Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[therunner]

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

We haven't seen much aluminum used since it is very rare on Roshar only available from Horneater peaks or soulcasting which is stated as very difficult so we really haven't seen it used as a weapon.

The forger wouldn't be adding investiture but switching the conduit of the investiture by forging someone who is already an allomancer. One of the issues with forgery is that a persons identity eventually causes the seal to break down, but a True self can avoid that. That is potentially both good and bad.

From what I have seen connection and identity are both interconnected and inseparable.

If aluminum was this effective against shardplate someone would have noticed and it would be the choice for weaponry against shardbearers. Fused would definitely be using such weapons against shardbearers, pretty much nullifying the defensive advantage of plate. And unlike on Scadrial, aluminum is while difficult to obtain, still reasonably easy to procure with soulcasting (or trade in cognitive).

It would still be adding investiture, Forgery works by adding additional pieces on top of those already there, not by modifying what is present, if I understand it correctly. If the spiritweb is closer to what the goal of forging is it makes it easier for the stamp to stick and requires less investiture, but misting vs mistborn is pretty big difference. I think changing what misting they are would be much easier, since stamps work off plausibility of change as well and Mistborn are no longer being born making it very unlikely.

While related, Identity and Connection are clearly separable, as we have clear examples like Feruchemy (they are separate attributes, unkeyed metalminds require only storing of Identity) and Bondsmiths (they can change and manipulate only Connection, not Identity).

4 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That's fair, though even if it doesn't lock up, it's going to stop regenerating (this part's not speculation, Jasnah explicitly says it "lapped up her Stormlight to repair itself"), so while they're in less trouble than a bearer of deadplate, they'd still be at greatly heightened risk. (Definitely would still a force to be reckoned with, however, if it doesn't lock.)

I would also point out that the only time Jasnah remarked on the plate using Stormlight is when it was repairing itself. Even at the end of battle when Jasnah is pretty much completely out of stormlight (she needs to start breathing again and so the plate opens small vents for her) the plate is not described as locked up, or slower and weaker than usual.

This suggests that living plate requires either minuscule amount of stormlight to function, or (in light of Rlains `always there` comment) requires no stormlight to function and only requires stormlight to repair itself (although I theorize it might be able to use ambient lesser spren for quicker repairs of whole destroyed sections).

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

1. It looks cool,
2. it's an easy way for their subbordinates to recognise them
3. I think it would be increadibly comforting to see your armor when you need it rather than just knowing it's there but that's just me.

I would personally find it odd if the only benefit of summoning plate was cosmetic. Also I do not think perception has anything to do with Jasnahs comment on her being vulnerable with dismissed plate, we have so far seen perception mainly effect either internal effects (healing) or just shape/form, not external effects. In short, perception affects what you can do, not what other things do on their own. Also if plate was effected by perception to this extent, then opponents who does not see shardplate as that resistant could have easier time breaking it.

Personally I think that living plate (my greater speculations are in indented)

1. Requires no stormlight to maintain its ordinary function (defensive capabilities, increased strength, speed, reflexes, limited shapechanging, reactive attentuation of outside stimuli), or at least so little stormlight that even Radiant who no longer gets its benefits can still power it.
2. Requires stormlight to heal cracked section and entirely shattered section.
   1. (I think the completely shattered sections could be replaced by ambient lesser spren of correct type, but that would easier for some orders than for others. I.e. windspren are nearly omnipresent, but creationspren are much rarer so Windrunner would have easier time doing this then Lightweaver)
3. Dismissed plate imparts no defensive benefit, but can be summoned even without stormlight (per point 1.).
   1. (Since plate sometimes does thing without conscious command of user, it might also react to immediate danger on its own and summon itself. Personally though, I would doubt this.)

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

I would personally find it odd if the only benefit of summoning plate was cosmetic. Also I do not think perception has anything to do with Jasnahs comment on her being vulnerable with dismissed plate, we have so far seen perception mainly effect either internal effects (healing) or just shape/form, not external effects. In short, perception affects what you can do, not what other things do on their own. Also if plate was effected by perception to this extent, then opponents who does not see shardplate as that resistant could have easier time breaking it.

Honorblades dion't require ten heartbeats to summon, yet Szeth needed them,

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Honorblades dion't require ten heartbeats to summon, yet Szeth needed them,

Good point. However I would say the having different summon time is very small change compared to the armor either functioning or not when not visible, that seems like a much larger change.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Good point. However I would say the having different summon time is very small change compared to the armor either functioning or not when not visible, that seems like a much larger change.

Well look at it this way

Kaladin a soldier knows how important sight is in combat, so he tries to increase his line of sight and his helmet turns invisible, so he thinks "oh, it's always on, that makes sense, you can't get ambushed that way."

While on the otherhand Jasnah who is not a solider thinks about it like deadplate either it's on or off so when she dismisses it it stops functioning.

[therunner]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well look at it this way

Kaladin a soldier knows how important sight is in combat, so he tries to increase his line of sight and his helmet turns invisible, so he thinks "oh, it's always on, that makes sense, you can't get ambushed that way."

While on the otherhand Jasnah who is not a solider thinks about it like deadplate either it's on or off so when she dismisses it it stops functioning.

