Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[XS-Terrain]

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Wax, for the most part, uses a speality weapon, firing specialty bullets and has incredible skill at both shooting and pushing bullets. Brandon also in WoB its said as possible, not that wax can just fire off a shot and it work, it also assumes hitting the target. Which a radiant can turn their shardblade into a shield and just run them down.

You're taking a lot of liberty here with the WoBs to try and make them conform to your position. Wax does use a specialty weapon, but the specialty of that weapon is that, along with 6 regular bullets, it can also chamber 3 specialty bullets. In the WoB, it's made pretty clear that one of these specialty bullets, fired into the right area, breaks the Shardplate. It's not a stretch to assume from there that his 2-3 bullet estimate then refers to the regular bullets.

Regarding the shield, I'm assuming here the spren has some limitation in terms of how big it can be and how thin it could be, as otherwise the Radiant could wrap themselves in the spren and just be completely invulnerable or create a spear of infinite length and stab another planet. The question then becomes "What size is the spren limited to?" From what we've seen, it doesn't seem like Syl ever becomes anything massive that could cover the entire body. Hitting that unconvered area would suffice. Maneurving around the Radiant with various Steelpushes and Ironpulls could also help to expose more area to hit.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

You mentioned a modern bolt action rifle, of the mistborn has just any gun, so can the radiant, also a radiant could have a similar gun, afterall they dont require magic to use. But in either case sprenblade becomes a shield, they run down the mistborn at inhumanly fast speeds while bairly burning through their resources and the mistborn needs to use everything to stay away. The bullets and coins shot csnt damage the shield and will barly scratch the exposed (no flat) pieces of plate and their range is nullified.

Regarding the bolt-action, the Lee Enfield that I mentioned was first introduced in the late 1800s IRL, which is similar to the current state of Scadrial. My original post was more to correct a lot of wrong assumptions about the power of guns, than to really compare Mistborn and Radiants. My point was that a gun could pretty easily break Shardplate. Whether our made-up scenario here should give either of the combatants guns or other weapons is another question entirely. My opinion is that, if the Mistborn has a gun and the Radiant doesn't, the Mistborn wins. If neither have a gun, it's much less clear, but I still fall on the side of the Mistborn due to ranged capability. If both have guns, that's where I percieve the Radiant to have the advantage, because their main weakness is range.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I disagree both have good mobility, but the mistborn requires anchors to push/pull  a radiant just has better than pewter constantly, live plate plus stormlight. They also have significantly more deffence and healling, a mistborn cant get hit at all, while a radiant cant tank several life threatening attacks. And again keeping that distance will be hard even if it mattered, because they cant get through live plate.

Regarding mobility, it obviously depends on the Order, as I mentioned earlier. The question I have for you is, how is the Mistborn going to get hit in the first place? None of the Orders, other than the Windrunners and Skybreakers, have even a chace at getting anywhere close to the Mistborn. Even if they do get close, does the Mistborn have Atium? If they do, then they're not gonna get hit no matter what. As for getting through Live Plate, that's once again just a question of "Do they have a gun?" If they do, a couple of shots should be enough. If not, it depends on how fast the Mistborn can get the coins to fly, which is something that we still really don't know. It must be slower than a gun, otherwise Era 2 Coinshots just wouldn't use guns. But it's still gotta be pretty fast, considering that a Steelpush is capable of quickly launching the Mistborn high into the air against gravity, and the coins weigh much less than the body.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

There are 4th iath skybreakers that arnt even named, wax/vin/kelsier/elend/kaladin etc etc are more skilled than a normal non named person. The oaths are also less about skill and more about the person (ie accepting and living the oaths). But even so, Kaladin would beat Vin, and that was before he had liveplate, now he slontzees her, and she was the most skilled mistborn

I mean at this point we're basically arguing semantics. Do you really think that the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant should just be fighting some random Mistborn? Obviously, if we are discussing a 4th Ideal Radiant, they should be fighting the best of the Mistborn. As for Kaladin vs. Vin, you're once again taking huge liberties with the WoB. When Sanderson says out of the battlefield, for some reason you seem to assume that to mean "only in an assassination." But Sanderson says nothing of the sort, nothing that would lead to that kind of assumption. The implication is that, in a dirty fight, no holds barred, no formation or squad tactics or greater strategy to conform to like there would be on a battlefield, Vin wins. There's nothing in there to imply that it would have to be an assassination.

Now that Kaladin has Live Plate, it's questionable as to whether Vin would be able to beat him. It's true that Vin was the most skilled of the mistborn. But in terms of strength, she is relatively weak, compared to Elend for example, who had the bead of Lerasium. And Vin didn't have access to all 16 metals. Kaladin is not only the most powerful of the Radiants, but also the most skilled at combat. Vin, with all her limitations, obviously doesn't stand a chance against those odds. Give her all 16 metals, some decent amount of Atium, and a bead of Lerasium, and I would expect her to win.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So a radiant in almost impenitrable armour, with a weapon that kills transforms and kills the soul (and can become an unbreakable shield) that is both inhumanly strong and fast, coupled with insane healing cant beat a person throwing/shooting coins and bullets at them. The fight is litterally a person vs a tank. Are the mistborn incredivle assassins, yes, can they take down a litteral magic knight, in magic armour with a magic sword in a 1v1 fight not a chance. And given live plate is also always around, the assasinatiom turns into a 1v1.

