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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW


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3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Twinborn, specifically steel and gold. Also, you think I'm wrong? How about we talk about that, seeing as that is the point of this thread. Let us try that hypothetical and see what the conclusion is with what we definitely know. 

 

I never said that. is this for @Frustration?

 

Making crap up about resonances is not what this thread is about. We are making hypotheticals based on what we know, and we only know two resonances, that for Windrunners and Lightweavers. 

 

look at the title. We are comparing magic systems, that being metallic arts and surges. Whether or not it's possible is not what we're debating.

We definitely know what abilities each metal enables. From that we can speculate on how 2 metals interact. We have a crasher example in Wax as a possible resonance template though Brandon has been unclear as to what his resonance is, and Miles as a near immortal gold compounder as another template to use. Sometimes Brandon refers to Wax's steel bubble as a resonance or savant ability, but still remains vague on it.

Sorry you two have been going at me back and forth that I got confused who commented what. I usually multi quoted, but I guess I crossed streams.

I am really not making stuff up, but I do speculate on possible interactions.

I can't bring myself to say I think you are wrong only that I disagree, because I could be wrong even if I don't think so.

A steel twin compounder can definitely move very fast (compound the speed by burning steel filled with it). How does a coinshot push metal? Is it magnetic? if so static build up from moving very fast might be discharged by pushing a coin and creating a magnetic tunnel for the push or connecting some exposed metal by a metal push. even heat can be ionized so might follow a magnetic flow created by a steel push. Thus throw lighting or fire as a resonance of Steel compounding.

A bronze compounder given time could potentially produce weapons dangerous to any invested person and would have the alertness to work around the clock to do it until they succeeded given their ability to detect the specific pulses of investiture.

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1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

A steel twin compounder can definitely move very fast (compound the speed by burning steel filled with it). How does a coinshot push metal? Is it magnetic? if so static build up from moving very fast might be discharged by pushing a coin and creating a magnetic tunnel for the push or connecting some exposed metal by a metal push. even heat can be ionized so might follow a magnetic flow created by a steel push. Thus throw lighting or fire as a resonance of Steel compounding.

Spiritual connection,

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

A bronze compounder given time could potentially produce weapons dangerous to any invested person and would have the alertness to work around the clock to do it until they succeeded given their ability to detect the specific pulses of investiture.

no more powerful than standard humans

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

We definitely know what abilities each metal enables. From that we can speculate on how 2 metals interact. We have a crasher example in Wax as a possible resonance template though Brandon has been unclear as to what his resonance is, and Miles as a near immortal gold compounder as another template to use. Sometimes Brandon refers to Wax's steel bubble as a resonance or savant ability, but still remains vague on it.

Please explain how Advanced memory has anything to do with Illumination and transformation

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2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

From that we can speculate on how 2 metals interact. We have a crasher example in Wax as a possible resonance template though Brandon has been unclear as to what his resonance is

It is confirmed that it is not a savant ability, and we know it isn't a resonance because we have seen another non-crasher twinborn use a steel bubble, so what Resonance Wax has is still unconfirmed and should not be used as template, and Miles being a compounder is not a resonance. Compounding is not an ability that grows over time of using both powers, it's just using both powers together. so neither are a good template. We really have no idea on any resonance for twinborn.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

I am really not making stuff up, but I do speculate on possible interactions.

Your asking us to make up possible hypothetical resonances for twinborn when we have no idea what their resonances could possibly be.

 

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Thus throw lighting or fire as a resonance of Steel compounding.

That is incredibly far fetched and doesn't follow the trend of the resonances we are sure about, which seem more passive.

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In the Arcanum Unbound Khriss says that Roshar is the planet where humans can get the most investiture. I think in general due to the radiant's healing ability they would win most fights. The ability to regenerate from basically any injury would trump anything that scadrians could do, the only exception would be a full mistborn feruchemist, like the lord ruler.

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1 hour ago, Truthless16 said:

In the Arcanum Unbound Khriss says that Roshar is the planet where humans can get the most investiture. I think in general due to the radiant's healing ability they would win most fights. The ability to regenerate from basically any injury would trump anything that scadrians could do, the only exception would be a full mistborn feruchemist, like the lord ruler.

But you know it is enough to put Aluminum in the wound to stop Investiture-based healing, do you?

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22 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spiritual connection,

no more powerful than standard humans

Please explain how Advanced memory has anything to do with Illumination and transformation

Even better the heat or static buildup can be guided by the spiritual connection.

yes but far more capable of augmenting their abilities vs any form of investiture. Kind of like Batman or Ironman.

It seems to have something to do with creativity & honesty(lightweaver values) interacting with the mediums of tranformation and illumination.

3 hours ago, Truthless16 said:

In the Arcanum Unbound Khriss says that Roshar is the planet where humans can get the most investiture. I think in general due to the radiant's healing ability they would win most fights. The ability to regenerate from basically any injury would trump anything that scadrians could do, the only exception would be a full mistborn feruchemist, like the lord ruler.

