Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

More evidence against ignition being the fuel for allomancy

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Frustration

[Aspiring Writer]

@BenduLuke Hello there. I haven't really been active in this conversation of late, though I have tried keeping my eye on it for various reasons, and at this point, my patience is ending. I appreciate that you are very passionate about this discussion, and you have brought up very interesting conversations, but let me be clear... keep being snarky and I will report you and have a mod take a look at this whole situation. Off late, you have responded with passive insults about everyone else being biased and disregarding their points because of this perceived bias, which is getting annoying for even someone just reading it, I can't imagine how the people you're responding to must feel. I don't want you to stop participating or discussing your points, as I said, you have sparked interesting discussions, but you have frustrated everyone on this thread to their wit's end, and being passive-aggressive is not helping anyone.

And another thing, this is a thread comparing what we know of both magic systems currently with some speculation off f those things. So using the logic along the lines of, 'we don't know that isn't how it works' does not help your point, as there are a lot of things we don't know or understand about cosmere magics, so unless we definitively know that is or isn't how it works, leave those arguments out of here. Make your own thread for those kinds of speculations. This is a comparison discussion thread, not a theory thread.

Nice talk.

[therunner]

Hello, I would add one information that I kind of lost sight off, and I am unsure if others did not as well.

Shardplate is described as neither bending nor denting, in fact hits either shatter the section, or cause cracks to run through the section. Whether this effect also extends to thermal damage is not yet known, but I would assume that it does. When the section breaks it also explodes into pieces of metal. These two effects combined remind me of tempered glass, which is glass which has internal tension which strengthens it. In addition, in at least some (I did not go through all) situations where the section breaks, the blow is never described as damaging further layers, suggesting that the when the section breaks it function as ablative armor and absorbs the rest of the strength of the blow.

The above facts suggest that creating bullets which would punch straight through shardplate is most likely very difficult (if not straight up impossible), as the bullet would have to 1) Shatter the entire section at once, and 2) Also not be affected by the potential ablative effect of the exploding section and damage deeper sections. It also suggests that melting through plate might be impossible, as the sections would shatter whole rather than having holes burned through, i.e. the heat would have to supply enough energy to shatter the entire section, not just enough to melt a small hole.

I have completely missed this fact, at it would have been useful in previous discussions. If there are counterexamples (blow shattering a section and damaging a deeper one as well), please let me know.

Edited March 31, 2021 by therunner
spelling (as completely and completed are not the same word)

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, therunner said:

I have completed missed this fact, at it would have been useful in previous discussions. If there are counterexamples (blow shattering a section and damaging a deeper one as well), please let me know.

From what I recall a section is counted as the entire area 

meaning that you don't have multiple layers of breastplate it's just one section, unless you mean something else.

[therunner]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

From what I recall a section is counted as the entire area 

meaning that you don't have multiple layers of breastplate it's just one section, unless you mean something else.

Yeah, rereading that you do have a point, thank you.

It usually shows shardplated people protecting the shattered area, suggesting that it is vulnerable. (I need to do this sooner in the day so I do not miss stuff like this). In that case creating a bullet which could shatter the entire section is plausible, but the seeming ablative effect might still mean that the bullet would not penetrate the user.

The point on melting still stands I think.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Yeah, rereading that you do have a point, thank you.

It usually shows shardplated people protecting the shattered area, suggesting that it is vulnerable. (I need to do this sooner in the day so I do not miss stuff like this). In that case creating a bullet which could shatter the entire section is plausible, but the seeming ablative effect might still mean that the bullet would not penetrate the user.

The point on melting still stands I think.

I think shardplate would act like glass and just shatter/explode when in contact with large amounts of heat. Would fit with how we have seen it act. 

[BenduLuke]

19 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I--*inhale* *exhale*, my suspension of disbelief would allow for someone with the ability of Wax, or of Kelsier, or of Jasnah, and being the servant of a Shard. Quicksilver seems to have the powers of all of them. That's hard to believe. That's a protagonist, right there. I was under the impression that we weren't supposed to be using protagonists as prime examples of magic system capabilities. How would Quicksilver fare against Oath 4 Kaladin?

 

The scabbard fits the sword perfectly--it's shard enough to be an effective sword on it's own. Nightblood's scabbard is specially made for nightblood, and the tightness of the scabbard means that nightblood doesn't hit the scabbard with momentum and weight, like it did for the rage-fueled swing at the Honorblade. "How thick does it need to be able to block a shardblade." Not stupidly thick, but it will chip, and bend, and deform, and break under sufficient physical force. Like that behind a hammer swing.

Like @Frustration said, just grabbing up any room for interpretation and using it as liberally as possible is both counterintuitive and disingenuous. Do you see us talking about how they could make plate as thick as they wanted because all they need is more spren so they could make entire sprentanks? Do you see us theorizing that you could use Gravitation to outperform any other siege artillery by miles, short of railguns? (which, by the way, @therunner ran the math on that in another thread. They make trebuchets look like weenies.) Do you see us talking about Division just melting all Scadrian Armies or using Anti-Light to kill Harmony or using Connection-y Bondsmith Powers to turn windspren into honorspren, or to steal Metalborn abilities? All of that (exception of one that actually has some mathematical backing) would be dishonest of us because this is a discussion about what we know that each magic system can do based on the evidence that is released up to now. 

We know that Radiants will be able to leave Roshar and take their spren with them. This requires a changing of the spren spiritweb to no longer be connected to Roshar, which would require something happening with the Shard of Honor and likely its perpendicularity. I can speculate that Dalinar will win the Contest of Champions by ascending to the Shard of Honor. Shortly after doing this he kills Odium and takes up that Shard as well, forming the Shard of War (or Conquest). He'll believe that he can temper Odium's Intent, but quickly falls to it. Then he'll turn his sights on Scadrial, and, realizing that they also have a DiShard and their agents are on Roshar, he'll begin making preparations to de-invest his Shard from Roshar, which will allow his Radiants to cross the CR to Scadrial. Since he has incredible Shardic knowledge, he'll inspire the scholars at Urithiru and bring to Rosharans guns, armor, tanks, better flying airships, and knowledge on how to use the surges and fabrials to out-tech Scadrial. War moves into the Scadrian system and punches a hole through the CR in the middle of Elendel. His Skybreakers and Dustbringers flood out and turn the city to ash. Since Harmony was under pressure from its conflicting Intent and from Trell, he can do very little to stop War except by Snapping as many metalborn as possible. Unfortunately for every metalborn he snaps, another thousand Scadrians die to the blitzkrieg of Skybreakers tearing apart every military and economic asset they have. Then through War's perpendicularity emerges the proper Rosharan army. The infantry, loaded with guns, Anti-Light grenades, and Shardblades made from the dead Voidspren that War killed when he took up Odium. They destroy NorScad within a week, and begin invading SoScad, their surges leaving scorched earth in their wake. When War shows his Radiants how they can use surges to split the atom, fire lasers, cleave the earth in two, and cause tectonic instability on a grand scale, they can turn Scadrial into the new Ashyn at their whim.

Did any of that make sense, given what we know? Probably not. I expect everyone here to tear it apart. But hey, there's a lot we don't understand about realmatics. Can anyone actually prove me wrong? Do you see the problem? If we're just going to speculate as much as possible, this is going to turn into a couple of five-year-olds' "imagination duel" where one goes "I shoot you with my death star!" and the other goes "nuh-uh! I have a force field tha--that blows up death stars!" Speculation and imagination is fun, but there needs to be more reasonable limits or this won't go anywhere. 

The scabbard was used to deflect Nightblood by a fused so it can take impact and has been stated that it is aluminum. It seems that the thickness necessary to resist cutting by even Nightblood is the thickness of one side of a scabbard.