Mistborn get into many fights throughout Era 1, and are far from just assassins. If anything, they are far more experienced with 1v1s than Radiants, whose speciality lies instead in battlefields, squad tactics, and formation combat. The only 1v1s that we really see the Radiants partake in are the Windrunner vs Heavenly Ones fights, and that's a single Order in fights against a single type of Fused. As stated earlier, swords don't mean much when confronted with mobility and ranged capabilities.

4 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Willshapers and Stonewards could raise an impenetrable barricade of stone, making the Mistborn have to come close to do damage.  Hell, so can Lightweavers and Elsecallers by different methods. 

An open environment definitely does not favor the Mistborn as they have no anchors to push/ pull on, thus limiting their maneuverability. 

I consider instant lethality because fights between combatants of the skills we are considering rarely last long. Wearing down a Radiant is by no means easy and because of the abilities Radiance provides, tradeoffs start to introduce themselves.  Mistborn has better endurance because they have a more fuel efficient Investiture source in most metals, but they have no defense and cannot heal. The longer a fight goes the better chance of making mistakes.  A Radiant can recover from most mistakes while with a Mistborn any mistake leaves them dead. 

As for Range, yeah its important.  But Radiance can negate ranged attacks by numerous means.  If a Mistborn wants to play keep away then they can't do significant lasting damage.  They gotta get in close to kill, and being close to a Radiant is a bad place to be. 

I mean, yeah, they could raise a barrier, but a Mistborn could also just fly away. Neither results in either combatant dead. I'm assuming here that they actually are seeking to kill each other, rather than just the Mistborn trying to harm the Radiant.

You're right about the open environment though, I was thinking more along the lines of "open" meaning "not closed" as in outside in a city, rather than trapped in a room for example. Open is definitely not the right word to describe that though.

As for range, that's once again mostly a question of whether the Mistborn has firearms. If they do, there's plently of reason to believe that they would be able to deal significant damage from a range. If not, coming in close with Atium would result in a Mistborn victory as well, as the WoB above states that even an Atium Misting would win against Kaladin unless he flies up and away (and thereby opening himself to ranged attacks). If there's no firearms and no Atium, then it just comes down to a question of how much damage the coins can do, which we don't really know.

Edited December 10, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Though I could be wrong I it remember reading that aluminum, Ralkalest, and Raysium are names given to the same metal on different planets in the Cosmere. Raysium is the name from last war on Roshar for aluminum, and yes it is rare though becoming more common as the world become more industrialized. Aluminum, Ralkalest, Raysium when used to pierce act to drain investiture. On Skadrial it drains identity specifically, but on other world it drains investiture like stormlight more generally and resists invested power including shard blades. Navani was surprised because she never considered that use for aluminum.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Raysium

[XS-Terrain]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Though I could be wrong I it remember reading that aluminum, Ralkalest, and Raysium are names given to the same metal on different planets in the Cosmere. Raysium is the name from last war on Roshar for aluminum, and yes it is rare though becoming more common as the world become more industrialized. Aluminum, Ralkalest, Raysium when used to pierce act to drain investiture. On Skadrial it drains identity specifically, but on other world it drains investiture like stormlight more generally and resists invested power including shard blades. Navani was surprised because she never considered that use for aluminum.

This is simply wrong, Raysium is a God Metal along the lines of Atium or Lerasium (Rayse, Ati, Leras for the Vessels). Ralkalest is used by Raboniel to refer to aluminum; Ralkalest is also a term used on Sel. Raboniel literally uses each term, Raysium and Ralkalest, to refer to different metals (Raysium being the one in the Fused weapons, Ralkalest being the one for the cage for Lift). Raysium is also golden-white; aluminum is, well, aluminum. You can check the Coppermind pages on this or re-read the book if you're still confused on this.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Aluminum

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Raysium

[Kingsdaughter613]

Per WoB, it’s theoretically possible to kill a Spren with Leeching. In which case, a strong Mistborn with unlimited Chromium has a very good chance. Plus, if you can spike the Spren.

[Frustration]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Per WoB, it’s theoretically possible to kill a Spren with Leeching. In which case, a strong Mistborn with unlimited Chromium has a very good chance. Plus, if you can spike the Spren.

In a fight the only way to do so would be to touch the blade, now with Atium that might be possible, perhapse but that is risky.....

perhapse.

[BenduLuke]

15 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

This is simply wrong, Raysium is a God Metal along the lines of Atium or Lerasium (Rayse, Ati, Leras for the Vessels). Ralkalest is used by Raboniel to refer to aluminum; Ralkalest is also a term used on Sel. Raboniel literally uses each term, Raysium and Ralkalest, to refer to different metals (Raysium being the one in the Fused weapons, Ralkalest being the one for the cage for Lift). Raysium is also golden-white; aluminum is, well, aluminum. You can check the Coppermind pages on this or re-read the book if you're still confused on this.

