Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Along with metallurgy comes chemistry. In addition some of the metal arts deal with an understanding of vector physics. There are vast stores of scientific knowlege in copperminds and scholar researchers working with that copper library.

And evidence to support this claim?

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Does crem have a metallic component? If so an Iron compounder could spread out the surface area supporting their increased weight then slingshot out of the hole once they store the weight.

It might contain metal, but it is still stone, can't pull on that.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I suspect that once Scadrial gets a look at fabrials with their knowledge of metals and metallurgy they will quickly advance in fabrial creation and use. At that point both Roshar and Scadrial will be in a run away positive scientific feed back loop where every advance in Fabrials on Roshar will catapult scadrian science ahead followed by Rosharan advances and so forth. Honestly though I actually think Scadrial and Roshar will be on the same side in the end combating a greater menace, perhaps Trell.

1. Scandrial doesn't have spren
2. They will be in conflict wth each other.

[Bigmikey357]

14 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Along with metallurgy comes chemistry. In addition some of the metal arts deal with an understanding of vector physics. There are vast stores of scientific knowlege in copperminds and scholar researchers working with that copper library.

1. Scadrian metallurgy is going to be off if they try to reproduce on Roshar, atmospheric pressure,  gravity and oxygen composition are all elements in producing machine grade metals. The percentages that are so important to making viable metals for the Metallic Arts are going to be way off until they adjust.  They will have to have large stores in hand while they adjust, all while establishing a beachhead, firming up their supply chain and fighting off an army well familiar with the local conditions. 

2. Understanding vector physics intuitively does not necessarily convey vast scientific knowledge. At most it just provides a head start. Scadrial ain't picking up E=MC^2 tomorrow just because they can throw coins around by magic. I think that to say so is vastly overestimating the speed of Scadrial's technological progress. 

3.That copper library is about 1000 years out of date and has very little in the way of scientific experimentational notations thanks to TLR. The Keepers stored much in the way of cultural cache but little science.  Again,  they are not pulling off E=MC^2 tomorrow.

[BenduLuke]

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

And evidence to support this claim?

It might contain metal, but it is still stone, can't pull on that.

1. Scandrial doesn't have spren
2. They will be in conflict wth each other.

It is just common sense.

If the allomancer is strong enough, they can pull on metal in stone. They have been shown to be able to pull on metal in a person's blood. Argument 2 makes no sense based on what I have seen in the books. Spren pick people who share their values. Highspren pick people who are Just and confident, Honorspren: Protective and leaders, Peakspren: Dependable and Resourceful, Reachers: Resolute and Builders, Inkspren: Wise and Careful, Cryptic: Creative and Honest, Mistspren: Learned and Giving, Cultivationspren: Loving and healing, Ashspren: Brave and Obedient. Don't tell me there aren't Scadrian's who exemplify each and everyone of those qualities since we both know there are characters in the mistborn books that do. Only bondsmiths would be difficult because there can be only 3 and we already have 2, but if a Scadrian were Pious and Guiding they might still bond Nightwatcher at this time.

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

1. Scadrian metallurgy is going to be off if they try to reproduce on Roshar, atmospheric pressure,  gravity and oxygen composition are all elements in producing machine grade metals. The percentages that are so important to making viable metals for the Metallic Arts are going to be way off until they adjust.  They will have to have large stores in hand while they adjust, all while establishing a beachhead, firming up their supply chain and fighting off an army well familiar with the local conditions. 

2. Understanding vector physics intuitively does not necessarily convey vast scientific knowledge. At most it just provides a head start. Scadrial ain't picking up E=MC^2 tomorrow just because they can throw coins around by magic. I think that to say so is vastly overestimating the speed of Scadrial's technological progress. 

3.That copper library is about 1000 years out of date and has very little in the way of scientific experimentational notations thanks to TLR. The Keepers stored much in the way of cultural cache but little science.  Again,  they are not pulling off E=MC^2 tomorrow.