I do see the benefit, but I just think it is too much of an advantage just due to perception issues. We already see plate react and try to anticipate Radiants needs (closing the visor when stabbed, turning faceplate partially translucent to improve field of view, opening vents to allow breathing) so I think this being controlled by perception is not strictly necessary.

And since the visor turns translucent when closed, but is still clearly there, I think being completely invisible yet still working as armor is not in scope of shardplate abilities.

I see the reasoning and the arguments, but I guess for me it is a bridge too far.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I would also point out that the only time Jasnah remarked on the plate using Stormlight is when it was repairing itself. Even at the end of battle when Jasnah is pretty much completely out of stormlight (she needs to start breathing again and so the plate opens small vents for her) the plate is not described as locked up, or slower and weaker than usual.

This suggests that living plate requires either minuscule amount of stormlight to function, or (in light of Rlains `always there` comment) requires no stormlight to function and only requires stormlight to repair itself (although I theorize it might be able to use ambient lesser spren for quicker repairs of whole destroyed sections)

That's a good point. Seems like it's not going to be locking up, then.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Honorblades dion't require ten heartbeats to summon, yet Szeth needed them,

Previously I thought this was just perception, but we see Moash know his Blade shouldn't really need ten seconds, and attempt to summon it faster, but it still takes ten seconds anyway. So I'm wondering if something might have changed with them after all. 

[Frustration]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Previously I thought this was just perception, but we see Moash know his Blade shouldn't really need ten seconds, and attempt to summon it faster, but it still takes ten seconds anyway. So I'm wondering if something might have changed with them after all. 

Could you get me that quote I don't remember that

[therunner]

29 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Could you get me that quote I don't remember that

RoW, Interlude 4, pg. 549

Quote

He gestured, and the distant Shardblade vanished to mist. Yet it took him ten heartbeats to summon it again.

It is in process of him trying to learn to throw the sword as Adolin did with Maya, and he remarks on the fact that Adolin did summon shardblade faster then 10 heartbeats.

He is clearly aware that it should be possible to do it faster and is trying, but it is not working.

Edited April 2, 2021 by therunner

[Frustration]

Just now, therunner said:

RoW, Interlude 4, pg. 549

It is in process of him trying to learn to throw the sword as Adolin did with Maya, and he remarks on the fact that Adolin did summon shardblade faster then 10 heartbeats.

intresting,

given this WoB it seems like either only the Heralds would get the instant summon, or it's something that broke with the Oathpact

Spoiler

treegrass

How long does it take to summon an Honorblade? Is it ten heartbeats or instant?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Honorblades, as far as anyone knows is ten sec- ten heartbeats. If you were to ask Szeth how long it would take, he would say ten heartbeats.

treegrass

But they're not?

Brandon Sanderson

I am not saying that. I am saying if you ask Szeth, if you ask the current bearer of Jezrien's Blade, they would all say it takes ten heartbeats.

Questioner 2

What about for the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO there.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[therunner]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

intresting,

given this WoB it seems like either only the Heralds would get the instant summon, or it's something that broke with the Oathpact

  Reveal hidden contents

treegrass

How long does it take to summon an Honorblade? Is it ten heartbeats or instant?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Honorblades, as far as anyone knows is ten sec- ten heartbeats. If you were to ask Szeth how long it would take, he would say ten heartbeats.

treegrass

But they're not?

Brandon Sanderson

I am not saying that. I am saying if you ask Szeth, if you ask the current bearer of Jezrien's Blade, they would all say it takes ten heartbeats.

Questioner 2

What about for the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO there.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

Interesting WoB. Maybe it has to do with Honor being splintered? Effectively being the same as deadeye spren are, but on much larger scale? So now honorblades, being in effect splinters of Honor with direct link to him are now limited as deadblades are.

So in principle anyone even Heralds would now take 10 heartbeats to summon the blades, but when Honor was still alive it would be immediate for anyone.

Edited April 2, 2021 by therunner
last sentence

[Bejarden]

They can open Oathgates I believe so there is an interesting dynamic.

[therunner]

1 minute ago, Bejardin1250 said:

They can open Oathgates I believe so there is an interesting dynamic.

Hmm, good point, so not exactly like deadblades. Maybe it has to do with investiture in the sword? Living blades are softly glowing, suggesting they are naturally more suffused with investiture than deadblades, and since honorblades grant surgebinding maybe this extra oomph is enough to register as "living" for the purpose of Oathgates.

This discrepancy is definitely interesting.

[Frustration]

Just now, therunner said:

Hmm, good point, so not exactly like deadblades. Maybe it has to do with investiture in the sword? Living blades are softly glowing, suggesting they are naturally more suffused with investiture than deadblades, and since honorblades grant surgebinding maybe this extra oomph is enough to register as "living" for the purpose of Oathgates.

This discrepancy is definitely interesting.

Honorblades are noted as having shallower bonds, so maybe the instant summoning worked for the Heralds because they had a stronger bond.

