Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Fair

What we're saying is you're underestimating plates sstrength, especially it's durability.

Slings flung by Parshendi could crack Plate. No, I don't think I'm underestimating it.

1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Questioner

Who’d win, Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

On a battlefield Kaladin, off a battlefield probably Vin.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

My apologies, I thought the WoB I was thinking of mentioned Vin. It mentions an Atium misting. Meaning Brandon thinks that a Misting alone could beat Kaladin with Kaladin winning only if he exhausted their Atium. A Mistborn would have to be especially stupid to let it just burn while the Radiant was out of reach for the way Kaladin could win

Questioner

Who do you think would win, an atium misting, or Kaladin with Syl?

Brandon Sanderson

The atium misting, as long as they have enough atium, is probably got an advantage, but Kaladin can fly. So, I would bet on Kaladin, meaning he flies up high, waits 'til they run out of atium, then gets them

[StanLemon]

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The down side to this analysis is the shardplate. Normal plate armour cannot take several blows from maces  let alone from strength enhanced maces, yet shardplate handles this fine. It took minuets of Sadeas on the ground, a group of parshendi (strength enhanced warform) swinging with full body swings with maces/hammers, thats hundreds and hundreds of blows and Sadeas was still fine inside his shardplate. Guns, especially with duralium give much more stopping power, but thr amount they would need, if we assume they would work, is more than they can carry.

Brandon has straight up said it only takes a couple shots to break Plate 

[XS-Terrain]

21 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

@XS-Terrain the coppermind page overstates the damage, Dalinar got hit twice once on the shoulder, which only puffed stormlight no cracks, and once on the arm(I think the places are right) and it only cause small cracks, it would likely take four or more hit's in the smae place to break, without any healing.

You may be right about Shardplate being more sturdy. From The Way of Kings,

Quote

Something heavy hit his armor, banging off it, causing a small puff of Stormlight to escape between the joints along his upper arm. Dalinar cursed, raising an arm to protect his face while scanning the near distance. There, he thought, picking out a nearby rock formation where a group of Parshendi stood swinging enormous rock slings with two hands. The head-size stones crashed into Parshendi and Alethi alike, though Dalinar was obviously the target.
He growled as another one hit, smashing against his forearm, sending a soft jolt through the Shardplate. The blow was strong enough to send a small array of cracks through his right vambrace.

Nevertheless, I doubt that Shardplate would survive the 10 round magazine of a bolt-action rifle like the Lee-Enfield, with a trained Mistborn firing aimed, Steelpushed shots every 2-3 seconds, with likely more force than the rocks that the Parshendi were throwing.

EDIT: Thanks @StanLemon for bringing up the WOB, just looked it up and

Quote

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595

Edited December 8, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[BenduLuke]

If either knew about the abilities the other had, the advantage goes to the that one. Without foreknowledge the versatility and ranged abilities of the full mistborn may give them the edge particularly if they use Wax's trick of attaching aluminum or some other hard alomantically inert material to an alomantically active metal. Attach a gem stone to the aluminum/metal dart and you have investiture removing darts or edged discs at rifle speeds. Both Vin and Kelsior could handle many at once. Of course Kaladin might soon be imitating the projectile approach once he sees coinshot's and lurcher's in action.

So in my opinion Mistborn vs Radiant is not cut and dried and the advantage goes to the situation and location that the battle takes place. Besides I think the Radiants, Twinborn, and Fused will be fighting Trell in the not to distant future alongside one another. It seems as if in order for Radiants and Fused to fight on Scadrial then need to snap or use hemalurgy, but the Mistborn need only metal of which some are in abundance to fight on Roshar and they may be even more enhanced with a bond to a Spren.

who needs a rifle when you have a coin shot?

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by BenduLuke
added discussion link

[Lemiltock]

29 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Brandon has straight up said it only takes a couple shots to break Plate 

That quote is a with the right bullet in the right moment, not a yes and wax is not typical either.

23 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

You may be right about Shardplate being more sturdy. From The Way of Kings,

Nevertheless, I doubt that Shardplate would survive the 10 round magazine of a bolt-action rifle like the Lee-Enfield, with a trained Mistborn firing aimed, Steelpushed shots every 2-3 seconds, with likely more force than the rocks that the Parshendi were throwing.