It's not that hard to adjust for differences in atmospheric content and gravity. Besides by the time Scadrial crosses the stars to reach Roshar they will have FTL level tech.

What makes you think they haven't been updating their copper libraries? Scadrial also has the advantage that either gender can read. Just because the stories haven't highlighted scholars on Scadrial doesn't mean there aren't any just as or even more brilliant than Navani and with the advantage of 100's of years more advanced technology to start with.

Brandon has already said Scadrial will have FTL tech so E=mc^2 is on their horizion and based on current tech levels much sooner than on Roshar. Yes having an intuitive understanding of vector physics does help fast track science. Scadrial went from medievil tech to early 20th century tech in 100 to 200 years. That is about 1000 years faster than we did it. Roshar on the other hand is barely at medievil levels and have been for around 3,000 years with some exceptions where some degree of fabrial science have replaced mechanical science. That is to be expected since their magic skews their perception of the physical world. I suspect that once Scadrian's are exposed to Fabrial science they will absorb it near effortlessly and exceed it rapidly because of their much deeper, broader, and more solid understanding of the physical laws of the Cosmere along with the metalic laws.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It is just common sense.

Just common sense that somewhere in the world there is a coppermind with a bunch of scientific information?

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If the allomancer is strong enough, they can pull on metal in stone.

Yeah, the like 3 that exist.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Argument 2 makes no sense based on what I have seen in the books. Spren pick people who share their values. Highspren pick people who are Just and confident, Honorspren: Protective and leaders, Peakspren: Dependable and Resourceful, Reachers: Resolute and Builders, Inkspren: Wise and Careful, Cryptic: Creative and Honest, Mistspren: Learned and Giving, Cultivationspren: Loving and healing, Ashspren: Brave and Obedient. Don't tell me there aren't Scadrian's who exemplify each and everyone of those qualities since we both know there are characters in the mistborn books that do. Only bondsmiths would be difficult because there can be only 3 and we already have 2, but if a Scadrian were Pious and Guiding they might still bond Nightwatcher at this time.

So you're saying that there was never a large group of brave and loyal soldiers that never became Dustbringers, like of I don't know

The Singers?

We have seen them take sides it is ridiculas to say they don't

[BenduLuke]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Just common sense that somewhere in the world there is a coppermind with a bunch of scientific information?

Yeah, the like 3 that exist.

So you're saying that there was never a large group of brave and loyal soldiers that never became Dustbringers, like of I don't know

The Singers?

We have seen them take sides it is ridiculas to say they don't

Of course Scadrians store information in copperminds like we do in computers.

An Iron compounder would be strong enough just by virtue of mass.

Venli was the enemy and is a radiant having bonded a Spren. I could see Dockson becoming a Dustbringer, and Ham becoming a Willshaper, and Breeze becoming a Lightweaver, given their character and ideals. Spren have no ideal saying a person must be from Roshar to bond with them even if Rosharan's are fighting someone from elsewhere. Venli is proof that Spren will even bond Regals if they hold to the Spren's ideals.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Of course Scadrians store information in copperminds like we do in computers.

They won't have anything more advanced than what we have already seen.

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

An Iron compounder would be strong enough just by virtue of mass.

the Strength of the pull does not equate to power.

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Venli was the enemy and is a radiant having bonded a Spren. I could see Dockson becoming a Dustbringer, and Ham becoming a Willshaper, and Breeze becoming a Lightweaver, given their character and ideals. Spren have no ideal saying a person must be from Roshar to bond with them even if Rosharan's are fighting someone from elsewhere. Venli is proof that Spren will even bond Regals if they hold to the Spren's ideals.

Venli is the First(second if we count Eshoni) in seven thoushand years, it even tells us this, if it was just ideals it would have happened before, they can and do take sides.

And on top of this it is Roshar vs Scandrial so we are working off the base assumption that both worlds are united.