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Aluminum

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Raysium

That is fine it still doesn't stop its disruptive effect on almost all investiture in the cosmere. it also means that aluminum and raysium forged with a metal disc or dart containing some other metal would make devastating projectiles vs investiture, and raysium may not even need the extra metal to be pushed/pulled.

[BenduLuke]

11 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

In a fight the only way to do so would be to touch the blade, now with Atium that might be possible, perhapse but that is risky.....

perhapse.

Of course push/pulled Raysium spikes with attached gems would do the trick to capture the Spren or drain light. Either Kelsior or Vin could have hundreds in play at any given time. Not sure even shard plate could stand up to that especially if they impacted in hard to reach spots.

Oh thanks for correcting me now I have one more alomanticly dangerous projectile for the Mistborn arsenal.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Of course push/pulled Raysium spikes with attached gems would do the trick to capture the Spren or drain light. Either Kelsior or Vin could have hundreds in play at any given time. Not sure even shard plate could stand up to that especially if they impacted in hard to reach spots.

Oh thanks for correcting me now I have one more alomanticly dangerous projectile for the Mistborn arsenal.

Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole? Because it won't go well for the Mistborn.

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole? Because it won't go well for the Mistborn.

Not sure what you mean?

I am still not sure a winner can be predicatively projected. I am also not sure rabbits exist on either world

Edited December 9, 2020 by BenduLuke

[StanLemon]

44 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

You guys keep saying how Atium is a Mistborns only chance and how they are more fuel efficient, but Atium is much LESS fuel efficent 

We aren't saying it is their only chance. We're saying that it heavily evens the fight as the Radiant would never be able to touch the Mistborn while they are burning it and the Mistborn would always hit their mark.

Edited December 9, 2020 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Not sure what you mean?

I am still not sure a winner can be predicatively projected.

If mistborn can have Raysium, Radiants can have Honorblades. Infinate Stormlight from Ishar!

 

[XS-Terrain]

32 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That is fine it still doesn't stop its disruptive effect on almost all investiture in the cosmere. it also means that aluminum and raysium forged with a metal disc or dart containing some other metal would make devastating projectiles vs investiture, and raysium may not even need the extra metal to be pushed/pulled.

26 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course push/pulled Raysium spikes with attached gems would do the trick to capture the Spren or drain light. Either Kelsior or Vin could have hundreds in play at any given time. Not sure even shard plate could stand up to that especially if they impacted in hard to reach spots.

Oh thanks for correcting me now I have one more alomanticly dangerous projectile for the Mistborn arsenal.

23 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Are you sure you want to go down that rabbit hole? Because it won't go well for the Mistborn.

19 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure what you mean?

I am still not sure a winner can be predicatively projected. I am also not sure rabbits exist on either world

I've sided with Mistborn so far, but I've gotta agree with @Ookla The Frustrated here. If we start allowing the use of God metals and various magic from other systems than the combatant's home, the use of some kind of Ruin-Light, presuming that Lights are similar to God metals in that they exist for all Shards, could probably suppress Allomancy (although the details of that are pretty blurry, still not entirely sure how Voidlight specifically suppresses Radiants and Towerlight specifically suppresses the Fused, maybe it has to do with Intent as they're currently fighting each other? In which case Autonomy-Light, assuming that Trell is Autonomy, might be more appropriate?). Aluminum darts probably wouldn't penetrate Shardplate, but aluminum bullets might not be a bad idea, assuming they suppress Radiant healing the same way they suppress Feruchemical gold.

EDIT: I wrote this before @Ookla The Frustrated's most recent reply, see below for my response to it.

Edited December 9, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[XS-Terrain]

1 minute ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

If mistborn can have Raysium, Radiants can have Honorblades. Infinate Stormlight from Ishar!

This doesn't exactly seem to be a one-to-one comparison, what you've stated seems more comparable to infinite Lerasium + Atium and infinite of the 16 original metals as well as infinite of all 32 (48 if we include Harmonium?) God metal alloys.

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

This doesn't exactly seem to be a one-to-one comparison, what you've stated seems more comparable to infinite Lerasium + Atium and infinite of the 16 original metals as well as infinite of all 32 (48 if we include Harmonium?) God metal alloys.

We have metals that the Mistbon should in no way be able to get compared to something that more likly than not will very soon find itself in Radiant hands. 

[StanLemon]

One other consideration, Electrum, while not as good as Atium would still be very useful for defense. A mistborn could see whenever they are about to be hit with something and maneuver to avoid. Not as all encompassing of a defense but would make it very difficult for a Radiant to hit them. My biggest issue with this argument is the belief that Radiants are the end all be all. Would confrontations between a 4th Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with all 16 metals more often than not favor the Radiant? Sure. But that doesn't mean Radiants always win or even win an astronomical amount of the time. No Order other than Windrunners can Skybreakers compete with a Mistborn's mobility. Mistborn ranged attacks aren't limited to coins, as proven very well by Kelsier. Other than Atium, a Mistborn will keep going far longer with their Investiture than a Radiant (with the possible exception of Bondsmiths assuming Dalinar is not unique). And Chromium is exceptionally dangerous to a Radiant. If the Mistborn manages to disarm the Radiant thus dismissing the Shardblade and grab the Radiant, the Radiant can't summon their Blade per WoB. Hell, a Mistborn could theoretically burn both Nicrosil and Chromium at the same time causing whatever Investiture that isn't drained by the Chromium to be wasted by the Nicroburst. While not flashy, a Mistborn would very much be capable of dragging out the combat until the Radiant uses up all their Stormlight, then it would just be a matter of hitting the Plate until it breaks. What a Mistborn lacks in raw power they make up with versitility.

