Same thing with Skybreakers and Windrunners, shooting at flying targets with anything semi-auto is unrealistic. I also didn't use any Compounding because twin steel breaks everything. 

if Radiant cannot fly, use explosives in Aluminum casings, should be able to blow up him to pieces, Shardplate or not. Heavy explosives should be able to do three things:

1. Shatter Shardplate.

2. Force Radiant to burn really large amount of Stormlight to heal.

3. Break gemstones with Stormlight reserve and disperse it.

[Frustration]

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Breaking the sound barrier is not a problem. 

Compounding[edit]

A steel Compounder would be able to use steel to have a nearly infinite supply of physical speed.^[16] They would not be able to run faster-than-light. If not careful, the Steelrunner could kill themselves from running too quickly by factors like air resistance. (Steel armor could help with this)

Did you check your source? Because if you would look at the WoB that that 16 links to it says nothing about breaking the sound barrier.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I got it mostly from Tefts death after his spren was killed.

Identity isn't mentioned there at all.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind is as valid as any of the WoB's. Allot has not been done in the books yet our most reliable source. On metals qualities or other investiture quotes they are in the books as quoted in the books in the Coppermind so are reliable.

No it isn't, the coppermind is only as good as it's sources, and as stated above it's not the best at keeping true to the sources. The coppermind is written by fans, WoB's are written by Brandon, tell me, which is more accurate?

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

For all we know the spiritweb is incapsulated within the Identity, at the very least the Identity makes up a significant part of the Spiritweb and like connection is indivisible from it.

"For all we know" is not a great place to argue from.

33 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon doesn't discuss spiritweb with anymore detail than he does Identity or Connection and he often when discussing them does so in reference to each other.

Brandon does not always refrence them together, and it would be weird to have two names for the same thing.

and as an extra note

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Miles Hundredlives. If you were to spike his Allomantic gold out of him, would that change his Identity such that he could no longer access his metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

That would not necessarily change his Identity, but it would change his Investiture. So if you took off the piece of his soul that could do Allomancy, and then gave him his metalminds. Well, no... No, this is more complicated than I was assuming. So you're saying if someone took away his ability to do Allomancy, could he still access his Feruchemy metalminds. Yes he could. He could still do that. That should work just fine. 

Questioner

Do the metalminds kind of have a pointer to his Identity, they don't have a copy of his Identity that they're keyed to? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... he is still him unless you spike him and do something with the Identity specifically. 

Questioner

So you could potentially steal his Identity.

Brandon Sanderson

That strays into RAFO territory, so we'll go ahead and give you a RAFO card. But simply taking it away would not change his Identity to the point that it would prevent-- Good question. Very detailed.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Notice how abilities and Identity are not the same.

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

counter investiture in trivia. you took me to literally. It always interfers with investiture where ever it pierces, and with intent it is a hemalurgic spike which nullifies all investiture. You missed un-healable.

1. Hemalurgy is healable
2. You would have to hit a very specific region of the heart for that to work

38 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

did you miss harmony trying to set up defense against odium in SA? He does more than talk to Wax he sends him actual help and arranges what he needs to potentially succeed. He can produce Lerasium if he chooses so long as he stays within balance. Never the less all Scadrians do have the potential to be Allomancers even mistborn, but that potential is rarely awakened regardless why that is. Any with Terris anscestry also have the potential for Feruchemy as well.

Harmony is all but incapable of action by his own admission.

39 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

One of the advantages Scadrians have over Rosharans is that they can take advantage of other planets investiture to enhance their own. They are literally able to add almost any other form of investiture to their own innate investiture. Metal arts work everywhere without hacks no other investiture does.

All magics can be worked together, and Awakening is far more useable anywere, do you want me to add Nightblood to the list of Rosharan weapons?

40 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Never the less all Scadrians do have the potential to be Allomancers even mistborn, but that potential is rarely awakened regardless why that is. Any with Terris anscestry also have the potential for Feruchemy as well.

They are born with a specific powerset, not just untapped potential that can go any direction

43 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The problem with soulcasting aluminum is that it stays what it is without the industrial ability to change its form. Aluminum sheets stay aluminum sheets and wires stay wires. So yes Roshar could potentially produce the material but they lack the tech to work with it much beyond that. It has also been said to be difficult to soulcast what ever that means in terms of the Cosmere. Scaling soulcasting is a problem to since the soulcasters if they start doing to much will begin to turn to metal which is both lethal and irreversible since they will likely be an aluminum statue. Even before that the aluminum in their system may block their ability to soulcast altogether. Progression will be blocked as well so no healing for them even with a little move toward savantism. We don't know where they got the aluminum for Urithiru or the affects of assembling that quantity.

