Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming that they can use Division while they are being Leached. As Radiants can't summon their Blade if it isn't already summoned, I doubt they can use a Surge if it isn't already active. Even if they are burning the air around them, that means the Radiant is both using up their Stormlight to keep the air around them on fire and to keep them from needing to breath burning through their Stormlight even faster.

Fair point.

24 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Where do you get Abrasion making them impervious?

Again, where are you getting the idea that Abrasion makes them impervious? Progression would be handled the same way as any other Radiant with healing, make them use up their Stormlight

Lift says that even the wind doesn't seem to touch her, I take that to mena that any physical attack will slide right off. Progression healed Renarin in ways that normal stormligh

25 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And? Stone defenses will just prolong the fight and the longer the fight goes on the better it will be for the Mistborn

Same defense problem and extra strength isn't very useful already

true but they can also sink their legs into the ground if they land, which is rather helpful when they have a stone roof over theiir head protecting them from coins.

[BenduLuke]

19 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

If mistborn can have Raysium, Radiants can have Honorblades. Infinate Stormlight from Ishar!

 

Raysium acts allot like feruchemical/hemalurgic Nicrosil so Mistborn may already have it or its equivalent. As for honorblades in a fight with Radiants anyone might have honorblades even the mistborn. Then again if it is not taking place on Roshar no stormlight. No one not even Ishar can hold a perpendicularity open indefinitely.

Honestly I still think that in a fight between Mistborn and Radian the winner would be situational and in most situations the Mistborn has the advantage only on Roshar does the Radiant potentially have the upper hand.

Let me restate. Just because one side has access to specific Items doesn't mean the other side couldn't use those Items as well. In a fight anywhere the Mistborn have the advantage of more ways to use metal than Radiants, but the bond that Radiants have with Spren is not even unlikely for Mistborn and is certainly far more likely than Snaping for the Radiant.

[BenduLuke]

20 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

I've sided with Mistborn so far, but I've gotta agree with @Ookla The Frustrated here. If we start allowing the use of God metals and various magic from other systems than the combatant's home, the use of some kind of Ruin-Light, presuming that Lights are similar to God metals in that they exist for all Shards, could probably suppress Allomancy (although the details of that are pretty blurry, still not entirely sure how Voidlight specifically suppresses Radiants and Towerlight specifically suppresses the Fused, maybe it has to do with Intent as they're currently fighting each other? In which case Autonomy-Light, assuming that Trell is Autonomy, might be more appropriate?). Aluminum darts probably wouldn't penetrate Shardplate, but aluminum bullets might not be a bad idea, assuming they suppress Radiant healing the same way they suppress Feruchemical gold.

EDIT: I wrote this before @Ookla The Frustrated's most recent reply, see below for my response to it.

So far the only abilites and metals I have discussed occur on either Scadrial or Roshar and in a contest between Radiants and Mistborn the use of all available resources should be assumed. Initially Mistborn should be able to use their abilities and Tactics on Roshar bit the inverse is not necessarily true until they can find a substitute for stormlight.

It wasn't void light that suppressed Radiant abilities but the use of Void light corrupting the sibling who can suppress invested abilities or void spren in a Fabrial to mimic the siblings ability. In addition Mistborn may operate on a frequency that would require experimentation to suppress and we know that allomancy is also not on just one frequency as Bronze can tell the difference between allomantic pulses so there may not be a one fabrial blocks all.

Aluminum darts or discs may well do better than bullets depending on the momentum behind them and the point or edge on them. Bullets tend to be blunt so with roughly equivalent momentum the smaller edge/point win as far as penetration. Shard pierced by Aluminum might simply dissolve because the investiture/Stormlight has been nullified and in the case of a windrunner their gravity surges might also be disrupted if pierced by aluminum since it is unaffected by gravity surges just like metal pushes.