Do the odds favor Radiants? Yes but it is by no means one sided.

Edited December 9, 2020 by StanLemon

[Bigmikey357]

I've read many of these arguments that favor Mistborn over Radiant and they all look the same as before Kaladin got his upgrade.  Many of the scenarios presented that have the Mistborn winning requires the Radiant to be stupid or unwilling to use their entire power set or just lacking offensive capabilities in general.  They require the Mistborn to have access to all 16 metals plus unlimited Atium plus a sniper rifle full of aluminum bullets and a tank for support.  I don't find many of the arguments to be realistic. From my interpretation of the text there are ways for a Mistborn to win without going to extremes, they're just less abundant than the ways a Radiant has.

In a fight between Mistborn and Radiants the metalborn have one distinct advantage,  Atium.  They aren't stronger than a Radiant in plate, they aren't faster. They're less maneuverable than a Windrunner/ Skybreaker, pewter makes them somewhat durable but they cannot heal from mortal wounds. Their natural range attacks are ineffective against live plate, only marginally effective vs dead plate. Their abilities are most suited to taking an opponent unaware,  not standing against opponents that can take punishment.  Atium is the only tool in their arsenal that can be used to instantly kill a Radiant,  and one must be really close to use it effectively. 

On the other side of the ledger are Radiants,  presumably of the 4th Ideal.  Not all Radiants are combat oriented but at their base these guys and gals have Shardblade that cannot be manipulated allomantically and can morph into any weapon at the speed of thought.  They have armor that makes them stronger and faster than any pewter burner.  If someone breaks through that plate they can heal from nearly any wound provided they have fuel to do so. Without even counting their individual skills or surges, the most inept of them can make short work of nearly all other magic users in the Cosmere. And unlike guns or allomantic grenades or explosives,  their blade and armor cannot be dropped and used by their opponents.  Add in surges with area effects and it becomes no contest.  How is Atium going to account for somebody like Jasnah,  who just recently torched a battlefield and walked through it unscathed? 

I've long stated even before the upgrade that Radiant beats Mistborn more often than not. With what little we've seen from the capacity of Living Plate and the Mistborn chances are  near zero.  You wanna kill a Radiant in a 1 v 1 battle? Use a Fullborn. If you must use a Mistborn,  the most effective way is through deception. If you cannot do that then you stay out of range and spend a long time trying to make it through defenses and dodging attacks.

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

You're taking a lot of liberty here with the WoBs to try and make them conform to your position. Wax does use a specialty weapon, but the specialty of that weapon is that, along with 6 regular bullets, it can also chamber 3 specialty bullets. In the WoB, it's made pretty clear that one of these specialty bullets, fired into the right area, breaks the Shardplate. It's not a stretch to assume from there that his 2-3 bullet estimate then refers to the regular bullets.

Im not taking any liberty, brandon said possible, with the right gun/bullet/shot/timing. If he shot shardplate at point blank range eith his biggest bullet and pushed on the shot sure. Against an inhumanly fast person his shots will at best glance significsnfky reducing the damage to the section. If its can wax kill a radiant while they stand completley still, sure. But thats taking alot of liberty.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Regarding the shield, I'm assuming here the spren has some limitation in terms of how big it can be and how thin it could be, as otherwise the Radiant could wrap themselves in the spren and just be completely invulnerable or create a spear of infinite length and stab another planet. The question then becomes "What size is the spren limited to?" From what we've seen, it doesn't seem like Syl ever becomes anything massive that could cover the entire body. Hitting that unconvered area would suffice. Maneurving around the Radiant with various Steelpushes and Ironpulls could also help to expose more area to hit.

The shield doesnt need to cover everything just the center of mass, its hard enough to hit a fats moving target, add that the centre of mass is not invulnerable, not just almost amd youve got to get a head/arm/leg shot on an inhumanly fast object. Good luck with that even for wax.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Regarding the bolt-action, the Lee Enfield that I mentioned was first introduced in the late 1800s IRL, which is similar to the current state of Scadrial. My original post was more to correct a lot of wrong assumptions about the power of guns, than to really compare Mistborn and Radiants. My point was that a gun could pretty easily break Shardplate. Whether our made-up scenario here should give either of the combatants guns or other weapons is another question entirely. My opinion is that, if the Mistborn has a gun and the Radiant doesn't, the Mistborn wins. If neither have a gun, it's much less clear, but I still fall on the side of the Mistborn due to ranged capability. If both have guns, that's where I percieve the Radiant to have the advantage, because their main weakness is range.

They can close any useable range difference, adolin can thrown his shard blade. Even if the mistborn can eaaily dodge the thrown shardspear thats time theyre not aiming well which is more missed shots on the jnhumanly fast radiant. Their range is then nullified, and theyve done zero damage.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Regarding mobility, it obviously depends on the Order, as I mentioned earlier. The question I have for you is, how is the Mistborn going to get hit in the first place? None of the Orders, other than the Windrunners and Skybreakers, have even a chace at getting anywhere close to the Mistborn.