I would have loved to have someone say the Radiants were calling more Spren to thicken their plate or some of the other potentially speculative ideas based on what we know of radiants. I was considering having Quicksilver summon shardpistols with shardbullets to fight Radiants after bonding the Spren. With the idea that the Spren can take any form the Radiant can imagine. I know another idea way out there.

Another reason I thought of that someone from Scadrial might go to Roshar would be because Harmony (who has been shown to be worried about Odium and his ambitions) sent him. He might have him stop off at Sel to work with a Forger to write an identities where he has access to other allomantic arts, and or scholarship to use Lerasium correctly and even supplied him with the metal which might potentially be used to give him the capability to burn Godmetals like shardplate and blades. He might be sent to assist Honors forces in countering Odium's forces.

I presume your scenerio takes place if Odium wins the contest. Personally I think Dalinar will ascend to become Honor and then ally himself with Odium and cultivation to combat a greater threat to the Cosmere along with Harmony. Of course if Dalinar becomes the Shard of War being Honor he can simply release himself to conquer the Cosmere. The some of the weaponry you propose would make sense on a second engagement or later. Things like guns, tanks, explosives and so forth. Fabrials seem to be fragile so they would need some way to shield them or risk their destruction.

12 hours ago, therunner said:

[citation needed]. Since storing it is described in degrees, that in fact suggests that it does not work like copper (or potentially) nicrosil, in being something discrete to be taken or stored. And if I remember correctly, even for tapping coppermind you need to be in contact with it, but here I am unsure.

Spren bond to spiritweb. There is some relation between spiritweb, spiritual DNA, Identity, Connection and possibly Fortune (I am basing this one on Kal's talent with spear), but that does not make them interchangeable.

Either way, to even make claim you could access the dead radiants identity, you would need to first initiate the bond yourself, so that the spiritwebs merge with the spren so that its identity merges with yours. And even this has the issue that after first oath the bond can be easily broken without any ill effects, suggesting that spiritwebs are not connected much. I could maybe see this if someone with Aluminum had reached fifth oath with deadblade, but I would still see it as very unlikely.

Per the quote you quoted it does not purify spirit of injury, it "may be possible to cleanse spirit of unwanted effects of investiture". So, only spirit may be cleansed, and only if the effect was caused by Investiture which got into their spiritweb.

This might be distinction without difference, but it suggests that if you damage the spiritweb without using Investiture directly, the effect might not be removable by Aluminum. And savantism carries downsides as well, so becoming savant to be able to heal spiritual wounds caused by investiture may not be a smart idea, depending on what the downsides of savantim are.

In neither case anything in the books suggests charge is needed. And as @Frustration stated, those used in RoW were only in storage, possibly freshly build. If they required some charge Navani would worry about that, yet she does not and just grabs some. Everything in the books suggests that painrials simply magnify whatever feelings are there, sort of like Rioting physical sensations, no storage required.

'Just' reason to fight on a recon mission on another world (so illegal immigrant at best) against someone who does not even know (per your other comments) that Scadrial is a thing? How is proactive violence against someone who wages no war against you and yours nor prepares for one, and who in fact does not even know you exist (again per your other comments), how is that 'just'? You imply that Rosharan has no knowledge of Scadrian weapon, and in fact has little reason to suspect anyone without light is dangerous, so why would a fight against someone who clearly has no clue Scadrial is a thing, or any intentions to attack it, be justified? Either

1. Roshar is actively preparing for war with Scadrial, which would imply that they have at least some information about it and its capabilities, then Agents actions could be called 'just' but he would lose his information advantage and Rosharan would most likely be prepared for a fight with someone with guns (so visor down -> no headshot kill -> agent dead in this scenario).
2. Roshar is not actively preparing for war with Scadrial and has not information about it, then your Agents actions are not 'just' by any meaning of the word, as he simply murdered someone without any reason other than proactive violence against Roshar.

One of the things we do know about F-Aluminum, is that when you are storing Identity, you are more susceptible to Forgery. So whlie the Agents is storing they are more susceptible to Spiritual attacks, in principle someone could quite easily overwrite their Identity forcibly when they are storing completely.

Also, nothing suggests you can tap/store only some parts of Identity, you cannot tap/store only upper body strength for example.

Thicker than one wall of scabbard. Resting an edge against surface is quite different from hitting the surface with any force. I can rest an axe against a log of wood without it going clean through, but if I put any force into the axe it will go through easily.

In the current time the only Scadrians that now anything about Roshar are those involved with Ghostbloods. (and those wild Feruchemists that keep appearing), from what we know. Set seems to have some knowledge of extraplanetary things, but we do not know how much info is Trell sharing.

Conversely, Roshar has easy access to Cognitive realm, their leadership now knows about other planets (Nalthis, Taldain, Scadrial if I remember correctly) and the spren society seems to be quite involved with worldhoppers (paintings from Nalthis for sale, silver chains from Threnody, etc.). Since we know that there was interplanetary trade though Pits of Hathsin, it should be easy for any spy to learn about Scadrial, Allomancy and Feruchemy from the spren or worldhoppers, even if only to Era 1 level of knowledge. This would still prepare them to fight Mistborn/Feruchemists and to assume that small propelled objects fired from seemingly nowhere can be very dangerous.

The problem with that, from my perspective, is that when we are comparing speculation to speculation, then only sky is the limit.

For example, up until RoW no one had any reason to suspect that stealing a bond (or any connection manipulation really) for unchained Bondsmith is as easy as reaching out and and moving connection lines. Or that they could drain away Radiants stormlight by connecting them to ground. What if they could simply take over the connection to Preservation when allomancer burns the metal, so that it is now the Bondsmith who gets the benefit of the metal burning? Or just simply move that connection to ground to remove the Investiture from Mistborn like Ishar did to Radiants? Or move the connection lines from metal to mistborn to themselves?

In principle all of the above proposals are not that large extrapolation of Bondsmith powers, but I still feel that they are dishonest in this discussion. As pure speculation? Sure, why not. But when trying to compare two different worlds whose interaction we have not seen it makes more sense to me to stick to what we have seen, with maybe applying known effects to different goals then in-story characters have though so far (like making shardblade resistant armor from metalminds, semi-shardblades from metalminds, ettmetal weaponry, painrial mines etc.)

Wax is the marksmen on Scadrial, in future they will have comicbooks based on his exploits. There is a reason modern soldiers/agents/policemen are trained to target the body, as that is the easiest thing to target, like in the (in-)famous Mozambique Drill technique. Sure, training against shardbearers would take into account that  body shots will do nothing, but that does not change the fact that hitting just a head is a difficult thing to pull off in high pressure scenarios. Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.

And we are not talking about heads, but about eye slot in armor. Per quick google around, most medieval armor eye slits were in the 4-8mm range in total height, so for a shot from ~7m into the slot 7mm in height you need to have a gun barrel aligned to precision of 0.25mm,  and that is assuming 25cm long gun barrel. For concealed carry the ~10 cm barrels are usually used, giving you only 0.1mm tolerance on aiming.

That is beyond Olympic level performance, and life or dead situation are a bit more stressful than that, not to mention the Agent would not have time to assume ideal shooting position, nor time to calm his breaths, nor time to aim as he liked.

EDIT:  I am surprised that I did not think of this sooner, but most of the usually used bullets have diameter that is comparable to the height of the slot, with the smallest being 4mm. So now the shot needs to be even more precise, as the above calculation kinda assumed that the bullet is point object (which was sloppy of me). If the visor is 7mm and the bullet is 4mm, than the bullet can deviate only by 1.5mm to either up or down to go through cleanly, in numbers (assuming the 10cm barrel of concealed carry gun) that is allowed deviation from the perfect hand position of 0.042mm roughly the width of 3 human hairs. But if the bullet is equally sized, than they need to pull of pretty much perfect shot, and if the bullet is larger than no luck.