[BenduLuke]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They won't have anything more advanced than what we have already seen.

the Strength of the pull does not equate to power.

Venli is the First(second if we count Eshoni) in seven thoushand years, it even tells us this, if it was just ideals it would have happened before, they can and do take sides.

And on top of this it is Roshar vs Scandrial so we are working off the base assumption that both worlds are united.

Yes it is Rosharan vs Scadrian magic. One of the differences in the magic systems is that Rosharan magic is granted by bonding another sentient entity through oaths to ideals, where as Scadrian magic is inborn and not naturally available to other races. So Scadrians could bond spren, but Rosharans are not born with mistborn or feruchemical abilities so cannot inherit them, and acquiring them by hemalurgy would likely break their oaths and thus lose their radiant abilities.

Of course strength of pull equates to power. The greater their mass the greater their power and the more metal they can perceive, pull on, and the stronger they can pull on all the available metal.

Brandon has said that Scadrial will have FTL Tech so they will have more advanced things than we have already seen. With the advent of southern tech it wont be long until copperminds will be open to everyone, and they already do operate similar to computers. for that matter all Feruchemy operates like computers giving pointers into the spirit realm where the power or information is.

Whats your point. Both Eshoni and Venli were the enemy and they bonded a Spren. The reason Spren started bonding anyone is because Odium was returning and they opposed him even though they didn't trust the humans much and trusted singers less. Or did you miss that part?

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Yes it is Rosharan vs Scadrian magic. One of the differences in the magic systems is that Rosharan magic is granted by bonding another sentient entity through oaths to ideals, where as Scadrian magic is inborn and not naturally available to other races. So Scadrians could bond spren, but Rosharans are not born with mistborn or feruchemical abilities so cannot inherit them, and acquiring them by hemalurgy would likely break their oaths and thus lose their radiant abilities.

If this discussion is just magic we finished long ago you yourself have said that Rosharan magic is stronger

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course strength of pull equates to power. The greater their mass the greater their power and the more metal they can perceive, pull on, and the stronger they can pull on all the available metal.

No it doesn't, having an increased Mass doesn't let you push on trace metals, Lerasium Mistborn are not heavier than regualr Mistborn.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Brandon has said that Scadrial will have FTL Tech so they will have more advanced things than we have already seen. With the advent of southern tech it wont be long until copperminds will be open to everyone, and they already do operate similar to computers. for that matter all Feruchemy operates like computers giving pointers into the spirit realm where the power or information is.

FTL is due to Allomancy, not technology, but that's besides the point, we have seen the most advanced info Scandrial has, they don't have some coppermind sitting around with the secrets of Quantum mechanics

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Whats your point. Both Eshoni and Venli were the enemy and they bonded a Spren. The reason Spren started bonding anyone is because Odium was returning and they opposed him even though they didn't trust the humans much and trusted singers less. Or did you miss that part?

So, they picked a side, I fail to see how this proves your point.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

If this discussion is just magic we finished long ago you yourself have said that Rosharan magic is stronger

No it doesn't, having an increased Mass doesn't let you push on trace metals, Lerasium Mistborn are not heavier than regualr Mistborn.

FTL is due to Allomancy, not technology, but that's besides the point, we have seen the most advanced info Scandrial has, they don't have some coppermind sitting around with the secrets of Quantum mechanics

So, they picked a side, I fail to see how this proves your point.

No I said often one on one Rosharan magic is capable of more force, but Scadrian magic has more capability. In the end they seem to be equally strong to me.

Of course a Lurcher or Coinshot with enough mass could affect trace metals.

FTL is due to scientific application of Allomancy. What we have seen is that Scadrial is on the verge of major scientific breakthroughs at this point which will be added to copperminds since that is their method of permanently storing knowledge.