Radiants are immune to savantism, or at least heavily resistant, and why would they need to change the shape? Far easier to carve wood or mold stone or crem and then soulcast it.

45 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh 2 or 3 bullets may only be referring to regular bullets to shatter shardplate sections, it might be a different story for armor piercing rounds or even vindication hazekiller rounds.

That was specifically 2-3 bullets for Wax with Vindication.

[BenduLuke]

 

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Did you check your source? Because if you would look at the WoB that that 16 links to it says nothing about breaking the sound barrier.

Identity isn't mentioned there at all.

No it isn't, the coppermind is only as good as it's sources, and as stated above it's not the best at keeping true to the sources. The coppermind is written by fans, WoB's are written by Brandon, tell me, which is more accurate?

"For all we know" is not a great place to argue from.

Brandon does not always refrence them together, and it would be weird to have two names for the same thing.

and as an extra note

  Hide contents

Questioner

So, Miles Hundredlives. If you were to spike his Allomantic gold out of him, would that change his Identity such that he could no longer access his metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

That would not necessarily change his Identity, but it would change his Investiture. So if you took off the piece of his soul that could do Allomancy, and then gave him his metalminds. Well, no... No, this is more complicated than I was assuming. So you're saying if someone took away his ability to do Allomancy, could he still access his Feruchemy metalminds. Yes he could. He could still do that. That should work just fine. 

Questioner

Do the metalminds kind of have a pointer to his Identity, they don't have a copy of his Identity that they're keyed to? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... he is still him unless you spike him and do something with the Identity specifically. 

Questioner

So you could potentially steal his Identity.

Brandon Sanderson

That strays into RAFO territory, so we'll go ahead and give you a RAFO card. But simply taking it away would not change his Identity to the point that it would prevent-- Good question. Very detailed.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

Notice how abilities and Identity are not the same.

1. Hemalurgy is healable
2. You would have to hit a very specific region of the heart for that to work

Harmony is all but incapable of action by his own admission.

All magics can be worked together, and Awakening is far more useable anywere, do you want me to add Nightblood to the list of Rosharan weapons?

They are born with a specific powerset, not just untapped potential that can go any direction

Radiants are immune to savantism, or at least heavily resistant, and why would they need to change the shape? Far easier to carve wood or mold stone or crem and then soulcast it.

That was specifically 2-3 bullets for Wax with Vindication.

He wouldn't have any problem with friction and windresistance unless he was moving supersonic so whats to check.

Take it as my interpretation of his complete collaps after feeling like a big part of his soul was ripped out violently.

Oh just to be clear "The Spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, or object. Residing in the Spiritual Realm, Spiritwebs lack any tangible shape or size, with their borders defined by their Identity."

Oh and Miles identity would change just not enough to debilitate him. When I said you forgot healing I was refering to physical healing. Until removed aluminum interferes with all forms of healing from investiture. So hit a Radiant in the heart, head, neck, vein, artery, or any other potentially lethal place with aluminum and it is game over no matter how much stormlight or gold they have and it has the potential of neutralizing all their stormlight to boot..

You are right that abilities and Identity are not the same. Abilities are contained within Identity which is much more all encompassing.

Harmony is restricted buy not incapable. To get around his restrictions he uses tools like Wax and the Kondra.

Tell that to Spook Harmony flat out made him a mistborn. So the potential is there even if not awakened.

Radiants are more resistant to the downside of savantism that a person who uses a soulcaster, but are still vulnerable to it.

Brandon actually said it depended on the bullet used in vindication among other factors.

"Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment."

Oh did you notice the spiritweb is within the Identity? Oh and the WoB is within the coppermind.

[therunner]

32 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

 

He wouldn't have any problem with friction and windresistance unless he was moving supersonic so whats to check.