[BenduLuke]

19 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Shardguns are possible
2. We know that blades can physically touch aluminum, there is nothing to indicate that plate cannot
3. adding the ability to burn metals is an increase in investiture
4. An invested individual would resist being soulstamped, so your agent would be just as difficult as a normal person even when storing Identity.
5. it takes five days to bond a blade
6. no indication that identities merge for Radiants+spren
7. no indication that the spren would retain identity, especially after both a broken bond and death.
8. Again all speculation so it doesn't help you

1. a thrown hammer is not a reliable way to break plate
2. Why heavy armor? that doesn't help you at all.

I don't think it would lock up, otherwise a Radiant past fourth oath would have to always have stormlight or they would be stuck, the armor is always there after all.

1. If aluminum was so good Fused would use it instead of Raysium as their weapon of choice.
2. Identity and Connection are different things

  Hide contents

Dirigible (paraphrased)

If you tapped blank Identity in an area, would you develop the area's accent?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's part of what you need. You need to both blank your Identity and tap Connection to get the accent.

Footnote: Sanderson interpreted this question as blanking identity.
Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Glad you support the idea of shardguns as potentially possible.

Shardplate is made up of a different level of spren than shardblades more on the level of fabrial spren, and Fabrial spren with try to get as far as possible from aluminum according to Dawn shard.

An aluminum compounder can already burn metal and the forger might switch the metal, or Harmony gave him Lerasium and the Forger rewrote him to have the scholarship to most effectivly burn it.

A trueself according to Brandon who fully stores their Identity is vulnerable to Forgers for good or Ill so if they were working with any Forger they would need to trust them implicitly. It is Identity that fowls with stamps over time.

I thought Dalinar bonded the blade in 3 days in WoR?

The indications I am going off are Syl and Kal's or Shallon and Patterns discussions and how they seem to be completing each other's Identities. On that same note as Syl and Kal's bond deepens she seems to recover her identity even the some of part she shared with her last Radiant. Not only do Syl and Kal seem to share part of their Identity but Dalinar and Stormfather seem to be progressing that way as well, especially the Spren. Even Adolin's blade seems to have retained some of that Shared Identity.

It seems to me that you have been doing allot of speculation on Shardplate not entirely supported by others so what is the difference? By the way I think Shardplate requires stormlight to repair but may be like shardblades in that summoning it doesn't require stormlight. If you run out of stormlight then the sections can be destroyed until you get more stormlight. Or maybe it is different and to summon it initially requires stormlight but it will remain until dismissed or damaged when you run out of stormlight.

Steel armor because it serves 3 purposes. 1. It acts as a metalmind with allot of storage space. 2. It resists damage from phyisical and invested sources. 3. it provides extra proteciton enabling much faster speeds before injury.

Within a certain range throwing a heavy hammer like a Thug/Steelrunner could manage would make it a heavy very fast moving projectile and if it hit could do serious damage. The range might even be over long bow or even ballista range.

Aluminum is incredibly rare especially on Roshar and only becoming a viable weapon on Scadrial, and Raysium has the advantage of stealing the Radiants stormlight effectively stopping all their radiant abilities where aluminum only affects the area until removed unless used as a Hemulugic spike, but that it also currently unknown on Roshar. The other problem is that aluminum is not really understood. Now Brandon has said it is meant to be the anti investiture metal and by the relative modern (our time) time of Scadrial it will be very common there like it is to us. We will see all kinds of things made out of aluminum then.

Identity and connection are different but they are also interconnected and nearly inseparable in almost all cases.

I am surprised that you have spent so much time speculating on Shardplate and justifying those speculations with It is your opinion since you spent so much energy criticizing me for doing the same thing. I thought according to you that was out of bounds for this thread?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Glad you support the idea of shardguns as potentially possible.

SoTD 2

Spoiler

We see one

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardplate is made up of a different level of spren than shardblades more on the level of fabrial spren, and Fabrial spren with try to get as far as possible from aluminum according to Dawn shard.

Those spren are also not in physical form, just as Syl can only carry a leaf in spren form but as a shardshovel coul move large amounts of matter

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

An aluminum compounder can already burn metal and the forger might switch the metal, or Harmony gave him Lerasium and the Forger rewrote him to have the scholarship to most effectivly burn it.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't require more investiture

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

A trueself according to Brandon who fully stores their Identity is vulnerable to Forgers for good or Ill so if they were working with any Forger they would need to trust them implicitly. It is Identity that fowls with stamps over time.

Investiture still resists investiture and if they are a twinborn than they are more invested than a ferring.

though A-aluminum would probably be the easiest metal to add.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I thought Dalinar bonded the blade in 3 days in WoR?

 One week, and the Rosharan week is five days.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The indications I am going off are Syl and Kal's or Shallon and Patterns discussions and how they seem to be completing each other's Identities. On that same note as Syl and Kal's bond deepens she seems to recover her identity even the some of part she shared with her last Radiant. Not only do Syl and Kal seem to share part of their Identity but Dalinar and Stormfather seem to be progressing that way as well, especially the Spren. Even Adolin's blade seems to have retained some of that Shared Identity.

It's closer to the Kandra having their spikes in, that allows them to Connect to their Cognitive acspects in the PR.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

It seems to me that you have been doing allot of speculation on Shardplate not entirely supported by others so what is the difference? By the way I think Shardplate requires stormlight to repair but may be like shardblades in that summoning it doesn't require stormlight. If you run out of stormlight then the sections can be destroyed until you get more stormlight. Or maybe it is different and to summon it initially requires stormlight but it will remain until dismissed or damaged when you run out of stormlight.

