Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[therunner]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I do think that it's somewhat complicated by the fact that Nightblood and Vivenna's Blade were presumably Awakened with a specific Command and Intent, but the fact that they drain color just like Awakening doesn't feel like a coincidence to me.

Mist seems like something that would fit Scadrial, yeah. Not super sure if it'd do that or not (just because it's a lot more dramatic than the others we've seen besides Nightblood), but I can't think of anything else that ties into the planet thematically as well as the mists do.

Yeah, the fact that Nalthis uses Intents and Commands broadens their scope, and possibly complicates their analysis. I would call burning out eyes to be quite dramatic personally, I did not mean to suggests that the bodies would entirely turn to mist, maybe have some vapor/mist coming off for a short while, sort of like a fresh cup of tea. (that is comparison I did not expect).

And something I meant to say before but always forgot, you have a really cool and funny username

[Halyo_Alex]

6 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, the fact that Nalthis uses Intents and Commands broadens their scope, and possibly complicates their analysis. I would call burning out eyes to be quite dramatic personally, I did not mean to suggests that the bodies would entirely turn to mist, maybe have some vapor/mist coming off for a short while, sort of like a fresh cup of tea. (that is comparison I did not expect).

And something I meant to say before but always forgot, you have a really cool and funny username

That visual would certainly lend itself towards calling these scadrian shardblades "mistblades", would it not?

I've long thought that Spren-blades and plate should've been called Stormblades/plate, because we already have Shards as something of huge importance in the Cosmere and it's just weird or even confusing sometimes, especially to new readers.

tangent aside I do think that with some medallion and ettmetal mechanisms you could give someone the Scadrian equivalent of an Honorblade; have the handle made of a medallion containing F-Iron and A-Pewter, and have them prime an Ettmetal mechanism (or 2, probably) with each power (storing weight like the Southerner Airship, and burning Pewter to enhance the durability). In fact, it may come down to the cognitive perception of the whole mechanism as a sword, causing the ettmetal to enhance it the way i'm thinking of.

In addition to having a twinborn combo that gives the Mistblade it's signature "shardblade-like" qualities (low weight, high durability), it's also just a really nice twinborn combo for the wielder. A-Pewter and F-Iron in conjunction could further increase their ability to cut through things with the physically enhanced blade. In fact, if the Ettmetal storage as primed by the user is unkeyed (or more likely, Keyed to the primer's Identity), then the user could tap the very weight that their Blade is storing up. Pair that with a decent supply of pewter, and you've got a pretty nice magic sword from Scadrial.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That visual would certainly lend itself towards calling these scadrian shardblades "mistblades", would it not?

I've long thought that Spren-blades and plate should've been called Stormblades/plate, because we already have Shards as something of huge importance in the Cosmere and it's just weird or even confusing sometimes, especially to new readers.

tangent aside I do think that with some medallion and ettmetal mechanisms you could give someone the Scadrian equivalent of an Honorblade; have the handle made of a medallion containing F-Iron and A-Pewter, and have them prime an Ettmetal mechanism (or 2, probably) with each power (storing weight like the Southerner Airship, and burning Pewter to enhance the durability). In fact, it may come down to the cognitive perception of the whole mechanism as a sword, causing the ettmetal to enhance it the way i'm thinking of.

In addition to having a twinborn combo that gives the Mistblade it's signature "shardblade-like" qualities (low weight, high durability), it's also just a really nice twinborn combo for the wielder. A-Pewter and F-Iron in conjunction could further increase their ability to cut through things with the physically enhanced blade. In fact, if the Ettmetal storage as primed by the user is unkeyed (or more likely, Keyed to the primer's Identity), then the user could tap the very weight that their Blade is storing up. Pair that with a decent supply of pewter, and you've got a pretty nice magic sword from Scadrial.

They are called shardblades due to how invested they are, and will be called shardblades no matter where they are from.

EDIT: I just realised that this thread is almost a tenth of the entire forum

Edited March 29, 2021 by Frustration

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Frustration said:

They are called shardblades due to how invested they are, and will be called shardblades no matter where they are from.

Okay... But there's a distinction between Sprenblades and Honorblades.

Sure, the concept of a "magic sword" as a whole can be called Shardblades, blades powered by Shard-induced effects, but the blades (and plate) specifically from Roshar made by spren would be less confusing if their common name was Stormblades/plate.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay... But there's a distinction between Sprenblades and Honorblades.

Sure, the concept of a "magic sword" as a whole can be called Shardblades, blades powered by Shard-induced effects, but the blades (and plate) specifically from Roshar made by spren would be less confusing if their common name was Stormblades/plate.

I think it's a cool name but it might be overcomplicating it to give each specific type a different name. NIghtblood is often called a Shardblade, despite being made by Endowment's system, I think coming up with an entire other name would only make it more confusing than just calling them all shardblades.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Frustration

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Frustration said:

I think it's a cool name but it might be overcomplicating it to give each specific type a different name. NIghtblood is often called a Shardblade, despite being made by Endowment, I think coming up with an entire other name would only make it more confusing than just calling them all shardblades.

Well yeah, you can do that. Call them Rosharan or Scadrian or Nalthian Shardblades.

[Frustration]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Well yeah, you can do that. Call them Rosharan or Scadrian or Nalthian Shardblades.

Now that I could get behind.

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, Frustration said:

Now that I could get behind.

Cool. Now that that's settled, does anyone have thoughts on my interpretation of a Scadrian Shardblade?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

I did not mean to suggests that the bodies would entirely turn to mist, maybe have some vapor/mist coming off for a short while, sort of like a fresh cup of tea.

Oh okay, in that case I can definitely see it.

14 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

tangent aside I do think that with some medallion and ettmetal mechanisms you could give someone the Scadrian equivalent of an Honorblade; have the handle made of a medallion containing F-Iron and A-Pewter, and have them prime an Ettmetal mechanism (or 2, probably) with each power (storing weight like the Southerner Airship, and burning Pewter to enhance the durability). In fact, it may come down to the cognitive perception of the whole mechanism as a sword, causing the ettmetal to enhance it the way i'm thinking of.

What does the ettmetal do here?