[BenduLuke]

20 hours ago, StanLemon said:

One other consideration, Electrum, while not as good as Atium would still be very useful for defense. A mistborn could see whenever they are about to be hit with something and maneuver to avoid. Not as all encompassing of a defense but would make it very difficult for a Radiant to hit them. My biggest issue with this argument is the belief that Radiants are the end all be all. Would confrontations between a 4th Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with all 16 metals more often than not favor the Radiant? Sure. But that doesn't mean Radiants always win or even win an astronomical amount of the time. No Order other than Windrunners can Skybreakers compete with a Mistborn's mobility. Mistborn ranged attacks aren't limited to coins, as proven very well by Kelsier. Other than Atium, a Mistborn will keep going far longer with their Investiture than a Radiant (with the possible exception of Bondsmiths assuming Dalinar is not unique). And Chromium is exceptionally dangerous to a Radiant. If the Mistborn manages to disarm the Radiant thus dismissing the Shardblade and grab the Radiant, the Radiant can't summon their Blade per WoB. Hell, a Mistborn could theoretically burn both Nicrosil and Chromium at the same time causing whatever Investiture that isn't drained by the Chromium to be wasted by the Nicroburst. While not flashy, a Mistborn would very much be capable of dragging out the combat until the Radiant uses up all their Stormlight, then it would just be a matter of hitting the Plate until it breaks. What a Mistborn lacks in raw power they make up with versitility.

Do the odds favor Radiants? Yes but it is by no means one sided.

I agree if the battle takes place on Roshar and the Mistborn doesn't also bond a Spren, but on Scadrial the Radiant would be at a disadvantage except perhaps in the mists if they realized it could provide investiture.

[BenduLuke]

18 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I've read many of these arguments that favor Mistborn over Radiant and they all look the same as before Kaladin got his upgrade.  Many of the scenarios presented that have the Mistborn winning requires the Radiant to be stupid or unwilling to use their entire power set or just lacking offensive capabilities in general.  They require the Mistborn to have access to all 16 metals plus unlimited Atium plus a sniper rifle full of aluminum bullets and a tank for support.  I don't find many of the arguments to be realistic. From my interpretation of the text there are ways for a Mistborn to win without going to extremes, they're just less abundant than the ways a Radiant has.

In a fight between Mistborn and Radiants the metalborn have one distinct advantage,  Atium.  They aren't stronger than a Radiant in plate, they aren't faster. They're less maneuverable than a Windrunner/ Skybreaker, pewter makes them somewhat durable but they cannot heal from mortal wounds. Their natural range attacks are ineffective against live plate, only marginally effective vs dead plate. Their abilities are most suited to taking an opponent unaware,  not standing against opponents that can take punishment.  Atium is the only tool in their arsenal that can be used to instantly kill a Radiant,  and one must be really close to use it effectively. 

On the other side of the ledger are Radiants,  presumably of the 4th Ideal.  Not all Radiants are combat oriented but at their base these guys and gals have Shardblade that cannot be manipulated allomantically and can morph into any weapon at the speed of thought.  They have armor that makes them stronger and faster than any pewter burner.  If someone breaks through that plate they can heal from nearly any wound provided they have fuel to do so. Without even counting their individual skills or surges, the most inept of them can make short work of nearly all other magic users in the Cosmere. And unlike guns or allomantic grenades or explosives,  their blade and armor cannot be dropped and used by their opponents.  Add in surges with area effects and it becomes no contest.  How is Atium going to account for somebody like Jasnah,  who just recently torched a battlefield and walked through it unscathed? 

I've long stated even before the upgrade that Radiant beats Mistborn more often than not. With what little we've seen from the capacity of Living Plate and the Mistborn chances are  near zero.  You wanna kill a Radiant in a 1 v 1 battle? Use a Fullborn. If you must use a Mistborn,  the most effective way is through deception. If you cannot do that then you stay out of range and spend a long time trying to make it through defenses and dodging attacks.

You could be right (none of my arguments use atium) but there are some caveats such as if the battle takes place on Roshar and the Mistborn not misting has just arrived a Radiant definitely has the advantage. On Scadrial the scale tips far to the other side even with some mistings, ferings, and twinborn. With investiture affecting metals like Aluminum, Nicrosil, and Raysium in a mistborn's arsenal the initial ranged advantage would be substantial. (Aluminum would need to bonded/welded to some other metal). Even without God metals a full Mistborn has a decent chance on either planet. For example there is a chance that a copper cloud could disrupt radiant surges just like it disrupts discovery. It may even be possible that it could have the dampening affect of the sibling on surges.

[Frustration]

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

So far the only abilites and metals I have discussed occur on either Scadrial or Roshar and in a contest between Radiants and Mistborn the use of all available resources should be assumed. Initially Mistborn should be able to use their abilities and Tactics on Roshar bit the inverse is not necessarily true until they can find a substitute for stormlight.

Raysium is from Braize and is a closely guarded possesion of Odium and the Fused, they wouldn't let some rando walk in and take it. And Raysium has to penetrate the skin in order to drain stormlight, so it would have to crack plate in order to drain it.