Yeah Timber picked Regals who matched their ideals even though they were the enemy of the other Radiants at the time. Assuming a Spren wont pick a person from Scadrial just because they are on the other side of conflict with Rosharan's is an invalid assumption based on the rules governing Spren. For example a Highspren might decide that a Scadrian has a more just cause than the Rosharan's and thus bond the Scadrian.

in a contest between Rosharan magic and Scadrian magic, Rosharan is open to everyone even Scadrians and Scadrian magic is not open to anyone else so Rosharan's could end up facing practitioners of their own magic and Scadrian magic.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Of course a Lurcher or Coinshot with enough mass could affect trace metals.

Then how is a Lerasium Mistborn stronger?

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

FTL is due to scientific application of Allomancy. What we have seen is that Scadrial is on the verge of major scientific breakthroughs at this point which will be added to copperminds since that is their method of permanently storing knowledge.

And adding it to copperminds does what exactly? how does that help?

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yeah Timber picked Regals who matched their ideals even though they were the enemy of the other Radiants at the time. Assuming a Spren wont pick a person from Scadrial just because they are on the other side of conflict with Rosharan's is an invalid assumption based on the rules governing Spren. For example a Highspren might decide that a Scadrian has a more just cause than the Rosharan's and thus bond the Scadrian.

Being able to is not the same as will do it. They could have bonded Regals at any time, but thay didn't, they have chosen sides before they will choose sides again.

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

in a contest between Rosharan magic and Scadrian magic, Rosharan is open to everyone even Scadrians and Scadrian magic is not open to anyone else so Rosharan's could end up facing practitioners of their own magic and Scadrian magic.

Medailions let anyone use metalic arts.

[Bigmikey357]

@BenduLukeDid you read the excerpt from Sixth of the Dusk 2? Both Scadrial and Roshar are going to develop FTL and will likely be in conflict.  What we're talking about isn't what happens 100 or more years down the current Cosmere time-line.  We're talking about a hypothetical conflict between Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar. Neither of them have FTL or lasers or Star Wars tech. Revolvers and slow loading Rifles vs. Shardblades and Soulcasters. If that war started today, or at least in the next decade.  Neither side is pulling FTL or the H-bomb in that time. That Ettmetal bomb from SoScad ain't there yet. Antilight applications are not there yet.

[BenduLuke]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@BenduLukeDid you read the excerpt from Sixth of the Dusk 2? Both Scadrial and Roshar are going to develop FTL and will likely be in conflict.  What we're talking about isn't what happens 100 or more years down the current Cosmere time-line.  We're talking about a hypothetical conflict between Era 2 Scadrial and post-RoW Roshar. Neither of them have FTL or lasers or Star Wars tech. Revolvers and slow loading Rifles vs. Shardblades and Soulcasters. If that war started today, or at least in the next decade.  Neither side is pulling FTL or the H-bomb in that time. That Ettmetal bomb from SoScad ain't there yet. Antilight applications are not there yet.

Fair enough. I don't recall that excerpt. Era 2 scadrial can have steel compounders capable of moving at super sonic speeds who are capable of propelling devastating metallic incendiary rounds which could both neutralize Radiant healing and cause them to explode. That could be accomplished with a layered Potassium Magnesium Aluminum bullet unjacketed in most cases and jacketed in the case of use against armor.

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Then how is a Lerasium Mistborn stronger?

And adding it to copperminds does what exactly? how does that help?

Being able to is not the same as will do it. They could have bonded Regals at any time, but thay didn't, they have chosen sides before they will choose sides again.

Medailions let anyone use metalic arts.

Lerasium Misborn are generally stronger but compounders are specifically stronger in their area.

If you can't see how a information storage device helps I can't enlighten you.

Right and they can choose Scadrians at any time too.

Yes and fabrials allow anyone to use Rosharan magic so what is your point. Both Fabrials and Medalions are limited

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Lerasium Misborn are generally stronger but compounders are specifically stronger in their area.