 

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

But you know it is enough to put Aluminum in the wound to stop Investiture-based healing, do you?

True.

10 minutes ago, Truthless16 said:

 

Radiants would have shardplates.

Shardplate is still vulnerable to impacts and alluminum impacts that eventually pierce it also stop its regeneration. A pewter compunder with hardened alluminum weapons would be devastating to even a shard armed radiant up close. It would just cost a lot of money to arm him or her. The alluminum would damage and disable the shardplate, resist shardswords, and interfer with all the radiant abilities such as healing and surges. Alluminum guns, spears, arrows, darts, knives, daggers, swords, nets, and armor in the hands of a pewter compounder would likely tip the scales in favor of the Twinborn.

A steel compunder even without alluminum would be a challenge to KR's as well.

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Iron compounder could prove to be a challenge to KR's.

The ablitiy to compound mass would mean they could become a gravity sink they do affect the higgs field so they can affect gravity.(coppermind Iron)

Because of near ulimited weight their metal pulls would be very powerful and they could have Iron armor acting as their metalmind held and manipulated by their Iron pulls through a system of levers, pullies, and chains or cables making it in essense enhanced body armor. Because it would be a filled metalmind it would be resistant to shardblades. Their metal pulls would likely enable them to bring the KR inside shardblade range where they could batter the shardplate into pieces. Enhanced weight comes with enhanced strenth. If the battle starts to go against them they could store mass and pull away. They could also equip their body armor with enhanced ranged weapons like metal booberangs or guns. even if they miss with their shots they could pull the bullets back for a second chance and perhaps have them return with even more momentum from behind into the back of the KR.

They might have an innate ablility to calculate vectors, momentum, and surface tension. In addition they would likely have inhuman finesse and balance.

Even a windrunner would find this Scadrian a challenge. 7 of 10 to the compounder in first contact. break even after.

Edited by BenduLuke
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18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Even better the heat or static buildup can be guided by the spiritual connection.

They don't use electromagnetism, they just don't have it.

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Iron compounder could prove to be a challenge to KR's.

The ablitiy to compound mass would mean they could become a gravity sink they do affect the higgs field so they can affect gravity.(coppermind Iron)

Because of near ulimited weight their metal pulls would be very powerful and they could have Iron armor acting as their metalmind held and manipulated by their Iron pulls through a system of levers, pullies, and chains or cables making it in essense enhanced body armor. Because it would be a filled metalmind it would be resistant to shardblades. Their metal pulls would likely enable them to bring the KR inside shardblade range where they could batter the shardplate into pieces. Enhanced weight comes with enhanced strenth. If the battle starts to go against them they could store mass and pull away. They could also equip their body armor with enhanced ranged weapons like metal booberangs or guns. even if they miss with their shots they could pull the bullets back for a second chance and perhaps have them return with even more momentum from behind into the back of the KR.

They might have an innate ablility to calculate vectors, momentum, and surface tension. In addition they would likely have inhuman finesse and balance.

Even a windrunner would find this Scadrian a challenge. 7 of 10 to the compounder in first contact. break even after.

Have a lightweaver bombard them with GamaRadiation.

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20 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

It is confirmed that it is not a savant ability, and we know it isn't a resonance because we have seen another non-crasher twinborn use a steel bubble, so what Resonance Wax has is still unconfirmed and should not be used as template, and Miles being a compounder is not a resonance. Compounding is not an ability that grows over time of using both powers, it's just using both powers together. so neither are a good template. We really have no idea on any resonance for twinborn.

 

Your asking us to make up possible hypothetical resonances for twinborn when we have no idea what their resonances could possibly be.

 

That is incredibly far fetched and doesn't follow the trend of the resonances we are sure about, which seem more passive.

He also said the steel bubble is a resonance

Waxillium Ladrian's ability to create a "steel bubble" to deflect metal moving around him[29]  result of  the resonance between his Allomantic steel and Feruchemical iron.

yes I am asking you to speculate on possible resonances.

resonances are not so much passive as intrinsic or instinctive.

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3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

He also said the steel bubble is a resonance

Waxillium Ladrian's ability to create a "steel bubble" to deflect metal moving around him[29]  result of  the resonance between his Allomantic steel and Feruchemical iron.

yes I am asking you to speculate on possible resonances.

resonances are not so much passive as intrinsic or instinctive.

long WoB 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

 

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7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They don't use electromagnetism, they just don't have it.

Have a lightweaver bombard them with GamaRadiation.

Sure they do they have light, but the static or heat buildup would come from the friction inherant with moving fast through the air, and the steel push might be able to guide the discharge at a target.

Great counter, but Iron does have a degree of radiation resistance. I was thinking a Skybreaker or Dustbringers division surge might prove a challenge. Holy rusted metal lurcher man.

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1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

He also said the steel bubble is a resonance

Waxillium Ladrian's ability to create a "steel bubble" to deflect metal moving around him[29]  result of  the resonance between his Allomantic steel and Feruchemical iron.

yes I am asking you to speculate on possible resonances.

resonances are not so much passive as intrinsic or instinctive.