If you are counting on Rosharans unfamiliarity does that mean you acknowledge that without knowledge advantage twin aluminum scadrian does not stand much chance?

No need, per

  Reveal hidden contents

Sixth of the Dusk sequel we know that -light-spren restriction can be overcome and they can use -light and sprenblades and shardplates in other star systems.

so getting agent to Scadrial is not speculative (outside of if they can figure it out this soon) and their reason could be just a recon just like yours. Conversely, how could the Scadrian get to Roshar without anyone noticing is another question entirely, as Scadrian would have to use perpendicularity to travel and Shadesmar is quite populated and now in contact with Rosharans.

Shardfork still cut (or stabbed more precisely) anything in its path with ease. So it seems that all you need to take advantage of the cutting aspect of spren-whatever is edge, or a tip.

Whether shardblades cut cognitive only after spiritual is not known as far as I am aware. In fact I mostly red it that the shardblade cuts on spiritual and cognitive (where applicable) level first, and the second cut is only on the physical realm. But admittedly, I do not know.

Yeah, that store Iron reforge into sword would be quite nice trick. I think it was a bit of an accident (if he had attributes the other way around it would not work), but very happy one, maybe I am underestimating Brandon here.

 

@The Technovore This challenge is accepted. (in good spirits of course )

1. I do not think we have ever seen direct shardic action, except against other shards (Elend fueled with Preservation vs Marsh powered by Ruin directly). So no sharing of knowledge (although this might be okay) and no punching of hole from CR in the middle of Elendel. However Elsecaller could quickly take Bondsmith to the Elendel who would then open the perpendicularity.
2. Harmony might well splinter under such pressures to give way to Discord, which might in some ways be more dangerous to the Rosharans or be inclined to join with War (War and Discord sounds like sure friends).
3. Also Harmony might produce Lerasium (or tell how to extract if from ettmetal) and give it to Feruchemists to create at least 12 Fullborn (we have seen only 12 beads I think, so I take that as soft upper bound), who with at least some preparation (few days) should be able to ruin quite a few Radiants and general Rosharans armies. In fact I think only a bondsmith unchained could stand against just one of them.
4. Kelsier would involve himself, and he might be fullborn-like at this point.
5. I do not think voidspren would leave deadblades behind, only bonded Higher spren (of at least 3rd oath) leave behind blades.
6. Division would not be able to split atom (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3308) .
7. Having knowledge of lasers and communicating it well enough for Rosharans to understand might not be so easy, lasers are much more than just a bright source of light, so you would need them to understand that 1) light is waves 2) light is also not waves 3) light must be produced to be space and time coherent .

Based on what I have read Identity seems to be able to be stored or tapped in full or in part. A forger would make a great ally for an Aluminum ferring since they are potentially so easily forged.

I did have the dead agent bond the dead blade over a few days with each new blade then swear the oaths to the level of the former Radiant. So I was trying to indicate they formed a bond to revive the Spren. Regardless I was trying to anticipate what might be possible based on the stated abilities of the metal, but since no one has shown what an Aluminum ferring can do and according to all of you it must have been shown to be discussed there are many things that cannot be discussed on both Roshar and Scadrial.

I am sorry to hear that anticipating or speculating on possible interactions base on what we do know is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I suppose I should have guessed.

My great grandfather could shoot like that. He was known to shoot the door knob off the local chapel during church at a full gallop and if he had ever missed he would have killed someone, so making such a shot is plausible. His father was just as good with a rifle and was known to stack bullets.

 

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Hello, I would add one information that I kind of lost sight off, and I am unsure if others did not as well.

Shardplate is described as neither bending nor denting, in fact hits either shatter the section, or cause cracks to run through the section. Whether this effect also extends to thermal damage is not yet known, but I would assume that it does. When the section breaks it also explodes into pieces of metal. These two effects combined remind me of tempered glass, which is glass which has internal tension which strengthens it. In addition, in at least some (I did not go through all) situations where the section breaks, the blow is never described as damaging further layers, suggesting that the when the section breaks it function as ablative armor and absorbs the rest of the strength of the blow.

The above facts suggest that creating bullets which would punch straight through shardplate is most likely very difficult (if not straight up impossible), as the bullet would have to 1) Shatter the entire section at once, and 2) Also not be affected by the potential ablative effect of the exploding section and damage deeper sections. It also suggests that melting through plate might be impossible, as the sections would shatter whole rather than having holes burned through, i.e. the heat would have to supply enough energy to shatter the entire section, not just enough to melt a small hole.

I have completely missed this fact, at it would have been useful in previous discussions. If there are counterexamples (blow shattering a section and damaging a deeper one as well), please let me know.

I wish you had said that before as well.

Since shardplate is pure investiture and since Spren move as far away from aluminum as possible I had a thought that an aluminum weapon might just pass through shardplate completely unhindered especially living plate.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The scabbard was used to deflect Nightblood by a fused so it can take impact and has been stated that it is aluminum. It seems that the thickness necessary to resist cutting by even Nightblood is the thickness of one side of a scabbard.

I would have loved to have someone say the Radiants were calling more Spren to thicken their plate or some of the other potentially speculative ideas based on what we know of radiants. I was considering having Quicksilver summon shardpistols with shardbullets to fight Radiants after bonding the Spren. With the idea that the Spren can take any form the Radiant can imagine. I know another idea way out there.

Another reason I thought of that someone from Scadrial might go to Roshar would be because Harmony (who has been shown to be worried about Odium and his ambitions) sent him. He might have him stop off at Sel to work with a Forger to write an identities where he has access to other allomantic arts, and or scholarship to use Lerasium correctly and even supplied him with the metal which might potentially be used to give him the capability to burn Godmetals like shardplate and blades. He might be sent to assist Honors forces in countering Odium's forces.

I presume your scenerio takes place if Odium wins the contest. Personally I think Dalinar will ascend to become Honor and then ally himself with Odium and cultivation to combat a greater threat to the Cosmere along with Harmony. Of course if Dalinar becomes the Shard of War being Honor he can simply release himself to conquer the Cosmere. The some of the weaponry you propose would make sense on a second engagement or later. Things like guns, tanks, explosives and so forth. Fabrials seem to be fragile so they would need some way to shield them or risk their destruction.

Based on what I have read Identity seems to be able to be stored or tapped in full or in part. A forger would make a great ally for an Aluminum ferring since they are potentially so easily forged.

I did have the dead agent bond the dead blade over a few days with each new blade then swear the oaths to the level of the former Radiant. So I was trying to indicate they formed a bond to revive the Spren. Regardless I was trying to anticipate what might be possible based on the stated abilities of the metal, but since no one has shown what an Aluminum ferring can do and according to all of you it must have been shown to be discussed there are many things that cannot be discussed on both Roshar and Scadrial.

I am sorry to hear that anticipating or speculating on possible interactions base on what we do know is beyond the scope of this discussion, but I suppose I should have guessed.

My great grandfather could shoot like that. He was known to shoot the door knob off the local chapel during church at a full gallop and if he had ever missed he would have killed someone, so making such a shot is plausible. His father was just as good with a rifle and was known to stack bullets.

 

I wish you had said that before as well.

Since shardplate is pure investiture and since Spren move as far away from aluminum as possible I had a thought that an aluminum weapon might just pass through shardplate completely unhindered especially living plate.

