Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The Anti-Void tone pushed on the Voidlight in Rabonial's gemheart.

that is not pushing out but destructive interference and they are not reversed, they are inverse.

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

that is not pushing out but destructive interference and they are not reversed, they are inverse.

""I felt the Voidlight in my gemheart respond. It wasn't ejected, but my very soul cringed at the sound." -Raboniel on Anti-Odium tone 1044 Rhythm of War

[BenduLuke]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

""I felt the Voidlight in my gemheart respond. It wasn't ejected, but my very soul cringed at the sound." -Raboniel on Anti-Odium tone 1044 Rhythm of War

Right that is a responce to the destructive interference. They wont push each other out but annihilate each other when brought into full contact. the tone was only part of the anti-light.

In truth light vs anti-light are the same tone perfectly out of phase. that is what it means to be inverted. Reversed is nonsensical when discussing sound, waves, or light.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Right that is a responce to the destructive interference. They wont push each other out but annihilate each other when brought into full contact. the tone was only part of the anti-light.

In truth light vs anti-light are the same tone perfectly out of phase. that is what it means to be inverted. Reversed is nonsensical when discussing sound, waves, or light.

If you check page 1043 it shows that when the Anti tone is played it ejects Voidlight from a gem, and even within her the Voidlight in Raboniels gemheart recoils from it.

[BenduLuke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If you check page 1043 it shows that when the Anti tone is played it ejects Voidlight from a gem, and even within her the Voidlight in Raboniels gemheart recoils from it.

Right but the anti-voidlight would be deflected from the gem heart because of Raboniels will. Gems have no independent will. why anti voidlight had to be stabbed into her. once in contact; annihilation.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Right but the anti-voidlight would be deflected from the gem heart because of Raboniels will. Gems have no independent will. why anti voidlight had to be stabbed into her. once in contact; annihilation.

no, it's because of Raboniels innate investiture, will has nothing to do with it.

[NameIess]

Basically, I'm pretty sure that if you play an anti-tone loud enough, it will force the investiture away from it. Including the investiture used by the metalborn. A coppercloud might block it.

[BenduLuke]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:11 PM, Nameless said:

Basically, I'm pretty sure that if you play an anti-tone loud enough, it will force the investiture away from it. Including the investiture used by the metalborn. A coppercloud might block it.

Yes and a metal born would have an advantage knowing which tone to use especially a Seeker.

[BenduLuke]

On 1/16/2021 at 4:05 PM, Frustration said:

no, it's because of Raboniels innate investiture, will has nothing to do with it.

A gem could have the same amount of investiture so will or sentience would logically have something to do with resisting anti-tones.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

A gem could have the same amount of investiture so will or sentience would logically have something to do with resisting anti-tones.

Can you easily push on metal inside someones body, no,

can you easily push out the Voidlight inside someones gemheart, no

Logically it would be the same reason, not something new. 

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Yes and a metal born would have an advantage knowing which tone to use especially a Seeker.

I don't think it matters. You don't need a different tone for each order of KR, so I don't think you would need anything other than Preservation's anit-tone to shut down a Mistborn.

[BenduLuke]

5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Can you easily push on metal inside someones body, no,

can you easily push out the Voidlight inside someones gemheart, no

Logically it would be the same reason, not something new. 

yes the 2 effects could be related but since they are different systems they could also be substantially different.

3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't think it matters. You don't need a different tone for each order of KR, so I don't think you would need anything other than Preservation's anit-tone to shut down a Mistborn.

Odds are that you need a different tone for Lyft than for other Knights. It may not be Preservation's anti-pulse that you need to shut down a Mistborn since Preservation is no longer relevant. In addition Finding the proper tone for a twinborn would be more complicated if a tone exists. Still it's likely that someone with Seeker abilities would have an advantage discovering and using anti-pulses or anti-light and could produce far more targeted attacks.

Navani might need an alternate tone to other KR's as well. To counter Scadrian investiture you likely need at least 4 different anti-pulses: Allomantic, Feruchemic, Hemulurgic, and Trellic to be sure. Or just use Aluminum on any invested person you fight. Some Aluminum alloys are stronger than steel but also disable invested abilities. The Aluminum bullets used against Wax were an alloy.

One thing you may have overlooked about KR's anti-tone is that Stormlight is a generic investiture powering specific surges, but metal arts are specific investitures powering genetically unique abilities so with metal arts you just might need 16 tones just for allomancy, 16 more for feruchemy and so on.

[NameIess]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

Odds are that you need a different tone for Lyft than for other Knights. It may not be Preservation's anti-pulse that you need to shut down a Mistborn since Preservation is no longer relevant. In addition Finding the proper tone for a twinborn would be more complicated if a tone exists. Still it's likely that someone with Seeker abilities would have an advantage discovering and using anti-pulses or anti-light and could produce far more targeted attacks.

Mistborn take investiture from the shard of Preservation, not Ruin. The shards being combined does not change that. Again, all the Rosharans have to do is create anti-tones one time, and they never have to find them again. Scadrians don't even know that anti-tones exist.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

yes the 2 effects could be related but since they are different systems they could also be substantially different.