Supported by others is irrelevant, it's evidence.

and if you would read what was said

6 hours ago, therunner said:

I see the reasoning and the arguments, but I guess for me it is a bridge too far.

I don't think you can tap aluminum but I haven't made a big deal out of it because there is some indication that you could.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Steel armor because it serves 3 purposes. 1. It acts as a metalmind with allot of storage space. 2. It resists damage from phyisical and invested sources. 3. it provides extra proteciton enabling much faster speeds before injury.

A single bracer has plenty of storage, and any armor you add makes it harder to run.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Within a certain range throwing a heavy hammer like a Thug/Steelrunner could manage would make it a heavy very fast moving projectile and if it hit could do serious damage. The range might even be over long bow or even ballista range.

Pewter only get's you at most 3 times the strength of an ordinary person, and that's only when flared. that's not going to let you throw a hammer 300 yards.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is incredibly rare especially on Roshar and only becoming a viable weapon on Scadrial, and Raysium has the advantage of stealing the Radiants stormlight effectively stopping all their radiant abilities where aluminum only affects the area until removed unless used as a Hemulugic spike, but that it also currently unknown on Roshar. The other problem is that aluminum is not really understood. Now Brandon has said it is meant to be the anti investiture metal and by the relative modern (our time) time of Scadrial it will be very common there like it is to us. We will see all kinds of things made out of aluminum then.

Fused both have it and know what it is.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity and connection are different but they are also interconnected and nearly inseparable in almost all cases.

Connection is how things relate, Identity is what it is how is that inseperable.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I am surprised that you have spent so much time speculating on Shardplate and justifying those speculations with It is your opinion since you spent so much energy criticizing me for doing the same thing. I thought according to you that was out of bounds for this thread?

I used evidence, that is the difference, you say

"I think Identity and Connection are all but inseparable"

And when asked to back it you just say, "That's how I read it"

 

When I say

"Shardplate is always on"

I back it up with

"In text it says that Shardplate is always there, and Brandon felt the need to Italicize the words "always there" so obviously it's important."

 

See the difference?

Edited April 2, 2021 by Frustration

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Glad you support the idea of shardguns as potentially possible.

Sixth of Dusk Sequel Spoilers

Spoiler

We see a Radiant draw a Shardgun, so this is the closest thing to canon we have for that, however, in it we see the radinat have to insert seperate ammunition, so the spren cannot form the bullets for it. Spren cannot split themselves into two objects, it's painful for them.

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardplate is made up of a different level of spren than shardblades more on the level of fabrial spren, and Fabrial spren with try to get as far as possible from aluminum according to Dawn shard.

Spren in fabrials aren't physical, the shardplate spren will be, this would change how they interact with shard plate

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

An aluminum compounder can already burn metal and the forger might switch the metal, or Harmony gave him Lerasium and the Forger rewrote him to have the scholarship to most effectivly burn it.

A WoB confirms that you can't add powers to a person, so you cannot use forgery to cheat this system. You are going to have to accept that.

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I thought Dalinar bonded the blade in 3 days in WoR?

Believe it was a week

 

32 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Supported by others is irrelevant, it's evidence.

and if you would read what was said

Eh, I get your point, but we have arguments for both sides, and at this point, we don't know enough about the mechanics of living plate, so maybe it's best we move on to other topics.

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity and connection are different but they are also interconnected and nearly inseparable in almost all cases.

Please reference these cases for our beneift.

 

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

I am surprised that you have spent so much time speculating on Shardplate and justifying those speculations with It is your opinion since you spent so much energy criticizing me for doing the same thing. I thought according to you that was out of bounds for this thread?

 

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I used evidence, that is the difference, you say

"I think Identity and Connection are all but inseparable"

And when asked to back it you just say, "That's how I read it"

 

When I say

"Shardplate is always on"

I back it up with

"In text it says that SHardplate is always there, and Brandon felt the need to Italicize the words "always there" so obviously it's important."

 

See the difference?

And this is also a good point, A lot of your speculations have some level of leaps of logic. While I will still hold to my previous point that we should move to other topics as even dead blades and plate work very differently to each other, we don't really know how living plate is going to work yet, and the fact only Jasnah, an elsecaller, dismisses it to shadesmar, we're not sure how much is unique to certain radiant orders.

However, try and list down the evidence to your points rather than simply saying these are connected. I know it can be annoying, but considering your position, it is best to put in that little extra effort, and you may end up changing your mind as new evidence is revealed and you alter your conclusions.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Shardplate is made up of a different level of spren than shardblades more on the level of fabrial spren, and Fabrial spren with try to get as far as possible from aluminum according to Dawn shard.

So far it is specifically spren in conjoiners, possibly due to them being split.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

An aluminum compounder can already burn metal and the forger might switch the metal, or Harmony gave him Lerasium and the Forger rewrote him to have the scholarship to most effectivly burn it.

A trueself according to Brandon who fully stores their Identity is vulnerable to Forgers for good or Ill so if they were working with any Forger they would need to trust them implicitly. It is Identity that fowls with stamps over time.