23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It wasn't void light that suppressed Radiant abilities but the use of Void light corrupting the sibling who can suppress invested abilities or void spren in a Fabrial to mimic the siblings ability. In addition Mistborn may operate on a frequency that would require experimentation to suppress and we know that allomancy is also not on just one frequency as Bronze can tell the difference between allomantic pulses so there may not be a one fabrial blocks all.

There are ten surges, and they got supressed by one fabrial, no reason Allomancy isn't the same.

24 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum darts or discs may well do better than bullets depending on the momentum behind them and the point or edge on them. Bullets tend to be blunt so with roughly equivalent momentum the smaller edge/point win as far as penetration. Shard pierced by Aluminum might simply dissolve because the investiture/Stormlight has been nullified and in the case of a windrunner their gravity surges might also be disrupted if pierced by aluminum since it is unaffected by gravity surges just like metal pushes.

Alluminum isn't that dissruptive, otherwise Nightblood and the Lift fabrials would be completly useless.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You could be right (none of my arguments use atium) but there are some caveats such as if the battle takes place on Roshar and the Mistborn not misting has just arrived a Radiant definitely has the advantage. On Scadrial the scale tips far to the other side even with some mistings, ferings, and twinborn. With investiture affecting metals like Aluminum, Nicrosil, and Raysium in a mistborn's arsenal the initial ranged advantage would be substantial. (Aluminum would need to bonded/welded to some other metal). Even without God metals a full Mistborn has a decent chance on either planet. For example there is a chance that a copper cloud could disrupt radiant surges just like it disrupts discovery. It may even be possible that it could have the dampening affect of the sibling on surges.

Are you seriously implying that standard copper is on par with a godspren?

 

Also posting multiple times in a row is generally frowned upon by the community.

[BenduLuke]

18 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

By Order

Windrunners: Mistborn have no advantage here, and they're only hope is to somehow pull off a Chromium strike

Skybeakers: Same as Windrunners but with the added bonus of if a Mistborn tries a Chromium touch, you can use division to burn their hand off.

Dustbringers: can use abrasion to make themselves impervious to attack, while hitting back just as hard as before, and having division.

Edgedanncers: can heal from anything, grow defences, and become impervious.

Truthwatchers: use illusions and survive anything

Lightweavers, soulcasting

Elsecallers: Can soulcast from cognitive realm, no win for Mistborn at all.

Willshapers: Craft defences from stone

Stonewards: increased strength from Tension, building defences

Bondsmith: Infinate Stormlight, No win.  

Radiant gets caught in metal weighted aluminum net by Mistborn and gets pounded physically, mentally, and emotionalally until they run out of stormlight and die or surrender. All surges are contained by Aluminum. Shardblade can't cut it. Several metals remove investiture so healing and other abilities are gone quick. Doesn't matter the order only the successful attack. And the attack can be accomplished from a distance with the full Mistborn aware of where their opponent is at all times without seeing them.

[Lemiltock]

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Radiant gets caught in metal weighted aluminum net by Mistborn and gets pounded physically, mentally, and emotionalally until they run out of stormlight and die or surrender. All surges are contained by Aluminum. Shardblade can't cut it. Several metals remove investiture so healing and other abilities are gone quick. Doesn't matter the order only the successful attack. And the attack can be accomplished from a distance with the full Mistborn aware of where their opponent is at all times without seeing them.

You mean a super light metal like alluminum, and they cant throw it off? Alumimium blocks investiture it doesnt cancel it, so the radiant is still surounded by heabily invested armour that blocks emotional allomancy and most physical damange. And a shard blade most certainly can cut alluminium, just not as easily as otherthings. Not to meantion how unwieldy an alluminium net would be to carry/thrown and hitting a fast moving radiant with a net before the mistborb eats a shardblade to the face is slim.

 

34 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

You could be right (none of my arguments use atium) but there are some caveats such as if the battle takes place on Roshar and the Mistborn not misting has just arrived a Radiant definitely has the advantage. On Scadrial the scale tips far to the other side even with some mistings, ferings, and twinborn. With investiture affecting metals like Aluminum, Nicrosil, and Raysium in a mistborn's arsenal the initial ranged advantage would be substantial. (Aluminum would need to bonded/welded to some other metal). Even without God metals a full Mistborn has a decent chance on either planet. For example there is a chance that a copper cloud could disrupt radiant surges just like it disrupts discovery. It may even be possible that it could have the dampening affect of the sibling on surges.