Edit: I see you explained it in the comment and I just didn't read carefully, my bad

6 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Well yeah, you can do that. Call them Rosharan or Scadrian or Nalthian Shardblades.

I'd probably suggest being a bit more specific to the magic system (ex. Awakened Blade, not just Nalthian Blade), since some planets have multiple magic systems (though admittedly I have no idea how an Allomantic Blade would work, and a Hemalurgic Blade sounds... messy... to make), but yeah.

Edited March 29, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

What does the ettmetal do here?

Allows the sword itself to store weight in an ironmind (a la southerner airship) and "burn" pewter to enhance the blade's durability.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Allows the sword itself to store weight in an ironmind (a la southerner airship) and "burn" pewter to enhance the blade's durability.

Ah, I see. I wonder how atium and lerasium are in that department?

[Halyo_Alex]

Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah, I see. I wonder how atium and lerasium are in that department?

I recall there being a WoB that Atium behaves like a platinum group metal, but IDK if that means it's super malleable or not. Recall however Zane's trick on Vin with the atium-coated lead bead, so it's at least not impossible to form it around a metal like Lead.

[therunner]

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That visual would certainly lend itself towards calling these scadrian shardblades "mistblades", would it not?

tangent aside I do think that with some medallion and ettmetal mechanisms you could give someone the Scadrian equivalent of an Honorblade; have the handle made of a medallion containing F-Iron and A-Pewter, and have them prime an Ettmetal mechanism (or 2, probably) with each power (storing weight like the Southerner Airship, and burning Pewter to enhance the durability). In fact, it may come down to the cognitive perception of the whole mechanism as a sword, causing the ettmetal to enhance it the way i'm thinking of.

In addition to having a twinborn combo that gives the Mistblade it's signature "shardblade-like" qualities (low weight, high durability), it's also just a really nice twinborn combo for the wielder. A-Pewter and F-Iron in conjunction could further increase their ability to cut through things with the physically enhanced blade. In fact, if the Ettmetal storage as primed by the user is unkeyed (or more likely, Keyed to the primer's Identity), then the user could tap the very weight that their Blade is storing up. Pair that with a decent supply of pewter, and you've got a pretty nice magic sword from Scadrial.

I like the name 'Mistblade', it is quite mystical.

The potential issue with this mechanism I think might be that while this application of ettmetal would result in very light, potentially very durable sword (have we seen mechanical allomancy? it has been a while since I fully read Era 2) it would not imbue it with the supernatural qualities of Nalthian or Rosharan Shardblades. It would definitely make for a good sword, but I do not think it would have that 'cut effortlessly through anything and cut souls of living things first' quality. Maybe also add F-nicrosil ettmetal part, to store investiture into the sword? As it seems being highly invested is important for the workings of Shardblades.

The secondary mechanism of tapping the attribute sword stores is quite creative use, potential limit I see is that I am unsure if two different people/entities can tap and store into the same metalmind simultaneously. But this could be overcome by using two metalminds and alternating them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

Maybe also add F-nicrosil ettmetal part, to store investiture into the sword? As it seems being highly invested is important for the workings of Shardblades.

You could also just.... make sure it's made of a viable metal and store into it?

[Halyo_Alex]

7 hours ago, therunner said:

I like the name 'Mistblade', it is quite mystical.

Quite... Mistical?

7 hours ago, therunner said:

The potential issue with this mechanism I think might be that while this application of ettmetal would result in very light, potentially very durable sword (have we seen mechanical allomancy? it has been a while since I fully read Era 2) it would not imbue it with the supernatural qualities of Nalthian or Rosharan Shardblades. It would definitely make for a good sword, but I do not think it would have that 'cut effortlessly through anything and cut souls of living things first' quality. Maybe also add F-nicrosil ettmetal part, to store investiture into the sword? As it seems being highly invested is important for the workings of Shardblades.

That does seem to be an issue. I can't think of anything really native to Scadrial that would cause those properties. Maybe using an Atium blade, but that would REALLY limit the amount of these you can make.

7 hours ago, therunner said:

The secondary mechanism of tapping the attribute sword stores is quite creative use, potential limit I see is that I am unsure if two different people/entities can tap and store into the same metalmind simultaneously. But this could be overcome by using two metalminds and alternating them.

I mean, if the person priming the F-Iron storage of the ettmetal in the sword is the same person who's later tapping that storage, I don't see why there would be a severe Identity mismatch.

44 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

You could also just.... make sure it's made of a viable metal and store into it?

True. My idea is to take some iron, store weight until it's full, alloy it into steel (which leaves it feruchemically charged, but now because it's steel, that charge of weight is inaccessible by ANYONE), and then shape that steel into the blade, making it push/pull resistant, among other things.

[therunner]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

You could also just.... make sure it's made of a viable metal and store into it?

Yeah, that would be the easier option Unless nicrosil allows storage of kinetic investiture, and then you would be less limited by time spent storing attributes. Bands of Mourning were quite small, but seemingly still not 100% full, so to store enough "natural" charge to fill metalmind the size of sword might not be feasible without compounding.

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Quite... Mistical?

That does seem to be an issue. I can't think of anything really native to Scadrial that would cause those properties. Maybe using an Atium blade, but that would REALLY limit the amount of these you can make.

I mean, if the person priming the F-Iron storage of the ettmetal in the sword is the same person who's later tapping that storage, I don't see why there would be a severe Identity mismatch.

True. My idea is to take some iron, store weight until it's full, alloy it into steel (which leaves it feruchemically charged, but now because it's steel, that charge of weight is inaccessible by ANYONE), and then shape that steel into the blade, making it push/pull resistant, among other things.

Mistical, indeed . Punnery is a great past-time.

I did not mean limitation due to Identity, but more mechanical limitation on Feruchemy, i.e. if it is possible to tap and store into the same metalmind at the time. But like I said, this could be easily overcome, so it is more engineering issue.

What advantage would there be for the attribute stored in sword to be untapabble by anyone? To protect from Identity/Connection shenanigans, so the blade could not even in principle be drained in fight? I think that storing weight into iron, which is seemingly among the easiest attributes to store, and then forging that into steel is a great idea, as it helps overcome the difficulty of storing into steel.