He most certainly would have, at 200 m/s speeds the air drag (aka wind resistance) would be ~30 kN, so the wind would impart on 80 kg person ~370 m/s² acceleration, enough to very quickly slow the steelrunner down, unless they kept exerting themselves. How exactly does steelrunning work is a good question, but since apparently they do not ignore environmental effects like air drag, they would probably need to tap extraordinary amounts just to stay at this speed, to accelerate they would pull even more.

And nearly infinite supply =/= nearly infinite speed, rocket could have nearly infinite supply of fuel but that does not mean it can move infinitely fast, as the environmental factors kick in.

[BenduLuke]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

He most certainly would have, at 200 m/s speeds the air drag (aka wind resistance) would be ~30 kN, so the wind would impart on 80 kg person ~370 m/s² acceleration, enough to very quickly slow the steelrunner down, unless they kept exerting themselves. How exactly does steelrunning work is a good question, but since apparently they do not ignore environmental effects like air drag, they would probably need to tap extraordinary amounts just to stay at this speed, to accelerate they would pull even more.

And nearly infinite supply =/= nearly infinite speed, rocket could have nearly infinite supply of fuel but that does not mean it can move infinitely fast, as the environmental factors kick in.

Seemingly steelrunning is not affected by inertia. it is the wind resistance causing friction that is the problem or moving so fast that there is not enough available air due to wind resistance or perhaps the wind making it hard to see. In SoS steelrunning was shown to have the person moving so fast they were little more than a blur unless you are in a Bendalloy bubble and then they look like they are moving regularly, and that is with the restriction of storing speed regularly not compounding or filling with pewter. The first thing you would want at high speed are some goggles long before you were moving fast enough to be in danger of friction damage. 100's of mph is certainly within possibility before friction and wind become a health issue. At mach speed you would want a helmet if for nothing else than bug splatter. Maybe light armor in case of air detritus. The only stated speed limit is the speed of light.

Edited April 3, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Seemingly steelrunning is not affected by inertia. it is the wind resistance causing friction that is the problem or moving so fast that there is not enough available air due to wind resistance or perhaps the wind making it hard to see. In SoS steelrunning was shown to have the person moving so fast they were little more than a blur unless you are in a Bendalloy bubble and then they look like they are moving regularly, and that is with the restriction of storing speed regularly not compounding or filling with pewter. The first thing you would want at high speed are some goggles long before you were moving fast enough to be in danger of friction damage. 100's of mph is certainly within possibility before friction and wind become a health issue. At mach speed you would want a helmet if for nothing else than bug splatter. Maybe light armor in case of air detritus. The only stated speed limit is the speed of light.

The human body is not durable enough to handle mach speeds.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Take it as my interpretation of his complete collaps after feeling like a big part of his soul was ripped out violently.

Ok and your soul is a lot more than identity.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh just to be clear "The Spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, or object. Residing in the Spiritual Realm, Spiritwebs lack any tangible shape or size, with their borders defined by their Identity."

Defined, so it Identifies it, you will note that Teft didn't die from that, but his spren did, how is that possible if the very thing that tells the Cosmere who is who has said that he's dead? That's like saying that the floor is made out of floor, it's how it's identified not what makes it.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and Miles identity would change just not enough to debilitate him. When I said you forgot healing I was refering to physical healing. Until removed aluminum interferes with all forms of healing from investiture. So hit a Radiant in the heart, head, neck, vein, artery, or any other potentially lethal place with aluminum and it is game over no matter how much stormlight or gold they have and it has the potential of neutralizing all their stormlight to boot..

Again on removing stormlight in order to destroy something with Hemalurgy you have to penetrate the correct section of the heart, you can't just shoot them anywhere.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Harmony is restricted buy not incapable. To get around his restrictions he uses tools like Wax and the Kondra.

Spoiler

"I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult."

OB epigraph chapter 55, seems pretty incapable to me, and using other people iis not evidence that he has the ability to make Lerasium, or that he would, and again any time you bring Shards into this you let me do it to, and Roshar has two functioning shards, one of which could solo Harmony.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Tell that to Spook Harmony flat out made him a mistborn. So the potential is there even if not awakened.

No, that was Harmony making a change, not bringing dormant power to life, it was similar to a weaker version of Lerasium.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Radiants are more resistant to the downside of savantism that a person who uses a soulcaster, but are still vulnerable to it.

Radiant Savantism is much less pronounced than Fabrial Savantism, and even then it's a Decades long process to start showing effects, and even then, nothing says that they would turn into aluminum, just metal.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon actually said it depended on the bullet used in vindication among other factors.

"Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment."

It says there is an argument, that he could, and from Wax, I'm inclided to doubt anyone other than a story protagonist ever accomplishing that shot.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh did you notice the spiritweb is within the Identity? Oh and the WoB is within the coppermind.

Yes I did, and did you notice I responded to it? 

Edit: that's the WoB you are using to say that the Spiritweb is made of Identity? That talks about how Connection and Age work with the Spiritweb in relations to Atium Compounding but not Identity.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Frustration

[The Technovore]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

"The Spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, or object. Residing in the Spiritual Realm, Spiritwebs lack any tangible shape or size, with their borders defined by their Identity."

 Reading comprehension moment. "The spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture." That's the spiritweb.
"Their borders defined by their Identity." If the Spiritweb was the city of Luthadel, Identity would be the city walls, Connections being the roads and buildings, and the people being the Investiture. It's not a perfect metaphor, but there you go. Are the wall sof Luthadel the entirety of Luthadel? No. But it is an important piece that defines "what is Luthadel" from "what is [Insert City Here]." 
What you're theorizing is that by compounding Aluminum you can essentially remove the city walls, and then rebuild them to also include an entirely different city and that's going to be just fine and only do good things for you. Speculation that unfounded is outside of the realms of intellectual honesty in this discussion.

 

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Coppermind is as valid as any of the WoB's.

Did you read what I said? The Coppermind is consistently wrong, it's being changed and updated constantly. It's not written by Brandon like Frustration said. NO. The Coppermind is not as valid as any of the WoBs. It's an effective refresher on names and places and trivia facts, but you CANNOT form an accurate basis on magic mechanics by just reading and quoting the Coppermind. 

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

If not careful, the Steelrunner could kill themselves from running too quickly by factors like air resistance. (Steel armor could help with this)

Metal armor is not going to help, the force with kill them the second they moved.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh just to be clear "The Spiritweb is the network of Connections and Investiture which make up the soul of a creature, place, or object. Residing in the Spiritual Realm, Spiritwebs lack any tangible shape or size, with their borders defined by their Identity."

Yes, so identity defines it's borders, meaning it is a part of the spiritweb, not the other way around. The identity is one one of the many things that make up the web.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

You are right that abilities and Identity are not the same. Abilities are contained within Identity which is much more all encompassing.

the abilities deal more with investiture than identity, mate.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Tell that to Spook Harmony flat out made him a mistborn. So the potential is there even if not awakened.

Well, remember this was just after he ascended, so the intents of the shards hadn't completely affected him yet to cause this. That's how Vin was able to attack Ruin. And Harmony did not awaken potential, he basically did what lerasium did to give Hoid, who is not a Scadrian, powers of Mistborn. 

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh did you notice the spiritweb is within the Identity? Oh and the WoB is within the coppermind.

That is not what that WoB said. It said Idenity defines it borders, which would say Spirit web is affected by Identity, not part of it. And again, tone down the snark.

 

For the Aluminium production argument, Soulcasters will probably help Rosharans keep up, but Scadrians will have automated the production which will, in the end, produce far more than they can with their soulcasters (And the fact the Soulcasters will start turning into what they soulcast means there is a limit to how much you can use them, while machinery doesn't have that same weakness.)

 

[wheelbarrow]

Hi, I haven’t been reading this conversation, but I think Roshar would win with no evidence to back it up, hope that helps

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The human body is not durable enough to handle mach speeds.

Use of Feruchemy automaticly increases body's properties to match atribute. Wax was able to move, while being dozens of times heavier - normally, he shouldn't be able to move even eyeballs (increase of weight feruchemicaly can be compare to larger acceleration, like in centrifuge).

Also, we have evidence in book showig us supersonic speed of steelrunner.

Bleeder was able to move to four places and shot four shots so fast, that they were percived as one shot. This mean she had to run faster than soundwaves, to be on place of shot before first soundwave reach it.

Marasi also was able to move supersonic. She was able to take and drink many metal vials from many people in time shorter than 0,1s (perception of human eye). And yes, she generated sonic boom, is described people around her covered eares.

[VeryNiceName]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Use of Feruchemy automaticly increases body's properties to match atribute. Wax was able to move, while being dozens of times heavier - normally, he shouldn't be able to move even eyeballs (increase of weight feruchemicaly can be compare to larger acceleration, like in centrifuge).