Certainly more stopping power than said rocks, however, how many bullets are they carrying, can they hit a very fast moving target, what about if the radiant shoots back (woth either bow or gun) theyve got to hit a fast mast moving almost impenetrabale killing machine that is shooting back and hope they kill it before it gets to them. Easy money is still on the radiant.

23 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

EDIT: Thanks @StanLemon for bringing up the WOB, just looked it up and

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385/#e12595

This WoB as stated above is tenuous at best. Could it be done, by a steel savant whos almost supernaturally good with his gun, using the most advanced gun and bullet of his time with the right shot at the right moment. Thats not a person with gun beats shardplate, thats a wax has the skill and weaponry to get lucky.

[StanLemon]

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If either knew about the abilities the other had, the advantage goes to the that one. Without foreknowledge the versatility and ranged abilities of the full mistborn may give them the edge particularly if they use Wax's trick of attaching aluminum or some other hard alomantically inert material to an alomantically active metal. Attach a gem stone to the aluminum/metal dart and you have investiture removing darts or edged discs at rifle speeds. Both Vin and Kelsior could handle many at once. Of course Kaladin might soon be imitating the projectile approach once he sees coinshot's and lurcher's in action.

So in my opinion Mistborn vs Radiant is not cut and dried and the advantage goes to the situation and location that the battle takes place. Besides I think the Radiants, Twinborn, and Fused will be fighting Trell in the not to distant future alongside one another. It seems as if in order for Radiants and Fused to fight on Scadrial then need to snap or use hemalurgy, but the Mistborn need only metal of which some are in abundance to fight on Roshar and they may be even more enhanced with a bond to a Spren.

who needs a rifle when you have a coin shot?

This is really the best response on here. It encapsulates Brandon's own words on it where he says it depends on the situation and Order. Not "Radiants win"

Maria Goulet‏

Radiant vs. Mistborn: who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the situation and the Radiant order.

[Lemiltock]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is really the best response on here. It encapsulates Brandon's own words on it where he says it depends on the situation and Order. Not "Radiants win"

 

In a 1v1 fight a radiant (4th oath or higher) wins, without taking into account the specific orders powers, in an assasination attempt, maybe, the mistborn. At the 3rd oath its a more interesting fight and comes down to if the mistborn can not be hit, below the third the mistborn has the advantage. This is due to the clear stopping power advantage of a shardblade, and then for 4th and up the huge defense offered by shardplate.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If either knew about the abilities the other had, the advantage goes to the that one. Without foreknowledge the versatility and ranged abilities of the full mistborn may give them the edge particularly if they use Wax's trick of attaching aluminum or some other hard alomantically inert material to an alomantically active metal. Attach a gem stone to the aluminum/metal dart and you have investiture removing darts or edged discs at rifle speeds. Both Vin and Kelsior could handle many at once. Of course Kaladin might soon be imitating the projectile approach once he sees coinshot's and lurcher's in action.

They need Rysium for this because thats how the fussed manage it. So not really an option, they also need to pierce skin, which shardplate protects against. And being a god metal means they cant push on that portion of said weapon.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

So in my opinion Mistborn vs Radiant is not cut and dried and the advantage goes to the situation and location that the battle takes place. Besides I think the Radiants, Twinborn, and Fused will be fighting Trell in the not to distant future alongside one another. It seems as if in order for Radiants and Fused to fight on Scadrial then need to snap or use hemalurgy, but the Mistborn need only metal of which some are in abundance to fight on Roshar and they may be even more enhanced with a bond to a Spren.

As stated above, doesnt matter at 4th, at erd they could assisinate and maybe win a straight fight, below 3rd theyre ahead.

20 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

who needs a rifle when you have a coin shot?

 

A bullet has much more stopping power (shape of the projectile, the excelleration shown from steel pushes, not being tied to your own mass. So a gun is an upgraded version of a steel push. Not to mention they can push the bullets. Look at wax, hes a steel savant and yet he sti uses guns.

[Bigmikey357]

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality.  Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible,  even moreso with Atium.  The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible.  But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor,  then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks.

  Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal.  Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch,  not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. 

