Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Vin couldn't create a steel bubble so not a mistborn power, but a possible resonance for a coinshot related to but not initially one of their powers. A steel bubble is an effect of steel pushes in response to experience and the steel more efficiently resonating with the misting. Some F ability like Iron accelerate that experience and acquisition of the effect.

don't know that she ever tried

now let's break this down,

Each unique combination gives a different resonance, so we can't have two steel bubbles

it is two powers and an effect, so not a mixing of them.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

don't know that she ever tried

now let's break this down,

Each unique combination gives a different resonance, so we can't have two steel bubbles

it is two powers and an effect, so not a mixing of them.

Okay I swear I've read somewhere (might've actually been earlier in this thread tbh) that Wax's real resonance is his spectacular skill with guns (think shooting a bullet with another bullet from Wayne's speed bubble to hit Miles and not Marasi). I dunno if that's actually how Resonances work, or if it's something to do with being Harmony's "sword", or whatever, but it seems like "an effect" that would mesh nicely with his powers (steelpush a bullet to make it extra-deadly, tap Iron to be a better anchor for pushing on it).

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

don't know that she ever tried

now let's break this down,

Each unique combination gives a different resonance, so we can't have two steel bubbles

it is two powers and an effect, so not a mixing of them.

Sure we can they just don't work the same but they do involve an effect of steel pushing. Vin pushed all the metal even her coin pouches away from her when she tried this. Wax commented on how it was weird that he could differentiate metals on him from metals around him and how he could be selective. The resonance will be related but it may not be obvious. What is Wayne's resonance, Brandon says he has one but it is more subtle than Wax's. He did mention Healing in a speed bubble in the coppermind.

[Aspiring Writer]

21 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Vin couldn't create a steel bubble

She could've simply not known it was possible.

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Okay I swear I've read somewhere (might've actually been earlier in this thread tbh) that Wax's real resonance is his spectacular skill with guns (think shooting a bullet with another bullet from Wayne's speed bubble to hit Miles and not Marasi). I dunno if that's actually how Resonances work, or if it's something to do with being Harmony's "sword", or whatever, but it seems like "an effect" that would mesh nicely with his powers (steelpush a bullet to make it extra-deadly, tap Iron to be a better anchor for pushing on it).

I think Brandon said it's not but it certainly borders on it. His experience pushing coins acts like a gunslinger who has uncountable hours of practice. He is so good he does it reflexively. Which can also explain his steel bubble. Steel, vectors, momentum, gravity all resonate with him. His official A-F resonance may be something we haven't mentioned yet and could come as a surprise. Still without more concrete examples speculating on how the powers interact to create an effect may be our best chance of discovering resonances.

[BenduLuke]

11 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

She could've simply not known it was possible.

She had to many powers to practice enough with steel pushes to discover it was possible, and she didn't need it since she could acquire a synergy between pushes and pulls that gave her a different metal bubble.

That is the mistborn multiple power problem. Generally able to do everything but not as skilled at anything.

She did have a resonance in Bronze because of hemalurgy. Or perhaps compounded Bronze.

Edited February 5, 2021 by BenduLuke

[BenduLuke]

Iron compounders might be able to vary the gravity near them by fluctuating mass so as to create an Iron bubble that might even affect aluminum since it is not technically a metal pull and aluminum is subject to gravity. Gravity alterations could produce changes in air flow and viscosity which could further change projectile trajectories.

[Aspiring Writer]

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

She had to many powers to practice enough with steel pushes to discover it was possible, and she didn't need it since she could acquire a synergy between pushes and pulls that gave her a different metal bubble.

That wasn't a bubble, just a series of pushes and pulls, and she wouldn't have discovered it if she hadn't tried to do it.

7 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

That is the mistborn multiple power problem. Generally able to do everything but not as skilled at anything.

We see from Vin that be overcome with practice. Mistborn tend to not focus as much time on increasing their skills with certain metals but they can.

 

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

She did have a resonance in Bronze because of hemalurgy. Or perhaps compounded Bronze.

No and no. It wasn't a resonance, it wasn't a new power, just the strengthening of another power. And it isn't compounding, she doesn't have any feruchemical abilities.

