Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

Just now, Anarchy said:

Stormlight is more potent then pewter.

Yes, but Vin didn't mention any effects after Duralumin+pewter, but after long burns of pewter she does.

Kal is the only one to notice a huge difference in between using stormlight and not, so I think it's more him than anything.

[Bigmikey357]

@The Technovore I like the analysis of Sun Tzu vs the Untouchables.  I was going to make many of the same points.  But I'd add that Roshar as Sun Tzu also has the equivalent of the Manhattan Project for their weapons development.  Currently Roshar is behind Scadrial's technology but Roshar can catch up even more quickly than baseline.  My argument has always been how long can Scadrial's technology advantage hold out with someone like Navani doing R & D on the other side? Roshar gets pounded early, adjusts quickly,  and breaks Scadrial eventually.

We are thinking about this the wrong way anyway.  The Scadrian strategy should always be stealth and infiltration instead of overwhelming uses of force, that going head to head against Roshar would be incredibly stupid,  at least without allies more experienced in war. That technology advantage is already drying up as we speak and their power set leans more towards subterfuge than outright punching matches against people who can alter landscapes. Plus, given the large propensity for Radiants to have mental health issues, Soothers and Rioters are the most dangerous forces Scadrial could employ. 

[+Bzhydack]

One think apear in my mind. Very wierd.

Both sides have possibility to disrupt enemy economy via Inflation.

On Scadrial they use metal coins, so they can be Soulcast.

On Roshar thy use gems as money, because they cannot be Soulcast so are difficult to fake. So need to be specificly harvest from specificly breeded creatures. But Scadrial should have technology to produce syntetic gems (this technology apear IRL around this time). Possibly even perfect gems.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@The Technovore That technology advantage is already drying up as we speak and their power set leans more towards subterfuge than outright punching matches against people who can alter landscapes. Plus, given the large propensity for Radiants to have mental health issues, Soothers and Rioters are the most dangerous forces Scadrial could employ. 

Only problem is they have to push through a Radiants investiture.

15 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

One think apear in my mind. Very wierd.

Both sides have possibility to disrupt enemy economy via Inflation.

On Scadrial they use metal coins, so they can be Soulcast.

On Roshar thy use gems as money, because they cannot be Soulcast so are difficult to fake. So need to be specificly harvest from specificly breeded creatures. But Scadrial should have technology to produce syntetic gems (this technology apear IRL around this time). Possibly even perfect gems.

That is terrifying.

[therunner]

47 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

One think apear in my mind. Very wierd.

Both sides have possibility to disrupt enemy economy via Inflation.

On Scadrial they use metal coins, so they can be Soulcast.

On Roshar thy use gems as money, because they cannot be Soulcast so are difficult to fake. So need to be specificly harvest from specificly breeded creatures. But Scadrial should have technology to produce syntetic gems (this technology apear IRL around this time). Possibly even perfect gems.

Economic warfare is definitely a novel way of approaching this conflict. To me it seems that Roshar would be less affected than Scadrial, as the gems can be used up by fabrials, or by surgebinders, as with repeated use they seem to crack/fracture to smaller parts which are less valueable. If then they cannot obtain enough gemhearts to replenish the losses (say due to increase in use due to warfare/increasing industrial use of fabrials) the gems as currency become deflationary. In this case Scadrials attampted attack might end up benefiting Rosharans.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, therunner said:

Economic warfare is definitely a novel way of approaching this conflict. To me it seems that Roshar would be less affected than Scadrial, as the gems can be used up by fabrials, or by surgebinders, as with repeated use they seem to crack/fracture to smaller parts which are less valueable. If then they cannot obtain enough gemhearts to replenish the losses (say due to increase in use due to warfare/increasing industrial use of fabrials) the gems as currency become deflationary. In this case Scadrials attampted attack might end up benefiting Rosharans.

Scandrians can also burn the excess metal, though admittadly at a much slower rate

[therunner]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Scandrians can also burn the excess metal, though admittadly at a much slower rate

I was thinking about that as well, but in addition to their slower burn rate I would also think that most coins would not be made from material which is allomatically viable (i.e. the alloys would have wrong ratio). Of course this assumption could be wrong, but if I was in charge of treasury I would not want to make coinage which people could burn away. So Rosharans counterfeits would first need to be smelted down and purified before they would become viable, which might not be economically viable.

[The Technovore]

I thought of a cool thing I could see the Scadrians doing for their shock troops. And a way Iron Compounders could be very useful.

Terrisblades

Spoiler

 

If you put an attribute in a metalmind, and then alloy it, the investiture becomes unaccessible but is still there, still in the metal. 

So, if one filled a bunch of Iron metal with Weight, then alloyed it into steel, and then made that steel into a blade... well you'd have an invested metal sword that would be able to withstand a hit from a shardblade. These "Terrisblades" could be given to Allomancer shock troops to improve their chances against a Radiant or Shardbearer. The "Terrisblades" would likely still break after a few strikes from a Shard and wouldn't have any other special properties, but it'd still have a multitude of benefits just by virtue of being "manufacturable metal that can stop a shard". 

Iron Compounders would be crucial to this because their ability to multiply their Investiture makes producing TerrisSteel quick and easy. Steel Compounders could do the same but they'd likely be more useful on the field itself. 