If Harmony can just give out lerasium, why not have Cultivation give Radiants boon similar to Taravangian, but less extreme? Or maybe just enhanced reflexes? Direct shardic intervention is not very plausible, since they really do not like doing it (especially Harmony who has trouble acting as it is).

Forgery is also based on plausibility of history, so changing someone metal? Sure. Changing them into Mistborn? Not so much at this point in time. Also to Forge soul you need Essence Marks, and those need to be reapplied every 24 hours.

Also I though we are comparing Scadrial vs Roshar, not Scadrial and other planets vs Roshar.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The indications I am going off are Syl and Kal's or Shallon and Patterns discussions and how they seem to be completing each other's Identities. On that same note as Syl and Kal's bond deepens she seems to recover her identity even the some of part she shared with her last Radiant. Not only do Syl and Kal seem to share part of their Identity but Dalinar and Stormfather seem to be progressing that way as well, especially the Spren. Even Adolin's blade seems to have retained some of that Shared Identity.

Syl is recovering her memories, not Identity. When her last Radiant died she went into something akin to coma? So she lost her memories due to trauma and now seems to be recovering them. She also lost some memories when transiting realms, as spren cannot maintain cognitive aspect in physical without bond for longer periods of time. The fact that spren have memories of their previous holders does not suggest shared Identity, I remember a lot of people but I do not share Identities with them.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Steel armor because it serves 3 purposes. 1. It acts as a metalmind with allot of storage space. 2. It resists damage from phyisical and invested sources. 3. it provides extra proteciton enabling much faster speeds before injury.

Without compounding they will not be able to completely fill even a single bracer, so larger storage space is wasted. Due to this, it will also not be very effective at resisting damage from shardblades, as it will not be invested enough. The protection from speeds should work.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Within a certain range throwing a heavy hammer like a Thug/Steelrunner could manage would make it a heavy very fast moving projectile and if it hit could do serious damage. The range might even be over long bow or even ballista range.

Well, they can impart some speed using steelrunning, but that would be mostly horizontal speed, so not helping them with throwing into heights. The hammer would also be heavily limited by air drag, even a modest warhammer thrown at 200m/s would be acted upon by air drag, slowing it down with acceleration of 100 m/s^2, with the force of air drag growing with the square of velocity, F ~ v^2. This would most likely limit the range to something around 500 meters, so roughly the ballista range at most. The question is if they can hit the target, as precision throwing warhammers is not such an easy feat I would say.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is incredibly rare especially on Roshar and only becoming a viable weapon on Scadrial, and Raysium has the advantage of stealing the Radiants stormlight effectively stopping all their radiant abilities where aluminum only affects the area until removed unless used as a Hemulugic spike, but that it also currently unknown on Roshar. The other problem is that aluminum is not really understood. Now Brandon has said it is meant to be the anti investiture metal and by the relative modern (our time) time of Scadrial it will be very common there like it is to us. We will see all kinds of things made out of aluminum then.

Aluminum is still much more common on Roshar than on Scadrial, being obtainable through soulcasting and trade with Horneaters. It will now become even more abundant with the return of Elsecallers and Lightweavers who are not as limited as soulcasters. Heavenly Ones use aluminum coating on their lances to fight Windrunners in RoW, so they are clearly aware of any martial applications.

I am not aware of any WoB where he would say that aluminum acts as anti-investiture, at best he says it has weird effects in all magic systems. So far aluminum is always investiture inert, with the exception of Metallic arts and spren in conjoined fabrials. But in the second case, in world characters speculate that the spren is simply trying to maintain connection to its second half, which is being interfered with by the aluminum sheet.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity and connection are different but they are also interconnected and nearly inseparable in almost all cases.

They are separable in:

1. Feruchemy treats them separately.
2. Bondsmiths manipulate only Connection, not Identity.
3. Cosmere healing works off Identity.

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

SoTD 2

  Reveal hidden contents

We see one

A single bracer has plenty of storage, and any armor you add makes it harder to run.

Pewter only get's you at most 3 times the strength of an ordinary person, and that's only when flared. that's not going to let you throw a hammer 300 yards.

Connection is how things relate, Identity is what it is how is that inseperable.

"I think Identity and Connection are all but inseparable"

And when asked to back it you just say, "That's how I read it"

 

It is not just about the storage, but also about the protection. A few extra pounds for a thug is not incapacitating so long as it servers a purpose.

It is not just the Pewter strength but the Mach speed steelrunner spin that enables the throw. I though I was clear when I described it as a hammer or shot put throw?

People and things connect to Identity, and part of what makes up Identity are a person or things connections. Only aluminum (trueself), and its derivative duralumin (connector) can fully separate the two so far as I know. Even when Taldain tried to rip away the stormfather from Dalinar he seemed to be ripping part of their identities from them.

33 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Sixth of Dusk Sequel Spoilers

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We see a Radiant draw a Shardgun, so this is the closest thing to canon we have for that, however, in it we see the radinat have to insert seperate ammunition, so the spren cannot form the bullets for it. Spren cannot split themselves into two objects, it's painful for them.

A WoB confirms that you can't add powers to a person, so you cannot use forgery to cheat this system. You are going to have to accept that.

Believe it was a week

Eh, I get your point, but we have arguments for both sides, and at this point, we don't know enough about the mechanics of living plate, so maybe it's best we move on to other topics.