Also, we have evidence in book showig us supersonic speed of steelrunner.

Bleeder was able to move to four places and shot four shots so fast, that they were percived as one shot. This mean she had to run faster than soundwaves, to be on place of shot before first soundwave reach it.

Marasi also was able to move supersonic. She was able to take and drink many metal vials from many people in time shorter than 0,1s (perception of human eye). And yes, she generated sonic boom, is described people around her covered eares.

Right, but we know for a fact that friction is an issue from this 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

My friend wants to know how fast steel Compounders could possibly go, can they run up walls or over water like the Flash?

Blightsong (paraphrased)

*jokingly* Can they run through time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Steelrunners can resist a lot things due to the power, like they can withstand the Gs they are out through, but they can't ignore wind resistance and friction. They will burn up if they start running too quickly.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

 

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, VeryNiceName said:

Right, but we know for a fact that friction is an issue from this 

Bleeder is Kandra, much more durable than human.

Marasi is fullborn with Bands, have F-Gold, A-Pewter and F-Bronze to compensate friction and heat.

For "normal" steelrunner it can be a problem, but i think proper suit should solve this.

[Bigmikey357]

Except in terms of Compounding,  Feruchemy is not stackable, at least not in the way being proposed.  I guess Wax is who one would choose as a counter example as he constantly stores weight only to release it in multiples of force.  But the thing is he is only storing his own weight,  not anything magically enhanced.  Amazing tricks and techniques but ultimately it's his own stuff. For the hypothetical A-Pewter F-Steel twin, the allomantic portion of the speed increase cannot be stored in the steel metalmind because that just isn't what steel stores. It only stores speed from the person, but the power of Allomancy specifically does not come from the person.

What that ultimately means is that as long as you're flaring pewter you can move closer to your normal speed while storing speed but even then you're only storing a trickle at a time. I say flaring because a normal pewter burn doesn't really increase a person's speed all that much. The reaction time is what increases dramatically.  Even the scene where we see Kelsier and Vin doing the pewterdrag run they weren't going but maybe 2-3 times as fast as a normal person. What made them able to cover such huge distances wasn't so much speed but the fact that they never had to stop or slow down,  for hours on end. If it were stackable in such a manner that would break the magic system completely.  Compounders already strain the system to its absolute limits. 

So basically it takes years of storing to get as much speed as say Sazed used to make his run across Luthadel. It took months of speed storage for Paalm to pull her tricks in SoS and she had none left by the end of that book.  So the hypothetical agent spends a couple months to a year being slow.  Knowing how long it takes to rebuild the reserve,  why oh why would he try to reach supersonic speeds in a fight? 27x as fast as the fastest human ever would likely get the job done against anyone he's fighting,  but even if he had that much speed stored up then  he just wiped his entire reserve for one strike. It's a trick that could only work maybe once a year. 3 times as fast can probably get the job done just as well and you still have enough to maybe fight another day. 

[Frustration]

I'll throw Scandrial a life rope because I've been thinking about this recently and I think it would make for a nice discussion

For this to work Scnadrial needs either a MIstborn, or a Bendalloy/Cadmium/Duralumin misting with a medallion giving the other two.

I think you can see where this is going.

So you have you Mistborn/Medallion Misting that I'm just going to call a Mistborn for convieniance and get close enough to a Radiant to get a Bendalloy bubble aroundd them and burn Duralumin, and instantly disipate all of their stormlight without having to touch them, them the Mistborn drops to the ground and duralumin burns Cadmium, which prevents them from being attacked while their friends get hours to shoot at the Radiant without any consequences.

Now there are a few problems with this

1. Every metal used is really expencive, and Bendalloy doubly so as both it's component parts are rare.
2. The Mistborn is at risk of getting hit even on the ground
3. The stratagy is only effective for Solo Radiants.

[therunner]

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Oh and Miles identity would change just not enough to debilitate him. When I said you forgot healing I was refering to physical healing. Until removed aluminum interferes with all forms of healing from investiture. So hit a Radiant in the heart, head, neck, vein, artery, or any other potentially lethal place with aluminum and it is game over no matter how much stormlight or gold they have and it has the potential of neutralizing all their stormlight to boot..

You are right that abilities and Identity are not the same. Abilities are contained within Identity which is much more all encompassing.