 

I think the thing with Twinborn combinations is that if Scadrial decided to throw their morals out you don't necessarily need to wait for the right Twinborn to be... born. You could just... use some spikes on some Misting and Ferrings... and make as many compounders as you want   Sazed wouldn't be happy with that though.

Another thought... Bondsmiths have a lot of Spiritual Realm powers, the ability to see and mess with Connections, and amazing things like that. We haven't seen the full extent or limits of their abilities yet. Couldn't it be possible for a Bondsmith to just... make some metalborn? Because it's not like the Nahel bond where it requires oaths with living Investiture... it's a line in your Spiritual DNA that says "This person can burn metals" or "This person can screw around with their own Spiritweb". If a Bondsmith was skilled enough couldn't they just... put that line in there? I might be totally off, but I thought it was worth bringing up. How terrifying would a Mistborn Windrunner be?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

I think the thing with Twinborn combinations is that if Scadrial decided to throw their morals out you don't necessarily need to wait for the right Twinborn to be... born. You could just... use some spikes on some Misting and Ferrings... and make as many compounders as you want   Sazed wouldn't be happy with that though.

It also leaves them vulnerable to Bondsmiths taking them over.

[The Technovore]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

It also leaves them vulnerable to Bondsmiths taking them over.

A few Radiant Orders might seriously object, but I think the Rosharans in the middle of a planet-scale conflict wouldn't have a problem using Hemalurgy if they found out it existed. They'd do everything from spiking metalborn so the Bondsmiths can step to enhancing themselves. Which could then lead to them identifying what it is that makes the metalborn metalborn, which could lead to Bondsmiths just endowing their Radiants with Feruchemy and Allomancy... oh no how terrifying,

Surely Bondsmiths can't actually just make people metalborn. That'd be so stupidly broken, no way Sanderson allows that.

(Give Hoid Feruchemy and he'd be so Invested he could punch T-Odium in the face in all three realms.)

[Frustration]

Just now, The Technovore said:

(Give Hoid Feruchemy and he'd be so Invested he could punch T-Odium in the face in all three realms.)

He might have it,

1 minute ago, The Technovore said:

A few Radiant Orders might seriously object, but I think the Rosharans in the middle of a planet-scale conflict wouldn't have a problem using Hemalurgy if they found out it existed. They'd do everything from spiking metalborn so the Bondsmiths can step to enhancing themselves. Which could then lead to them identifying what it is that makes the metalborn metalborn, which could lead to Bondsmiths just endowing their Radiants with Feruchemy and Allomancy... oh no how terrifying,

I was meaning like the Soothing, break into and control them.

1 minute ago, The Technovore said:

Surely Bondsmiths can't actually just make people metalborn. That'd be so stupidly broken, no way Sanderson allows that.

Evidence that Honor comes back?

[The Technovore]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He might have it,

I was meaning like the Soothing, break into and control them.

Evidence that Honor comes back?

Sorry, I knew what you meant but my grammar was crappy. That was meant to say "...so the Bondsmiths could step IN, to enhancing themselves with captured metalborn."

Lol, I like imagining Tanavast coming back from the dead just to slap the unfettered Bondsmiths for completely breaking the system and making everyone into Shards.

EDIT: I check to see if the WoBs had anything to say about Bondsmiths endowing abilities--apparently no one's thought to ask along this line of thought. The spiritual side of Bondsmiths is not well understood so it could be possible. I almost hope it isn't for the Cosmere's sake.

Edited March 1, 2021 by The Technovore

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

Sorry, I knew what you meant but my grammar was crappy. That was meant to say "...so the Bondsmiths could step IN, to enhancing themselves with captured metalborn."

Lol, I like imagining Tanavast coming back from the dead just to slap the unfettered Bondsmiths for completely breaking the system and making everyone into Shards.

EDIT: I check to see if the WoBs had anything to say about Bondsmiths endowing abilities--apparently no one's thought to ask along this line of thought. The spiritual side of Bondsmiths is not well understood so it could be possible. I almost hope it isn't for the Cosmere's sake.

Heres a WoB if anyone wondered

Spoiler

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

That would be funny.

[The Unknown Ajah]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

Heres a WoB if anyone wondered

  Hide contents

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

That would be funny.

That happened in a RP.

[BenduLuke]

On 2/28/2021 at 10:15 AM, The Technovore said:

Okay, I'm going to put these in spoilered sections because there's a lot I want to cover.

Tactics: Chicago PD versus Sun Tzu

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> The main debate I see here is whether or not Scadrial has viable combat tactics. Benduluke argues they absolutely do, and Frustration asserts that no standing military means no effective combat strategy. Now I would argue that Scadrial does have effective combat strategy. We see allomancers, feruchemists, and twinborn on both sides of the law, which in terms of firepower, is about equivalent to Al Capone versus the Chicago PD. We see that the Luthadel police force is significant and well-armed, as are the Set and other criminal organizations. This situation does require effective combat strategy. Espionage, infiltration, collateral damage management, resource management and sabotage, research and development, and arms training. You could rely the higher-ups in Luthadel law enforcement and Elendel defense to be sound thinkers and strategists in their territory.

 Contrast this to the situation we see on Roshar. Roshar is a land war in Asia. Vast swaths of farmland and village networks that are contested for by large lumbering armies of troops. This is changing rapidly thanks to Radiants and Fused as shock troops but so far this is the prevailing war doctrine. Like Frustration pointed out, this makes the tactical thinkers the equivalent of Sun Tzu. Supply lines, resource security and denial, training the troops, leading with honor, gaining the trust of the civilians and soldiers, terrain and numbers management are the names of the game. Radiants and Fused and R&D are quickly coming to replace them, but on Roshar as it stands in RoW (because we won't be able to compare the two planets Apples to Apples until TLM and SA 6 some out), those things are augments to Sun Tzu doctorine.