[Halyo_Alex]

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I did not mean limitation due to Identity, but more mechanical limitation on Feruchemy, i.e. if it is possible to tap and store into the same metalmind at the time. But like I said, this could be easily overcome, so it is more engineering issue.

Ah, then yeah, you could have two ironminds that the ettmetal can use, and the Primer can tap.

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

What advantage would there be for the attribute stored in sword to be untapabble by anyone? To protect from Identity/Connection shenanigans, so the blade could not even in principle be drained in fight?

That's mostly a nice bonus to the point you brought up below.

11 minutes ago, therunner said:

I think that storing weight into iron, which is seemingly among the easiest attributes to store, and then forging that into steel is a great idea, as it helps overcome the difficulty of storing into steel.

And Steel is a good material for a sword to be made out of to begin with, so it works automatically. I wonder if Brandon planned that for easy invested weapons...

[LewsTherinTelescope]

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, that would be the easier option Unless nicrosil allows storage of kinetic investiture, and then you would be less limited by time spent storing attributes. Bands of Mourning were quite small, but seemingly still not 100% full, so to store enough "natural" charge to fill metalmind the size of sword might not be feasible without compounding.

Oh yeah, Compounding would definitely be very necessary for any of this, I think.

[BenduLuke]

On 3/27/2021 at 4:57 PM, therunner said:

No, any storing/tapping of identity is temporary, that is what Feruchemy does temporarily change some attributes of Feruchemist.

Again, most likely no. If Identity stored for example understanding or experience, than completly storing your Identity (pre-requisite to creating unkeyed metalminds) would result in them loosing their ability to store/tap (as it is partly a learned skill). Nicrosil as we know, only stores investiture in ones own spiritweb, not one connected to it. Aluminum has no expansion potential, that would require you to force your identity on some other investiture, outside of scope of all metallic arts.

Per coppermind, aluminum heals cognitive aspect, it will do nothing about physical wounds, no matter what the source of the physical wound.

No, Identity identifies what investiture belongs to whom. Close connection does not imply shared identity, and again whatever connection the Radiant had, since the blade you are talking about is deadblade, the connection was explicitly broken.

Really? What is the nature of this link? Please do say more.

Nope, you just take a fabrial press a button and you are done, no charging (outside of stormlight) necessary. She literally just puts it against the skin of someone and flips a switch.

Except the spren who do bond very clearly do not think that they can blame people currently alive for the sins of the past? Or they feel they need to to protect themselves from Odium? That is quite different from working with someone who killed someone(EDIT) you chose to bond with, I would even say that the Agent stealing (which is outside the scope of F-aluminum, but whatever) part of their partners souls would make them revile the Agent, not make it simpler. Me killing someones husband and then wearing their skin around them will not make it easier for them to accept me.

Well, but if the Roshar is in conflict with Scadrial which has invested non-glowy people, why are they not more suspicous? Again, why do give information advantage to the Scadrian but deny it to Roshar?

Navani did it in specially equipped lab after weeks of experiments. And F-nicrosil does not allow you to modify what you are storing. Why do you keep insisting on adding on new things on known abilities? Nicrosil stores investiture, period. It does not change investiture.

And @BenduLuke

calling someones views narrow and implying that they cannot understand basic and simple ideas is an insult.  When people disagree with you, you seem to have a tendency to take on a bit of condescending tone, implying that you are capable of great intuitive leaps, that your ideas are simple and those who do not see it are narrow minded.

No one has to accept your explanation which has no supporting basis whatsoever, outside of your own imagination.

Identity appears to be the one thing you can store or tap that is permanent.

What makes up Identity? It seems to me it would be personality, experience, training, talents, and skills up to that point in life With aluminum it is descibed as spiritual sense of Identity." This ability is not fully understood. The not fully understood is where there is allot of room to speculate so I do. I do think there is a cognitive aspect to it as well as a physical aspect. It is the identity that Spren bond to and over time and oaths the Radiant and Spren Identities complete each other or in other words partially merge. Any later bonds with that Spen will include some of that Identity.

Per coppermind Aluminum-A purifies the spirit of injury. "an Allomantic savant with aluminum, it may be possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture."

I seem to remember that Navani had been storing pain for some time so when she inverted the painrial and used it on her attackers that is what disabled them. Same with the one she set up as a trap for the fused.

The Highspren that bonded Quicksilver felt he had a just reason to fight his previous Knight in defense of his world and felt he had a just desire to revive dead spren so accepted his bond. It made it easier that part of the Skybreakers Identity was now part of Quicksilver. Here is a quirky potential for aluminum. A person can store all the Identity. They are then a blank slate. If exposed to another Identity they could potentially be open to that and store it as well then tap the best parts of each Identity forming a new better Identity in the process. Over time through this Identity sifting process they could have Identities to use in any circumstance, but unlike forgers theirs are permanent until stored again. Nowhere does it say they can only store only their original Identity and Aluminum is as Brandon said weird and still not understood which I interpret to mean it may not operate like other metals. It almost seems like a potential God metal itself without a shard.

How thick does it need to be to block a shardblade. Only as thick as one wall of a sword scabbard. That is against Nightblood perhaps the most powerful shardblade in the Cosmere. Nightblood didn't even chip it like he did to an honorblade.

In the current state it's possible that some on Scadrial know about Roshar and the potential for invasion at some time, but the opposite is not true. So sending agents to scout is an acceptable precaution. Almost all Skybreakers serve Odium so are most likely to be a Scadrian's Radiant opponent. Additionally the agents are equipped with general anti-magic gear according to their abilities. Quicksilver, if aluminum works the way I speculate, acquired intelligence from ancient Spren on what to expect so had a major information advantage. Rosharan's are not familiar with Scadrian weapons and don't see any red flags like glowing or shards that worry them until it is to late. The Scadrian's on the other hand are used to taking the attitude of threat until proven other wise.

No none of you need to accept my explanation or speculation, but with all the hand waving and open potentials still in the system rejecting my speculation out of hand because it doesn't fit your idea of how it works is also disingenuous. In other words when you say it doesn't work that way when things haven't been fully explained it feels like an insult to me, and until recently I feel I have been very patient with the condescending tones of many of those who respond to me.