You can pull harder, but you can't pull on trace metals, they don't have the power

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

If you can't see how a information storage device helps I can't enlighten you.

An information storage device that only you can access and causes you to forget any time you use it.

Verry useful

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Right and they can choose Scadrians at any time too.

If Scandrial is united so is Roshar.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes and fabrials allow anyone to use Rosharan magic so what is your point. Both Fabrials and Medalions are limited

Not really,

1 Fabrials require spren and stormlight, neither of which is availible to Scandrial

2. Medailians don't need to be recharged.

[therunner]

17 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Lerasium Misborn are generally stronger but compounders are specifically stronger in their area.

There are two kinds of strength talked about, allomantic strength and strength of pushes/pulls.

Allomantic strength comes from how close a connection to preservation they have (in the sense of modification of spiritweb, not in sense of ideals) and affect how much you can perceive and how much control you have (i.e. how small/detailed things you can effect). In this sense compounders are weaker the Lerasium mistborn, and no amount of compounding will change that, their base strength is what they were born with (barring adding hemalurgic spikes). Also note that even though Marsh could see trace metals, he could not affect them, even though he was/is one of the strongest Metalborn due to his spikes. Quote " Almost everything had metal in it - water, stone, glass... even human bodies.These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy - indeed, most Allomancers couldn't even sense them.""

Strength of individual pushes/pulls is affected by both allomantic strength and by weight of the user, here I-compounder could use compounding to overcome their comparative allomantic weakness to generate stronger pulls.

So while compounders can generate stronger pushes/pulls, they cannot affect trace metals, so stone/glass/water/bodies is a no go for them.

Edited March 5, 2021 by therunner
spelling

[BenduLuke]

11 hours ago, therunner said:

There are two kinds of strength talked about, allomantic strength and strength of pushes/pulls.

Allomantic strength comes from how close a connection to preservation they have (in the sense of modification of spiritweb, not in sense of ideals) and affect how much you can perceive and how much control you have (i.e. how small/detailed things you can effect). In this sense compounders are weaker the Lerasium mistborn, and no amount of compounding will change that, their base strength is what they were born with (barring adding hemalurgic spikes). Also note that even though Marsh could see trace metals, he could not affect them, even though he was/is one of the strongest Metalborn due to his spikes. Quote " Almost everything had metal in it - water, stone, glass... even human bodies.These metals were too diffuse to be affected by Allomancy - indeed, most Allomancers couldn't even sense them.""

Strength of individual pushes/pulls is affected by both allomantic strength and by weight of the user, here I-compounder could use compounding to overcome their comparative allomantic weakness to generate stronger pulls.

So while compounders can generate stronger pushes/pulls, they cannot affect trace metals, so stone/glass/water/bodies is a no go for them.

That is why I asked if there were metals in the Crem. In addition compounders build up an increased connection to the spirit web in their specialty so over time they would develop increased ability or strength over time. Wax because of the connection the BoM gave him could affect trace metals so the potential is there and might be built to as one became a savant.

[Frustration]

31 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That is why I asked if there were metals in the Crem. In addition compounders build up an increased connection to the spirit web in their specialty so over time they would develop increased ability or strength over time. Wax because of the connection the BoM gave him could affect trace metals so the potential is there and might be built to as one became a savant.

Simple Savanthood isn't enough to find tracemetals, the only people who have even come close to displaying that power are Fullborn, and held at least a portion of Preservation, or used the power of someone who has.

[BenduLuke]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Simple Savanthood isn't enough to find tracemetals, the only people who have even come close to displaying that power are Fullborn, and held at least a portion of Preservation, or used the power of someone who has.

Sorry Iron or Steel Savants particularly compounders could potentially reach the point that they could affect trace metals because they would have a stronger spiritual connection in that ability

A savant is someone who has used an Investiture-related ability so much that it has changed their physiology; at least Allomancy, Feruchemy,[1] and Surgebinding can lead to savants. The process involves one's spirit becoming infused with Investiture, causing changes in the Physical Realm.[2] Savantism brings a person closer to the Spiritual Realm.