If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship,  carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness.  I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality.  Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible,  even moreso with Atium.  The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible.  But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor,  then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks.

  Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal.  Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch,  not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. 

If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship,  carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness.  I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

Soothing/roioting might not work as Radiants are much more invested than normal humans.

[Light In the Darkness]

just wanted to note, somewhere earlier someone said that coins being Pushed didn't have momentum after, and that Is flat out false; easy evidence: after a mistborn pushes off metal, they retain their momentum, and in order for the conservation of momentum to stay true, that means the metal they pushed off retains momentum as well.

I think there are a couple things being underestimated here; one, bendalloy. If you're in a speed bubble you have a major advantage, because you can take a breather and move somewhere unexpected. Two, steelpushes and ironpulls; as Kelsier demonstrated fighting in TFE, a fully trained mistborn would be able to manipulate several dozen jagged, speedy pieces of metal at once, skillfully. They could keep that in a cloud around the radiant, blocking visibility and causing hundreds of tiny hits to the plate per second. Third, bullets; if Wax was to throw a bullet, wait until it hit the radiant, and then pushed the explosive pin, it would blow up outside the gun, which the radiant would A) not be expecting, stunning them, and B) The radiant would take major damage from. It might not destroy plate, but it would crack/damage it significantly. Last but not least is the Harmonium Grenade; if a mistborn had one, they could set up a slow-bubble, and position themselves to kill the radiant immediately as it is released, maybe with duraluminum, or using raw harmonium could blow them up. It could also do weird things with the radiant powers, if it just stores and re-releases stormlight, which could catch the Radiant by surprise; e.g. a stoneward making a barricade, then suddenly the ground swallows their feet. granted in that particular case, the cube might disappear too, but similar principles apply. A soulcaster turns the air to oil and blows it up; they find the ground slicked by oil they didn't make a second later, etc. So, I think the mistborn would have a better chance against a 4th oath radiant than your giving them credit for, especially with a gun. Additionally, in a battle like this, where they were the only Allomancer, would mean they could wear metal too, not just cloth. Bronze might give an advantage to them too, since it would let them detect lightweavings and not be fooled by them, or else locate the only real person in an illusion. As they became more adept, with more practice and better technology, some of the Radiant disadvantages would disappear, but as the two series currently stand (and last I checked they are not chronologically synced, and all this is ignoring fabrials) I think the Mistborn is more powerful than you think.

[Bigmikey357]

1 hour ago, Light In the Darkness said:

just wanted to note, somewhere earlier someone said that coins being Pushed didn't have momentum after, and that Is flat out false; easy evidence: after a mistborn pushes off metal, they retain their momentum, and in order for the conservation of momentum to stay true, that means the metal they pushed off retains momentum as well.

I think there are a couple things being underestimated here; one, bendalloy. If you're in a speed bubble you have a major advantage, because you can take a breather and move somewhere unexpected. Two, steelpushes and ironpulls; as Kelsier demonstrated fighting in TFE, a fully trained mistborn would be able to manipulate several dozen jagged, speedy pieces of metal at once, skillfully. They could keep that in a cloud around the radiant, blocking visibility and causing hundreds of tiny hits to the plate per second. Third, bullets; if Wax was to throw a bullet, wait until it hit the radiant, and then pushed the explosive pin, it would blow up outside the gun, which the radiant would A) not be expecting, stunning them, and The radiant would take major damage from. It might not destroy plate, but it would crack/damage it significantly. Last but not least is the Harmonium Grenade; if a mistborn had one, they could set up a slow-bubble, and position themselves to kill the radiant immediately as it is released, maybe with duraluminum, or using raw harmonium could blow them up. It could also do weird things with the radiant powers, if it just stores and re-releases stormlight, which could catch the Radiant by surprise; e.g. a stoneward making a barricade, then suddenly the ground swallows their feet. granted in that particular case, the cube might disappear too, but similar principles apply. A soulcaster turns the air to oil and blows it up; they find the ground slicked by oil they didn't make a second later, etc. So, I think the mistborn would have a better chance against a 4th oath radiant than your giving them credit for, especially with a gun. Additionally, in a battle like this, where they were the only Allomancer, would mean they could wear metal too, not just cloth. Bronze might give an advantage to them too, since it would let them detect lightweavings and not be fooled by them, or else locate the only real person in an illusion. As they became more adept, with more practice and better technology, some of the Radiant disadvantages would disappear, but as the two series currently stand (and last I checked they are not chronologically synced, and all this is ignoring fabrials) I think the Mistborn is more powerful than you think.