1. A forger is bound to Sel, and not even just the planet a specific region

2.Plate and blades can touch aluminum

3.Yes speculation without evidence is outside the domain of this discussion.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 3/26/2021 at 3:48 PM, The Technovore said:

...Okay, so from my understanding, storing away all your Identity lets you use Identity-restricted magic so long as you have the Investiture. "Blank" Feruchemists can use anyone's metalminds, and "blank" Mistborn can burn anyone's metalmind, which makes me think an F-Aluminum medallion would be a great thing for a Mistborn with Ferring friends to have.

It seems that this is most likely not the case, btw. Though the WoB is... very rambling.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

... So you've got a blank metalmind, right, with nothing. You need either investiture, to be able...like you need to be the right type. There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. ...

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

[Aspiring Writer]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I would have loved to have someone say the Radiants were calling more Spren to thicken their plate or some of the other potentially speculative ideas based on what we know of radiants.

We don't that's how it works yet, so let's move away from that line of thinking.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

since Spren move as far away from aluminum as possible

Spren are not repelled by aluminum, that is a misunderstanding of what aluminum is. It's just immune to magical effects.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I had a thought that an aluminum weapon might just pass through shardplate completely unhindered especially living plate.

No, aluminum would just react to shardplate as if it were a normal metal, negating its supernatural durability. 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Aspiring Writer

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

No, aluminum would just react to shardplate as if it were a normal metal, negating its supernatural durability. 

I don't think so, as plate is only affecting itself, not the aluminum.

[Aspiring Writer]

55 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't think so, as plate is only affecting itself, not the aluminum.

Hmm, true.

[Bejarden]

 Once we’re on the topic...

Can a Bondsmith dismiss someone else’s Living Plate, just get rid of the Connection 

If you somehow pierced a L-Plate with Aluminum would the Connection be Severed, and the Spren go away?

[therunner]

9 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I think shardplate would act like glass and just shatter/explode when in contact with large amounts of heat. Would fit with how we have seen it act. 

I agree, my point was that the heat would have to be large enough to shatter the entire section, supplying enough heat to melt a small part would not be enough. Do we have any examples of shardplate being subjected to large heat?

 

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The scabbard was used to deflect Nightblood by a fused so it can take impact and has been stated that it is aluminum. It seems that the thickness necessary to resist cutting by even Nightblood is the thickness of one side of a scabbard.

Reread that passage, and you are correct. Scabbard seem to be around 3-4 mm thickness, so it seems that that is sufficient to block Nightblood and therefore most likely shardblade.

A thought, Nightblood was an ordinary sword before being awakened, as such is it possible it actually has less shard physical edge then shardblades?

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I would have loved to have someone say the Radiants were calling more Spren to thicken their plate or some of the other potentially speculative ideas based on what we know of radiants. I was considering having Quicksilver summon shardpistols with shardbullets to fight Radiants after bonding the Spren. With the idea that the Spren can take any form the Radiant can imagine. I know another idea way out there.

Shardguns would not be possible with just a spren, spren need to form continuous shape, so no bows and arrows and no guns with bullets. There are some hints it could be done, but it would most likely require some add-on which would supply bullets.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Another reason I thought of that someone from Scadrial might go to Roshar would be because Harmony (who has been shown to be worried about Odium and his ambitions) sent him. He might have him stop off at Sel to work with a Forger to write an identities where he has access to other allomantic arts, and or scholarship to use Lerasium correctly and even supplied him with the metal which might potentially be used to give him the capability to burn Godmetals like shardplate and blades. He might be sent to assist Honors forces in countering Odium's forces.

Getting to Sel is exceedingly difficult even for experienced worldhoppers (the whole 'plasma storm' in congitive realm) so that would be very difficult trip. Second Forgery would most likely not give access to metallic arts, it requires great skill (beyond Shai) and it also requires large amount of investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11253) and finally Forgery will collapse when moved off-world (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5192) It would also interfere with their natural Feruchemy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/216/#e6477).

Oddly there is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3197), saying you could make a stamp to make someone Allomancer, but it would not actually do anything. So it seems that it possibly might not be fully decided if Forgery can be used to grant access to off-world magic systems.

Also most people here assume that both Scadrial and Roshar is united, so assisting Honor against Odium is not feasible reason for the purpose of the discussion. Of course if he did, he could simply ask bondsmith to try and bond him to deadblade and he could try and attract spren on his own, no need to coerce/trick spren of Radiants he killed.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Based on what I have read Identity seems to be able to be stored or tapped in full or in part. A forger would make a great ally for an Aluminum ferring since they are potentially so easily forged.

Yes but if it can be tapped in part, then it does not work like copperminds and definitely has to be continuously tapped to maintain the effect. Forger would also make a great enemy, but alas their magic works only on Sel, and unlike the Ire we have no example of successfully getting it off-world.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I did have the dead agent bond the dead blade over a few days with each new blade then swear the oaths to the level of the former Radiant. So I was trying to indicate they formed a bond to revive the Spren. Regardless I was trying to anticipate what might be possible based on the stated abilities of the metal, but since no one has shown what an Aluminum ferring can do and according to all of you it must have been shown to be discussed there are many things that cannot be discussed on both Roshar and Scadrial.

Problem is that to revive spren of a deadblade bonds are insufficient as far as we know, se the agent would fail at the very first step. And swearing oaths takes time and dedication, just swearing them without fully understanding them and meaning them means nothing. Plus the oaths need to be accepted by seemingly either Stormfather/Dalinar or Cultivation, and the spren must be willing as well, although there is argument that maybe they cannot refuse earnest oaths and Stormfather just talks big game.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

My great grandfather could shoot like that. He was known to shoot the door knob off the local chapel during church at a full gallop and if he had ever missed he would have killed someone, so making such a shot is plausible. His father was just as good with a rifle and was known to stack bullets.

Great, if there were Olympics back then he would be Olympian, still does not make it any easier. And rifles are much better at distance shooting than guns, with the long barrel, higher ammo velocity and more stable firing position. Also stories tend to get embellished with time, so 130-150 year old hearsay is not exactly a good argument. Frankly I was unable to find a single video or example of someone hitting a bullet on top of another bullet, much less doing it repeatedly and consistently. Maybe it is just the search algorithm not being cooperative, but if you have such examples please do provide it.

9 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Since shardplate is pure investiture and since Spren move as far away from aluminum as possible I had a thought that an aluminum weapon might just pass through shardplate completely unhindered especially living plate.

Spren do not avoid aluminum at all, in fact they do not seem to pay much attention to it. Aluminum weapon would definitely not pass unhindered, at best it would negate the supernatural resistance of the plate, but the physical aspect of plate would definitely remain. Argument could be made that at least to some extant the shardplate would maintain its supernatural resistance as well, because metalminds being in touch with aluminum does not affect them in any way, suggesting aluminum does not influence internal effects of investiture.

3 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 Once we’re on the topic...

Can a Bondsmith dismiss someone else’s Living Plate, just get rid of the Connection 

If you somehow pierced a L-Plate with Aluminum would the Connection be Severed, and the Spren go away?

On the bondsmith, I do not think he could force someone to dismiss the plate for two reasons:

1.  Plate interferes with the surges, so it should definitely make it more difficult, or stop it outright.
2. Ishar did not seem to be able to make them dismiss the Shardblades, or at least he did not attempt it.

I think bondsmith unchained might be able to steal the entire bond and with it the plate, but he would need to assign that connection to someone/something. And again, I am not sure if the plate would not at least hinder such attempt.