"Similar ability can be later seen in use by other Coinshot, so it isn't specific for this combination of powers."

Books come first, and we have seen others use this ability, so it is highly unlikely that the steel bubble is a resonance.

Make your own thread for that

There hasn't been enough of a pattern to guess what resonances could be, but the one pattern that is consist os that they are not very useful in direct combat

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1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Great counter, but Iron does have a degree of radiation resistance. I was thinking a Skybreaker or Dustbringers division surge might prove a challenge. Holy rusted metal lurcher man.

True, but it is a good conductor, so if we get a Stormfor regal involved...

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Just now, Frustration said:

long WoB 

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

 

Note I quoted it as a resonance not a savant ability. It is Wax's lack of savant negative consequences that has him back peddling and has him indicating it as more of a resonance instead. Savantism and Resonance can come together but they don't have to. It also explains why another crasher can develop a steel bubble.

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Just now, BenduLuke said:

Note I quoted it as a resonance not a savant ability. It is Wax's lack of savant negative consequences that has him back peddling and has him indicating it as more of a resonance instead. Savantism and Resonance can come together but they don't have to. It also explains why another crasher can develop a steel bubble.

Sorry I didn't highlight enough, if you go back about two sentences he talks about how Savantism was part of the Resonance when that was the case.

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Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

We haven't seen another crahser. We have seen a F-pewter and A steel do a steel bubble, which is evidence against it being a resonance.

I'm fairly confident that the steel bubble is just a clever application of Intent rather than a Resonance or Savantism. Like, if you figure out how to do it right, any Coinshot can do the steel bubble thing. Tapping F-Iron would supplement it by making the Coinshot harder to push away with the kinetic energy of a bullet, making the bullet deflect more off course than normal.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

True, but it is a good conductor, so if we get a Stormfor regal involved...

True, but what I was saying is that Iron can be used as a radiation shield. It is better than dirt and worse than lead. Iron compounder and stormform. Iron compounder as I have describe them better be grounded or have a shocking experience.

Just now, Frustration said:

Sorry I didn't highlight enough, if you go back about two sentences he talks about how Savantism was part of the Resonance when that was the case.

Yes both savantism and resonances can lead to each other. In the case of Wax it is more of a resonance but not quite savant ability. You do see Wax using the 2 abilities almost like one giving him far more finesse than is typical. He uses Both abilities like they are tied together, almost instinctively.

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Just now, BenduLuke said:

True, but what I was saying is that Iron can be used as a radiation shield. It is better than dirt and worse than lead. Iron compounder and stormform. Iron compounder as I have describe them better be grounded or have a shocking experience.

Yes both savantism and resonances can lead to each other. In the case of Wax it is more of a resonance but not quite savant ability. You do see Wax using the 2 abilities almost like one giving him far more finesse than is typical. He uses Both abilities like they are tied together, almost instinctively.

He could just be incredibly skilled.

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5 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I'm fairly confident that the steel bubble is just a clever application of Intent rather than a Resonance or Savantism. Like, if you figure out how to do it right, any Coinshot can do the steel bubble thing. Tapping F-Iron would supplement it by making the Coinshot harder to push away with the kinetic energy of a bullet, making the bullet deflect more off course than normal.

Not sure it is an application of intent so much as experience and trained reflex. His F-iron also allows for subtle shifts in gravity (changes in mass = changes in gravity) which aided him in mastering it faster and more effectively. @Aspiring Writer mentioned that the other person to have a Steel bubble had F-Pewter and that makes sense as well since having greater strength allows for greater immovability as well, but that steel bubble wouldn't be working exactly the same.

F-Iron does affect Higgs Fields which affect gravity. (Coppermind Iron).

A steel bubble would likely evolve as a resonance of many Coinshot involved twinborn or as a savant ability in a Coinshot misting though it would come with some down sides. A coinshot would likely have a steel bubble which creates burning deflected projectiles or that draws off the some of the momemtum from the projectile as heat stored in a metal mind.

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Just now, BenduLuke said:

Of course a resonance would present like that.

The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. 

—Khriss.[1] 
A Resonance is an extra ability unrelated to the other powers.
And it's from the books so it trumps WoB
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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study. 

—Khriss.[1] 
A Resonance is an extra ability unrelated to the other powers.
And it's from the books so it trumps WoB

What makes you think it is unrelated? All the resonance we are reasonably sure of are related to their orders.

Vin couldn't create a steel bubble so not a mistborn power, but a possible resonance for a coinshot related to but not initially one of their powers. A steel bubble is an effect of steel pushes in response to experience and the steel more efficiently resonating with the misting. Some F ability like Iron accelerate that experience and acquisition of the effect.

Khriss said unique, and distinctive, not unrelated. The effect would have to be related. In the case of orders of KR it appears to be related to the ideals as much or more than the powers. Windrunners get increase numbers of and capability of squires which appears to be related to the ideals of Protecting and leading on which windrunners are founded. You see something similar happening with Edgedancers.

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