Harmony is restricted buy not incapable. To get around his restrictions he uses tools like Wax and the Kondra.

Tell that to Spook Harmony flat out made him a mistborn. So the potential is there even if not awakened.

Radiants are more resistant to the downside of savantism that a person who uses a soulcaster, but are still vulnerable to it.

Brandon actually said it depended on the bullet used in vindication among other factors.

"Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment."

Hemalurgy requires correct bindpoints to work, so hitting Radiant with aluminum would not be enough, although the wound would not heal until aluminum was removed. And if they have plate you need to get through that first.

No, abilities are distinct from Identity (per pretty much everything and how feruchemy works).

Harmony rewrote Spooks spiritweb manually, Spook never had potential to be Mistborn, if he did he would become one when he snapped. Also Harmony did it when he was not yet restricted by his opposing intents.

In that WoB on bullets and plate if you just highlighted different things you would notice that the one bullet is also right shot, right bullet, right moment, i.e. situation where everything goes perfectly for Wax.

11 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Seemingly steelrunning is not affected by inertia. it is the wind resistance causing friction that is the problem or moving so fast that there is not enough available air due to wind resistance or perhaps the wind making it hard to see. In SoS steelrunning was shown to have the person moving so fast they were little more than a blur unless you are in a Bendalloy bubble and then they look like they are moving regularly, and that is with the restriction of storing speed regularly not compounding or filling with pewter. The first thing you would want at high speed are some goggles long before you were moving fast enough to be in danger of friction damage. 100's of mph is certainly within possibility before friction and wind become a health issue. At mach speed you would want a helmet if for nothing else than bug splatter. Maybe light armor in case of air detritus. The only stated speed limit is the speed of light.

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, we have evidence in book showig us supersonic speed of steelrunner.

Bleeder was able to move to four places and shot four shots so fast, that they were percived as one shot. This mean she had to run faster than soundwaves, to be on place of shot before first soundwave reach it.

Marasi also was able to move supersonic. She was able to take and drink many metal vials from many people in time shorter than 0,1s (perception of human eye). And yes, she generated sonic boom, is described people around her covered eares.

Steelrunning is affected by inertia, they suffer g-forces when accelerating or turning but the magic compensates for that (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695). And the very same WoB also states that they cannot ignore friction and wind resistance. So wind resistance would be slowing down any steelrunner, and they would need to tap more to compensate for that.

Thing is, the four shot things is something that Wax assumes happened (AoL, chapter 5), he has not actually seen it, for all we know it could have sounded like four quick shots merging together, or four separate shots but so close people did not have time to react. Bleeder is not shown doing anything close to this on screen. The compression factor of bendalloy is roughly 11x fold per AoL (coppermind), so if Bleeder looks as if moving normally from inside the speedbubble, than she is moving 11x as fast in reality, i.e. she would be moving at 99 m/s at best quite far from sonic speeds.

Marasi was also using BoM (BoM, chapter 28, pg. 395 and after), the fullest metalminds ever seen created by Fullborn most likely, and was literally tapping everything. After drinking those vials she also stopped tapping speed so hard as she was startled how quickly the reserves were draining, and after this the guards could still move fast enough relative to her to start aiming at her, so she is not moving at supersonic speeds for more than a few seconds. Wax when tapping the BoM is not tapping speed so hard, as he could have a conversation with Suit and generally he did not seem to be tapping speed much.

Now, what are the limits of f-steel? Per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e6126) the feruchemy is increasingly inefficient the harder you tap. In the WoB proper he seems to imply that the increase in tapping speed is relative to storing speed, but in other he says that otherwise, so I will assume that you can always tap without any penalty 100% of attribute, i.e. if you have stored what is effectively 100% speed increase for 1 hours, you can tap it, move at 2x the usual speed and do it for one hour. Now we can analyze the WoB and try to figure out what penalties would be for n-fold tapping speed. I also assume that 100% speed for movement (running, walking etc.) is 9m/s, as that is roughly what above average person can sustain for a 100 meter dash.