Now, consider what would happen if the Prohibition-era Police Chief of Chicago went up against Sun Tzu. In this case, it would depend entirely on the terrain. Chicago PD would be hunted, trapped, and massacred in Asia, but Sun Tzu would be outmatched and outgunned in Chicago. Now consider if the Police Chief of Chicago had to lead a land war in Asia, and Tzu had to fight Al Capone. 

I see the skills of the Chief translating well over to large-scale war. He'd be elated to finally have the shackles of state law taken off and being able to go all-out against an enemy. They'd be competent in analyzing enemy movements, in working out the enemy terrain, enemy technology, countering their tactics, etc. They'd adapt quickly to most of the facets of war. They would, however, have a difficult time dealing with the extraordinary increase in logistical needs, resource management, and most of all, troop-training. Infantry ranks are different from police ranks, different requirements, different standards, different needs. They would simply not have the expertise they'd need to train men to suffer in hostile terrain, or to stay in formation during combat, nor would they be able to provide sufficiently for the army's needs and would suffer for it. 

I see some of the skills of Sun Tzu also translating well to Chicago, after a rough adjustment period. The principles of leadership, troop training, and organization would translate quickly, but the complexities of urban gang warfare would be an incredibly steep learning curve, and would make for costly mistakes if he was not careful. Perhaps career-ending mistakes. But his military genius, which was built in a crucible of difficult land wars, would mean that fundamental tactics and strategy could make for a great success, should he survive the adjustment period.

Here's how the metaphor translates. Scadrial's adjustment period into dealing with large-scale warfare would be rough and costly. They have most of what it takes down, and superior technology, but their ability to train and rally armies to deal with the horrors and physical strain of war would be inadequate for a long time, and their resource management would be poor. This does not necessarily spell their doom (see; the Union's ineptitude in the Civil war), but is a terrible disadvantage, which gives Roshar plenty of time to close the technology gap. I would see a Scadrian offensive slowing to a horrible crawl very quickly, and a Scadrian defensive being frantic and unorganized.

Roshar on the other hand, would have a lot on their hands with the new technology, and dealing with another completely alien and unfamiliar magic system. Radiants would fall to Mistborn or Compounders, and Ettmetal bombs would lead to multiple sore losses for them. However, having dealt with a similar situation just 15 years ago, after going through the crucible of the Desolations, which allowed them to grow used to magic-laden war would mean that for the most part their abilities would translate and evolve well. I see a Rosharan offensive suffereing extreme losses while gaining ground, and a Rosharan defensive being stalwart but destructive and costly.

The conclusion: Yes, Scadrial has tactics; yes, Rosharan military development is superior. Yes, Scadrial has tech advantage; yes, Rosharans can close the gap. <

 

whew, that's done. Now for my final takedown of Benduluke's concepts of compounding bending fundamental physics.

Concerning Compounding

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> The reason why Iron Compounding can never attain superplantary mass, and why Steel Compounding is very unlikely to exceed lightspeed, has nothing to do with the laws of physics or the maths, but with the fundamentals of Feruchemy and Allomancy themselves. 

Feruchemy is the art of using metals to manipulate, store, and unleash the innate investiture and Spiritweb of the Feruchemist. There is, however, an upper limit to the ability for a Feruchemist to store an attribute. This is the size of the metal itself. Stored Investiture takes up "space" in the metal, and as the size of the metal increases, the increase in storable Investiture lessens. There is a law of diminishing returns. 

There is also a limit to Allomantic power. An allomancer has three settings on their burning: burning, flaring, and duralumin. Allomancy works by allowing the user to tap into the power of the Shard to fuel the effects, and increased allomantic power means increased ability to burn metals, and greater effect from the metals, maxing out at Lerasium Mistborn. 

This, together with the upper limits of Feruchemy, by logical reasoning means that there is indeed an upper limit to Compounding. Even with Duralumin-Compounding, Sanderson has said the effect would not be increased power, but causing the effects to last longer. (it's on the arcanum real long can't be bothered to copy it sorry)

Now, compounding, literally, is tapping into the power of the Shard through Allomancy, but using the Shard's power to fuel Feruchemy instead. This means that the upper limit of compounding can be no more then the capabilities of the Shard, and likely tops out far below the capabilities of a Shard. I can't find the WoB, but we know that Shards can't create black holes. We don't see Shards creating stars or planets either, but rather going to preexisting ones and Investing and forming humans. 

This throws out Benduluke's ideas about Iron compounders bending gravity through sheer mass gain. I'm sorry, but if the Shards can't create a planet's worth of mass, then there's no way they can fuel Investiture enough for a human to do so. This also means that Steel Compounding likely isn't going to break Lightspeed. MeLaan is the only steel compounder we see, and although she's faster than the eye, very fast indeed, she's not doing things like traveling cross-country in seconds, or going so fast she reaches escape velocity--something you'd do long before you reached Lightspeed.<

 

 

That also puts upper limits on the Fullborn's abilities. That's important, because if a Fullborn were able to continue to compound ever increasing amounts, they'd essentially be a Shard already. 