The investiture of living things is an established part of the Cosmere

Investiture resisting investiture is likewise established

They are most certainly related.

[BenduLuke]

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Mistborn take investiture from the shard of Preservation, not Ruin. The shards being combined does not change that. Again, all the Rosharans have to do is create anti-tones one time, and they never have to find them again. Scadrians don't even know that anti-tones exist.

Not sure it is quite that simple with metalborn magic. There are different pulses for each metal ability so logically you need different anti-pulses for each. In addition there are 4 sources for metal born magic. 3 created through Harmony (Preservation, Ruin, and combined) and one from Trell. Any time you have multiple abilities like with twinborn, Mistborn, Feruchemy, or any misting, feriing, hemalugic, trell hemalurgic combination would likely complicate the necessary tone if it is a tone at all. You might need a distinct tone for each ability and each source to effectively produce anti-metal pulses.

Metalborn seem to have unique genetic abilities each powered by individual metals and each producing their own pulse. Rosharan magic seems to be divided into 3 tones/light which are utilized by specific bonds. Another way of saying it is that Rosharans all run on 1 or more of  3 different power sources where Scadrians have 16 different power sources with potentially 4 different power generators. At minimum to counter Scadrians you might need 4,096 pulses or maybe even over 16,000 different pulses, where Rosharans if you find the 3 prime tones you can get their 27 anti-tones or Anti-light presuming you can combine the 3 sources of light.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The investiture of living things is an established part of the Cosmere

Investiture resisting investiture is likewise established

They are most certainly related.

Related yes, the same not necessarily.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Metalborn seem to have unique genetic abilities each powered by individual metals and each producing their own pulse. Rosharan magic seems to be divided into 3 tones/light which are utilized by specific bonds. Another way of saying it is that Rosharans all run on 1 or more of  3 different power sources where Scadrians have 16 different power sources with potentially 4 different power generators. At minimum to counter Scadrians you might need 4,096 pulses or maybe even over 16,000 different pulses, where Rosharans if you find the 3 prime tones you can get their 27 anti-tones or Anti-light presuming you can combine the 3 sources of light.

So, at most you would need 32 tones to counter metalborn. I think, however, that you actually only need to use 3 at most, Harmony's tone, Preservation's tone, and Ruin's tone. Mistborn and Mistings get their power from their connection to Preservation, so if you destroy that connection, they would be unable to get power.

[+Bzhydack]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure it is quite that simple with metalborn magic. There are different pulses for each metal ability so logically you need different anti-pulses for each. In addition there are 4 sources for metal born magic. 3 created through Harmony (Preservation, Ruin, and combined) and one from Trell. Any time you have multiple abilities like with twinborn, Mistborn, Feruchemy, or any misting, feriing, hemalugic, trell hemalurgic combination would likely complicate the necessary tone if it is a tone at all. You might need a distinct tone for each ability and each source to effectively produce anti-metal pulses.

Metalborn seem to have unique genetic abilities each powered by individual metals and each producing their own pulse. Rosharan magic seems to be divided into 3 tones/light which are utilized by specific bonds. Another way of saying it is that Rosharans all run on 1 or more of  3 different power sources where Scadrians have 16 different power sources with potentially 4 different power generators. At minimum to counter Scadrians you might need 4,096 pulses or maybe even over 16,000 different pulses, where Rosharans if you find the 3 prime tones you can get their 27 anti-tones or Anti-light presuming you can combine the 3 sources of light.

No, you will need just few tones:

- Anti-Preservation tone for Mistborn and Mistings (and it makes me mad when you are refering every allomancer and allomancer-ferruchemist hybrid as Mistborm. Mistborn is very specific Allomancer, this one who can burn all metals)

- Anti-Ruin for Hemalurgic Constructs and spiked people

- Ant-Harmony for Ferruchemists

- Combined Ant-Preservation and Anti-Harmony for Twinborn

There is also Trell, he probably has his own Tone (Anti-Autonomy?)

And yes, Coppercloud probably can shield Scadrians.

On 16.01.2021 at 9:24 PM, Frustration said:

Alright then, where is Harmony's perpendicularly?

Probably in the South, in Ettmetal Mines (or wherever Southerners get it).

Also, Ettmetal. It has very interesting properties - can store Investiture and magifie its Effect. Noone is talking about it, and this is Scadrian wild card. And primer-cube grenades are just the simpliest way to use it.

Also, we know is possible to make Lerasium and Atium from Ettmetal. We also know Sazed can make Lerasium ans Atium if he wants to. So simply ask him and we can have as many metalborn as we want (my theory is lerasium-ettmetal alloy is what is needet to make Ferruchemist).

BTW, full Ferruchemist with full metalminds kills Radiant who cannot fly in like 9 times of 10.

[Frustration]

Something I just thought of is the Old Magic, something which has potentially game changing power.