On 3/27/2021 at 6:32 PM, The Technovore said:

Shardblades cut in the Physical and Spiritual Realms because they are literally the bodies of spren. The Spiritual Realm is the realm of Investiture, Connection, and Identity, while the Physical Realm is the realm of Matter and Energy, and the Cognitive is the realm of minds, souls, and perceptions. Spren bridge all three realms. Their spark of life and their bodies comes from the Spiritual, their minds are sprung from the thoughts of humans, and through human thought and the Nahel bond they manifest in the Physical as godmetal. This is not a mistake, as we see godmetal first described in Mistborn as created "from the body of the Shard themself" which is significant in a theory I'm building.

This is why when Shardblades cut, they attack the soul directly, in the Spiritual Realm. All the surges work on similar principles. Gravitation. Adhesion. Cohesion. Soulcasting. They are all direct manipulations of Physical processes by manipulating the Cognitive and Spiritual components of objects and beings, fueled by the Investiture that leaks from the Spiritual to the Physical via the Shardic perpendicularities. Hemalurgy works on similar principles to this, using base-16 metals to attack the Spiritweb and steal components, with Ruin's Investiture fueling the interaction. Allomancy works on principles closer to the Dor on Sel. The Investiture of Preservation enters the Physical Realm to exert change, using the metals being burned to determine the effect the power has. If the main types of Invested Arts we see now are either based on affecting the Spiritweb or Directing Shardic Power, Feruchemy sits closely in the middle. Feruchemy allows one to use Investiture to manipulate and twist their own spiritweb in a series of ways.

I believe that Identity and Investiture when pertaining to spiritwebs describe two different parts of a spiritweb. I don't think it's Identity that allows a spren's body to cut in the Spiritual, but rather that because a Spren exists as living Investiture, and therefore is innately from the Spiritual Realm, the damage it does is direct to a spiritweb. You might use Connection/Identity shenanigans to speed up the recovery of a spren, but we won't know until the interaction between Adolin and Maya is properly explained. 

What I don't like about the Quicksilver scenario is that it requires a heavy amount of plot-power in Quicksilver. Quicksilver to do these things must have the aim of Waxillium, the competency of Kelsier, the virtue of Adolin, and the knowledge of Jasnah as well as the planning and foresight that could only come from being the direct servant of a Shard. If we're going to go that route, I could write a similar story about Heln the Edgedancer who under the direction of Cultivation did a bunch of Rosharan-magic hacking and teamed up with Kalak to go to Scadrial and steal the Bands of Mourning to open a perpendicularity on Scadrial and trap Odium in the Scadrian system. While mechanically I can jump through the mental hoops required to make it work mechanically, how likely is it to happen without a ton of plot-armor and authorial manipulations?

So you don't think it is the cutting identity of a blade that allows for spiritual cutting? When spren become hammers, shields or forks they don't cut the spirit web or spirit connection of the part. Identity is a cross realm attribute inherent in all semi-sentient or living things.

Wax isn't the only marksman so choosing a marksman as a scout would be a good idea. He certainly would become more virtuous as he made oaths to Revive the Spren. Scouts must be compitent you don't just send average Joe to a potentially aggressive difficult to reach world. I am counting on the unfamilarity of Rosharan's to Scadrian weapons to give the scout a major edge. As both a Ferring and Misting he does have a bond with two Shards to begin with. After reviving the Shardblades he has a bond with multiple shards.

Sure speculate and write a scenerio where Heln figures out how to overcome the stormlight-spren restriction to reach Scadrial with a plausible reason why they do it (perhaps to scout a possible invasion). I would love to see it.

On 3/28/2021 at 1:36 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tbf, he does say "...but it's gonna take a roundabout method to make it happen...", so it's possible that could refer to that. (On the other hand, there are other things it could mean, so it's not a confirmation by any stretch.)

@BenduLuke Brandon's mentioned that godmetals pierce the Realms a bit. Presumably that's why. You cut the person Physically, and the sword passes through their other aspects too. (That's my theory on it, anyway.)

What I was saying is that the cutting identity of the shardblade (it is a blade) enables it to first cut the spiritual connection then it can cut everything else afterwards? Cutting only becomes part of their identity when they become a blade. If they are a Hammer, Shield, or Fork they don't have that part of their identity. Consider a shard scalpel would be great for cancer surgery as it could sever the spiritual connection of the cancer especially in the hands of Kal.

Note until the spiritual connection is severed the Shardblade doesn't cut physically or cognitively.

[Frustration]

56 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity appears to be the one thing you can store or tap that is permanent.

We have never seen aluminum used in Feruchemy so you can't say that, and both Copper and Nicrocil are on/off changes

57 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

What makes up Identity? It seems to me it would be personality, experience, training, talents, and skills up to that point in life With aluminum it is descibed as spiritual sense of Identity." This ability is not fully understood. The not fully understood is where there is allot of room to speculate so I do. I do think there is a cognitive aspect to it as well as a physical aspect. It is the identity that Spren bond to and over time and oaths the Radiant and Spren Identities complete each other or in other words partially merge. Any later bonds with that Spen will include some of that Identity.

Speculation isn't evidence and is both irrelivent and counterproductive to this discussion.

58 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I seem to remember that Navani had been storing pain for some time so when she inverted the painrial and used it on her attackers that is what disabled them. Same with the one she set up as a trap for the fused.

 the one she set for Raboniel hadn't been used, at least not for a long time, and besides what would it store the pain in?

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The Highspren that bonded Quicksilver felt he had a just reason to fight his previous Knight in defense of his world and felt he had a just desire to revive dead spren so accepted his bond. It made it easier that part of the Skybreakers Identity was now part of Quicksilver. Here is a quirky potential for aluminum. A person can store all the Identity. They are then a blank slate. If exposed to another Identity they could potentially be open to that and store it as well then tap the best parts of each Identity forming a new better Identity in the process. Over time through this Identity sifting process they could have Identities to use in any circumstance, but unlike forgers theirs are permanent until stored again. Nowhere does it say they can only store only their original Identity and Aluminum is as Brandon said weird and still not understood which I interpret to mean it may not operate like other metals. It almost seems like a potential God metal itself without a shard.