Oh my goodness I'm writing a book, whew. Alright, I want to keep going by talking about Electrum, Atium, and Copper, and how I think we might be underestimating Mistborn's chances against a Radiant. (I mean BenduLuke probably isn't but--)

 

Electrum & Atium

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> Electrum is the non-godmetal form of Atium. It produces largely the same effect by allowing the user to see their future and change it. However, Atium and Electrum have several major differences. Atium shows the future of others, Electrum your own future. Atium also enhances the user's mental capacity, letting them take in all the information and react instantly, making them very efficient killers, because Atium taps into Ruin's Investiture, not Preservations. 

Now, here's the thing in this matchup between Era 2 Scadrial and RoW Roshar. Atium no longer exists. Ruin no longer exists. Harmony is a single, self-contradictory shard, that would be extremely difficult to separate again, this is confirmed through WoB. Atium may be derived somehow from Harmonium, but this is likely not going to occur unless Harmony wills it. I propose, and this is just my opinion, that we should not be assuming Atium-burning Mistborn, but instead Electrum-burning Mistborn, because unless we are talking about Era 1, Mistborn would instead be using Electrum. <

 

 

 

 

Copper 

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> In a re-read of TFE, a line Kelsier said popped out to me as very significant. Copper makes the burner immune to emotional Allomancy. Why? I propose that it is because the burning of copper, in addition to suppressing the Rhythms, causes the allomancer to take on the properties of a heavily-invested material, like Shardblades and Metalminds. Consider the reasons this could be plausible. In Era 1 Scadrial, we see that four metals only affect the burner--copper, bronze, pewter, and tin. Of the four external metals, two of them only affect metal, not people. Only zinc and brass target other beings directly. 

If my hypothesis is correct, this could have big ramifications for Scadrian combatants dealing with Surgebinders. If Smokers are resistant to being targeted or affected by Investiture, that would make them immune to being Lashed, or targeted directly by any Surges, which would make Smokers the equivalent of Hazekillers against Surgebinders--relatively unpowered, but trained to counter their abilities.  <

 

 

 

 

Mistborn

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> Finally we come to the Mistborn. If my hypothesis about copper is correct, then that means that on top of having the ability to do the fancy iron-and-steel bludgeoning-you-with-an-ingot shenanigans, and the ability to mess with a Radiant's Investiture with Chromium and Nicrosil, and the ability to unexpectedly shift-location with Bendalloy, and the stormlight-mimicking effects of tin and pewter (no-healing) and the reliable Atium-lite abilities of Electrum, they are also personally resistant to any Surges the Radiant could attempt to put on them. No Division, no Lashing into the sky or ground, no Adhesion, no Abrasion-slicking, none of that. Obviously all the surges can be used, but several of their applications are gone. There are still plenty of ways to kill a Mistborn. Sinking them into stone, soulcasting the air around them to crystal, encasement in Aluminum, Lashing rocks high-speed at them, literally just touching them with a sprenblade. 

I would conclude that if a Oath 3 Radiant went up against a Mistborn without knowing what a Mistborn was, but a Mistborn knew about Radiants, the Radiant would die almost immediately. Even an Oath 4 caught unawares I would mark as dead. If both the Radiant and the Mistborn knew about each other though, I think the Mistborn would still be most likely to win, (even with Oath 4), and the Radiant would have to be extremely tricksy to overcome them. 

Conversely, a Radiant who knew about Mistborn attacking a Mistborn who's never met a Radiant would still have a good chance, but they'd better start with something to immobilize the Scadrian because they're not sneaking up on them and Surges wouldn't apply.

Obviously Bondsmiths don't apply, the spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo probably trumps all of that. <

 

Alright, my word processor is telling me I'm at over 2,000 words, so I'm going to stop before I accidentally re-write Elantris. Hopefully this provides some satisfactory analysis and middle-ground for some of these arguments, and I hope a discussion about the applications of A-copper sparks somewhere but I think that could be very interesting. 

To those who have read all that: Thank you, and good job!

Let me say first I loved your synopsis and your speculation. I did mention that one of the limits of Twinborn is the storage capacity of the metal, and given that 1 or 2 arm bands on Wax allowed him to store enough weight to crash through a floor while in a time bubble (that gave the increased weight time to work on the floor), a full suit of Iron armor would allow for a massive storage capacity and being invested would be resistant to shards. Steel running hits a max threashold at the point of the friction and windresistance damage to the runner long before the speed of light but still past the speed of sound (775 mph at sea level) and with steel armor used as a metal mind much faster for longer and again resistant to shards. For that matter any compounder could have shard resistant metal armor.

Modern war no longer uses strict battle lines and if they did it would leave them sitting ducks to modern weapons thus Sun Tzu's tactics only partially translate to success and only in the abstract. 

I think you are partially on to something with Electrum. It allows one to see their own future and if you could see far enough you might anticipate what someone else would do. One interesting combination could be Electrum-A with Tin-F since Electrum gives a future sense and Tin can store any sense (Bronze, Iron, Steel, etc...) it is not restricted to the normal 5. Electrum armor would be nearly invulnerable to Lasers because of how reflective it is.

On 3/1/2021 at 0:34 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

@The Technovore I like the analysis of Sun Tzu vs the Untouchables.  I was going to make many of the same points.  But I'd add that Roshar as Sun Tzu also has the equivalent of the Manhattan Project for their weapons development.  Currently Roshar is behind Scadrial's technology but Roshar can catch up even more quickly than baseline.  My argument has always been how long can Scadrial's technology advantage hold out with someone like Navani doing R & D on the other side? Roshar gets pounded early, adjusts quickly,  and breaks Scadrial eventually.