On the second point, since aluminum seems to have only the passive effect of resisting investiture (blocking investiture from passing through, being unaffected, blocking healing in its vicinity) I do not think it would do anything to the connection. Driven hard enough it might shatter a section, but I do not think it would have any spiritual effect on the spren. If the aluminum was driven with Hemalurgic intent, I...have no idea, as we know little of what spiking spren would do, and much less of what spiking spren in shardplate/shardblade form would do (if it is even possible).

Edited April 1, 2021 by therunner
spelling

[Ixthos]

Quick heads up to those talking about spren and aluminium - spren in gemstones try to avoid it, and it is the method of making decoupled conjoiner fabrials, so using aluminium allows one to isolate a direction from being affected by the conjoiner, the spren actively trying to avoid that spot in the gemstone. It probably isn't as significant when talking about radiant spren, but it definitely seems spren trapped in gemstones - many of which are themselves aluminium oxides - react negatively to it.

[therunner]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

Quick heads up to those talking about spren and aluminium - spren in gemstones try to avoid it, and it is the method of making decoupled conjoiner fabrials, so using aluminium allows one to isolate a direction from being affected by the conjoiner, the spren actively trying to avoid that spot in the gemstone. It probably isn't as significant when talking about radiant spren, but it definitely seems spren trapped in gemstones - many of which are themselves aluminium oxides - react negatively to it.

Interesting, was this in the Dawnshard? I was unable to find it in the books.

[Aspiring Writer]

9 hours ago, therunner said:

agree, my point was that the heat would have to be large enough to shatter the entire section, supplying enough heat to melt a small part would not be enough. Do we have any examples of shardplate being subjected to large heat?

Well, Shardplate breaks after you strike one point multiple times, so I think that intense heat on one point could break the entire section (like a laser *wink wink*) But yeah, the amount of heat would probably be able to fry the user anyways.

[therunner]

11 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, Shardplate breaks after you strike one point multiple times, so I think that intense heat on one point could break the entire section (like a laser *wink wink*) But yeah, the amount of heat would probably be able to fry the user anyways.

I meant it in reference to previous discussion where we were talking about bullets melting bullet-sized holes through shardplate.

Sufficient heat would most likely break the section, but I think that heat would have to be much larger than that required to theoretically melt a small hole, so incendiary bullets would not be sufficient. The big question than is how much heat is enough heat to break a section, lasers are cool and all, but I think it would still require some sustained action when it comes to hand held lasers. The biggest hand-held laser I know of has 200W, which means it would take ~1.5 seconds to deliver the same amount of energy as a single punch. But focused into small enough area maybe?

The working principles of shardplate are  still not that well known, I think.

Edited April 1, 2021 by therunner
spelling

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, therunner said:

I meant it in reference to previous discussion where we were talking about bullets melting bullet-sized holes through shardplate.

Sufficient heat would most likely break the section, but I think that heat would have to be much larger than that required to theoretically melt a small hole, so incendiary bullets would not be sufficient. The big question than is how much heat is enough heat to break a section, lasers are cool and all, but I think it would still require some sustained action when it comes to hand held lasers. The biggest hand-held laser I know of has 200W, which means it would take ~1.5 seconds to deliver the same amount of energy as a single punch. But focused into small enough area maybe?

Well, considering how strong Shardplate is, it is likely the amount of heat it would take to break shardplate would be,1, hard to sustain for long, 2, be able to kill the user through their shardplate (Unless they close the eye visor. (Does Jasnah still feel the outside weather when she closes her armor, remind me)) 3, no solid is surviving that heat except maybe shardblade metal, so bullets aren't happening, and four, there are easier ways to break shardplate than with heat, which is hard to control, even lasers will have uncontrollable effects at those temperatures. 

[BenduLuke]

16 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We don't that's how it works yet, so let's move away from that line of thinking.

 

Spren are not repelled by aluminum, that is a misunderstanding of what aluminum is. It's just immune to magical effects.

 

No, aluminum would just react to shardplate as if it were a normal metal, negating its supernatural durability. 

In the Dawn shard (Just finished it this weekend) Lopen and Huio discovered that Spren in a span reid are repelled by Aluminum and try to get as far away as possible.

12 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

 Once we’re on the topic...

Can a Bondsmith dismiss someone else’s Living Plate, just get rid of the Connection 

If you somehow pierced a L-Plate with Aluminum would the Connection be Severed, and the Spren go away?

Dismiss living plate maybe not, but hijacking it would seem to be in the realm of probability. They are really not suppose to divide connection but transferring connection seems to be within their ability.

I am not sure the Plate gets pierces so much as the possibility of the spren making it up might try to avoid being touched by it so perhaps a whole section disappears or becomes insubstantial at contact. That is wild speculation, but given some examples like the Spanreid fiasco in Dawn Shard seems possible. Not sure how likely. Since plate is made up of lesser spren and lesser investiture they might respond more violently than a Shardblade which we know will impact aluminum.

9 hours ago, therunner said:

I agree, my point was that the heat would have to be large enough to shatter the entire section, supplying enough heat to melt a small part would not be enough. Do we have any examples of shardplate being subjected to large heat?

 

Reread that passage, and you are correct. Scabbard seem to be around 3-4 mm thickness, so it seems that that is sufficient to block Nightblood and therefore most likely shardblade.

A thought, Nightblood was an ordinary sword before being awakened, as such is it possible it actually has less shard physical edge then shardblades?

Shardguns would not be possible with just a spren, spren need to form continuous shape, so no bows and arrows and no guns with bullets. There are some hints it could be done, but it would most likely require some add-on which would supply bullets.

Getting to Sel is exceedingly difficult even for experienced worldhoppers (the whole 'plasma storm' in congitive realm) so that would be very difficult trip. Second Forgery would most likely not give access to metallic arts, it requires great skill (beyond Shai) and it also requires large amount of investiture (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361/#e11253) and finally Forgery will collapse when moved off-world (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5192) It would also interfere with their natural Feruchemy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/216/#e6477).

Oddly there is also this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3197), saying you could make a stamp to make someone Allomancer, but it would not actually do anything. So it seems that it possibly might not be fully decided if Forgery can be used to grant access to off-world magic systems.

Also most people here assume that both Scadrial and Roshar is united, so assisting Honor against Odium is not feasible reason for the purpose of the discussion. Of course if he did, he could simply ask bondsmith to try and bond him to deadblade and he could try and attract spren on his own, no need to coerce/trick spren of Radiants he killed.

Yes but if it can be tapped in part, then it does not work like copperminds and definitely has to be continuously tapped to maintain the effect. Forger would also make a great enemy, but alas their magic works only on Sel, and unlike the Ire we have no example of successfully getting it off-world.

Problem is that to revive spren of a deadblade bonds are insufficient as far as we know, se the agent would fail at the very first step. And swearing oaths takes time and dedication, just swearing them without fully understanding them and meaning them means nothing. Plus the oaths need to be accepted by seemingly either Stormfather/Dalinar or Cultivation, and the spren must be willing as well, although there is argument that maybe they cannot refuse earnest oaths and Stormfather just talks big game.

Great, if there were Olympics back then he would be Olympian, still does not make it any easier. And rifles are much better at distance shooting than guns, with the long barrel, higher ammo velocity and more stable firing position. Also stories tend to get embellished with time, so 130-150 year old hearsay is not exactly a good argument. Frankly I was unable to find a single video or example of someone hitting a bullet on top of another bullet, much less doing it repeatedly and consistently. Maybe it is just the search algorithm not being cooperative, but if you have such examples please do provide it.