[The Technovore]

@BenduLuke three things. First, keep an eye on your multi-posting. You might catch a moderator's eye on that. Second, this thread isn't really a discussion on what is or isn't a resonance, maybe another thread would be appropriate? I don't mean to backseat-moderate, but at this point it's a matter of time until a real one shows up to say the same thing, haha.

 

Thirdly, I kinda want to contest the whole "F-iron subtle change in gravity" thing, because the keyword there is subtle. 

The Earth's mass is 597,219,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms. (give or take a "0" ;P). Human mass varies widely but averages to about 70. The earth's gravitational acceleration is 9.8 m/s^2. A human's gravitational acceleration is 0.000000000000000000000114 m/s^2. Go ahead and multiply that by 100 like Wax did. Now assume an Iron Compounder-let's be generous and give them a factor of a million. A iron compounder's gravitational force is 0.000000000000001 m/s^2 for an object touching their skin. Try giving them a factor of a hundred million, which is utterly insane but sure. You now have a 7 BILLION kilogram human that STILL has an almost imperceptible gravitational pull. The compounder is going to crack stone and sink into the planet's crust and fall into the mantle, and it still won't even slightly nudge a bullet.

EDIT: This is why when I think of an iron-compounder, I'm thinking of kinetic weapons. The sheer blunt force these people could potentially unleash has massive destructive potential, but is also incredibly dangerous to the people themselves. However, ettmetal fabrials built around the abilities of Iron Compounders could accomplish wonderful things.

Edited February 6, 2021 by The Technovore

[BenduLuke]

21 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

That wasn't a bubble, just a series of pushes and pulls, and she wouldn't have discovered it if she hadn't tried to do it.

We see from Vin that be overcome with practice. Mistborn tend to not focus as much time on increasing their skills with certain metals but they can.

 

No and no. It wasn't a resonance, it wasn't a new power, just the strengthening of another power. And it isn't compounding, she doesn't have any feruchemical abilities.

Alright a sphere of moving metal. neither Vin or any other Mistborn has the time to become as proficient with all their metals as a Misting does with their one metal.

Yes scientifically Vin's Bronze H & A interaction is both a resonance and compounding. Feruchemy does not need to be involved for there to be either compounding or resonance. But you can go ahead and call the interaction amplification.

@The Technovore I know it looks like double posting, but it is actually responding to other comments as they come in. Sometimes while I am in the process of responding to one another comes in so my comments appear next to each other. Sorry if that is distracting. The other time that seems to happen is when I think of a possible combination that I want present right after responding to a comment on one of my responses. I will try to do better. Good point on gravity. Gravity is also affected by density in an area. Great mass in a small area would create a region of affect near it, but you are right that that kind of mass could cause issues with surface tension even of solid ground which a sufficiantly strong Iron pull or short duration might solve. Iron pulls from an Iron compunder would be particularly powerful and effective.

Soulbearer(Nicrosil F) or Windwhisper(Tin F) mixed with many allomantic abilities would create interesting results. Soulbearer's could potentially store any allomantic power they had in their metal mind and tap it feruchemically (>duralumin steel effect potentially over a longer period or any other). Windwhisper's could store Seeker sense, Metal Sense, Augur sense(not sure how useful that would be), and Oracle Sense which they could tap in greater potency and or duration. Imagine the possibilities and advantages that would give them.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes scientifically Vin's Bronze H & A interaction is both a resonance and compounding. Feruchemy does not need to be involved for there to be either compounding or resonance. But you can go ahead and call the interaction amplification.

Feruchemy is needed for compounding, the definition of Compounding is fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

@The Technovore I know it looks like double posting, but it is actually responding to other comments as they come in. Sometimes while I am in the process of responding to one another comes in so my comments appear next to each other. Sorry if that is distracting.

If you reload the page it will add the replies but you response should be saved

[BenduLuke]

On 2/6/2021 at 2:28 PM, Frustration said:

Feruchemy is needed for compounding, the definition of Compounding is fueling Feruchemy with Allomancy.

If you reload the page it will add the replies but you response should be saved

I have tried reloading and lost the comment I was writing.