Again baseless speculation

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

How thick does it need to be to block a shardblade. Only as thick as one wall of a sword scabbard. That is against Nightblood perhaps the most powerful shardblade in the Cosmere. Nightblood didn't even chip it like he did to an honorblade.

Nightbloods sheath was made specifically for him, wether that means that he will react differently towards it than other aluminum is unclear

And on top of that most shardbearers rely almost solely on their blades sharpness and don't put a lot of force behind their attacks, Szeth included.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

In the current state it's possible that some on Scadrial know about Roshar and the potential for invasion at some time, but the opposite is not true. So sending agents to scout is an acceptable precaution. Almost all Skybreakers serve Odium so are most likely to be a Scadrian's Radiant opponent. Additionally the agents are equipped with general anti-magic gear according to their abilities. Quicksilver, if aluminum works the way I speculate, acquired intelligence from ancient Spren on what to expect so had a major information advantage. Rosharan's are not familiar with Scadrian weapons and don't see any red flags like glowing or shards that worry them until it is to late. The Scadrian's on the other hand are used to taking the attitude of threat until proven other wise.

Ok so first off, he just gets to take the spren's knowledge? That doesn't work.

And the only Scandrians aware fo Roshar at this time would be the Ghostbloods, and they don't seem overly intrested in telling Scadrial.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

No none of you need to accept my explanation or speculation, but with all the hand waving and open potentials still in the system rejecting my speculation out of hand because it doesn't fit your idea of how it works is also disingenuous. In other words when you say it doesn't work that way when things haven't been fully explained it feels like an insult to me, and until recently I feel I have been very patient with the condescending tones of many of those who respond to me.

Even you admit you could be wrong, so it isn't a solid enough argument for us to actually work with, it's a nice thought but it doesn't get us anywhere, we will only work with the facts as otherwise we will literally be here forever.

And please stop pretending you are the victim here, you are far from the only one exerting large amouts of self-control.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

So you don't think it is the cutting identity of a blade that allows for spiritual cutting? When spren become hammers, shields or forks they don't cut the spirit web or spirit connection of the part. Identity is a cross realm attribute inherent in all semi-sentient or living things.

The fork went throught the plate and the table, as for why sheilds and hammer's don't cut, it's the same reason metal ones don't, there isn't a cutting edge.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Wax isn't the only marksman so choosing a marksman as a scout would be a good idea. He certainly would become more virtuous as he made oaths to Revive the Spren. Scouts must be compitent you don't just send average Joe to a potentially aggressive difficult to reach world. I am counting on the unfamilarity of Rosharan's to Scadrian weapons to give the scout a major edge. As both a Ferring and Misting he does have a bond with two Shards to begin with. After reviving the Shardblades he has a bond with multiple shards.

Shooting someone in the eye from ten paces with less than a second to aim is inhuman.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Sure speculate and write a scenerio where Heln figures out how to overcome the stormlight-spren restriction to reach Scadrial with a plausible reason why they do it (perhaps to scout a possible invasion). I would love to see it.

We have already seen Radiants leave Roshar, we have not seen Aluminum feruchemy

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Note until the spiritual connection is severed the Shardblade doesn't cut physically or cognitively.

Everything has a spiritual acspect but non-living things get cut the first time.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

and both Copper and Nicrocil are on/off changes

(Note that the WoB here, if it's what I'm thinking of, was specifically about medallions, which explicitly do not work like the normal way to use nicrosil Feruchemy, and are "more restrictive".)

Edited March 31, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration]

24 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

(Note that the WoB here, if it's what I'm thinking of, was specifically about medallions, which explicitly do not work like the normal way to use nicrosil Feruchemy, and are "more restrictive".)

I'm refering to this WoB

Spoiler

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

I belive you are refering to this one?

Spoiler

Calderis

Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? 

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

I think the difference would be that a ferring could store kinetic investiture, but that's just me.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

21 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I'm refering to this WoB

  Hide contents

Pagerunner

When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question! Like a coppermind.

General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018)

 

I belive you are refering to this one?

  Hide contents

Calderis

Does the nicrosil portion of the medallions function identitically to how a Soulbearer Ferring would use Nicrosil? 

Brandon Sanderson

Not exactly. The medallion is a little more restrictive, for one thing.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 31, 2018)

I think the difference would be that a ferring could store kinetic investiture, but that's just me.

I've usually just interpreted that as "nicrosil behaves like pretty much everything else besides copper (which is what we see with the Bands), medallions are weird". Especially because we never actually see anyone described as tapping a medallion, they seem to just touch it and automatically gain the power.

[The Technovore]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Wax isn't the only marksman so choosing a marksman as a scout would be a good idea. He certainly would become more virtuous as he made oaths to Revive the Spren. Scouts must be compitent you don't just send average Joe to a potentially aggressive difficult to reach world. I am counting on the unfamilarity of Rosharan's to Scadrian weapons to give the scout a major edge. As both a Ferring and Misting he does have a bond with two Shards to begin with. After reviving the Shardblades he has a bond with multiple shards.

Sure speculate and write a scenerio where Heln figures out how to overcome the stormlight-spren restriction to reach Scadrial with a plausible reason why they do it (perhaps to scout a possible invasion). I would love to see it.

I--*inhale* *exhale*, my suspension of disbelief would allow for someone with the ability of Wax, or of Kelsier, or of Jasnah, and being the servant of a Shard. Quicksilver seems to have the powers of all of them. That's hard to believe. That's a protagonist, right there. I was under the impression that we weren't supposed to be using protagonists as prime examples of magic system capabilities. How would Quicksilver fare against Oath 4 Kaladin?

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

How thick does it need to be to block a shardblade. Only as thick as one wall of a sword scabbard. That is against Nightblood perhaps the most powerful shardblade in the Cosmere. Nightblood didn't even chip it like he did to an honorblade.