And this is also a good point, A lot of your speculations have some level of leaps of logic. While I will still hold to my previous point that we should move to other topics as even dead blades and plate work very differently to each other, we don't really know how living plate is going to work yet, and the fact only Jasnah, an elsecaller, dismisses it to shadesmar, we're not sure how much is unique to certain radiant orders.

However, try and list down the evidence to your points rather than simply saying these are connected. I know it can be annoying, but considering your position, it is best to put in that little extra effort, and you may end up changing your mind as new evidence is revealed and you alter your conclusions.

Sorry I wasn't clear the spren in the bullets were not the same spren, think more along the line of windspren for the bullets of a windrunner. Though in my scenerio it could also have potentially been one of the other spren he bonded. I know very far fetched.

The Coppermind also implies you may be able to Forge someone into an allomancer, which would be easier on a Scadrian since it has been said they all have investiture from Harmony but in almost all of them it is inactive.

I suspect that when Hoid burned Lerasium he got a different benefit than has been usual since he may have known how to burn it most effectively.

the information on whether living plate is dismiss-able is contradictory. Even the degree of durability of plate is contradictory.

I certainly expect to change my perspective as more examples are presented especially since I project at near the limits of what I think might be possible based on what has already been shown or written in my speculaton. Admittedly beyond what most people seem comfortable with. As such I try and be open minded when others push the envelope even when I don't think it likely.

@therunner Pewter agility will help with aim. Nealy strait up might require more like a spinning Thor throw. Burning enough pewter to fill the armor might make them a pewter savant, but if they were careful they might avoid pewter drag since the focus would be on storing unused speed when they burn pewter. Harmony seems to take a bit more of an active roll as shown with Wax. The 24 hours is because the underlying identity eventually erodes the stamp, but a Trueself fully stored wouldn't have that consideration so anything becomes plausible even mistborn since all Scadrians have that unawakened potential. Not just conjoiners it affects all Fabrials and Soulcasteres as well as external surges. Aluminum appears fairly common on Sel but not Roshar Lopin Said it was very rare and only thought it could be soulcast and then rarely. In the aluminum coppermind it says it is anti-metal arts and by extention anti investiture. 2 of its invested metal art abilities are to neutralize investiture. an aluminum bullet with intent is a hemalugic spike and will wipe all investiture from its target if it hits.

Edited April 2, 2021 by BenduLuke

[NameIess]

@Frustration, Kaladin's Plate took the form of windspren when he was giving it to people, so it's not always in the form of armor. my interpretation is that the Plate is always there, ready to be summoned (Unless you give it to someone else), but it doesn't stay solid all the time. Lirin noted that he couldn't feel it, even though he saw it, and I took that as an indication that the Plate can be incorporeal but not invisible. It definitely isn't always in Plate form, because of the windspren, but I could see it protecting you even when it is invisible but still in plate form.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It is not just the Pewter strength but the Mach speed steelrunner spin that enables the throw. I though I was clear when I described it as a hammer or shot put throw?

Breaking the sound barrier would be beyond most steelrunners, even compounders won't be doing that regularly

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

People and things connect to Identity, and part of what makes up Identity are a person or things connections. Only aluminum (trueself), and its derivative duralumin (connector) can fully separate the two so far as I know. Even when Taldain tried to rip away the stormfather from Dalinar he seemed to be ripping part of their identities from them.

Where did you get the ripping part of their Identities?

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The Coppermind also implies you may be able to Forge someone into an allomancer, which would be easier on a Scadrian since it has been said they all have investiture from Harmony but in almost all of them it is inactive.

That would require Sel.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that when Hoid burned Lerasium he got a different benefit than has been usual since he may have known how to burn it most effectively.

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself Allomantic powers?

Brandon Sanderson

His goal was to become an Allomancer.

Questioner

And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It could not give powers other than Allomancy.

Questioner

Because it’s lerasium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Oversleep

So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right?

Brandon Sanderson

You have seen him use Allomancy…

Oversleep

Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>.

Brandon Sanderson

You have actually seen him use Allomancy.

Footnote: Brandon has since confirmed that the lerasium was burned
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunner Pewter agility will help with aim. Nealy strait up might require more like a spinning Thor throw. Burning enough pewter to fill the armor might make them a pewter savant, but if they were careful they might avoid pewter drag since the focus would be on storing unused speed when they burn pewter. Harmony seems to take a bit more of an active roll as shown with Wax. The 24 hours is because the underlying identity eventually erodes the stamp, but a Trueself fully stored wouldn't have that consideration so anything becomes plausible even mistborn since all Scadrians have that unawakened potential. Not just conjoiners it affects all Fabrials and Soulcasteres as well as external surges. Aluminum appears fairly common on Sel but not Roshar Lopin Said it was very rare and only thought it could be soulcast and then rarely. In the aluminum coppermind it says it is anti-metal arts and by extention anti investiture. 2 of its invested metal art abilities are to neutralize investiture. an aluminum bullet with intent is a hemalugic spike and will wipe all investiture from its target if it hits.

It is not Anti-investiture, it's inert, the Coppermind is the Wikipedia of Brandon, it's useful, but only as good as it's sources, never has aluminum been destroyed when in contact with Investiture, as we know Anti-investiture is.