Stormlight plus shardplate increase strength speed and endurance, the mistborn either full flees and burns through their metals or they slowly retreat and get caught. Thats ignoring any surge. Add surges and the mistborn stands zero chance, but no surges just running in shardplate and full of stormlight and the mistborn has less speed and dexterity, thekr advantage is with cornering due to push/pulls.

So no the mistborn cant run, they cant out maneouver or out run them, at least not for long.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Even if they do get close, does the Mistborn have Atium? If they do, then they're not gonna get hit no matter what. 

Until theyre out of atium which is what 5 sword swing? 6? And then the atiums gone and they need more and theyve got to avoid a super fast super strong compabtant on close range with a magical sword that instanlty kills without atium. Atium buys them seconds not minutes or hours. 

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

As for getting through Live Plate, that's once again just a question of "Do they have a gun?" If they do, a couple of shots should be enough. If not, it depends on how fast the Mistborn can get the coins to fly, which is something that we still really don't know. It must be slower than a gun, otherwise Era 2 Coinshots just wouldn't use guns. But it's still gotta be pretty fast, considering that a Steelpush is capable of quickly launching the Mistborn high into the air against gravity, and the coins weigh much less than the body.

Ive covered this several times now, if the radiant stands till and a gun gets unloaded straight on will it break the plate sure. But the radiant is moving super fast with a shield covering center of mass. So the mistborns not breaking amything. And even straight on shots "a couple of shots" is only enough with litterally the most powerful bullet in existance on scadrial, but again its got to hit thr extremities of a very fast target.

 

Coins wont do anything to plate, naybe if they pushed bullets but a coin wont penetrat plate, it will slide off doing nothing. As to them pushing up, thats a difference of force vs acceleration  they  an push down against the earth with more force than their body weight, thats all them flying with steelpushes says.

 

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

I mean at this point we're basically arguing semantics. Do you really think that the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant should just be fighting some random Mistborn? Obviously, if we are discussing a 4th Ideal Radiant, they should be fighting the best of the Mistborn. As for Kaladin vs. Vin, you're once again taking huge liberties with the WoB. When Sanderson says out of the battlefield, for some reason you seem to assume that to mean "only in an assassination." But Sanderson says nothing of the sort, nothing that would lead to that kind of assumption. The implication is that, in a dirty fight, no holds barred, no formation or squad tactics or greater strategy to conform to like there would be on a battlefield, Vin wins. There's nothing in there to imply that it would have to be an assassination.

No im not, im taking a radiant of the 4th oath vs a full mistborn, thd first will likely be far less rare than the second. Is Kaladin the same as every other 3rd oath radiant before he swears his 4th, no, is vin the same as every other mistborn , no, so im not taking any liberties here.

And i havnt brandon said on a battlefield, ie in a fight kaladin wins, and that was preplate. It significsntly implies assasination, ie the opponents dont know the others coming. Mistborn are assasins thats what their power leads to, radiants are warriors, in a straight up.fight the warrior wins.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Now that Kaladin has Live Plate, it's questionable as to whether Vin would be able to beat him. It's true that Vin was the most skilled of the mistborn. But in terms of strength, she is relatively weak, compared to Elend for example, who had the bead of Lerasium. And Vin didn't have access to all 16 metals. Kelsier is not only the most powerful of the Radiants, but also the most skilled at combat. Vin, with all her limitations, obviously doesn't stand a chance against those odds. Give her all 16 metals, some decent amount of Atium, and a bead of Lerasium, and I would expect her to win.

So not vin anymore? Vin beats elend every day of the week, the reason Kaladin and Vin are so dangerous is not because they have more raw power, which is why these com0arisons dont include them and instead a normal level of skill.

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Mistborn get into many fights throughout Era 1, and are far from just assassins. If anything, they are far more experienced with 1v1s than Radiants, whose speciality lies instead in battlefields, squad tactics, and formation combat. The only 1v1s that we really see the Radiants partake in are the Windrunner vs Heavenly Ones fights, and that's a single Order in fights against a single type of Fused. As stated earlier, swords don't mean much when confronted with mobility and ranged capabilities.

Litterally every fight with a shardblade (radiant or otherwise) has been one vs one or one vs many. The sharblade can hurt allies as easy as enemies hence they fight effectivley 1v1. 

2 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

I mean, yeah, they could raise a barrier, but a Mistborn could also just fly away. Neither results in either combatant dead. I'm assuming here that they actually are seeking to kill each other, rather than just the Mistborn trying to harm the Radiant.

You're right about the open environment though, I was thinking more along the lines of "open" meaning "not closed" as in outside in a city, rather than trapped in a room for example. Open is definitely not the right word to describe that though.

As for range, that's once again mostly a question of whether the Mistborn has firearms. If they do, there's plently of reason to believe that they would be able to deal significant damage from a range. If not, coming in close with Atium would result in a Mistborn victory as well, as the WoB above states that even an Atium Misting would win against Kaladin unless he flies up and away (and thereby opening himself to ranged attacks). If there's no firearms and no Atium, then it just comes down to a question of how much damage the coins can do, which we don't really know.