The scabbard fits the sword perfectly--it's shard enough to be an effective sword on it's own. Nightblood's scabbard is specially made for nightblood, and the tightness of the scabbard means that nightblood doesn't hit the scabbard with momentum and weight, like it did for the rage-fueled swing at the Honorblade. "How thick does it need to be able to block a shardblade." Not stupidly thick, but it will chip, and bend, and deform, and break under sufficient physical force. Like that behind a hammer swing.

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

This ability is not fully understood. The not fully understood is where there is allot of room to speculate so I do.

Like @Frustration said, just grabbing up any room for interpretation and using it as liberally as possible is both counterintuitive and disingenuous. Do you see us talking about how they could make plate as thick as they wanted because all they need is more spren so they could make entire sprentanks? Do you see us theorizing that you could use Gravitation to outperform any other siege artillery by miles, short of railguns? (which, by the way, @therunner ran the math on that in another thread. They make trebuchets look like weenies.) Do you see us talking about Division just melting all Scadrian Armies or using Anti-Light to kill Harmony or using Connection-y Bondsmith Powers to turn windspren into honorspren, or to steal Metalborn abilities? All of that (exception of one that actually has some mathematical backing) would be dishonest of us because this is a discussion about what we know that each magic system can do based on the evidence that is released up to now. 

We know that Radiants will be able to leave Roshar and take their spren with them. This requires a changing of the spren spiritweb to no longer be connected to Roshar, which would require something happening with the Shard of Honor and likely its perpendicularity. I can speculate that Dalinar will win the Contest of Champions by ascending to the Shard of Honor. Shortly after doing this he kills Odium and takes up that Shard as well, forming the Shard of War (or Conquest). He'll believe that he can temper Odium's Intent, but quickly falls to it. Then he'll turn his sights on Scadrial, and, realizing that they also have a DiShard and their agents are on Roshar, he'll begin making preparations to de-invest his Shard from Roshar, which will allow his Radiants to cross the CR to Scadrial. Since he has incredible Shardic knowledge, he'll inspire the scholars at Urithiru and bring to Rosharans guns, armor, tanks, better flying airships, and knowledge on how to use the surges and fabrials to out-tech Scadrial. War moves into the Scadrian system and punches a hole through the CR in the middle of Elendel. His Skybreakers and Dustbringers flood out and turn the city to ash. Since Harmony was under pressure from its conflicting Intent and from Trell, he can do very little to stop War except by Snapping as many metalborn as possible. Unfortunately for every metalborn he snaps, another thousand Scadrians die to the blitzkrieg of Skybreakers tearing apart every military and economic asset they have. Then through War's perpendicularity emerges the proper Rosharan army. The infantry, loaded with guns, Anti-Light grenades, and Shardblades made from the dead Voidspren that War killed when he took up Odium. They destroy NorScad within a week, and begin invading SoScad, their surges leaving scorched earth in their wake. When War shows his Radiants how they can use surges to split the atom, fire lasers, cleave the earth in two, and cause tectonic instability on a grand scale, they can turn Scadrial into the new Ashyn at their whim.

Did any of that make sense, given what we know? Probably not. I expect everyone here to tear it apart. But hey, there's a lot we don't understand about realmatics. Can anyone actually prove me wrong? Do you see the problem? If we're just going to speculate as much as possible, this is going to turn into a couple of five-year-olds' "imagination duel" where one goes "I shoot you with my death star!" and the other goes "nuh-uh! I have a force field tha--that blows up death stars!" Speculation and imagination is fun, but there needs to be more reasonable limits or this won't go anywhere. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by The Technovore
some edits to drive the point home.

[therunner]

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Identity appears to be the one thing you can store or tap that is permanent.

[citation needed]. Since storing it is described in degrees, that in fact suggests that it does not work like copper (or potentially) nicrosil, in being something discrete to be taken or stored. And if I remember correctly, even for tapping coppermind you need to be in contact with it, but here I am unsure.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

What makes up Identity? It seems to me it would be personality, experience, training, talents, and skills up to that point in life With aluminum it is descibed as spiritual sense of Identity." This ability is not fully understood. The not fully understood is where there is allot of room to speculate so I do. I do think there is a cognitive aspect to it as well as a physical aspect. It is the identity that Spren bond to and over time and oaths the Radiant and Spren Identities complete each other or in other words partially merge. Any later bonds with that Spen will include some of that Identity.

Spren bond to spiritweb. There is some relation between spiritweb, spiritual DNA, Identity, Connection and possibly Fortune (I am basing this one on Kal's talent with spear), but that does not make them interchangeable.

Either way, to even make claim you could access the dead radiants identity, you would need to first initiate the bond yourself, so that the spiritwebs merge with the spren so that its identity merges with yours. And even this has the issue that after first oath the bond can be easily broken without any ill effects, suggesting that spiritwebs are not connected much. I could maybe see this if someone with Aluminum had reached fifth oath with deadblade, but I would still see it as very unlikely.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Per coppermind Aluminum-A purifies the spirit of injury. "an Allomantic savant with aluminum, it may be possible to cleanse their spirit of unwanted effects of Investiture."

Per the quote you quoted it does not purify spirit of injury, it "may be possible to cleanse spirit of unwanted effects of investiture". So, only spirit may be cleansed, and only if the effect was caused by Investiture which got into their spiritweb.

This might be distinction without difference, but it suggests that if you damage the spiritweb without using Investiture directly, the effect might not be removable by Aluminum. And savantism carries downsides as well, so becoming savant to be able to heal spiritual wounds caused by investiture may not be a smart idea, depending on what the downsides of savantim are.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I seem to remember that Navani had been storing pain for some time so when she inverted the painrial and used it on her attackers that is what disabled them. Same with the one she set up as a trap for the fused.

In neither case anything in the books suggests charge is needed. And as @Frustration stated, those used in RoW were only in storage, possibly freshly build. If they required some charge Navani would worry about that, yet she does not and just grabs some. Everything in the books suggests that painrials simply magnify whatever feelings are there, sort of like Rioting physical sensations, no storage required.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The Highspren that bonded Quicksilver felt he had a just reason to fight his previous Knight in defense of his world and felt he had a just desire to revive dead spren so accepted his bond. It made it easier that part of the Skybreakers Identity was now part of Quicksilver. Here is a quirky potential for aluminum. A person can store all the Identity. They are then a blank slate. If exposed to another Identity they could potentially be open to that and store it as well then tap the best parts of each Identity forming a new better Identity in the process. Over time through this Identity sifting process they could have Identities to use in any circumstance, but unlike forgers theirs are permanent until stored again. Nowhere does it say they can only store only their original Identity and Aluminum is as Brandon said weird and still not understood which I interpret to mean it may not operate like other metals. It almost seems like a potential God metal itself without a shard.