Scenario 1
    We assume that the increasing tapping is not getting progressively difficult, just equally difficult. At 2x tapping we get 5/6 inefficiency, at 3x we get 1/2 inefficiency, ratio of these is 3/5, so then in the most optimistic scenario the penalty when tapping n-fold is 5/6(3/5)^(n-1). If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *5/6 * (3/5)^(n-1), so

1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.05 hours = 3 minutes (with original store being 100% (9m/s) speed for 100 hours)
2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 0.00015 hours = 0.5 second
3. Tapping at 30x speeds, to get total of 30+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*31 = 279 m/s), the time would be 6*10^(-7) hours = 0.0022 second = 22 ms
4. Tapping at 40x speeds, to get total of 35+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*41 = 369 m/s, our first sonic speed!), the time would be 0.00001 second = 0.1 ms

So, even in the most optimistic scenario normal steelrunner cannot move anywhere near sonic speeds for more than literal mili/microseconds, and in such short time they can barely move from the spot before completely depleting their entire stores. This was the most optimistic scenario based on what Brandon has said, where we neglected that what he actually says is that each increase is harder than the one before, which is what I will do now.

Scenario 2
        Now we assume that tapping is getting progressively more difficult. The easiest curve we can fit (and yes I know we have only 3 datapoints, but we also now the loss should be multiplicative and should go to zero only in infinite limit) is (5/6)^((n-1)^2), as for 2x fold we get 5/6 penalty and for 3x fold we get (5/6)^4 ~ 0.5. If I had 100 hours of 100% speed stored the time I would get out when tapping n-fold would be 100/n *(5/6)^((n-1)^2), so

1. Tapping at 10x speeds, to get total of 10+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*11 = 99 m/s), the time would 0.004 second = 4 ms (with original store being 100% speed for 100 hours)
2. Tapping at 20x speeds, to get total of 20+1 the human speed (i.e. 9*21 = 189 m/s), the time would be 7*10^(-27) second
3. The other two scenario would be even smaller numbers, so sonic speeds are completely out of question.

So the scenario 1 is something of upper bound, f-steel cannot be much better than this, and most of the limitation is simply due to not having enough stores. The scenario 2 is more akin to lower bound, f-steel is not likely to be worse than this, so I would assume that truth is somewhere in the middle, but I would assume it to be closer to scenario 1 than scenario 2, as what Bleeder demonstrates on-screen throughout the book seems to roughly in line with it, or at least the correct order of magnitude.

Either way sonic speeds are outside of limits of non-compounding steelrunner, as to get 1 second of slightly supersonic speeds they would need to have store one million hours of full speed, that is 114 years of non-stop storing. Frankly any speeds over 150 m/s would tap their reserves way to fast for not that great a benefit.

The above also completely neglects that air resistance is a thing and steelrunners do experience it(https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2695), that speed is among the most difficult attributes to store as you yourself need to be moving (per Sazed...and I think this means really moving, not tapping your leg or waving arms and storing that). Someone running 8 hours a day would be running at ~5m/s if we are being very generous, that nets them ~1500 hours of 100% speed (9m/s) after a year, and using all of these stores would net them only 1.5 ms of slightly supersonic speed. However it would give them around 45 minutes of 100m/s speed (if we are assuming the most favourable scenario), or 7.5 seconds at ~190 m/s.

Now of course someone with A-pewter could get around some of this, burning pewter roughly doubles the physical attributes and flared triples, this results in

1. For storing this is effectively just a multiplier, thug/runner combo could have 3x the size of his stores, so after a year he could have 4500 hours of 100% speed stored, and since he could maintain sprint for the entire time his store would roughly roughly double again for 9000 hours of 100% speed after a very intense year of 8 hours sprints every day. Now this assumes that pewter speed is storable (when moving!) as I see no reason why it should not be, the Thug is physically moving at those speeds.When just tapping the steelminds could get 4hours 30 minutes of 100m/s or 46 seconds at 190 m/s, or 0.1 second at ~280m/s, so still not enough to reach sonic speeds for any useful amount of time.
2. Now they can also burn/flare when steeltapping but that will effectively just give them a discount as I would assume a-speed and f-speed would be additive, i.e. when flared thug/runner is moving at 27m/s max so to get to 99m/s he needs to tap only at 8x the speed, as feruchemy seems to be relative the base state of Feruchemist. This effectively makes it cheaper for them to run at such speeds, but it is not enough to let them move at/near sonic speeds, they would still get not even 0.02 second at Mach 1 speeds.