We are thinking about this the wrong way anyway.  The Scadrian strategy should always be stealth and infiltration instead of overwhelming uses of force, that going head to head against Roshar would be incredibly stupid,  at least without allies more experienced in war. That technology advantage is already drying up as we speak and their power set leans more towards subterfuge than outright punching matches against people who can alter landscapes. Plus, given the large propensity for Radiants to have mental health issues, Soothers and Rioters are the most dangerous forces Scadrial could employ. 

The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up. I think Scadrial would embrace Rosharan science much faster due to their more advanced state and more grounded magic. I have to agree that emotional allomancers could prove to be a challenge to Rosharan's

On 3/1/2021 at 0:00 PM, The Technovore said:

A few Radiant Orders might seriously object, but I think the Rosharans in the middle of a planet-scale conflict wouldn't have a problem using Hemalurgy if they found out it existed. They'd do everything from spiking metalborn so the Bondsmiths can step to enhancing themselves. Which could then lead to them identifying what it is that makes the metalborn metalborn, which could lead to Bondsmiths just endowing their Radiants with Feruchemy and Allomancy... oh no how terrifying,

Surely Bondsmiths can't actually just make people metalborn. That'd be so stupidly broken, no way Sanderson allows that.

(Give Hoid Feruchemy and he'd be so Invested he could punch T-Odium in the face in all three realms.)

Rosharan's are unlikely to use Hemalurgy due to their oaths, especially Bondsmiths, but no such restriction exists for Scadrian's. I would expect to see a metal born being granted Radiant status at some point, but find it far less likely to happen in reverse since Spren are attracted to those who exemplify their values regardless of origin.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up. I think Scadrial would embrace Rosharan science much faster due to their more advanced state and more grounded magic. 

If that where the case Brittan would have had the Manhattan project not the US, because they had the Industrial revelution first.

And what do you mean by more grounded?

11 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I have to agree that emotional allomancers could prove to be a challenge to Rosharan's

Again Investiture resists investiture, manipulating emotion means you have to push through a Radiants investiture.

13 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Rosharan's are unlikely to use Hemalurgy due to their oaths, especially Bondsmiths, but no such restriction exists for Scadrian's. I would expect to see a metal born being granted Radiant status at some point, but find it far less likely to happen in reverse since Spren are attracted to those who exemplify their values regardless of origin.

I've had this argument with you about five times by now, getting to Roshar, through enemy lines and bonding a spren that veiws you as the enemy is far harder than you are implying.

[BenduLuke]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that where the case Brittan would have had the Manhattan project not the US, because they had the Industrial revelution first.

And what do you mean by more grounded?

Again Investiture resists investiture, manipulating emotion means you have to push through a Radiants investiture.

I've had this argument with you about five times by now, getting to Roshar, through enemy lines and bonding a spren that veiws you as the enemy is far harder than you are implying.

Again you make the mistake of comparing cultures which are at the same tech level in your example, but this is not the case with Scadrial and Roshar. Their tech levels are centuries apart not years or decades.

The innate nature of Scadrian magic is grounded in physical laws operable everywhere. Roshar's magic only works under certain conditions in certain places at least until the work out how to convert their power source. Rosharan's lose everywhere they have a conflict with Scadrian's except on Roshar.

There has been no indication that Stormlight investiture resists emotional attacks, in fact the opposite seems to be true. The most effective way to remove either Kal or Shallon has been emotionally.

Nothing says that Scadrian's need to sneak through enemy lines to bond Spren. Nothing except you opinion says Spen would view Scadrian's as enemies. Spren are attracted to people who exemplify their values so if a Scadrian exemplifies the value that Attracts a Spren they could become a Radiant regardless if there is a war between Roshar and Scadrial.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up. I think Scadrial would embrace Rosharan science much faster due to their more advanced state and more grounded magic. I have to agree that emotional allomancers could prove to be a challenge to Rosharan's

The Manhattan Project is already happening on Roshar.  They are after all already in the middle of a global spanning war of annihilation.  They already have the greatest minds available to them gathered in one place. They have already come up with a weapon with Cosmere spanning implications.  Scadrial OTOH hasn't even passed the first stage of this. And the best technological scholar they have is an antisocial recluse with absolutely no political power and no interest in such. Nor do they have the type of political system to optimize their technological advantages in peacetime.  It takes time to build up a war machine and Scadrial isn't even in the starting block. 

Also,  while science and technology generally go hand in hand, it's not exactly the same. I don't know if Scadrial's scientific understanding exceeds Roshar  by any great measure or even at all. The one thing we know for sure is Scadrial's metallurgy is far superior,  makes sense since metal is the basis for their magic system.  But TLR repressed nearly every other technological advance for over 1000 years. Roshar has had over 2000 years of scientific research experience, limited only by the low relative metal deposits and higher than average oxygen in their atmosphere. 