Spren do not avoid aluminum at all, in fact they do not seem to pay much attention to it. Aluminum weapon would definitely not pass unhindered, at best it would negate the supernatural resistance of the plate, but the physical aspect of plate would definitely remain. Argument could be made that at least to some extant the shardplate would maintain its supernatural resistance as well, because metalminds being in touch with aluminum does not affect them in any way, suggesting aluminum does not influence internal effects of investiture.

On the bondsmith, I do not think he could force someone to dismiss the plate for two reasons:

1.  Plate interferes with the surges, so it should definitely make it more difficult, or stop it outright.
2. Ishar did not seem to be able to make them dismiss the Shardblades, or at least he did not attempt it.

I think bondsmith unchained might be able to steal the entire bond and with it the plate, but he would need to assign that connection to someone/something. And again, I am not sure if the plate would not at least hinder such attempt.

On the second point, since aluminum seems to have only the passive effect of resisting investiture (blocking investiture from passing through, being unaffected, blocking healing in its vicinity) I do not think it would do anything to the connection. Driven hard enough it might shatter a section, but I do not think it would have any spiritual effect on the spren. If the aluminum was driven with Hemalurgic intent, I...have no idea, as we know little of what spiking spren would do, and much less of what spiking spren in shardplate/shardblade form would do (if it is even possible).

If a Spren can only form a solid object then a Shard pistol would be a no go, but if it is dependent on what the Radiant knows about then moving parts might not be a problem. The bullets could be like manifesting Shardplate or in my scenario it might even be some of the other higher Spren. Bullets wouldn't be a problem they are solid. Just replace them in charged casings he already has for his pistols.

Having a Forger write an Identity to know how to maximize burning Lerasium  and using that Identity on Sel could avoid any problem. In the coppermind one of the examples was of a Forger writing a soul into a full mistborn. The other solution is to store that Identity in aluminum to be tapped anywhere. That would mean the identity is linked to the metal and thus to Harmony and not to Sel anymore. Forging someone into having more allomantic powers might work since they are already innately invested that way you are just giving them more conduits for that investiture.

During the bonding process (it takes 3 days) with the dead shardblade I presume that that the person links some of their identity with that of the blade. I also presume that with that link a Truesoul might be able to transfer some of the blades identity into a metal mind perhaps the part related to the broken bond, perhaps even some residual shadow of the Radiants identity remembered in the blade. If that were possible it facilitate reviving the Spren especially if the person then forged a more powerful bond through oaths. Again I am speculating on how storing Identity works. Identity does seem to be something which can be permanently tapped or stored.

Yeah my great grandparents couldn't have been videoed since they were about a century ago.  My gunslinging Grandfather was a pony express rider in his younger years and a Sheriff in his later years known for his skill both in tracking and gunfighting. There are a number of others from around that era that were also reputed to be about that good like Porter Rockwell, and Doc Holiday. I have also seen videos of people alive who are also that accurate. I think there is one about the fastest gunslinger To see his video he could shoot 6 times so fast it sounded like 2 extended shots and hit 6 small targets within 25 ft in spread over an arc of about 150 degrees. Don't underestimate the skill of someone who really works at a skill.

Here are some examples of bullet stacking

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-shoot-two-bullets-through-the-same-bullet-hole Pay attention to Michael Bird.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12179-Saw-a-bullet-go-through-exact-same-hole

My great gandfather was using more like a muzzle loader. He was the guy that when people came to town bragging about how well they could shoot He was asked to compete. He even beat one guy with his own rifle after only one test shot  in which he determined not only that the rifle sites were off but corrected for it and bullseyed every shot after.

@therunner The amount of heat would depend on a number of factors. How concentrated the heat is. How heat conductive the Plate is. Does the bullet have other properties like a tungsten core in which case the heat isn't the piercing factor but a destructive after affect trapped by the plate. Is the round explosive as well. In my research on this there were some pretty nasty bullets described. Then in the Cosmere we have the wildcard affect of aluminum which is also not fully understood. We don't know the full capability of Shardplate or how resistant to damage it is or if Living shardplate has the same qualities even though we do know it can be broken if it takes enough damage. Is using shardplate beyond this thread since even now its limits are not well understood only that it seems to have some?

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

By the way, Radiant Plate doesn't actually need a slit in the first place. RoW 64:

Quote

Other soldiers came in at Jasnah and began ramming thin pikes through her faceplate. One pierced her eye, making her scream. Stormlight healed her though, and her helm sealed the slit to prevent further attacks. With Stormlight, she didn’t need it to breathe anyway. But this, like her quick summoning of her Blade, was a concession. It risked revealing what she was.

...

She finished off as many of the enemy soldiers as she could find in the flames. Her helm—transparent as glass from the inside—started to get covered in soot, and soon she had to retreat out of the fire.

Edited April 1, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[BenduLuke]

@LewsTherinTelescope So living plate can seal, but most shardbearers or Radiants out of stormlight would suffocate if the face plate sealed.

I was thinking that a Thug/Steelrunner would prove to be a formidable opponent. Pewter physical enhancement with stored pewter speed ferrruchemically tappable. Give him some invested steel armor for protection from hits, windresistance and Friction and a durable heavy hammer and some aluminum spikes to use after shattering his opponents armor and most Radiants would be hurting. Only those who can stay out of reach would have any safety, but he could probably shot put throw the hammer (I think it is actually called a hammer throw) a good distance up let alone long for effect. Steelrunner speed added to pewter enhanced physical abilities in the hammer throw.

[therunner]

3 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Well, considering how strong Shardplate is, it is likely the amount of heat it would take to break shardplate would be,1, hard to sustain for long, 2, be able to kill the user through their shardplate (Unless they close the eye visor. (Does Jasnah still feel the outside weather when she closes her armor, remind me)) 3, no solid is surviving that heat except maybe shardblade metal, so bullets aren't happening, and four, there are easier ways to break shardplate than with heat, which is hard to control, even lasers will have uncontrollable effects at those temperatures. 

I do agree that using heat is impractical, outside of some extreme scenarios where you have a lot of heat output to waste. I think the armor amortizes outside stimuli, but I think heat sufficient to crack the plate would also overcome this mechanism.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In the Dawn shard (Just finished it this weekend) Lopen and Huio discovered that Spren in a span reid are repelled by Aluminum and try to get as far away as possible

Thank you, I was able to find it now. Huio also speculates that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense their other half, so the pushing away might not be to because they fear the aluminum, but to get to a better position where they can maximize their contact with their other half in the second gem. If so, this effect would be limited to conjoiners, or generally any fabrial which requires splitting of a gem with captive spren.

And finally, this effect has so far been observed in captive spren only, not in free spren or spren taking on physical form of their own volition.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I am not sure the Plate gets pierces so much as the possibility of the spren making it up might try to avoid being touched by it so perhaps a whole section disappears or becomes insubstantial at contact. That is wild speculation, but given some examples like the Spanreid fiasco in Dawn Shard seems possible. Not sure how likely. Since plate is made up of lesser spren and lesser investiture they might respond more violently than a Shardblade which we know will impact aluminum

I sincerely doubt this, it would make shardplate completely useless against anyone wielding aluminum weapons, and that is one big weakness considering that Fused use such weapons routinely. It would effectively nullify the usefulness of shardplate completely. I do think there would some reaction of shardplate to aluminum, but nothing as dramatic as whole sections disappearing or becoming insubstantial.

It would also make deadplate better in some regards, as deadplate clearly does not react in such a way to aluminum (someone would have noticed by now), which is odd.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Having a Forger write an Identity to know how to maximize burning Lerasium  and using that Identity on Sel could avoid any problem. In the coppermind one of the examples was of a Forger writing a soul into a full mistborn. The other solution is to store that Identity in aluminum to be tapped anywhere. That would mean the identity is linked to the metal and thus to Harmony and not to Sel anymore. Forging someone into having more allomantic powers might work since they are already innately invested that way you are just giving them more conduits for that investiture.