It really doesn't matter what you want to call it, it is still a multiplication of the effect.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

It really doesn't matter what you want to call it, it is still a multiplication of the effect.

It was addition, not multiplication. And no it was not a reasonance.

[cometaryorbit]

One other thing is "training time". It seems like Mistborn learn fast - Kelsier was able to escape the supposedly-inescapable Pits of Hathsin like the day he Snapped (although that's probably due to using Atium). It takes a long time to go through the Oaths, it seems.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

35 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

One other thing is "training time". It seems like Mistborn learn fast - Kelsier was able to escape the supposedly-inescapable Pits of Hathsin like the day he Snapped (although that's probably due to using Atium). It takes a long time to go through the Oaths, it seems.

i feel that's not a fair comparison, because first, kelsier was an incredible thief before, and so the moment he got mistborn abilities, he probably could figure them out fast. also, as mentioned, atium. second, the oaths aren't just practicing abilities, they're also getting more powers.

[Frustration]

Not only that but Metalborn take around 16 years to reach full maturity, while a New Radiant can be made in hours.

[The Technovore]

 

54 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but Metalborn take around 16 years to reach full maturity, while a New Radiant can be made in hours.

This is a great point, and is a huge advantage for Roshar due to momentum. In a full-out war, if Roshar started with an early victory or heavy offensive, the momentum could spell Scadrian doom. Scadrial has a lot of ingenuity and versatility but won't be able to match Rosharan/Radiant battle tactics before their best resources start to wear thin. An Oath 2 Radiant already has access to surges, and like I mentioned before, Stormlight's healing and durability puts that Radiant ahead of both A-pewter mistings and F-gold ferrings. F-gold/A-gold twinborn are too far and few to match their super-soldier stormlight serum, and because of the nature of spren being hard to kill (and anti-Investiture being a Rosharan invention that would take far too long for non-natives to reverse-engineer due to their unfamiliarity with Rhythms and the effects), every dead Radiant ends up back in the field within months. Radiants are to Roshar as Stormlight is to a Radiant. 

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

One other thing is "training time". It seems like Mistborn learn fast - Kelsier was able to escape the supposedly-inescapable Pits of Hathsin like the day he Snapped (although that's probably due to using Atium). It takes a long time to go through the Oaths, it seems.

I doubt it was atium. It was probably pewter. Super strength and physical abilities, maybe some unconcious rioting and soothing and finally metal awareness with some push pull. Mostly extreme physical abilities which would be easy to pick up on.

1 hour ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

i feel that's not a fair comparison, because first, kelsier was an incredible thief before, and so the moment he got mistborn abilities, he probably could figure them out fast. also, as mentioned, atium. second, the oaths aren't just practicing abilities, they're also getting more powers.

I think it is a little of both getting new powers then figuring out how to use them effectively. It took Kaladin a while to work out how to fly, stick stuff, though the healing came naturally.

58 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but Metalborn take around 16 years to reach full maturity, while a New Radiant can be made in hours.

Why do you think it takes 16 years to make a metalborn? Vin was metalborn from birth but she needed someone to train her to progress as fast as she did. She had been subconciously burning pewter, brass, and zinc for years with an extremely limited supply of them. We really don't know when Vin could have had full use of her abilities since until she was 16 she only had access to trace elements. It appears that once a person snaps they have full use of their abilities depending on whether they have the metals, then it is only a matter of learning how to use them.

A Radiant being made in hours? Kaladin took over a year to become a radiant. Even with his guidance his squires took weeks to months to start using radiant abilities. We have no idea how long it took Shalan or Lyft the first time to start being able to use their powers. Lyft still has issues with being slippery and moving. Radiant only get full access to their abilities after they have sworn all the oaths which few ever have. Division is after the 3rd or 4th oath for Dustbringers and Skybreakers. Gravity lashings are after 2nd oath for windurnners and skybreakers.

Regardless there is a learning and training curve to any metal or radiant abilities some being quicker to learn than others like pewter for metalborn, or illusion for Shallan.