'Just' reason to fight on a recon mission on another world (so illegal immigrant at best) against someone who does not even know (per your other comments) that Scadrial is a thing? How is proactive violence against someone who wages no war against you and yours nor prepares for one, and who in fact does not even know you exist (again per your other comments), how is that 'just'? You imply that Rosharan has no knowledge of Scadrian weapon, and in fact has little reason to suspect anyone without light is dangerous, so why would a fight against someone who clearly has no clue Scadrial is a thing, or any intentions to attack it, be justified? Either

1. Roshar is actively preparing for war with Scadrial, which would imply that they have at least some information about it and its capabilities, then Agents actions could be called 'just' but he would lose his information advantage and Rosharan would most likely be prepared for a fight with someone with guns (so visor down -> no headshot kill -> agent dead in this scenario).
2. Roshar is not actively preparing for war with Scadrial and has not information about it, then your Agents actions are not 'just' by any meaning of the word, as he simply murdered someone without any reason other than proactive violence against Roshar.

One of the things we do know about F-Aluminum, is that when you are storing Identity, you are more susceptible to Forgery. So whlie the Agents is storing they are more susceptible to Spiritual attacks, in principle someone could quite easily overwrite their Identity forcibly when they are storing completely.

Also, nothing suggests you can tap/store only some parts of Identity, you cannot tap/store only upper body strength for example.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

How thick does it need to be to block a shardblade. Only as thick as one wall of a sword scabbard. That is against Nightblood perhaps the most powerful shardblade in the Cosmere. Nightblood didn't even chip it like he did to an honorblade.

Thicker than one wall of scabbard. Resting an edge against surface is quite different from hitting the surface with any force. I can rest an axe against a log of wood without it going clean through, but if I put any force into the axe it will go through easily.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

In the current state it's possible that some on Scadrial know about Roshar and the potential for invasion at some time, but the opposite is not true. So sending agents to scout is an acceptable precaution. Almost all Skybreakers serve Odium so are most likely to be a Scadrian's Radiant opponent. Additionally the agents are equipped with general anti-magic gear according to their abilities. Quicksilver, if aluminum works the way I speculate, acquired intelligence from ancient Spren on what to expect so had a major information advantage. Rosharan's are not familiar with Scadrian weapons and don't see any red flags like glowing or shards that worry them until it is to late. The Scadrian's on the other hand are used to taking the attitude of threat until proven other wise.

In the current time the only Scadrians that now anything about Roshar are those involved with Ghostbloods. (and those wild Feruchemists that keep appearing), from what we know. Set seems to have some knowledge of extraplanetary things, but we do not know how much info is Trell sharing.

Conversely, Roshar has easy access to Cognitive realm, their leadership now knows about other planets (Nalthis, Taldain, Scadrial if I remember correctly) and the spren society seems to be quite involved with worldhoppers (paintings from Nalthis for sale, silver chains from Threnody, etc.). Since we know that there was interplanetary trade though Pits of Hathsin, it should be easy for any spy to learn about Scadrial, Allomancy and Feruchemy from the spren or worldhoppers, even if only to Era 1 level of knowledge. This would still prepare them to fight Mistborn/Feruchemists and to assume that small propelled objects fired from seemingly nowhere can be very dangerous.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

No none of you need to accept my explanation or speculation, but with all the hand waving and open potentials still in the system rejecting my speculation out of hand because it doesn't fit your idea of how it works is also disingenuous. In other words when you say it doesn't work that way when things haven't been fully explained it feels like an insult to me, and until recently I feel I have been very patient with the condescending tones of many of those who respond to me.

The problem with that, from my perspective, is that when we are comparing speculation to speculation, then only sky is the limit.

For example, up until RoW no one had any reason to suspect that stealing a bond (or any connection manipulation really) for unchained Bondsmith is as easy as reaching out and and moving connection lines. Or that they could drain away Radiants stormlight by connecting them to ground. What if they could simply take over the connection to Preservation when allomancer burns the metal, so that it is now the Bondsmith who gets the benefit of the metal burning? Or just simply move that connection to ground to remove the Investiture from Mistborn like Ishar did to Radiants? Or move the connection lines from metal to mistborn to themselves?

In principle all of the above proposals are not that large extrapolation of Bondsmith powers, but I still feel that they are dishonest in this discussion. As pure speculation? Sure, why not. But when trying to compare two different worlds whose interaction we have not seen it makes more sense to me to stick to what we have seen, with maybe applying known effects to different goals then in-story characters have though so far (like making shardblade resistant armor from metalminds, semi-shardblades from metalminds, ettmetal weaponry, painrial mines etc.)

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Wax isn't the only marksman so choosing a marksman as a scout would be a good idea. He certainly would become more virtuous as he made oaths to Revive the Spren. Scouts must be compitent you don't just send average Joe to a potentially aggressive difficult to reach world. I am counting on the unfamilarity of Rosharan's to Scadrian weapons to give the scout a major edge. As both a Ferring and Misting he does have a bond with two Shards to begin with. After reviving the Shardblades he has a bond with multiple shards.

Wax is the marksmen on Scadrial, in future they will have comicbooks based on his exploits. There is a reason modern soldiers/agents/policemen are trained to target the body, as that is the easiest thing to target, like in the (in-)famous Mozambique Drill technique. Sure, training against shardbearers would take into account that  body shots will do nothing, but that does not change the fact that hitting just a head is a difficult thing to pull off in high pressure scenarios. Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.

And we are not talking about heads, but about eye slot in armor. Per quick google around, most medieval armor eye slits were in the 4-8mm range in total height, so for a shot from ~7m into the slot 7mm in height you need to have a gun barrel aligned to precision of 0.25mm,  and that is assuming 25cm long gun barrel. For concealed carry the ~10 cm barrels are usually used, giving you only 0.1mm tolerance on aiming.