The kaldin wob is pre plate, so the stopping power becomes an issue  as well as atium burning quickly, theyll run out after 5/6 dodges and then have to get more while dodging a close, superfast radiant with a massive death stick

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

We aren't saying it is their only chance. We're saying that it heavily evens the fight as the Radiant would never be able to touch the Mistborn while they are burning it and the Mistborn would always hit their mark.

So for the 5 seconds they cant be hit, they live a little longer, against a 3rd oath and lower sure, but given the 4th oath, the just live a little longer.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

One other consideration, Electrum, while not as good as Atium would still be very useful for defense. A mistborn could see whenever they are about to be hit with something and maneuver to avoid. Not as all encompassing of a defense but would make it very difficult for a Radiant to hit them. My biggest issue with this argument is the belief that Radiants are the end all be all. Would confrontations between a 4th Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with all 16 metals more often than not favor the Radiant? Sure. But that doesn't mean Radiants always win or even win an astronomical amount of the time. No Order other than Windrunners can Skybreakers compete with a Mistborn's mobility. Mistborn ranged attacks aren't limited to coins, as proven very well by Kelsier. Other than Atium, a Mistborn will keep going far longer with their Investiture than a Radiant (with the possible exception of Bondsmiths assuming Dalinar is not unique). And Chromium is exceptionally dangerous to a Radiant. If the Mistborn manages to disarm the Radiant thus dismissing the Shardblade and grab the Radiant, the Radiant can't summon their Blade per WoB. Hell, a Mistborn could theoretically burn both Nicrosil and Chromium at the same time causing whatever Investiture that isn't drained by the Chromium to be wasted by the Nicroburst. While not flashy, a Mistborn would very much be capable of dragging out the combat until the Radiant uses up all their Stormlight, then it would just be a matter of hitting the Plate until it breaks. What a Mistborn lacks in raw power they make up with versitility.

Do the odds favor Radiants? Yes but it is by no means one sided.

The manouverability provided by stormlight and plate more than matches a mistborn. So without taking into account specific surges which likley trivialies this encounter (adhesion, gravitiation, divison, illumination, transportation, cohesion and tension) so basically only edge dancers dont have a trivial solution  and progression plus abrasion increases theire mobility and survivability. A mistborn is a theif and assasin, they wear no armour (see no defence) and utilize small weapons (coins  bullets, knives) and have been trained to fight other zero defence people. Radiants are magic knights trained to fight other magic knights, with magical plate (see max defenece) and a morphing weapon. At the 4th oath in a 1v1 fight the mistborn gets stomped. Below that oath its a much closer fight

[Frustration]

By Order

Windrunners: Mistborn have no advantage here, and they're only hope is to somehow pull off a Chromium strike

Skybeakers: Same as Windrunners but with the added bonus of if a Mistborn tries a Chromium touch, you can use division to burn their hand off.

Dustbringers: can use abrasion to make themselves impervious to attack, while hitting back just as hard as before, and having division.

Edgedanncers: can heal from anything, grow defences, and become impervious.

Truthwatchers: use illusions and survive anything

Lightweavers, soulcasting

Elsecallers: Can soulcast from cognitive realm, no win for Mistborn at all.

Willshapers: Craft defences from stone

Stonewards: increased strength from Tension, building defences

Bondsmith: Infinate Stormlight, No win.  

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The manouverability provided by stormlight and plate more than matches a mistborn. So without taking into account specific surges which likley trivialies this encounter (adhesion, gravitiation, divison, illumination, transportation, cohesion and tension) so basically only edge dancers dont have a trivial solution  and progression plus abrasion increases theire mobility and survivability. A mistborn is a theif and assasin, they wear no armour (see no defence) and utilize small weapons (coins  bullets, knives) and have been trained to fight other zero defence people. Radiants are magic knights trained to fight other magic knights, with magical plate (see max defenece) and a morphing weapon. At the 4th oath in a 1v1 fight the mistborn gets stomped. Below that oath its a much closer fight

Several things wrong here. Any Radiant without Gravitation just can't compare to the maneuverability that Pushing/Pulling give. Let's break down the individual Surges you say trivialize it

Adhesion-this might be an actual problem for Mistborn, though it does require them to touch the Misborn first. Using it on the ground won't work on a Mistborn if he's constantly Pushing/Pulling

Gravitation-This truly is what I consider one of the only 2 Surges that would be super problematic for a Mistborn. This is the only way a Radiant can compare and even surpass a Mistborn's maneuverability.

Division-Every single use of Division we have seen requires physical contact. If the Mistborn is fighting smart, physical contact of any kind outside the hit would be avoided even if they are fighting a Radiant without Division.

Illumination-Possibly blinding the Radiant? Illusions won't be that useful when the Mistborn can just use Bronze to locate the real Radiant

Transportation-For what? Running away? Radiants can't pull off Lezian's trick

Cohesion-A Mistborn can avoid the ground with Pushes/Pulls. This would be truly problematic in an open field, less so in a city

Tension-Honestly we know far to little about what Tension does to debate about it.