What I believe you're getting into is innate abilities vs. tool uses. In the innate abilities department the Mistborn,  while powerful,  is at a distinct disadvantage.  I can think of several ways the attacks you propose can be thwarted depending on Radiant Order doing the fighting.  For just one example, a Windrunner could easily get out of the range of those flying projectiles.  About the only innate ability a Mistborn holds over a Radiant is the ability to burn Atium.  A huge advantage,  yes, but a less effective one as a Radiant progresses in Oaths. The mistborn can augment their advantages through tool uses, guns, allomantic grenades and the like. And Scadrial tech is more advanced than Rosharan tech.  But the thing about tools are that they can be used by either side. If a Radiant has an allomantic grenade they could throw their surges. Imagine a Windrunner charging a gravity grenade,  flying up a couple hundred feet,  then dropping a 5x lashing down on the battlefield.  

[StanLemon]

Battlefield also is an important consideration. In an open field the Mistborn would have a very challenging time of things. In a city, with plenty of items to Push and Pull from various angles, I drastically improves a Mistborn's combat options

[XS-Terrain]

17 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

That quote is a with the right bullet in the right moment, not a yes and wax is not typical either.

Certainly more stopping power than said rocks, however, how many bullets are they carrying, can they hit a very fast moving target, what about if the radiant shoots back (woth either bow or gun) theyve got to hit a fast mast moving almost impenetrabale killing machine that is shooting back and hope they kill it before it gets to them. Easy money is still on the radiant.

This WoB as stated above is tenuous at best. Could it be done, by a steel savant whos almost supernaturally good with his gun, using the most advanced gun and bullet of his time with the right shot at the right moment. Thats not a person with gun beats shardplate, thats a wax has the skill and weaponry to get lucky.

I disagree. The gun has little to no impact on the force of the bullet, beyond the length of the barrel and the rifling (Vindication is a revolver, so it doesn't even have an advantage in this department). Rather, the force of the bullet is determined by the explosive powder in the bullet itself. The only thing special about Vindication is the fact that it can chamber special, large caliber hazekiller rounds, and I'm guessing this is what Sanderson meant by the right bullet, the right shot, and in the right moment. A specialized bullet, fired from a revolver, can pierce a weak section of Sharplate. When he says 2 or 3 bullets, I'm guessing he means just regular revolver cartridges, as there's no way Wax gets regular ammo special-made from Ranette. A single specialized bullet from a revolver, or 2-3 regular bullets, is equivalent to 1-2 regular bullets from a rifle.

As for the Radiant carrying a gun, I'm currently assuming that they don't have one, as I'm comparing Scadrial at the WoR time period with Roshar during that time period. A bow isn't very useful, as it's much harder to aim than a gun, and is significantly worse for hitting moving targets. That's not even considering the question of how the Radiant would carry the bow around while fighting with a Shardplate, and also the fact that, if the arrowheads are metal, the Mistborn could probably push away the quiver. If the Radiant did have a gun, they would have a much better chance of winning, as range is basically the only weakness of the Radiant.

If neither had a gun though, I would still give the advantage to the Mistborn, simply because of range and mobility. Range is a massively important factor in combat. Throughout history, whether it be the Mongol horse archers, the English longbowmen, the gunpowder empires, or modern battle tanks, range has always provided a significant advantage in combat. The same applies for mobility, as the Mongol horse archers, medieval knights and other various forms of light and heavy cavalry, and tanks and aircraft from the Second World War to today have won wars due to maneuverability and speed. In fact, in Second World War dogfights, it was consistently the fighter with better agility that won, not the one with greater firepower. If the enemy can't reach you, it doesn't matter how lethal the Shardblade is, if you can just keep distance using steelpushes and ironpulls and just wear down the Shardplate with coins, eventually you win. Of course, this is dependant on situation as well, as this is not so viable in a confined area.