The Forger would first have to know how to do that, i.e. they would have to know details of allomancy and its spiritual side quite well. Also you would need to get your hands one Lerasium somehow, and I do not see that happening outside of shardic intervention in the near future as it no longer exists.

The only mention I see on coppermind are of turning a person into allomancer generally, not full mistborn specifically. In fact the WoB I linked suggest that it would both very difficult for skill and very intensive on investiture (and some suggest it would not work at all). Storing it as Identity would most likely not work, as the ability to use magic systems is tied to storing nicrosil, so aluminum-twin could not store that. Forgery rewrites spiritweb as a whole, not necessarily just the Identity part. F-nicrosil ferring most likely could per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1560) but he does not sound sure to me, however it does sound plausible.

Actually forging someone who is already invested is more difficult not less, and part of the difficulty of forging is based on plausibility. In principle if the Forger worked out the heritability of allomancy they might have a shot at going for the correct details in the past so that your spiritDNA has the important bits.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

During the bonding process (it takes 3 days) with the dead shardblade I presume that that the person links some of their identity with that of the blade. I also presume that with that link a Truesoul might be able to transfer some of the blades identity into a metal mind perhaps the part related to the broken bond, perhaps even some residual shadow of the Radiants identity remembered in the blade. If that were possible it facilitate reviving the Spren especially if the person then forged a more powerful bond through oaths. Again I am speculating on how storing Identity works. Identity does seem to be something which can be permanently tapped or stored.

Well just three (four) issues with that

1. Having a connection with deadblade =/= merging its identity to yours. I.e. he simply could not store the identity of the blade, connection and identity are not interchangeable, and having connection to someone (even Nahel bond, and this would not yet be one) does not magically merge Identities.
2. There is nothing whatsoever that suggests that deadblades retain some parts of the original Knights identity. In fact, they seem heavily compromised on their cognitive side. Since whatever did this to them is related to imprisoning of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which robbed Singers of their Identity and Connection, it is highly likely that deadblades also have damaged Connection and Identity aspects. So they would deficient on this front, not possessing more.
3. Reswearing the oaths is not enough (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7095) to revive deadblade, something else would need to happen.
4. (As far as I know nothing in feruchemy is permanent, outside of copper but even there memories degrade (and have we seen Sazed keep the memories without contact with the copperminds? I think we did but I am not sure).)

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah my great grandparents couldn't have been videoed since they were about a century ago.  My gunslinging Grandfather was a pony express rider in his younger years and a Sheriff in his later years known for his skill both in tracking and gunfighting. There are a number of others from around that era that were also reputed to be about that good like Porter Rockwell, and Doc Holiday. I have also seen videos of people alive who are also that accurate. I think there is one about the fastest gunslinger To see his video he could shoot 6 times so fast it sounded like 2 extended shots and hit 6 small targets within 25 ft in spread over an arc of about 150 degrees. Don't underestimate the skill of someone who really works at a skill.

Here are some examples of bullet stacking

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-shoot-two-bullets-through-the-same-bullet-hole Pay attention to Michael Bird.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12179-Saw-a-bullet-go-through-exact-same-hole

My great gandfather was using more like a muzzle loader. He was the guy that when people came to town bragging about how well they could shoot He was asked to compete. He even beat one guy with his own rifle after only one test shot  in which he determined not only that the rifle sites were off but corrected for it and bullseyed every shot after.

I do not need a video of your great grandfather, someone intentionally and consistently hitting the same bullet hole right now would suffice. The other two people you mentioned seem to be quite shrouded in legend, i.e. people tell a lot of tall tales about them. If you have seen videos like that please could you try and point me in their direction? The fastest gunslinger I could find is this person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Miculek) and his fastest feat is also only accurate within a deck of cards, far cry from ~3.5mm accuracy needed to hit eye slit.

In the first link the Michael Bird is shooting a rifle with a scope at 45 meters while seated on a bench or prone with tri-pod and even then he put the round into a circle of ~18mm diameter, so again not consistent shots with 3.5mm accuracy, even though he has much more precise gun, scope, superior shooting position and all the time in the world to aim. Other comments in the first link repeatedly say, that while possible, any little thing can throw you off, like pulling a trigger in a bad way, or a heartbeat.

In the second link they are talking about accidentally putting a bullet through the same hole twice, not intentionally as your agent would have to.

So I do not see the links as too convincing, the shot is possible on a shooting range with stationary target, but still not consistently enough to rely on it in stressful life or death situation, where a lot of factors are not in your control (like aiming time, angle, that the target moves unlike in your examples with stationary targets, weather).

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

@therunner The amount of heat would depend on a number of factors. How concentrated the heat is. How heat conductive the Plate is. Does the bullet have other properties like a tungsten core in which case the heat isn't the piercing factor but a destructive after affect trapped by the plate. Is the round explosive as well. In my research on this there were some pretty nasty bullets described. Then in the Cosmere we have the wildcard affect of aluminum which is also not fully understood. We don't know the full capability of Shardplate or how resistant to damage it is or if Living shardplate has the same qualities even though we do know it can be broken if it takes enough damage. Is using shardplate beyond this thread since even now its limits are not well understood only that it seems to have some?

Concentration of heat might not matter much if the damage is spread across the entire section, but until we know more it is possible. Since shardblade does not bend or dent, piercing factors are not important, as the bullet would not get caught by the plate. And if the shattering of section does work like ablative armor, then the explosion would be consumed by that, even if the section shatter after a single bullet.

We know effects of aluminum on invested weaponry quite well (it just negates the supernatural cutting properties it seems, but nothing else) so we can apply that to its effect on other invested items, like shardplates. This would suggest that aluminum would not do much, if anything. Living plate should have at least the same capabilities as the dead one, as the living blades did have all the abilities of dead ones, and more. So defaulting to properties of deadplate for the living one is reasonable, outside of where we have seen the difference (i.e. sharing living plate, partial summoning, plate being always there etc.)

And there is a difference in trying to piece together some new properties (how aluminum effects shardplate) from known facts (how aluminum effects shardblades, how aluminum is used on Roshar in warfare) versus headcanoning new powers wildly outside of anything we have seen (storing attributes of others using personal feruchemy).

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I was thinking that a Thug/Steelrunner would prove to be a formidable opponent. Pewter physical enhancement with stored pewter speed ferrruchemically tappable. Give him some invested steel armor for protection from hits, windresistance and Friction and a durable heavy hammer and some aluminum spikes to use after shattering his opponents armor and most Radiants would be hurting. Only those who can stay out of reach would have any safety, but he could probably shot put throw the hammer (I think it is actually called a hammer throw) a good distance up let alone long for effect. Steelrunner speed added to pewter enhanced physical abilities in the hammer throw.

Depending on their max speed I could see them being formidable. Heavy hitting (3x human strength) so should be able to get through section of a plate in under ~30 seconds? I would say 12 good hits to shatter larger section of plate? Maybe faster, I would need to reread parts of WoK and WoR. It would also depend on their maximum speed, since wind resistence effects them they could not move much faster than ~200-400 km/h I would assume (this is how difficult is to try and walk against ~200km/h hour wind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4pFdLJmG7M), but that still give them at least 4x-6x the speed advantage.