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

@Frustration, Kaladin's Plate took the form of windspren when he was giving it to people, so it's not always in the form of armor. my interpretation is that the Plate is always there, ready to be summoned (Unless you give it to someone else), but it doesn't stay solid all the time. Lirin noted that he couldn't feel it, even though he saw it, and I took that as an indication that the Plate can be incorporeal but not invisible. It definitely isn't always in Plate form, because of the windspren, but I could see it protecting you even when it is invisible but still in plate form.

I'm not entirly understanding what you mean.

[VeryNiceName]

On Connection and Identity, I feel like Identity has to involve Connection, after what we learned in RoW. If people have Connections to time and space, and knowing the same thing counts as a Connection, and language does, and friendships do, and what other people think about you do, I feel like ownership of a metalmind or an object's state of who owns it and what people think about it also do.

[The Technovore]

5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The Coppermind also implies you may be able to Forge someone into an allomancer, which would be easier on a Scadrian since it has been said they all have investiture from Harmony but in almost all of them it is inactive.

Okay, so you know how Wikipedia isn't a valid citation in any academic or school paper? That's because it's edited by the (somewhat knowledgable) public and therefore is prone to error and corruption. Same deal applies here. I see conversations at least twice a week about how a detail or sentence in the Coppermind is wrong, and needs changing or fixing. 

Point is, the Coppermind does NOT provide a fully accurate or valid basis of knowledge for any topic. Any citations to the Coppermind will be questionable, and if all your knowledge is based on the Coppermind, you're in for a world of hurt when debating cosmere mechanics (much like what you've been getting in this thread, coincidentally). It's really best to be able to point at things in the books directly or at WoBs. WoBs are generally as canon until a book contradicts one or a later WoB contradicts an earlier one. Hope that's helpful.

 

Also, Bendu, I think the confusion is in the distinction between a Spiritweb, and Identity.

A Spiritweb is the entirety of someone's "code" in the Spiritual Realm. Investiture, Connection, Identity, (and Fortune?) are all pieces of that spiritweb. Identity is what tells apart Sazed from Kelsier. Connection and Fortune involve Kelsier's Connection to Ruin and Preservation, and his destiny as inciting the Skaa rebellion, and Sazed's Connection to Vin, Kelsier, and being the Hero of Ages (being Hero of Ages probably also involves a heavy dose of Fortune and Identity). Investiture is the innate power, it's what makes Kelsier a Mistborn and Sazed a Feruchemist. I think the basis of all these problems, Bendu, is that you've conflated Identity with Spiritweb. 

If you went back to all of your previous statements about Identity, and replaced the word with "Spiritweb", and suddenly your conjectures would be making a LOT more sense. You'd be right in that Connection and Identity are crucial pieces of a Spiritweb. But you'd be wrong that they are largely the same thing, as they describe two different aspects of the Spiritweb.

Even in your Quicksilver scenario--Quicksilver's antics would be making a lot more sense if you described it as him manipulating his entire Spiritweb (which is unlikely to be able to accomplish with just Aluminum compounding, you'd need to be a Full Feruchemist or Fullborn). 

Hope that helps as well.

 

Also aluminum is most definitely NOT Anti-Investiture, it doesn't interact with Investiture at all except to make it stop working, If it was Anti-Investiture it would immediately explode or combust whenever a Metalborn tried to use it.

Edited April 3, 2021 by The Technovore

[VeryNiceName]

Questioner

Could you rewrite Elantris to make Allomancers?

Brandon Sanderson

Could you rewrite Elantris to make Allomancers. If you really knew what you were doing, could you create a program?

Questioner

Right.

Brandon Sanderson

It would be way easier with Forging and even that would be really hard. I could see you imitating the powers the right way, that you could end up with something that was functionally the same. It just wouldn't be an Allomancer.

 

 

I assume the difficulty is that you would need to supply the extra Investiture

[therunner]

I am putting the same kinds of information together, so I can respond in one place.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It is not just about the storage, but also about the protection. A few extra pounds for a thug is not incapacitating so long as it servers a purpose.

It is not just the Pewter strength but the Mach speed steelrunner spin that enables the throw. I though I was clear when I described it as a hammer or shot put throw?

@therunner Pewter agility will help with aim. Nealy strait up might require more like a spinning Thor throw. Burning enough pewter to fill the armor might make them a pewter savant, but if they were careful they might avoid pewter drag since the focus would be on storing unused speed when they burn pewter.

Full suit of steel armor weight at 15-25 kg (33-55 lbs), so a lot more then `few extra pounds`. For a thug most likely not slowing them down that much, but it will slow them down some.

Neither hammer nor shot put throws are known for their accuracy, so I am not sure how accurate could such throws be. And yes I am aware that pewter also seems to improve dexterity and as a result maybe also accuracy somewhat, but that is at normal human speeds, not at 10-20x times the normal human speeds. I suspect here pewter dexterity would not help them that much.