Regarding the skill of the fighter, a 4th Ideal Radiant is near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant - We've only seen 2 so far, Kaladin and Jasnah, and it's stated multiple times throughout RoW that most Radiants never reach those higher Ideals. It makes sense, then, that we should only have them facing the most skilled of Mistborn - someone with the full power of a Lerasium bead like Elend, with the Allomantic skill of Vin or Kelsier, and the gun skill of Wax.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

IsWhat it always comes down to for me is instant lethality.  Can a Mistborn kill a Radiant with one attack? For any Radiant 3rd oath or below this is possible,  even moreso with Atium.  The higher the oath the more difficult it becomes but it's possible.  But from what we've seen from Oath 4 a Mistborn is going to need multiple hits. They have to pierce the armor,  then get to the skin, then either deal enough damage to overcome the healing factor or deprive them of fuel so that they can be killed by normal attacks.

  Can a Radiant kill a Mistborn with one attack? They have several instant kill options at their disposal.  Shardblade to sever a soul, an armor punch about as strong as a duraluminum enhanced pewter punch,  not to mention whatever surge gets granted by a particular Order. The margin for error is extremely slim. 

If I were a Mistborn there's no way I'm going up against a Radiant openly regardless of level unless absolutely necessary. Anyone 4 oaths in or more I'm not trying to be within a mile of. The only reliable way to kill him would be to keep him from realizing he's in a fight at all. I would approach him in friendship,  carefully soothing his emotions to reinforce my trustworthy nature or my harmlessness.  I would reach in for a hug. Once within my grasp I'd hit him with duraluminum and chromium to instantly wipe his Stormlight and preventing him from summoning blade or plate. Then, while he's off balance, I'd plant an aluminum dagger in his eye. And hold it there.

As stated above, I'm not sure that instakill capability is necessary, as against all orders except maybe the Windrunners or Skybreakers, the Mistborn can effectively just not be hit, and simply fly around the Radiant. Without ranged capability, the Radiant is left grounded and essentially useless. Once again, this depends on situation, but in an open environment, the Mistborn has every advantage. @Light In the Darkness had some good ideas in his post as well about what a Mistborn could do.

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Light In the Darkness said:

just wanted to note, somewhere earlier someone said that coins being Pushed didn't have momentum after, and that Is flat out false; easy evidence: after a mistborn pushes off metal, they retain their momentum, and in order for the conservation of momentum to stay true, that means the metal they pushed off retains momentum as well.

I think there are a couple things being underestimated here; one, bendalloy. If you're in a speed bubble you have a major advantage, because you can take a breather and move somewhere unexpected. Two, steelpushes and ironpulls; as Kelsier demonstrated fighting in TFE, a fully trained mistborn would be able to manipulate several dozen jagged, speedy pieces of metal at once, skillfully. They could keep that in a cloud around the radiant, blocking visibility and causing hundreds of tiny hits to the plate per second. Third, bullets; if Wax was to throw a bullet, wait until it hit the radiant, and then pushed the explosive pin, it would blow up outside the gun, which the radiant would A) not be expecting, stunning them, and The radiant would take major damage from. It might not destroy plate, but it would crack/damage it significantly. Last but not least is the Harmonium Grenade; if a mistborn had one, they could set up a slow-bubble, and position themselves to kill the radiant immediately as it is released, maybe with duraluminum, or using raw harmonium could blow them up. It could also do weird things with the radiant powers, if it just stores and re-releases stormlight, which could catch the Radiant by surprise; e.g. a stoneward making a barricade, then suddenly the ground swallows their feet. granted in that particular case, the cube might disappear too, but similar principles apply. A soulcaster turns the air to oil and blows it up; they find the ground slicked by oil they didn't make a second later, etc. So, I think the mistborn would have a better chance against a 4th oath radiant than your giving them credit for, especially with a gun. Additionally, in a battle like this, where they were the only Allomancer, would mean they could wear metal too, not just cloth. Bronze might give an advantage to them too, since it would let them detect lightweavings and not be fooled by them, or else locate the only real person in an illusion. As they became more adept, with more practice and better technology, some of the Radiant disadvantages would disappear, but as the two series currently stand (and last I checked they are not chronologically synced, and all this is ignoring fabrials) I think the Mistborn is more powerful than you think.