Location has little bearing on a fight where both have a set of their respective investiture. The most location really provides is anchors for the mistborn. Adding god metals then the radiant has lerisum and atium. Copper doesnt disrupt investiture, it hides it from bronze.

[Frustration]

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Radiant gets caught in metal weighted aluminum net by Mistborn and gets pounded physically, mentally, and emotionalally until they run out of stormlight and die or surrender. All surges are contained by Aluminum. Shardblade can't cut it. Several metals remove investiture so healing and other abilities are gone quick. Doesn't matter the order only the successful attack. And the attack can be accomplished from a distance with the full Mistborn aware of where their opponent is at all times without seeing them.

How does a MIstborn pick up a net heavy enough to hold down someone in Shardplate? The amount of alluminum you would need is astronomical.

Radiants might as well be immune to Emotional allomancy they are so invested. and hitting them through the net, won't do anything.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Lemiltock said:

You mean a super light metal like alluminum, and they cant throw it off? Alumimium blocks investiture it doesnt cancel it, so the radiant is still surounded by heabily invested armour that blocks emotional allomancy and most physical damange. And a shard blade most certainly can cut alluminium, just not as easily as otherthings. Not to meantion how unwieldy an alluminium net would be to carry/thrown and hitting a fast moving radiant with a net before the mistborb eats a shardblade to the face is slim.

 

Location has little bearing on a fight where both have a set of their respective investiture. The most location really provides is anchors for the mistborn. Adding god metals then the radiant has lerisum and atium. Copper doesnt disrupt investiture, it hides it from bronze.

Yes Aluminum woven or braided with some other metal like steel, might have the tensile strength to resist the edge of a shardblade and strength of plate. You would need to have some other metal in order to push/pull it.

Why does copper block the discovery of pulses? Since it blocks the discovery of pulses might it not also interfere with surges if flared or otherwise enhanced? Of course the Ideal would need to be compared with the enhancement just like with surge blocking.

Location has everything to do with the contest since it limits how to get fuel for investiture and metal is everywhere but stormlight isn't.

All I have been trying to say is that the outcome is not as cut and dried as many posts seem to assume for either Mistborn or Radiant.

One of the greatest things about Brandon's magic is that it has limits so finding the path to victory is what is always interesting to me.

[BenduLuke]

15 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

How does a MIstborn pick up a net heavy enough to hold down someone in Shardplate? The amount of alluminum you would need is astronomical.

Radiants might as well be immune to Emotional allomancy they are so invested. and hitting them through the net, won't do anything.

The net doesn't need to huge just enough to bind up the Radiant making it hard to get leverage to use the blade or strength and you already said that Aluminum is light. it also doesn't need to be a fine mesh so stabbing or shooting in from outside is not entirely limited. Aluminum though light is strong. A net also doesn't stop you from bashing someone into submission. Then it is just a matter of time before the stormlight runs out.

Both also have the potential to steal fuel from the other such as reverse lashing metal vials or flared enhanced metal push/pull gems (All gems have metal in them. topaz would be near impossible since its base metal is aluminum with some impurities).

No one said the combatants need to fight fair.

Oh and trying to decide a fight with the limits of each investiture is most of the fun for me. What could either do to beat the other in different circumstances. In reality unlimited stormlight means a perpendicularity or High Storm, and unlimited Allomancy means the mist though I suppose any would do for either. A perpendicularity might fuel allomancy and mist might fuel surges.

Sorry about the multiple posts I was trying to catch up with posts I missed yesterday and I have only just figured out how to fundamentally quote.

[Lemiltock]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes Aluminum woven or braided with some other metal like steel, might have the tensile strength to resist the edge of a shardblade and strength of plate. You would need to have some other metal in order to push/pull it.

So it can be pushed but not cut by a shardblade leaving only the aluminium which is not a very "strong" metal.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Why does copper block the discovery of pulses? Since it blocks the discovery of pulses might it not also interfere with surges if flared or otherwise enhanced? Of course the Ideal would need to be compared with the enhancement just like with surge blocking.

Why doesnt it then blanket block allomancy then? If it doesnt block allomancy it doesnt block surgebinding

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Location has everything to do with the contest since it limits how to get fuel for investiture and metal is everywhere but stormlight isn't.