@The Technovore There are a number of potential twinborn which could give even a 4th oath Radiant a run for their money. Almost any Nicrosil F combination would be a challenge to beat especially those with physical skills like Iron, steel, or pewter. Tin F could give an awareness advantage with some Allomantic abilities like bronze, tin, steel, iron, and especially the temporal metals that could make them very effective covert assasins.

Edited February 11, 2021 by BenduLuke
Update for additional comments.

[+Bzhydack]

50 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but Metalborn take around 16 years to reach full maturity, while a New Radiant can be made in hours.

This still depends on Spren. Radiant abilities are given, not inborn, what is advantage, but also disadvantage, because Radiant will never be as competent with his powers as Metalborn who uses powers all life. Also, Metalic Arts are most instinctive in use from every powers, faster to learn than Surges. Yeah, Radiant can be made in hours, but competent combat Radiant need months od training, while Metalborn can figure out New abilities literały on the run if he somehow gain them (Like Marasi or Wax).

[BenduLuke]

15 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

This still depends on Spren. Radiant abilities are given, not inborn, what is advantage, but also disadvantage, because Radiant will never be as competent with his powers as Metalborn who uses powers all life. Also, Metalic Arts are most instinctive in use from every powers, faster to learn than Surges. Yeah, Radiant can be made in hours, but competent combat Radiant need months od training, while Metalborn can figure out New abilities literały on the run if he somehow gain them (Like Marasi or Wax).

In addition metalborn have their abilities almost from birth and some awareness of them once snapped. Even Vin was subconsciously aware and called some of her abilities her luck, and she used pewter without ever realizing it at the time. 

@The TechnovoreI think a steel twin might be more powerful than a pewter twin. A Pewter A Gold F could be a challenge to beat since they could probably store health and recovery in the gold.

Edited February 11, 2021 by BenduLuke

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Why do you think it takes 16 years to make a metalborn? Vin was metalborn from birth but she needed someone to train her to progress as fast as she did. She had been subconciously burning pewter, brass, and zinc for years with an extremely limited supply of them. We really don't know when Vin could have had full use of her abilities since until she was 16 she only had access to trace elements. It appears that once a person snaps they have full use of their abilities depending on whether they have the metals, then it is only a matter of learning how to use them.

Because they are people, you don't just make new ones like Radiants, they are born, replasing one, takes years.

40 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A Radiant being made in hours? Kaladin took over a year to become a radiant. Even with his guidance his squires took weeks to months to start using radiant abilities. We have no idea how long it took Shalan or Lyft the first time to start being able to use their powers. Lyft still has issues with being slippery and moving. Radiant only get full access to their abilities after they have sworn all the oaths which few ever have. Division is after the 3rd or 4th oath for Dustbringers and Skybreakers. Gravity lashings are after 2nd oath for windurnners and skybreakers.

There are more humans than spren, you only need them to be ready to say the words, and then you can mass produce them.

[cometaryorbit]

47 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I doubt it was atium. It was probably pewter. Super strength and physical abilities, maybe some unconcious rioting and soothing and finally metal awareness with some push pull. Mostly extreme physical abilities which would be easy to pick up on.

Well, he was right at the source for Atium, that's why I figured he used it. I am also not sure Pewter would be enough by itself for one unarmed man to defeat multiple armed guards.

 

2 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

i feel that's not a fair comparison, because first, kelsier was an incredible thief before, and so the moment he got mistborn abilities, he probably could figure them out fast. also, as mentioned, atium. second, the oaths aren't just practicing abilities, they're also getting more powers.

Kelsier was definitely experienced as a thief, but I don't know how much overt fighting he did, though he certainly knew something about improvisation and "fighting dirty" (that's how he was able to beat an experienced Mistborn in 'The Eleventh Metal').

As for the Oaths, that's kind of my point: a Mistborn has all their abilities potentially available at the moment of Snapping, and they seem to learn the use of them pretty quickly and fairly instinctively.

[cometaryorbit]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Because they are people, you don't just make new ones like Radiants, they are born, replasing one, takes years.

That can kind of work both ways, though, since the number of Radiants is limited by the number of appropriate Spren, and from ROW it seems that some of the Radiant Spren types are just not that numerous (due to the Recreance killing a lot of them).