1. I think orders with Transportation would be able to avoid him, just go to cognitive (Elsecallers kill him from Cognitive)
2. order with Gravitation would be able to avoid him, and Windrunners could use Reverse Lashing to tie him to a spot, or close enough at least, as it can impart ~300m/s^2 acceleration, far beyond steelrunners speed if he does not want to waste his stores)
3. orders with Abrasion might slip away (if they can put Abrasion on their armor as well), but they would need to get lucky
4. orders with Cohesion might take their footing away, or trap their legs taking away their advantage
5. orders with Illumination could hide with Illusions, or blind them

All in all, if they could get close enough before Radiants can use their surges they might take them, but most orders have at least 1 tool to make the job difficult (with Abrasion and Illumination being the weakest tools in my opinion). Bondsmith would be most likely screwed, unless he simply opens perpendicularity and waits for the attacker to waste their stores.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by therunner
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[LewsTherinTelescope]

37 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

@LewsTherinTelescope So living plate can seal, but most shardbearers or Radiants out of stormlight would suffocate if the face plate sealed.

I mean a Radiant in their Plate without Stormlight has bigger issues, considering it's not unlikely that it will completely lock up. And Radiants are probably more common than plain Shardbearers, honestly, so the latter (while dangerous) aren't the main group for Scadrians to be worried about here anyway.

[BenduLuke]

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I do agree that using heat is impractical, outside of some extreme scenarios where you have a lot of heat output to waste. I think the armor amortizes outside stimuli, but I think heat sufficient to crack the plate would also overcome this mechanism.

Thank you, I was able to find it now. Huio also speculates that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense their other half, so the pushing away might not be to because they fear the aluminum, but to get to a better position where they can maximize their contact with their other half in the second gem. If so, this effect would be limited to conjoiners, or generally any fabrial which requires splitting of a gem with captive spren.

And finally, this effect has so far been observed in captive spren only, not in free spren or spren taking on physical form of their own volition.

I sincerely doubt this, it would make shardplate completely useless against anyone wielding aluminum weapons, and that is one big weakness considering that Fused use such weapons routinely. It would effectively nullify the usefulness of shardplate completely. I do think there would some reaction of shardplate to aluminum, but nothing as dramatic as whole sections disappearing or becoming insubstantial.

It would also make deadplate better in some regards, as deadplate clearly does not react in such a way to aluminum (someone would have noticed by now), which is odd.

The Forger would first have to know how to do that, i.e. they would have to know details of allomancy and its spiritual side quite well. Also you would need to get your hands one Lerasium somehow, and I do not see that happening outside of shardic intervention in the near future as it no longer exists.

The only mention I see on coppermind are of turning a person into allomancer generally, not full mistborn specifically. In fact the WoB I linked suggest that it would both very difficult for skill and very intensive on investiture (and some suggest it would not work at all). Storing it as Identity would most likely not work, as the ability to use magic systems is tied to storing nicrosil, so aluminum-twin could not store that. Forgery rewrites spiritweb as a whole, not necessarily just the Identity part. F-nicrosil ferring most likely could per this WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1560) but he does not sound sure to me, however it does sound plausible.

Actually forging someone who is already invested is more difficult not less, and part of the difficulty of forging is based on plausibility. In principle if the Forger worked out the heritability of allomancy they might have a shot at going for the correct details in the past so that your spiritDNA has the important bits.

Well just three (four) issues with that

1. Having a connection with deadblade =/= merging its identity to yours. I.e. he simply could not store the identity of the blade, connection and identity are not interchangeable, and having connection to someone (even Nahel bond, and this would not yet be one) does not magically merge Identities.
2. There is nothing whatsoever that suggests that deadblades retain some parts of the original Knights identity. In fact, they seem heavily compromised on their cognitive side. Since whatever did this to them is related to imprisoning of Ba-Ado-Mishram, which robbed Singers of their Identity and Connection, it is highly likely that deadblades also have damaged Connection and Identity aspects. So they would deficient on this front, not possessing more.
3. Reswearing the oaths is not enough (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7095) to revive deadblade, something else would need to happen.
4. (As far as I know nothing in feruchemy is permanent, outside of copper but even there memories degrade (and have we seen Sazed keep the memories without contact with the copperminds? I think we did but I am not sure).)

I do not need a video of your great grandfather, someone intentionally and consistently hitting the same bullet hole right now would suffice. The other two people you mentioned seem to be quite shrouded in legend, i.e. people tell a lot of tall tales about them. If you have seen videos like that please could you try and point me in their direction? The fastest gunslinger I could find is this person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Miculek) and his fastest feat is also only accurate within a deck of cards, far cry from ~3.5mm accuracy needed to hit eye slit.

In the first link the Michael Bird is shooting a rifle with a scope at 45 meters while seated on a bench or prone with tri-pod and even then he put the round into a circle of ~18mm diameter, so again not consistent shots with 3.5mm accuracy, even though he has much more precise gun, scope, superior shooting position and all the time in the world to aim. Other comments in the first link repeatedly say, that while possible, any little thing can throw you off, like pulling a trigger in a bad way, or a heartbeat.

In the second link they are talking about accidentally putting a bullet through the same hole twice, not intentionally as your agent would have to.

So I do not see the links as too convincing, the shot is possible on a shooting range with stationary target, but still not consistently enough to rely on it in stressful life or death situation, where a lot of factors are not in your control (like aiming time, angle, that the target moves unlike in your examples with stationary targets, weather).

Concentration of heat might not matter much if the damage is spread across the entire section, but until we know more it is possible. Since shardblade does not bend or dent, piercing factors are not important, as the bullet would not get caught by the plate. And if the shattering of section does work like ablative armor, then the explosion would be consumed by that, even if the section shatter after a single bullet.

We know effects of aluminum on invested weaponry quite well (it just negates the supernatural cutting properties it seems, but nothing else) so we can apply that to its effect on other invested items, like shardplates. This would suggest that aluminum would not do much, if anything. Living plate should have at least the same capabilities as the dead one, as the living blades did have all the abilities of dead ones, and more. So defaulting to properties of deadplate for the living one is reasonable, outside of where we have seen the difference (i.e. sharing living plate, partial summoning, plate being always there etc.)

And there is a difference in trying to piece together some new properties (how aluminum effects shardplate) from known facts (how aluminum effects shardblades, how aluminum is used on Roshar in warfare) versus headcanoning new powers wildly outside of anything we have seen (storing attributes of others using personal feruchemy).

We haven't seen much aluminum used since it is very rare on Roshar only available from Horneater peaks or soulcasting which is stated as very difficult so we really haven't seen it used as a weapon.

The forger wouldn't be adding investiture but switching the conduit of the investiture by forging someone who is already an allomancer. One of the issues with forgery is that a persons identity eventually causes the seal to break down, but a True self can avoid that. That is potentially both good and bad.

From what I have seen connection and identity are both interconnected and inseparable.

I gave you those links to show you it is possible to stack shots even today when it is not so important that someone needs to be that accurate. Scoff at that accuracy if you want I happen to know my Grandfathers were that good with firearms, My father was almost that consistently good and he was blind in one eye. To my knowledge he only met one other person who was better at target shooting than he was and that was in basic training. The guy was a professional marksman before he joined. I don't know if that same man was as good when it came to hunting because I have never met or heard of anyone who was a better shot in that situation, and I know allot of hunters it is kind of a major past time in the area I grew up. Both my grandfather (his father was the Sheriff) and Father told me that gunfighters weren't feared because they were fast but because they hit what they shot. Doc Holiday was deadly because he didn't care if he died so he never rushed a shot, and Porter Rockwell believed Joseph Smith's prophesy that he wouldn't die by a gun so he never rushed a shot either, that being said they were both relatively fast.

We also know that aluminum messes with investiture and can shut down invested healing until removed, is immune to gravity and adhesion surges as well as others. Wax should have made more of an effort to get some of those aluminum bullets to use on Miles, because they would have worked.