In a fight where bith combatants already have their investiture it matter for nothing. If they need to refuel their dead, a mistborn csnt stop mid fight go to a foundary and get some steel. If one doesmt have access to investiture they are limited yes, but thats not what this thread is comparing. Could a mistborn with bags of metal beat a 4th oath radiant whk has no stormlight sure but thats not what the comparison is hence location doesnt matter.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

All I have been trying to say is that the outcome is not as cut and dried as many posts seem to assume for either Mistborn or Radiant.

Its super cut and dry for a 4th oath, you keep bringing up tenuous things to try and give it to the mistborn, all of which are by the mistborn trying to hailmary their way to victory, does that sound like the kind of strategy used by someone with the advantage?

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

One of the greatest things about Brandon's magic is that it has limits so finding the path to victory is what is always interesting to me.

Your ignoring the limits of allomancy significantly. A radiants powers where designed for combat a mistborns where designed for theives.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Both also have the potential to steal fuel from the other such as reverse lashing metal vials or flared enhanced metal push/pull gems (All gems have metal in them. topaz would be near impossible since its base metal is aluminum with some impurities).

Dude, no base Mistborn is anywhere near that strong.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The net doesn't need to huge just enough to bind up the Radiant making it hard to get leverage to use the blade or strength and you already said that Aluminum is light. it also doesn't need to be a fine mesh so stabbing or shooting in from outside is not entirely limited. Aluminum though light is strong. A net also doesn't stop you from bashing someone into submission. Then it is just a matter of time before the stormlight runs out.

Adolin almost crushed a steel cantein, on accident.

Aluminum stands no chance.

[Aspiring Writer]

I have long sense come to terms that Radients are more powerful than Mistborn. Maybe if I knew what powers a Mistborn could get with the other god metals and had access to those, I'd change my mind, but as WoR, they are way too weak when compared to Radients weaponry, armor, powers, and most importantly, healing. Really wish I could see a Mistborn like Hoid try and burn some Raysium.

@BenduLuke please realize that the only way you think they can win is if they can somehow trap the Radiant in a net probably worth more than a house and a lot of other means which are unlikely and manufactured to give the Mistborn a chance. I like Mistborn too, I would love if they were better, but the Radients beat them with raw power and healing. Now, if it was the TLR, then that would be a different story. He'd wreck them. And remember, any enemy restrained can be killed no matter how powerful. Even TLR would eventually die if he was successfully restrained and repeatedly stabbed.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[BenduLuke]

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Dude, no base Mistborn is anywhere near that strong.

Adolin almost crushed a steel cantein, on accident.

Aluminum stands no chance.

Whose talking about a base mistborn? A duralimum flared steel push might do the Job and I think flared Chromium an all at once alomantic steel push maybe even more likely. Vin when flared was able to rip the invested metal minds from the Lord Ruler something that is near impossible even on a normal Feruchemist.

Aluminum is strong and if it were braided like a rope it is much stronger and immune to the magical cutting power of shard blades. Without momentum braided aluminum cord would be very difficult to break.

Crushing a hollow metal container is not the same as breaking a woven metal cable/cord.

Aluminum has been shown to block surges completely if it surrounds a fabrial and with partial enclosure it limits the surge to the open side.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Whose talking about a base mistborn? A duralimum flared steel push might do the Job and I think flared Chromium an all at once alomantic steel push maybe even more likely. Vin when flared was able to rip the invested metal minds from the Lord Ruler something that is near impossible even on a normal Feruchemist.

Aluminum is strong and if it were braided like a rope it is much stronger and immune to the magical cutting power of shard blades. Without momentum braided aluminum cord would be very difficult to break.

Crushing a hollow metal container is not the same as breaking a woven metal cable/cord.

Aluminum has been shown to block surges completely if it surrounds a fabrial and with partial enclosure it limits the surge to the open side.

Pretty sure Vin was inhaling the power of a god when she ripped those bands of, and not what an actual Mistborn could do. Pretty sure TLR needed to do some weird compounding to let him do it.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Whose talking about a base mistborn? A duralimum flared steel push might do the Job and I think flared Chromium an all at once alomantic steel push maybe even more likely. Vin when flared was able to rip the invested metal minds from the Lord Ruler something that is near impossible even on a normal Feruchemist.

Vin was litterally drawing on the power that made allomancy work in the first place, that was not something a Mistborn could achieve without an insane amount of Lerasium.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum is strong and if it were braided like a rope it is much stronger and immune to the magical cutting power of shard blades. Without momentum braided aluminum cord would be very difficult to break.