[BenduLuke]

23 hours ago, Nameless said:

So, at most you would need 32 tones to counter metalborn. I think, however, that you actually only need to use 3 at most, Harmony's tone, Preservation's tone, and Ruin's tone. Mistborn and Mistings get their power from their connection to Preservation, so if you destroy that connection, they would be unable to get power.

Each metal ability has its own pulse so it is likely that you need a minimum of 32 pulses. If a person has multiple metal abilities you might need at the very least multiple pulses or even some resonance of the pulses for their various abilities. For example Was is a twinborn so you would likely need at least 3 pulses to counter his metal born abilities to account for his misting, ferring, and resonances.

20 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

No, you will need just few tones:

- Anti-Preservation tone for Mistborn and Mistings (and it makes me mad when you are refering every allomancer and allomancer-ferruchemist hybrid as Mistborm. Mistborn is very specific Allomancer, this one who can burn all metals)

- Anti-Ruin for Hemalurgic Constructs and spiked people

- Ant-Harmony for Ferruchemists

- Combined Ant-Preservation and Anti-Harmony for Twinborn

There is also Trell, he probably has his own Tone (Anti-Autonomy?)

And yes, Coppercloud probably can shield Scadrians.

Probably in the South, in Ettmetal Mines (or wherever Southerners get it).

Also, Ettmetal. It has very interesting properties - can store Investiture and magifie its Effect. Noone is talking about it, and this is Scadrian wild card. And primer-cube grenades are just the simpliest way to use it.

Also, we know is possible to make Lerasium and Atium from Ettmetal. We also know Sazed can make Lerasium ans Atium if he wants to. So simply ask him and we can have as many metalborn as we want (my theory is lerasium-ettmetal alloy is what is needet to make Ferruchemist).

BTW, full Ferruchemist with full metalminds kills Radiant who cannot fly in like 9 times of 10.

Each metal ability seems to have its own pulse unlike on roshar where each light has its own tone. That is related to how the investiture is granted. For Wax you may need anti steel allomancy pulse, anti iron feruchemy pulse, and or an anti resonance pulse to fully disable his metal abilities.

Why do you think Ferruchemists can almost always beat Radiants?

How would ettmetal affect stormlight and surges?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Something I just thought of is the Old Magic, something which has potentially game changing power.

It seems to me that Old Magic is the Rosharan analog to Feruchemy since you take from one thing to strengthen another. The blessing and curse thing.

We haven't actually seen a case of Old Magic, since each case presumed to be Old Magic have been Cultivation directly manipulating things, so in the end no actual curse like the Night Walker would give.

Still old magic could be game changing.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Each metal ability seems to have its own pulse unlike on roshar where each light has its own tone. That is related to how the investiture is granted. For Wax you may need anti steel allomancy pulse, anti iron feruchemy pulse, and or an anti resonance pulse to fully disable his metal abilities.

The beats of the well are the Pure tone of Preservation.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Frustration

[BenduLuke]

I was thinking last night that an Aluminum Twin Savant might be potentially lethal for any invested being. As an aluminum savant nat they would likely be immune to Shardblades, because Shardblades cannot cut living flesh, and while burning aluminum they would be immune to the severing affect. They might also produce an aluminum bubble which would nullify all investiture within it causing Shardplate to dissolve, physical and healing enhancements to fail, immunity to all lashings, division surges, and soul casting for the nat. With the investiture nullified they may be able to store the KR and Spren Identities in their metal mind which after killing the KR with a single shot or slice could be recovered, to potentially bond the Spren themselves.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I was thinking last night that an Aluminum Twin Savant might be potentially lethal for any invested being. As an aluminum savant nat they would likely be immune to Shardblades, because Shardblades cannot cut living flesh, and while burning aluminum they would be immune to the severing affect. They might also produce an aluminum bubble which would nullify all investiture within it causing Shardplate to dissolve, physical and healing enhancements to fail, immunity to all lashings, division surges, and soul casting for the nat. With the investiture nullified they may be able to store the KR and Spren Identities in their metal mind which after killing the KR with a single shot or slice could be recovered, to potentially bond the Spren themselves.

Alumminum instantly removes itself.

[BenduLuke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The beats of the well are the Pure tone of Preservation.

Bronze reveals that each metal has its own pulse, not that there is a single pulse for all allomancy. That is one of the differences between the Scadrian magic system and the Rosharan system. If a seeker could determine the aluminum pulse they would likely be able to nullify any form of investiture, except by its nature discovering that pulse might be virtually impossible.

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Alumminum instantly removes itself.

In the coppermind it says that an aluminum nat savant would be immune to investiture injuries and effects. It also disrupts bend alloy bubbles around its own bubble. Aluminum doesn't actually remove itself it removes all other investiture.

[Frustration]

Just now, BenduLuke said:

In the coppermind it says that an aluminum nat savant would be immune to investiture injuries and effects. It also disrupts bend alloy bubbles around its own bubble. Aluminum doesn't actually remove itself it removes all other investiture.

When Vin burned it in TFE she had no metals left, none, aluminum included.