-

But really I was talking individual ability. Radiants' abilities are "gated" behind the levels of Oaths.

Whereas most Mistborn seem to be operating on relatively the same level. We don't see Noble House Mistborn who have been practicing for decades doing drastically better than Kelsier for example...

In fact Zane's apparent skill advantage turns out to be Hemalurgy. IIRC there's a WoB that Kelsier is about at the peak of Pushing/Pulling skill... and he's only been Mistborn for like a year.

-

IMO a new Mistborn has a significant advantage over a new Radiant, but a maxed-out Radiant with live Blade and Plate has a huge advantage over a fully trained Mistborn (maybe even with atium)...

[BenduLuke]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

That can kind of work both ways, though, since the number of Radiants is limited by the number of appropriate Spren, and from ROW it seems that some of the Radiant Spren types are just not that numerous (due to the Recreance killing a lot of them).

-

But really I was talking individual ability. Radiants' abilities are "gated" behind the levels of Oaths.

Whereas most Mistborn seem to be operating on relatively the same level. We don't see Noble House Mistborn who have been practicing for decades doing drastically better than Kelsier for example...

In fact Zane's apparent skill advantage turns out to be Hemalurgy. IIRC there's a WoB that Kelsier is about at the peak of Pushing/Pulling skill... and he's only been Mistborn for like a year.

-

IMO a new Mistborn has a significant advantage over a new Radiant, but a maxed-out Radiant with live Blade and Plate has a huge advantage over a fully trained Mistborn (maybe even with atium)...

I agree that new, the Metalborn has the advantage, and in most cases experienced Radiants do assuming they engage in direct combat one on one. Never the less in my opinion some twinborn combinations would be a challenge for virtually any order, oath, or experience of Radiant. For example steel twin compounders would have such incredible speed and ability to attack from a distance that almost no radiant of any level, order, or experience would be likely to win even with the healing and armor. A bronze compounder given time and experience would likely be able to arm themselves with the most efficient Radiant killing weapons and Radiant defending armor. A tin-f with any number of allomantic abilities would prove to be an asset to any team of metalborn since many allomantic abilities could give them additional senses that they could store in their metal mind probably most effective a time sense from the temporal abilities especially thta of electrum which they could then tap feruchemically in a very short time or over a more extended time.

Electrum stored feruchemically might give the windwhisper the ability to see how a fight would go in a more controlled and extended manner than atium. Feruchemically stored future sense. We know seeker senses can be stored in Tin minds so it makes sense that other allomantic senses can be as well.

One other advantage that most twin born would have is that in their specific abilities they would have a degree of finesse and skill that is never seen among full mistborn so they could have advantages that mistborn cannot attain. Of course there are some allomantic and radiant abilities that lend themselves to winning by dirty fighting even when in a direct fight they would be outclassed.

[cometaryorbit]

5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I agree that new, the Metalborn has the advantage, and in most cases experienced Radiants do assuming they engage in direct combat one on one. Never the less in my opinion some twinborn combinations would be a challenge for virtually any order, oath, or experience of Radiant. For example steel twin compounders would have such incredible speed and ability to attack from a distance that almost no radiant of any level, order, or experience would be likely to win even with the healing and armor.

Double Steel is crazy powerful, yes. The one question though is that with Stormlight healing + live Shardplate the Steel Compounder might have real trouble doing any actual damage (we don't see sonic booms in the books, so coins are likely subsonic; I am not sure they would be able to crack shardplate).

If they have to stab the same spot (knife through eye hole or whatever) a ton of times, that might 'slow them down' enough to get Shardbladed.

I don't see the

5 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A bronze compounder given time and experience would likely be able to arm themselves with the most efficient Radiant killing weapons and Radiant defending armor.]

Maybe I am missing something, but I can't see what bronze will do here... Seeking Allomancy and wakefulness?

Another Twinborn that could be very effective vs Radiants IMO is Allomantic chromium (to Leech Stormlight) / Feruchemical gold (to survive a few Shardblade hits - assuming enough is stored up) or maybe Allomantic chromium/Feruchemical steel (to hit the Radiant before they can use the Blade - but the Leeching itself might take too much time).