Another thing to think about.  If Roshar comes to Scadrial they will have some issues.  Higher gravity,  lower oxygen,  and advancing on a world with better weapons.  But they have much easier access to food there, the Elend basin is ridiculously fertile. But if Scadrial goes to Roshar their adjustment period would be harder. They wouldn't know how to deal with category 5 hurricanes every 2 weeks. Their vaunted weapons would blow up in their faces half the time because everything they use is much more flammable.  It would be harder for them to produce steel locally because the gas mix would be off. Kelsier is doing it the right way for Scadrial. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Again you make the mistake of comparing cultures which are at the same tech level in your example, but this is not the case with Scadrial and Roshar. Their tech levels are centuries apart not years or decades.

First off, Roshar is not as far behind as you claim, you are only thinking in terms of how our world progressed, second off Scandrial is progressing incredibly slowly, if they actually tried they would already have radio, but they don't.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

The innate nature of Scadrian magic is grounded in physical laws operable everywhere. Roshar's magic only works under certain conditions in certain places at least until the work out how to convert their power source. Rosharan's lose everywhere they have a conflict with Scadrian's except on Roshar.

All magic systems work on basic laws of the cosmere so I'm not sure what you're saying.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

There has been no indication that Stormlight investiture resists emotional attacks, in fact the opposite seems to be true. The most effective way to remove either Kal or Shallon has been emotionally.

Emotional Allomancy, not attacks, phycological warefare is still efective, emotional magic, is not.

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Nothing says that Scadrian's need to sneak through enemy lines to bond Spren. Nothing except you opinion says Spen would view Scadrian's as enemies. Spren are attracted to people who exemplify their values so if a Scadrian exemplifies the value that Attracts a Spren they could become a Radiant regardless if there is a war between Roshar and Scadrial.

Did you read RoW? spren can and do take sides in conflicts.

[The Technovore]

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It allows one to see their own future and if you could see far enough you might anticipate what someone else would do.

I appreciate the appreciation, I think a twinborn combination that could make the equivalent of a Seer would be A-Electrum/F-Zinc, the tapped zinc replicating the mind-enhancing effects of Atium. 

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

full suit of Iron armor would allow for a massive storage capacity and being invested would be resistant to shards

I am in full support of "TerrisPlate", I think it would be awesome, but the main point being that Allomancy only burns so fast means that a Iron-Compounder in full iron plate would be able to be really heavy for a really long time. Cool, but not galaxy-breaking cool.

 

Also, concerning the whole "Bondsmiths and Metalborn", I've done some discussing with other knowledgeable Sharders, and have determined it to be "Unlikely to Impossible", because a Spiritweb is made up of Connection+Investiture, Connection being more "strands of time" and your destiny than your abilities. We'll have to see whether a Bondsmith has full Spiritweb manipulation, but from what we know at RoW, there's no reason to believe it will happen

 

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Rosharan's are unlikely to use Hemalurgy due to their oaths, especially Bondsmiths, but no such restriction exists for Scadrian's.

The thing with this is that while Hemalurgy is detestable, I wouldn't see the Skybreakers disagreeing with it if it was an enemy combatant and the practice could be done in the form of a quick execution. I can similarly see most of the other Orders having similar rationalizations, remember, with Honor dead there's no governing oversight on Oaths and Surges. It's literally a plot point that the Radiants have the power to potentially crack their planet open right now. The only group I can really see objecting would be Bondsmiths and Windrunners, but due to the autonomy of the individual orders, in this hypothetical I would not rule out at least some Radiant+Metalborn Rosharans.

 

3 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

The Manhattan project is more likely to occur on Scadrial before Roshar due to the Tech head start there. I would disagree that Roshar would catch up.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Someone brought up Scadrial representing the chaotic alignment and Roshar representing the lawful. Lawful alignment tends to facilitate greater technological speed. It's also literally a plot point that Scadrian technological development has slowed due to NoScad being coddled. @Bigmikey357 is right that Roshar already has an equivalent of the Manhattan project that has already discovered splitting the atom at Urithiru. Urithiru's not going to disappear in the 20 years leading up to their position in this hypothetical. I wouldn't rule out Scadrial doing something similar once the war has begun, but I would call it a plot hole if SA 8 had Scad and Roshar in the throes of civil war and Roshar wasn't doing anything to catch up. That's my argument, again, agree to disagree.

 

57 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There has been no indication that Stormlight investiture resists emotional attacks, in fact the opposite seems to be true. The most effective way to remove either Kal or Shallon has been emotionally.

You're right we don't see Stormlight resisting emotional allomancy, because this is all a hypothetical, but we know that kandra are resistant to emotional allomancy, as are Koloss, as are mistborn (most especially copper-burning) because of their invested nature. It's a principle of the cosmere that Invested object resist being manipulated by Investiture, therefore it is not a fallacy to assume that a Radiant would be resistant to Zinc and Brass. Psychological warfare, like @Frustration, absolutely viable. Brass and Zinc not so much.

I'm actually with @BenduLuke on the Radiant Scadrian thing. Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, and a few other orders would definitely see spren taking sides, but spren are capable of rebelliousness and some types value different things than others. Just like some Orders but not others would justify hemalurgy, some spren but not most would justify bonding with Scadrians. 