Mistborn while traditionally being assassins are fully capable of being warriors in their own right. Kelsier's fight with Bendal proves they can do a whole lot more than just throw some coins and stab people.

[Lemiltock]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Several things wrong here. Any Radiant without Gravitation just can't compare to the maneuverability that Pushing/Pulling give. Let's break down the individual Surges you say trivialize it

No it doesnt, if they just stay up in the air the radiant destorys their ankor and they fall down, they have slightly more lateral mostion, but the reflexes speed and strength a radiant gets in plate woth stormlight edges them ahead here.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Adhesion-this might be an actual problem for Mistborn, though it does require them to touch the Misborn first. Using it on the ground won't work on a Mistborn if he's constantly Pushing/Pulling

Or you know pull all their weapons to the ground, their clothing, the pursuers head was more invested than a mistborn is.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Gravitation-This truly is what I consider one of the only 2 Surges that would be super problematic for a Mistborn. This is the only way a Radiant can compare and even surpass a Mistborn's maneuverability.

Thowing a rock with 100 lahses at the mistborn, game over man game over.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Division-Every single use of Division we have seen requires physical contact. If the Mistborn is fighting smart, physical contact of any kind outside the hit would be avoided even if they are fighting a Radiant without Division.

So the mistborn, that needs physical contact to leach the radiant also isnt touching them with divison.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Illumination-Possibly blinding the Radiant? Illusions won't be that useful when the Mistborn can just use Bronze to locate the real Radiant

Bronze wont show where the radiant is if they are using a huge illusion, plus tell your eyes your not seeing 100 radiants like shallan did.

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Transportation-For what? Running away? Radiants can't pull off Lezian's trick

Or for telleporting to them, we havnt seen much of what the radiants can do, but given its the surge of transportation and the oath gates bkth transfer to the cognitive and between two distant physical locations instatly means radiant is in the mistborns face constantly

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Cohesion-A Mistborn can avoid the ground with Pushes/Pulls. This would be truly problematic in an open field, less so in a city

They need an anchor, cohesion moves the ankors under the ground and guess where the mistborn is, on the now sinking ground

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Tension-Honestly we know far to little about what Tension does to debate about it.

Perhaps tension was a poor inclusion

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Mistborn while traditionally being assassins are fully capable of being warriors in their own right. Kelsier's fight with Bendal proves they can do a whole lot more than just throw some coins and stab people.

Isnt that litterally what kelsier did though? And kelsier is not your normal mistborn. Look at all the normal.mistborns in era 1, what where they trained to do? Did they tell everyone ohh hey this persons a mistborn or did they train in secret like assasins.i

 If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck its not a dog

[StanLemon]

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

By Order

Windrunners: Mistborn have no advantage here, and they're only hope is to somehow pull off a Chromium strike

This I actually agree with, Gravitation gives them a lot of mobility. Windrunners and Skybreakers would be by far the hardest Orders for a Mistborn to face. (With the possible exception of Bondsmiths, see below)

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Skybeakers: Same as Windrunners but with the added bonus of if a Mistborn tries a Chromium touch, you can use division to burn their hand off.

Assuming that they can use Division while they are being Leached. As Radiants can't summon their Blade if it isn't already summoned, I doubt they can use a Surge if it isn't already active. Even if they are burning the air around them, that means the Radiant is both using up their Stormlight to keep the air around them on fire and to keep them from needing to breath burning through their Stormlight even faster.

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Dustbringers: can use abrasion to make themselves impervious to attack, while hitting back just as hard as before, and having division.

Where do you get Abrasion making them impervious?

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Edgedanncers: can heal from anything, grow defences, and become impervious.

Again, where are you getting the idea that Abrasion makes them impervious? Progression would be handled the same way as any other Radiant with healing, make them use up their Stormlight

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Truthwatchers: use illusions and survive anything

Same issue with Progression and illusions wouldn't be that valuable against Bronze

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Lightweavers, soulcasting

Soulcasting, the only other single Surge besides Gravitation that gives a massive advantage against a Mistborn

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Elsecallers: Can soulcast from cognitive realm, no win for Mistborn at all.

Assuming that they can directly Soulcast a Mistborn which I doubt as Jasnah's thoughts in Oathbringer state that it is difficult enough just trying to Soulcast normal people, let alone an Invested Mistborn burning metals. 

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Willshapers: Craft defences from stone

And? Stone defenses will just prolong the fight and the longer the fight goes on the better it will be for the Mistborn

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Stonewards: increased strength from Tension, building defences

Same defense problem and extra strength isn't very useful already

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Bondsmith: Infinate Stormlight, No win.  

This I actually completely agree with. Assuming Dalinar isn't unique, as the Stormfather implies that what Dalinar does has never been done before.

[Lemiltock]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This I actually agree with, Gravitation gives them a lot of mobility. Windrunners and Skybreakers would be by far the hardest Orders for a Mistborn to face. (With the possible exception of Bondsmiths, see below)

Assuming that they can use Division while they are being Leached. As Radiants can't summon their Blade if it isn't already summoned, I doubt they can use a Surge if it isn't already active. Even if they are burning the air around them, that means the Radiant is both using up their Stormlight to keep the air around them on fire and to keep them from needing to breath burning through their Stormlight even faster.