That is beyond Olympic level performance, and life or dead situation are a bit more stressful than that, not to mention the Agent would not have time to assume ideal shooting position, nor time to calm his breaths, nor time to aim as he liked.

EDIT:  I am surprised that I did not think of this sooner, but most of the usually used bullets have diameter that is comparable to the height of the slot, with the smallest being 4mm. So now the shot needs to be even more precise, as the above calculation kinda assumed that the bullet is point object (which was sloppy of me). If the visor is 7mm and the bullet is 4mm, than the bullet can deviate only by 1.5mm to either up or down to go through cleanly, in numbers (assuming the 10cm barrel of concealed carry gun) that is allowed deviation from the perfect hand position of 0.042mm roughly the width of 3 human hairs. But if the bullet is equally sized, than they need to pull of pretty much perfect shot, and if the bullet is larger than no luck.

If you are counting on Rosharans unfamiliarity does that mean you acknowledge that without knowledge advantage twin aluminum scadrian does not stand much chance?

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Sure speculate and write a scenerio where Heln figures out how to overcome the stormlight-spren restriction to reach Scadrial with a plausible reason why they do it (perhaps to scout a possible invasion). I would love to see it.

No need, per

Spoiler

Sixth of the Dusk sequel we know that -light-spren restriction can be overcome and they can use -light and sprenblades and shardplates in other star systems.

so getting agent to Scadrial is not speculative (outside of if they can figure it out this soon) and their reason could be just a recon just like yours. Conversely, how could the Scadrian get to Roshar without anyone noticing is another question entirely, as Scadrian would have to use perpendicularity to travel and Shadesmar is quite populated and now in contact with Rosharans.

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

What I was saying is that the cutting identity of the shardblade (it is a blade) enables it to first cut the spiritual connection then it can cut everything else afterwards? Cutting only becomes part of their identity when they become a blade. If they are a Hammer, Shield, or Fork they don't have that part of their identity. Consider a shard scalpel would be great for cancer surgery as it could sever the spiritual connection of the cancer especially in the hands of Kal.

Note until the spiritual connection is severed the Shardblade doesn't cut physically or cognitively.

Shardfork still cut (or stabbed more precisely) anything in its path with ease. So it seems that all you need to take advantage of the cutting aspect of spren-whatever is edge, or a tip.

Whether shardblades cut cognitive only after spiritual is not known as far as I am aware. In fact I mostly red it that the shardblade cuts on spiritual and cognitive (where applicable) level first, and the second cut is only on the physical realm. But admittedly, I do not know.

20 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

And Steel is a good material for a sword to be made out of to begin with, so it works automatically. I wonder if Brandon planned that for easy invested weapons...

Yeah, that store Iron reforge into sword would be quite nice trick. I think it was a bit of an accident (if he had attributes the other way around it would not work), but very happy one, maybe I am underestimating Brandon here.

 

Quote

I can speculate that Dalinar will win the Contest of Champions by ascending to the Shard of Honor. Shortly after doing this he kills Odium and takes up that Shard as well, forming the Shard of War (or Conquest). He'll believe that he can temper Odium's Intent, but quickly falls to it. Then he'll turn his sights on Scadrial, and, realizing that they also have a DiShard and their agents are on Roshar, he'll begin making preparations to de-invest his Shard from Roshar, which will allow his Radiants to cross the CR to Scadrial. Since he has incredible Shardic knowledge, he'll inspire the scholars at Urithiru and bring to Rosharans guns, armor, tanks, better flying airships, and knowledge on how to use the surges and fabrials to out-tech Scadrial. War moves into the Scadrian system and punches a hole through the CR in the middle of Elendel. His Skybreakers and Dustbringers flood out and turn the city to ash. Since Harmony was under pressure from its conflicting Intent and from Trell, he can do very little to stop War except by Snapping as many metalborn as possible. Unfortunately for every metalborn he snaps, another thousand Scadrians die to the blitzkrieg of Skybreakers tearing apart every military and economic asset they have. Then through War's perpendicularity emerges the proper Rosharan army. The infantry, loaded with guns, Anti-Light grenades, and Shardblades made from the dead Voidspren that War killed when he took up Odium. They destroy NorScad within a week, and begin invading SoScad, their surges leaving scorched earth in their wake. When War shows his Radiants how they can use surges to split the atom, fire lasers, cleave the earth in two, and cause tectonic instability on a grand scale, they can turn Scadrial into the new Ashyn at their whim.

Did any of that make sense, given what we know? Probably not. I expect everyone here to tear it apart.

@The Technovore This challenge is accepted. (in good spirits of course )

1. I do not think we have ever seen direct shardic action, except against other shards (Elend fueled with Preservation vs Marsh powered by Ruin directly). So no sharing of knowledge (although this might be okay) and no punching of hole from CR in the middle of Elendel. However Elsecaller could quickly take Bondsmith to the Elendel who would then open the perpendicularity.
2. Harmony might well splinter under such pressures to give way to Discord, which might in some ways be more dangerous to the Rosharans or be inclined to join with War (War and Discord sounds like sure friends).
3. Also Harmony might produce Lerasium (or tell how to extract if from ettmetal) and give it to Feruchemists to create at least 12 Fullborn (we have seen only 12 beads I think, so I take that as soft upper bound), who with at least some preparation (few days) should be able to ruin quite a few Radiants and general Rosharans armies. In fact I think only a bondsmith unchained could stand against just one of them.
4. Kelsier would involve himself, and he might be fullborn-like at this point.
5. I do not think voidspren would leave deadblades behind, only bonded Higher spren (of at least 3rd oath) leave behind blades.
6. Division would not be able to split atom (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/122/#e3308) .
7. Having knowledge of lasers and communicating it well enough for Rosharans to understand might not be so easy, lasers are much more than just a bright source of light, so you would need them to understand that 1) light is waves 2) light is also not waves 3) light must be produced to be space and time coherent .

Edited March 31, 2021 by therunner
The last quote and reaction added, one last thought