More alluminum you add less lickly a Mistborn could lift it, anything they could lift, even with pewter isn't enough to inconvinience a Shardbearer.

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Aluminum has been shown to block surges completely if it surrounds a fabrial and with partial enclosure it limits the surge to the open side.

Yes, but it doesn't drain investiture, it is just innert, Shardplate still is able to apply immense force to it.

Edited December 10, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[BenduLuke]

10 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I have long sense come to terms that Radients are more powerful than Mistborn. Maybe if I knew what powers a Mistborn could get with the other god metals and had access to those, I'd change my mind, but as WoR, they are way too weak when compared to Radients weaponry, armor, powers, and most importantly, healing. Really wish I could see a Mistborn like Hoid try and burn some Raysium.

@BenduLuke please realize that the only way you think they can win is if they can somehow trap the Radiant in a net probably worth more than a house and a lot of other means which are unlikely and manufactured to give the Mistborn a chance. I like Mistborn too, I would love if they were better, but the Radients beat them with raw power and healing. Now, if it was the TLR, then that would be a different story. He'd wreck them. And remember, any enemy restrained can be killed no matter how powerful. Even TLR would eventually die if he was successfully restrained and repeatedly stabbed.

I can concede that Radiants have raw power on their side, but winning a battle is not always about raw power. The net Idea is only one of the proposed ways I have stated (though probably the simplest) that a mistborn might beat a Radiant. You are right it would be expensive. Brandon has stated that aluminum will become more common going forward.

Windrunners have mobility to match or exceed metal born and may be able to use projectiles (multiple reverse lash a small hard object at the mistborn and you have a guided missle). Flared emotions might interfere with any Radiant's ability to fight even in shard plate.

Windrunner vs Mistborn would be a sight to see comparable to TLR vs Kelsior. TLR only loses if you get his metal minds like Vin did. Miles hundred lives was almost unkillable and he only had one compounded metal.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

I can concede that Radiants have raw power on their side, but winning a battle is not always about raw power. The net Idea is only one of the proposed ways I have stated (though probably the simplest) that a mistborn might beat a Radiant. You are right it would be expensive. Brandon has stated that aluminum will become more common going forward.

Windrunners have mobility to match or exceed metal born and may be able to use projectiles (multiple reverse lash a small hard object at the mistborn and you have a guided missle). Flared emotions might interfere with any Radiant's ability to fight even in shard plate.

Windrunner vs Mistborn would be a sight to see comparable to TLR vs Kelsior. TLR only loses if you get his metal minds like Vin did. Miles hundred lives was almost unkillable and he only had one compounded metal.

Yes, but again, an aluminum net isn't really in the Mistborn toolkit and seems like a big concession. Can a Mistborn beat a Radiant? Maybe. But we're asking in a striaght fight, and giving concessions to one side means that side is normally at a disadvantage and needs the help.

[BenduLuke]

12 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Vin was litterally drawing on the power that made allomancy work in the first place, that was not something a Mistborn could achieve without an insane amount of Lerasium.

More alluminum you add less lickly a Mistborn could lift it, anything they could lift, even with pewter isn't enough to inconvinience a Shardbearer.

Yes, but it doesn't drain investiture, it is just innert, Shardplate still is able to apply immense force to it.

Yeah Vin was drawing on the mist which I assume could replace stormlight to. Plus she was flareing with the mists potential duralimum effect (it seems to act as all metals at once).

Whether the radiant could break the cord has as much to do with momentum and leverage as it does to strength and while confined they would be vulnerable to assaults of all kinds draining stormlight in themselves and armor.

A wind runner or sky breaker caught high in mid air could take a nasty fall if caught in an aluminmum net since it does block gravity lashes.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

A wind runner or sky breaker caught high in mid air could take a nasty fall if caught in an aluminmum net since it does block gravity lashes.

You appear to misunderstand aluminum, Aluminum does not negate investiture, it is immune, big difference, touching a person with stormlight does not remove their stormlight, a rioter wearing aluminum can still riot, a Windrunner lashed up will still be pulled up, and plate weighs much more than aluminum.

[BenduLuke]

9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yes, but again, an aluminum net isn't really in the Mistborn toolkit and seems like a big concession. Can a Mistborn beat a Radiant? Maybe. But we're asking in a striaght fight, and giving concessions to one side means that side is normally at a disadvantage and needs the help.