Or just see the hand get close to touching them and burn division as they touch  or maybe the ground as they get close?

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Where do you get Abrasion making them impervious?

Did you see Nale and lift? Because that was an untrained child against a herald.

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Again, where are you getting the idea that Abrasion makes them impervious? Progression would be handled the same way as any other Radiant with healing, make them use up their Stormlight

See above

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Same issue with Progression and illusions wouldn't be that valuable against Bronze

Broze gives you a pulse, sure you know theirs and illusion, but which of these 100 radiants is the real one. Bronze even if they where a savant isnt a geolocator and try telling your eyes thats not the real radiant swinging at you. Or maybe the ground being slightly different or thay super bright light to not blind you...

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Soulcasting, the only other single Surge besides Gravitation that gives a massive advantage against a Mistborn

Or soulcast the air around them to oil and then fire? Or just to not O2

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Assuming that they can directly Soulcast a Mistborn which I doubt as Jasnah's thoughts in Oathbringer state that it is difficult enough just trying to Soulcast normal people, let alone an Invested Mistborn burning metals. 

See above

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

And? Stone defenses will just prolong the fight and the longer the fight goes on the better it will be for the Mistborn

They can shape stone, why cant they attack with it, or turn the ground under the mistborn to quicksand?

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Same defense problem and extra strength isn't very useful already

This I actually completely agree with. Assuming Dalinar isn't unique, as the Stormfather implies that what Dalinar does has never been done before.

Dalinar is not unique in this regard

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.

Brandon Sanderson

I have RAFO'd that. Whether he is Ascending or not is a RAFO.

Questioner

Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don't know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram--

Brandon Sanderson

Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital "A" or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.

Questioner

I guess my main question would just be Dalinar's now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.

Brandon Sanderson

He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.

Questioner

That is a Bondsmith power, okay.

Brandon Sanderson

That is specifically a Bondsmith power.

Questioner

Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to bridge--

Brandon Sanderson

He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.

Questioner

Oh okay, that's what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that power would be a Bondsmith power.

Brandon Sanderson

Let's say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand... But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.

Footnote: Brandon clarified that he might have been unintentionally misleading in his answers to this question during his Stormlight 4 Update 1.
Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

[StanLemon]

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

No it doesnt, if they just stay up in the air the radiant destorys their ankor and they fall down, they have slightly more lateral mostion, but the reflexes speed and strength a radiant gets in plate woth stormlight edges them ahead here.

And the Radiant knows what their anchor is how exactly.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Or you know pull all their weapons to the ground, their clothing, the pursuers head was more invested than a mistborn is.

Steelpushes have consistently been shown to be able to Push away with great force. I'm fairly confident they could escape a Reverse Lashing

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Thowing a rock with 100 lahses at the mistborn, game over man game over.

Hmm, I wonder what type of Invested entity is used to things being launched at them at great speeds. Not accounting for Atium, Electrum and Bendalloy could be used to dodge.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So the mistborn, that needs physical contact to leach the radiant also isnt touching them with divison.

I doubt they can start using a Surge while their Stormlight is being sucked out of them. In a previous post I explained the problems with keeping the air around them on fire

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Bronze wont show where the radiant is if they are using a huge illusion, plus tell your eyes your not seeing 100 radiants like shallan did.

What are you talking about? It's like freaking radar. Sure if the Radiant can capitalize on the initial surprise, then yes. If not, it probably won't take more than a moment for the Mistborn to figure out something is up

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Or for telleporting to them, we havnt seen much of what the radiants can do, but given its the surge of transportation and the oath gates bkth transfer to the cognitive and between two distant physical locations instatly means radiant is in the mistborns face constantly

Maybe, but unlikely given Jasnah's difficulty in getting back from the Cognitive.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They need an anchor, cohesion moves the ankors under the ground and guess where the mistborn is, on the now sinking ground

Back to the problem of the Radiant knowing about the anchor in the first place. Yes this could be a major problem for the Mistborn in an open field, but in a city not so much. A Radiant would run out of Stormlight long before they sunk every possible anchor.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps tension was a poor inclusion

Isnt that litterally what kelsier did though? And kelsier is not your normal mistborn. Look at all the normal.mistborns in era 1, what where they trained to do? Did they tell everyone ohh hey this persons a mistborn or did they train in secret like assasins

Kelsier was throwing around swords, bars, every metal instrument available and they were moving around with force. Honestly, we don't know what the average Mistborn was like, we only saw three outside of Kelsier, Vin, and Zane and we don't know how good Shan was in comparison to the average Mistborn. Kelsier only had two years of training.

 

[StanLemon]

@Lemiltock that WoB is suspect, take a gander at the footnote at the end. Brandon has said that what happens in the books trumps WoB, and The Stormfather's reaction in Oathbringer imply that it has never happened before Dalinar

Edited December 10, 2020 by StanLemon

[Lemiltock]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

@Lemiltock that WoB is suspect, take a gander at the footnote at the end. Brandon has said that what happens in the books trumps WoB, and The Stormfather's reaction in Oathbringer imply that it has never happened before Dalinar

And yet Ishar had no problems opening one.

 

Also we saw Navani provide light somehow

Edited December 10, 2020 by Lemiltock
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