I want to bring up Fabrials again. We don't know a ton about this magic system yet, but I suspect that Fabrials will be to Roshar as Hemalurgy is to Scadrial--the thing that really opens up the system to all kinds of unique and game-changing effects. 15 years before Era 2 Scad Roshar is working out how to replicate (poorly) some of the Surges, and if they can make some of the Heralds sane combined with Navani they could do a lot of incredible things. There's a lot of combinations between gem types, metal types, and spren, which means we could have a lot of effects that could be used for non-Radiant shock troopers to annoy the Scadrians. Painrials are definitely one thing, especially useful since they're at range. I could see some fabrial that acts like a-chromium, or inflicts the effect of storing f-steel, or just straight up blocking investiture of all types. I could see fabrials-and-medallion science absolutely being the arms race of the War, which admittedly the Scadrians would have the advantage on since they can mess with medallions in a way that the Rosharans really can't.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, The Technovore said:

I want to bring up Fabrials again. We don't know a ton about this magic system yet, but I suspect that Fabrials will be to Roshar as Hemalurgy is to Scadrial--the thing that really opens up the system to all kinds of unique and game-changing effects. 15 years before Era 2 Scad Roshar is working out how to replicate (poorly) some of the Surges, and if they can make some of the Heralds sane combined with Navani they could do a lot of incredible things. There's a lot of combinations between gem types, metal types, and spren, which means we could have a lot of effects that could be used for non-Radiant shock troopers to annoy the Scadrians. Painrials are definitely one thing, especially useful since they're at range. I could see some fabrial that acts like a-chromium, or inflicts the effect of storing f-steel, or just straight up blocking investiture of all types. I could see fabrials-and-medallion science absolutely being the arms race of the War, which admittedly the Scadrians would have the advantage on since they can mess with medallions in a way that the Rosharans really can't.

That's true, but discovering Scandrian metalic arts will be a larger gain for Rosharan Fabrials than Scandrials medalions will get for interacting with Rosharans.

[Bigmikey357]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's true, but discovering Scandrian metalic arts will be a larger gain for Rosharan Fabrials than Scandrials medalions will get for interacting with Rosharans.

Just wait until Roshar gets a peek at temporal metals and start incorporating them into Fabrial cages. Hell if Kriss accidentally dropped an Allomancy chart somewhere Navani could see it I think Roshar becomes absolutely terrifying in yet another way.  Admittedly that's more long term, but by the time the actual clash between these 2 becomes Canon they both will be so close tech wise that it'll be a  challenge to see who's better.  Hell it's close to a toss up right now as 35 or so pages on this thread alone can attest. 

[apepi]

Odd thought...do we know if Scadrian magic is stronger with the two shards combining? Is Allomancy and Feruchemy stronger? Or is that not how it works because those powers are somewhat a part of the individual shards?(well, with Feruchemy being both) Does that mean if there is not stronger magic, is there more quantity of it then?

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, apepi said:

Odd thought...do we know if Scadrian magic is stronger with the two shards combining? Is Allomancy and Feruchemy stronger? Or is that not how it works because those powers are somewhat a part of the individual shards?(well, with Feruchemy being both) Does that mean if there is not stronger magic, is there more quantity of it then?

The two shards combining had no significant effect.

[BenduLuke]

22 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Manhattan Project is already happening on Roshar.  They are after all already in the middle of a global spanning war of annihilation.  They already have the greatest minds available to them gathered in one place. They have already come up with a weapon with Cosmere spanning implications.  Scadrial OTOH hasn't even passed the first stage of this. And the best technological scholar they have is an antisocial recluse with absolutely no political power and no interest in such. Nor do they have the type of political system to optimize their technological advantages in peacetime.  It takes time to build up a war machine and Scadrial isn't even in the starting block. 

Also,  while science and technology generally go hand in hand, it's not exactly the same. I don't know if Scadrial's scientific understanding exceeds Roshar  by any great measure or even at all. The one thing we know for sure is Scadrial's metallurgy is far superior,  makes sense since metal is the basis for their magic system.  But TLR repressed nearly every other technological advance for over 1000 years. Roshar has had over 2000 years of scientific research experience, limited only by the low relative metal deposits and higher than average oxygen in their atmosphere. 

Another thing to think about.  If Roshar comes to Scadrial they will have some issues.  Higher gravity,  lower oxygen,  and advancing on a world with better weapons.  But they have much easier access to food there, the Elend basin is ridiculously fertile. But if Scadrial goes to Roshar their adjustment period would be harder. They wouldn't know how to deal with category 5 hurricanes every 2 weeks. Their vaunted weapons would blow up in their faces half the time because everything they use is much more flammable.  It would be harder for them to produce steel locally because the gas mix would be off. Kelsier is doing it the right way for Scadrial. 

Along with metallurgy comes chemistry. In addition some of the metal arts deal with an understanding of vector physics. There are vast stores of scientific knowlege in copperminds and scholar researchers working with that copper library.

I wasn't aware of the environmental differences between Scadrial and Roshar. Given what you said Scadrial's explosives and projectiles would be that much more effective. Those same cat 5 hurricanes might provide the key to convert investiture for Scadrian's, but they could be a bit of a shock in the beginning except that Scadrian's will likely arrive at Roshar from space and may be in a position to observe them before landing.

19 hours ago, The Technovore said:

I appreciate the appreciation, I think a twinborn combination that could make the equivalent of a Seer would be A-Electrum/F-Zinc, the tapped zinc replicating the mind-enhancing effects of Atium. 

I am in full support of "TerrisPlate", I think it would be awesome, but the main point being that Allomancy only burns so fast means that a Iron-Compounder in full iron plate would be able to be really heavy for a really long time. Cool, but not galaxy-breaking cool.