Yes and Radiants can use Fabrials to turn a Mistborns powers off, while leaving their own unharmed. See when we start adding things it just makes it infinitely more complicated, can we just go by innate ability?

[trav]

On 2.12.2020 at 10:02 PM, Ookla the Unnamable said:

1. Have experience fighting enemies who can drain their investiture.

Leechers would be more efficient I'd say.

I was convinced that Mistborn would win because of this and I still am,
but its becoming increasingly hard to convince myself... Radiants are downright broken. especially the Shardblades. they are way too powerful, lethal and versatile.

[BenduLuke]

26 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

They need Rysium for this because thats how the fussed manage it. So not really an option, they also need to pierce skin, which shardplate protects against. And being a god metal means they cant push on that portion of said weapon.

Rysium is aluminum. A full mistborn can push and pull metals at near balistic speeds. Aluminum fused with metal and linked to gems has the potential to pierce armor and drain stormlight from both the armor and Radiant even a 4th Ideal. On Scadrial stormlight to fuel surges would be difficult to substitute for while bonding could more simply provide complimentary investiture for a mistborn and Roshar does have alamantic metals for them to use. As Kelsior said to Vin paraphrasing 'In a contest where you try force against force you are at a disadvantage so you need to be more clever and skillful', and the variety of abilities a Mistborn has leave ample room to overskill the force of Radiant surges.

Again it would also depend on which type of Radiant goes up against a full mistborn not all radiants are equally warriors.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Rysium is aluminum.

No it's not

[BenduLuke]

52 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Yes and Radiants can use Fabrials to turn a Mistborns powers off, while leaving their own unharmed. See when we start adding things it just makes it infinitely more complicated, can we just go by innate ability?

The fabrials would only work if tuned to alomantic and or feruchemical skills after all the fabrial that nulled Kaladins powers was tuned to raidant abilities it took another tuning to nullify fused abilities.

[BenduLuke]

7 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

No it's not

that is what is said in RoW

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

that is what is said in RoW

No it isn't Rasyinum is to Odium what Atium is to Ruin, Ralkalest is aluminum, Aluminum is alluminum, Navani has seen Aluminum yet is still surprised to see Raysium. They are not hte same thing.

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

The fabrials would only work if tuned to alomantic and or feruchemical skills after all the fabrial that nulled Kaladins powers was tuned to raidant abilities it took another tuning to nullify fused abilities.

And?

Edited December 9, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[Lemiltock]

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

I disagree. The gun has little to no impact on the force of the bullet, beyond the length of the barrel and the rifling (Vindication is a revolver, so it doesn't even have an advantage in this department). Rather, the force of the bullet is determined by the explosive powder in the bullet itself. The only thing special about Vindication is the fact that it can chamber special, large caliber hazekiller rounds, and I'm guessing this is what Sanderson meant by the right bullet, the right shot, and in the right moment. A specialized bullet, fired from a revolver, can pierce a weak section of Sharplate. When he says 2 or 3 bullets, I'm guessing he means just regular revolver cartridges, as there's no way Wax gets regular ammo special-made from Ranette. A single specialized bullet from a revolver, or 2-3 regular bullets, is equivalent to 1-2 regular bullets from a rifle.

Wax, for the most part, uses a speality weapon, firing specialty bullets and has incredible skill at both shooting and pushing bullets. Brandon also in WoB its said as possible, not that wax can just fire off a shot and it work, it also assumes hitting the target. Which a radiant can turn their shardblade into a shield and just run them down.

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

As for the Radiant carrying a gun, I'm currently assuming that they don't have one, as I'm comparing Scadrial at the WoR time period with Roshar during that time period. A bow isn't very useful, as it's much harder to aim than a gun, and is significantly worse for hitting moving targets. That's not even considering the question of how the Radiant would carry the bow around while fighting with a Shardplate, and also the fact that, if the arrowheads are metal, the Mistborn could probably push away the quiver. If the Radiant did have a gun, they would have a much better chance of winning, as range is basically the only weakness of the Radiant.

You mentioned a modern bolt action rifle, of the mistborn has just any gun, so can the radiant, also a radiant could have a similar gun, afterall they dont require magic to use. But in either case sprenblade becomes a shield, they run down the mistborn at inhumanly fast speeds while bairly burning through their resources and the mistborn needs to use everything to stay away. The bullets and coins shot csnt damage the shield and will barly scratch the exposed (no flat) pieces of plate and their range is nullified.