[Frustration]

27 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Sorry Iron or Steel Savants particularly compounders could potentially reach the point that they could affect trace metals because they would have a stronger spiritual connection in that ability

A savant is someone who has used an Investiture-related ability so much that it has changed their physiology; at least Allomancy, Feruchemy,[1] and Surgebinding can lead to savants. The process involves one's spirit becoming infused with Investiture, causing changes in the Physical Realm.[2] Savantism brings a person closer to the Spiritual Realm.

Savantism isn't enough, it might get you closer but it's not going to get you there.

[BenduLuke]

12 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Savantism isn't enough, it might get you closer but it's not going to get you there.

Who says?

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Who says?

Basic logic

No example of Svantism is anywhere near strong enough to do that.

Savantism is about negetive side effects of using the power too much, not just an excuse to give characters new abilities.

And the people who have shown the ability to push on trace metals don't show any signs of Savantism.

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Frustration said:

Basic logic

No example of Svantism is anywhere near strong enough to do that.

Savantism is about negetive side effects of using the power too much, not just an excuse to give characters new abilities.

And the people who have shown the ability to push on trace metals don't show any signs of Savantism.

No though savantism can damage a person it is also about enhancing their ability. Both the damage and enhancement are related in most cases. Trace metals in the body because of the rules of investiture are almost impossible to push on, but outside the body if it can be sensed it can be pushed unless it is invested some how. While I waited for your response I looked it up. There is no stated restriction on trace metals outside the body and developing the ability to sense them is possible to any steel or iron misting. We also don't yet know what the downside to Iron or Steel Savantism is. A compounder would likely be a double savant eventually.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

No though savantism can damage a person it is also about enhancing their ability. Both the damage and enhancement are related in most cases. Trace metals in the body because of the rules of investiture are almost impossible to push on, but outside the body if it can be sensed it can be pushed unless it is invested some how. While I waited for your response I looked it up. There is no stated restriction on trace metals outside the body and developing the ability to sense them is possible to any steel or iron misting. We also don't yet know what the downside to Iron or Steel Savantism is. A compounder would likely be a double savant eventually.

The fact that trace metals outside the body don't show up means they can't be pushed on.

Unless they get enough power to see them they can't push on them.

[BenduLuke]

Just now, Frustration said:

The fact that trace metals outside the body don't show up means they can't be pushed on.

Unless they get enough power to see them they can't push on them.

We have evidence in BoM that they can be. and Wax does show indications of becoming Savant. It isn't about power as in brute force but skill and or spiritual connection.

are you so confident your right that you don't take the time to research what you don't agree with? I know that I usually research things that people tell which contradict how I think they work like I did this time.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

We have evidence in BoM that they can be. and Wax does show indications of becoming Savant. It isn't about power as in brute force but skill and or spiritual connection.

Wax had the power that they would have showed up.

What signs does Wax show.

Simply being closer to the spiritual realm doesn't give you a stronger connection to Preservation.

 

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

are you so confident your right that you don't take the time to research what you don't agree with? I know that I usually research things that people tell which contradict how I think they work like I did this time.

If you have evidence to contradict what I've said I'm willing to see it.

[Bigmikey357]

Wax was only able to push on trace Metallic signifiers when he was holding the Bands. Without them and with his Savantism he could better see metal traces, can influence some to greater effect (the bullet scene when he was a child) and the steel bubble. But he's not all of a sudden bloodbending people.  Marsh can't even do that and all he sees is metal traces.

But let's say for the sake of argument that he could.  How many people would you say currently have this ability?  Wax is extraordinary but he's also an agent of Harmony, which could in theory be augmenting his abilities,  much in the same way Vin was boosted by Preservation.  You cannot take an obvious outlier and assume that what they achieve is the baseline for any user of an invested art.