 

Also, concerning the whole "Bondsmiths and Metalborn", I've done some discussing with other knowledgeable Sharders, and have determined it to be "Unlikely to Impossible", because a Spiritweb is made up of Connection+Investiture, Connection being more "strands of time" and your destiny than your abilities. We'll have to see whether a Bondsmith has full Spiritweb manipulation, but from what we know at RoW, there's no reason to believe it will happen

 

The thing with this is that while Hemalurgy is detestable, I wouldn't see the Skybreakers disagreeing with it if it was an enemy combatant and the practice could be done in the form of a quick execution. I can similarly see most of the other Orders having similar rationalizations, remember, with Honor dead there's no governing oversight on Oaths and Surges. It's literally a plot point that the Radiants have the power to potentially crack their planet open right now. The only group I can really see objecting would be Bondsmiths and Windrunners, but due to the autonomy of the individual orders, in this hypothetical I would not rule out at least some Radiant+Metalborn Rosharans.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. Someone brought up Scadrial representing the chaotic alignment and Roshar representing the lawful. Lawful alignment tends to facilitate greater technological speed. It's also literally a plot point that Scadrian technological development has slowed due to NoScad being coddled. @Bigmikey357 is right that Roshar already has an equivalent of the Manhattan project that has already discovered splitting the atom at Urithiru. Urithiru's not going to disappear in the 20 years leading up to their position in this hypothetical. I wouldn't rule out Scadrial doing something similar once the war has begun, but I would call it a plot hole if SA 8 had Scad and Roshar in the throes of civil war and Roshar wasn't doing anything to catch up. That's my argument, again, agree to disagree.

 

You're right we don't see Stormlight resisting emotional allomancy, because this is all a hypothetical, but we know that kandra are resistant to emotional allomancy, as are Koloss, as are mistborn (most especially copper-burning) because of their invested nature. It's a principle of the cosmere that Invested object resist being manipulated by Investiture, therefore it is not a fallacy to assume that a Radiant would be resistant to Zinc and Brass. Psychological warfare, like @Frustration, absolutely viable. Brass and Zinc not so much.

I'm actually with @BenduLuke on the Radiant Scadrian thing. Windrunners, Bondsmiths, Skybreakers, and a few other orders would definitely see spren taking sides, but spren are capable of rebelliousness and some types value different things than others. Just like some Orders but not others would justify hemalurgy, some spren but not most would justify bonding with Scadrians. 

I want to bring up Fabrials again. We don't know a ton about this magic system yet, but I suspect that Fabrials will be to Roshar as Hemalurgy is to Scadrial--the thing that really opens up the system to all kinds of unique and game-changing effects. 15 years before Era 2 Scad Roshar is working out how to replicate (poorly) some of the Surges, and if they can make some of the Heralds sane combined with Navani they could do a lot of incredible things. There's a lot of combinations between gem types, metal types, and spren, which means we could have a lot of effects that could be used for non-Radiant shock troopers to annoy the Scadrians. Painrials are definitely one thing, especially useful since they're at range. I could see some fabrial that acts like a-chromium, or inflicts the effect of storing f-steel, or just straight up blocking investiture of all types. I could see fabrials-and-medallion science absolutely being the arms race of the War, which admittedly the Scadrians would have the advantage on since they can mess with medallions in a way that the Rosharans really can't.

F-zinc is a very versatile metal to combine with. A full feruchemical charge can be tapped almost instantly if needed or over an extended time. Metal pushes and pulls appear to be proportional to mass/weight/density, such that the more mass you have the stronger the pushes or pulls are. The use of those pushes or pulls also seems to be exponentially greater than the mass of the person employing them as shown by the fact that coinshots can launch themselves dozens of feet into the air and lurchers can pull themselves similarly all without duralumin. For a steel compounder velocity replaces mass for increasing pushes and Iron compounders can have insane mass to back up pulls limited by the surface presure beneath them if they are on the ground. All things fall at the same rate.

Does crem have a metallic component? If so an Iron compounder could spread out the surface area supporting their increased weight then slingshot out of the hole once they store the weight.

16 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Just wait until Roshar gets a peek at temporal metals and start incorporating them into Fabrial cages. Hell if Kriss accidentally dropped an Allomancy chart somewhere Navani could see it I think Roshar becomes absolutely terrifying in yet another way.  Admittedly that's more long term, but by the time the actual clash between these 2 becomes Canon they both will be so close tech wise that it'll be a  challenge to see who's better.  Hell it's close to a toss up right now as 35 or so pages on this thread alone can attest. 

I suspect that once Scadrial gets a look at fabrials with their knowledge of metals and metallurgy they will quickly advance in fabrial creation and use. At that point both Roshar and Scadrial will be in a run away positive scientific feed back loop where every advance in Fabrials on Roshar will catapult scadrian science ahead followed by Rosharan advances and so forth. Honestly though I actually think Scadrial and Roshar will be on the same side in the end combating a greater menace, perhaps Trell.

15 hours ago, apepi said:

Odd thought...do we know if Scadrian magic is stronger with the two shards combining? Is Allomancy and Feruchemy stronger? Or is that not how it works because those powers are somewhat a part of the individual shards?(well, with Feruchemy being both) Does that mean if there is not stronger magic, is there more quantity of it then?

For the most part Scadrian magic individually has less raw power than Rosharan magic individually, but is more widespread and endemic in the population, and is also more versatile. Feruchemy is actually one of the weaker forms of investure on its own, but when combined with allomancy can serve as a very high yield battery.