There is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13501), saying that burning metals while tapping speed increases the speed of burn, likening to what would happen inside bendalloy bubble. However I do not think this means that the metal gives greater benefit, consider this:

• Thug burns pewter when someone puts up bendalloy bubble around him, for him inside he continues to burn and is 2x/3x as strong due to pewter, however to those outside he is burning 11x times faster, so that when the bubble bursts his stores are 11x times more depleted and yet he was not 22x/33x stronger for the duration. Since Brandon likens tapping speed to the speedbubble in the WoB, I think metals will simply burn faster inside the steelrunner but still impart the same benefit, as to him they burn at the usual rate, i.e. steelrunner burning metals will go through his reserves faster, but will not get any greater benefit.

You could in principle try to get around the storage limitations by using unkeyed metalminds, but even if you have hundreds of thousands of people equipped with f-steel and f-aluminum, steelrunner would still not get more than 10 seconds at sonic speeds. Thug/runner with such support team (hundreds of thousands of people) could get maybe 5 minutes of 1 mach speed, and again this assumes the ideal scenario were each increment in tapping speed is not harder than the one before. Ultimately no one outside of compounders or supported by compounders can move at sonic speeds for any useful amount of time.

TL;DR: Solo steelrunner, or even thug/runner combo has nowhere near enough store to sustain even just 1 Mach speeds for more than 0.1 second at a time under the most favourable theory, and it would deplete their entire reserves. They most likely can sustain ~100m/s speeds for 10-15 minutes, but it would nearly deplete their entire stores, and those stores would have to be quite extreme to begin with. Effectively sonic speed attacks for non-compounder are impossible, and even 200 m/s attacks would deplete nearly their entire reserves for just one strike.
 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

For this to work Scnadrial needs either a MIstborn, or a Bendalloy/Cadmium/Duralumin misting with a medallion giving the other two.

I think you can see where this is going.

So you have you Mistborn/Medallion Misting that I'm just going to call a Mistborn for convieniance and get close enough to a Radiant to get a Bendalloy bubble aroundd them and burn Duralumin, and instantly disipate all of their stormlight without having to touch them, them the Mistborn drops to the ground and duralumin burns Cadmium, which prevents them from being attacked while their friends get hours to shoot at the Radiant without any consequences.

Now there are a few problems with this

1. Every metal used is really expencive, and Bendalloy doubly so as both it's component parts are rare.
2. The Mistborn is at risk of getting hit even on the ground
3. The stratagy is only effective for Solo Radiants.

But remember, the BCD-misting is trapped in the bendalloy bubble with the Radiant, who inside the bubble has the stormlight and so can kill the BCD-misting at his convenience. The second the duralumin-bendalloy bubble goes down the Radiant is most likely left without stormlight, but the BCD-misting who was inside with them is dead, if the Radiant has shardblade or any offensive surges.

I have a different proposal with the same abilities, start with Cadminum bubble to trap Radiant and BCD-misting in slowed time. Then BCD-misting uses Bendalloy to return to normal speed but leaves Radiant slowed, as B-bubbles are smaller than C-bubbles. Line up a shot, and drop the bubbles at the same time as you (and potentially people outside) take the shot. Repeat as needed.

Edited April 4, 2021 by therunner
spelling/formatting, sources

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Thing is, the four shot things is something that Wax assumes happened (AoL, chapter 5), he has not actually seen it, for all we know it could have sounded like four quick shots merging together, or four separate shots but so close people did not have time to react. Bleeder is not shown doing anything close to this on screen. The compression factor of bendalloy is roughly 11x fold per AoL (coppermind), so if Bleeder looks as if moving normally from inside the speedbubble, than she is moving 11x as fast in reality, i.e. she would be moving at 99 m/s at best quite far from sonic speeds.

You cannot shot accuratly from inside the bubble, bubble border would interfere with bulet's trajectory. It has to be F-Steel.

But right, if she would be between all four grups and shoot four shots one by one, effect would be the same. But still she had to do this (go to the middle, shoot four shots and go out) in 0,1s, becauseshe was unnoticed. Of course, we dont know the distance, because we dont know how large shelter was.

But still, she was able to shot, also able to run around room killing people, and later was able to shot guards so fast noone even noticed until was too late. And has Steelrunner powers just few days, but is possible to use stolen metalminds from hemalurgicly killed Metalborn.

Anyway, I love your math and is probably correct, but books material leaves me suspicious.