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

If neither had a gun though, I would still give the advantage to the Mistborn, simply because of range and mobility. Range is a massively important factor in combat. Throughout history, whether it be the Mongol horse archers, the English longbowmen, the gunpowder empires, or modern battle tanks, range has always provided a significant advantage in combat. The same applies for mobility, as the Mongol horse archers, medieval knights and other various forms of light and heavy cavalry, and tanks and aircraft from the Second World War to today have won wars due to maneuverability and speed. In fact, in Second World War dogfights, it was consistently the fighter with better agility that won, not the one with greater firepower. If the enemy can't reach you, it doesn't matter how lethal the Shardblade is, if you can just keep distance using steelpushes and ironpulls and just wear down the Shardplate with coins, eventually you win. Of course, this is dependant on situation as well, as this is not so viable in a confined area.

I disagree both have good mobility, but the mistborn requires anchors to push/pull  a radiant just has better than pewter constantly, live plate plus stormlight. They also have significantly more deffence and healling, a mistborn cant get hit at all, while a radiant cant tank several life threatening attacks. And again keeping that distance will be hard even if it mattered, because they cant get through live plate.

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

Regarding the skill of the fighter, a 4th Ideal Radiant is near the pinnacle of the Knights Radiant - We've only seen 2 so far, Kaladin and Jasnah, and it's stated multiple times throughout RoW that most Radiants never reach those higher Ideals. It makes sense, then, that we should only have them facing the most skilled of Mistborn - someone with the full power of a Lerasium bead like Elend, with the Allomantic skill of Vin or Kelsier, and the gun skill of Wax.

There are 4th iath skybreakers that arnt even named, wax/vin/kelsier/elend/kaladin etc etc are more skilled than a normal non named person. The oaths are also less about skill and more about the person (ie accepting and living the oaths). But even so, Kaladin would beat Vin, and that was before he had liveplate, now he slontzees her, and she was the most skilled mistborn

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

As stated above, I'm not sure that instakill capability is necessary, as against all orders except maybe the Windrunners or Skybreakers, the Mistborn can effectively just not be hit, and simply fly around the Radiant. Without ranged capability, the Radiant is left grounded and essentially useless. Once again, this depends on situation, but in an open environment, the Mistborn has every advantage. @Light In the Darkness had some good ideas in his post as well about what a Mistborn could do.

 

So a radiant in almost impenitrable armour, with a weapon that kills transforms and kills the soul (and can become an unbreakable shield) that is both inhumanly strong and fast, coupled with insane healing cant beat a person throwing/shooting coins and bullets at them. The fight is litterally a person vs a tank. Are the mistborn incredivle assassins, yes, can they take down a litteral magic knight, in magic armour with a magic sword in a 1v1 fight not a chance. And given live plate is also always around, the assasinatiom turns into a 1v1.

[Bigmikey357]

5 hours ago, XS-Terrain said:

As stated above, I'm not sure that instakill capability is necessary, as against all orders except maybe the Windrunners or Skybreakers, the Mistborn can effectively just not be hit, and simply fly around the Radiant. Without ranged capability, the Radiant is left grounded and essentially useless. Once again, this depends on situation, but in an open environment, the Mistborn has every advantage

Willshapers and Stonewards could raise an impenetrable barricade of stone, making the Mistborn have to come close to do damage.  Hell, so can Lightweavers and Elsecallers by different methods. 

An open environment definitely does not favor the Mistborn as they have no anchors to push/ pull on, thus limiting their maneuverability. 

I consider instant lethality because fights between combatants of the skills we are considering rarely last long. Wearing down a Radiant is by no means easy and because of the abilities Radiance provides, tradeoffs start to introduce themselves.  Mistborn has better endurance because they have a more fuel efficient Investiture source in most metals, but they have no defense and cannot heal. The longer a fight goes the better chance of making mistakes.  A Radiant can recover from most mistakes while with a Mistborn any mistake leaves them dead. 