That's just it every mistborn used every weapon they had at hand and full mistborn have allot of options and combinations in combat which are multiplied by any available weapons. If you opponent is stronger than you guerrilla combat and hit and run tactics are fair. The bronze awareness would give some advantage to any combat where the Mistborn could hide and strike from cover over and over again. Enhanced senses gives an advantage in low light situations. Ranged attacks of all kinds would initially give an advantage to Mistborn, but in the end I think windrunners could at least partially counter that with their own potential projectiles.

If you mean by a strait fight that a mistborn would fight like a radiant then yes they would lose. I saw a martial arts movie recently where the new student challenged his black belt master to one on one combat and they set up to fight when the student pulled a pistol and shot the master in the head because he knew he would lose hand to hand. There is no such thing as a strait fight. In a fight to the death if you don't cheat in whatever way possible you are not trying hard enough.

[Frustration]

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That's just it every mistborn used every weapon they had at hand and full mistborn have allot of options and combinations in combat which are multiplied by any available weapons. If you opponent is stronger than you guerrilla combat and hit and run tactics are fair. The bronze awareness would give some advantage to any combat where the Mistborn could hide and strike from cover over and over again. Enhanced senses gives an advantage in low light situations. Ranged attacks of all kinds would initially give an advantage to Mistborn, but in the end I think windrunners could at least partially counter that with their own potential projectiles.

If you mean by a strait fight that a mistborn would fight like a radiant then yes they would lose. I saw a martial arts movie recently where the new student challenged his black belt master to one on one combat and they set up to fight when the student pulled a pistol and shot the master in the head because he knew he would lose hand to hand. There is no such thing as a strait fight. In a fight to the death if you don't cheat in whatever way possible you are not trying hard enough.

Alright Hoid is fighting with the radiants so he comes in with Fullborn powers and wipes the floor with everything you through at him.

That's not fun is it?

We need a setup so we can accuratly measure the strength of our two combatants for their inevitable face off.And to prove Radiants are better.

[Lemiltock]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That's just it every mistborn used every weapon they had at hand and full mistborn have allot of options and combinations in combat which are multiplied by any available weapons.

That doesnt mean they can make weapoms theyve never used before, or that said weapon would be effective.

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If you opponent is stronger than you guerrilla combat and hit and run tactics are fair. The bronze awareness would give some advantage to any combat where the Mistborn could hide and strike from cover over and over again. Enhanced senses gives an advantage in low light situations. Ranged attacks of all kinds would initially give an advantage to Mistborn, but in the end I think windrunners could at least partially counter that with their own potential projectiles.

Hit and run wont work against shard plate, a radiant with stormlight and shardplatr moves faster than the mistborn, so the run doesnt work very well. Can the mistborn run and survive, maybe, but as soom as they engage in anyform of combat they lose.

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If you mean by a strait fight that a mistborn would fight like a radiant then yes they would lose. I saw a martial arts movie recently where the new student challenged his black belt master to one on one combat and they set up to fight when the student pulled a pistol and shot the master in the head because he knew he would lose hand to hand. There is no such thing as a strait fight. In a fight to the death if you don't cheat in whatever way possible you are not trying hard enough.

The only chance against a 4th oathr adiant a mistborn has is to sneak past a spren, and stab them between their impenetrable, invisible, always on plate.

[BenduLuke]

12 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

You appear to misunderstand aluminum, Aluminum does not negate investiture, it is immune, big difference, touching a person with stormlight does not remove their stormlight, a rioter wearing aluminum can still riot, a Windrunner lashed up will still be pulled up, and plate weighs much more than aluminum.

your right a pewter arm wearing aluminum is immune to the magic of a shardblade cutting him and he still has his strength which he can use, but a windrunner in aluminum can't use gravity or adhesion anywhere the aluminum is. Nor will any projected surge work in the direction of the aluminum, but I am not sure if a coin shot can still steel push in the direction  aluminum armor covers. Aluminum blocks lashings just like it blocks forgery.

You are also right that Aluminum alone wont remove stormlight without the radiant being pierced by it, but it can be used to handicap an opponent while stormlight is neutralize or removed some other way. There is also the possibility that being pierced by aluminum would neutralize stormlight just like it neutralizes metals when burned.

Are you sure a rioter can still riot or would the aluminum limit the direction that they can riot depending on where the aluminum is?