To store speed they need to move, just burning pewter and storing will do nothing (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352/#e10297). Second, Bands of Mourning, the most filled metalmind ever seen created definitely by compounder (most likely fullborn) were the size of oversized spearhead, and they were still not as invested as shardblades, so at best maybe comparable to shardplates. Your postulated non-compounder could not even scratch that, so their armour would be most likely barely invested when it comes for defensive purposes. Even full metalmind (which we have never seen as far as I know) would most likely only resist shardblade, and non-compounder does not have access to enough investiture to fill the entire plate, most likely even 50 of non-compounders could not store enough.

You also did not address the fact that the second armor leaves the thug/runner hand, it will get slowed down very fast, as it would experience Newton drag ~v^2. Hammer with head of area 0.02m^2 (so 20 by 10 centimeters) thrown at 200m/s would take 2 seconds to fly 200 meters, anything beyond 400 meters would have more than 10 seconds to react, and this neglects gravity, which would complicate aiming much more. However, anyone close than those 200 meters, especially if they were on a ground would have a bad day indeed.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

the information on whether living plate is dismiss-able is contradictory. Even the degree of durability of plate is contradictory.

I would not call it contradictory. Incomplete? Yes. For degree of durability we actually have some hard limits, 2-3 bullets to shatter section for example. Heat resistance was not yet shown in books, so there we do not have much to go on, outside of the weight of plate and the fact that Nightblood (heavily invested metal) would have rather high melting point. Not fully accurate information is not the same as contradictory information.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunnerHarmony seems to take a bit more of an active roll as shown with Wax.

He occasionally talks to Wax/tries to get him to do stuff, far cry from making lerasium beads for him. Most of his actions are indirect, only telling his agents what to do, not enabling them (he did not even share how to make radios which would much smaller impact than making lerasium). And most of his active involvement was against incursion from seemingly another Shard, Trell.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The Coppermind also implies you may be able to Forge someone into an allomancer, which would be easier on a Scadrian since it has been said they all have investiture from Harmony but in almost all of them it is inactive.

The 24 hours is because the underlying identity eventually erodes the stamp, but a Trueself fully stored wouldn't have that consideration so anything becomes plausible even mistborn since all Scadrians have that unawakened potential.

The reason Scadrian have Harmonies investiture in them is because Ruin and Preservation created the entire planet and everything on it wholesale. It does not mean that your average Scadrian is more invested than average person from elsewhere in the Cosmere.

No, all Scadrians do not have unawakened potential to be Mistborn, some have potential to be Mistings and then Mists can snap them to make it so. What is plausible is not just dependant on Identity, but on spiritweb as whole i.e. also Connections and such. If your parents did not have correct spiritDNA to allow their offspring to be Mistborn (however heredity of spiritual aspects works) than it is outright impossible (unless random spiritDNA mutations are a thing) for child to be born Mistborn, i.e. it is incredibly unlikely outcome (if we allow for random spiritual mutation). As a result the stamp would quickly wear off even if you were stamped when storing the native Identity.

And again, we are supposed to compare Roshar vs Scadrial, not Scadrial and other planets vs Roshar.

10 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not just conjoiners it affects all Fabrials and Soulcasteres as well as external surges. Aluminum appears fairly common on Sel but not Roshar Lopin Said it was very rare and only thought it could be soulcast and then rarely. In the aluminum coppermind it says it is anti-metal arts and by extention anti investiture. 2 of its invested metal art abilities are to neutralize investiture. an aluminum bullet with intent is a hemalugic spike and will wipe all investiture from its target if it hits.

No, what was shown is that aluminum repels captured spren in conjoined fabrials. Huio even speculates that it is because of aluminum interfering with connection of the two halves of singular spren in conjoiner. If Huio is correct than aluminum would have no effect on other fabrials and free spren.

Aluminum is sufficiently common that Fused are equipped with aluminum covered lances. And again, because it can be soulcast it is as common as surgebinders with Transformation want it to be.

On coppermind page of Aluminum, there is literally no mention of the words anti, anti-metal or anti-investiture. All the coppermind says is that it is

1. Investiture-inert, i.e. not pushable/pullable, unaffected by surges, unforgable, unawakanable, ignores invested cutting property.
2. Interferes with active uses of investiture, i.e. disrupts time bubbles, shields from rioting/soothing, blocks metallines, seems to interfere with some connections (conjoiner fabrial spren)...this is most likely extension of the investiture-inert property
3. It can be used in Metallic arts, for a) wiping interal investiture reserves (and metals as well) b ) storing Identity c) removes all powers (but this requires proper bind point, or heart)

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by therunner
spelling

[+Bzhydack]

13 hours ago, therunner said:

Aluminum is still much more common on Roshar than on Scadrial, being obtainable through soulcasting and trade with Horneaters. It will now become even more abundant with the return of Elsecallers and Lightweavers who are not as limited as soulcasters. Heavenly Ones use aluminum coating on their lances to fight Windrunners in RoW, so they are clearly aware of any martial applications.

Nope.

All we've seen made from Aluminium on Roshar is neckless, coated with IT lances (and not even all Heavenly Ones are equiped with IT), and some Plates and foil. Is literaly unknown to most people.

And on Scadrial we've seen literaly whole train wagon full of Aluminium and this wasnt one-time event. We've seen many guns made from Aluminium. Everybody knows about IT, recognize IT, knows its properties. Right, is expensive, but is much more common than on Roshar.