As for Range, yeah its important.  But Radiance can negate ranged attacks by numerous means.  If a Mistborn wants to play keep away then they can't do significant lasting damage.  They gotta get in close to kill, and being close to a Radiant is a bad place to be. 

[Azarias]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:35 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

I agree it would take a couple seconds.  But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact,  during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done?  Possibly.  Atium would help a great deal.  A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant.

I would say that it is pretty feasible that a mistborn could use atium to break part of the plate. From there, if you could get close enough using atium, you could bypass the plate and take atium from them directly. And yes, if this took two seconds, I would agree that they would probably be killed, however, two seconds could turn to almost instant if you flared duraliam at the same time.  The mistborn would take the dub.

[Frustration]

You guys keep saying how Atium is a Mistborns only chance and how they are more fuel efficient, but Atium is much LESS fuel efficent 

[BenduLuke]

4 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

No it isn't Rasyinum is to Odium what Atium is to Ruin, Ralkalest is aluminum, Aluminum is alluminum, Navani has seen Aluminum yet is still surprised to see Raysium. They are not hte same thing.

And?

Though I could be wrong I it remember reading that aluminum, Ralkalest, and Raysium are names given to the same metal on different planets in the Cosmere. Raysium is the name from last war on Roshar for aluminum, and yes it is rare though becoming more common as the world become more industrialized. Aluminum, Ralkalest, Raysium when used to pierce act to drain investiture. On Skadrial it drains identity specifically, but on other world it drains investiture like stormlight more generally and resists invested power including shard blades. Navani was surprised because she never considered that use for aluminum.

To make a fabrial that blocks alamancy you would need to find the amplitude and frequency of that alomancy and we know from Bronze that the different alomantic metals produce different frequencies so there is not one fabrial solution to blocking alomancy and different fabrials might interfere with each other.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

What I believe you're getting into is innate abilities vs. tool uses. In the innate abilities department the Mistborn,  while powerful,  is at a distinct disadvantage.  I can think of several ways the attacks you propose can be thwarted depending on Radiant Order doing the fighting.  For just one example, a Windrunner could easily get out of the range of those flying projectiles.  About the only innate ability a Mistborn holds over a Radiant is the ability to burn Atium.  A huge advantage,  yes, but a less effective one as a Radiant progresses in Oaths. The mistborn can augment their advantages through tool uses, guns, allomantic grenades and the like. And Scadrial tech is more advanced than Rosharan tech.  But the thing about tools are that they can be used by either side. If a Radiant has an allomantic grenade they could throw their surges. Imagine a Windrunner charging a gravity grenade,  flying up a couple hundred feet,  then dropping a 5x lashing down on the battlefield.  

Mistborn are all about tool use it is an innate ability of theirs even a coin is a tool and pick a battle field off Roshar then Radiants are at a disadvantage since transporting stormlight is near impossible off world at this point as well as figuring out how to fuel surges without it could prove challenging, but finding metals to fuel alomancy is easy. Also shard plate and blades are also tools not abilities. Shard plate is not invulnerable and suffers the same weaknesses as other invested item such as aluminum which nullifies investiture. Other metals have also been mentioned which affect investiture directly as well.

In all out power I would be willing to consede that to Some Radiants on Roshar. Kaladin would be tough for anyone to beat in almost any situation. A mistborn like Vin or Kelsior in terms of finesse, skill, and a broad range of versatile skills would be a tough opponent for any Radiant on any world even Roshar. For all we know a copper cloud could damp stormlight in a fight especially with bronze to show them what frequency to tune it to. In other words I think that with the vast array of skills available to Mistborn it could provide several tactics to overcome the potentially shear power of Radiants. There are 16 metals with the various combinations of their use and almost all of those metals are available everywhere in the cosmere.

Mistborn need to figure out how to counter 3 powerful abilities and their combinations at best in a one on one fight, but Radiants would be faced with 16 powers and all their potential combinations some of which might even effect the bond between Spren and Radiant or across all three layers of reality. Shear power with very limited skills and thier combinations vs finesse with a wide range of versatile skills and their thousands of permutations it is not at all certain of the outcome but I would edge toward the mistborn vs even 4th or 5th ideal. In a twinborn fight with a radiant it would depent on the combatants and where it took place anywhere off Roshar even twinborn would likely have the advantage.