Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

It isn't as simple as that, having their brain smashed in would stop a Radiant. Merely pulling out an arrow caused Shallan to black out and used pretty much all of her Stormlight to heal from.

Renarin got litterally flattened by a thunderclast and shrugged it off but sure.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

That was after literal hours of fighting, they died because they were too exhausted from the non-stop slaughter they were doing.

 

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Where is your logic in this?

I imagine due to these orders being more military in nature.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

A hammer with sufficient enough mass to break Plate can be lifted by two men, Pewter gives the Allomancer greater strength than that.

Ahhh and yet shardplate wearing men with shard hammers dont instant win over shard baldes.

 

The simple fact is a live shard blade offeres better offence then a mistborn, live shardplate offers better defense, and at best a mistborn need to rely on atium to beat impenetrable armour while wearing cloth and wielding daggers. Your comparing a tank vs a man without armour and a pistol. Even if the man can see the future for a small amount of time they cant so anything to the tank.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

That was after literal hours of fighting, they died because they were too exhausted from the non-stop slaughter they were doing.

Now I wonder what kind of healing, protective, and strength giving powers, would be useful to fight for hours on end.

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Where is your logic in this?

Considering the fact that they where the most skilled in combat of any order and Epigraph of chapter 37 in WoR specifically points out the Stonewards similarities to Taln, the greatest warrior ever.

8 hours ago, StanLemon said:

A hammer with sufficient enough mass to break Plate can be lifted by two men, Pewter gives the Allomancer greater strength than that.

Sufficient mass to Crack plate. Crack it not break, and certainly not enough to go through the plate and kill the person inside.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[Raven Wilder]

It's mentioned that Shardplate always cracks before it breaks. Whether you're hitting it with a Shardblade or a hammer blow or something else powerful enough to damage it, the Plate will still always withstand that first blow without doing more than cracking; you need to hit that same section of Plate a second time if you want to break it apart.

[StanLemon]

7 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Renarin got litterally flattened by a thunderclast and shrugged it off but sure.

Also Renarin has Progression and just because he got flattened doesn't mean his head got injured.

7 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I imagine due to these orders being more military in nature.

I could acknowledge that makes sense. But someone who's good at working in a group doesn't always translate to good one on one abilities

7 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Ahhh and yet shardplate wearing men with shard hammers dont instant win over shard baldes.

It still gives them the ability to break Plate

7 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

The simple fact is a live shard blade offeres better offence then a mistborn, live shardplate offers better defense, and at best a mistborn need to rely on atium to beat impenetrable armour while wearing cloth and wielding daggers. Your comparing a tank vs a man without armour and a pistol. Even if the man can see the future for a small amount of time they cant so anything to the tank.

Way of Kings proves that Plate and Blade aren't as insurmountable as you claim

2 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Now I wonder what kind of healing, protective, and strength giving powers, would be useful to fight for hours on end.

Radiants aren't efficient enough with Investiture for that. Pretty much every battle they have had unless they have had a particular large source of Stormlight, Radiants have burned through their Stormlight very quickly. This would be even worse if the Mistborn has Chromium. It's why I think Bondsmiths who can open Perpendicularity are the only truly unstoppable Radiants for a Mistborn 

2 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Considering the fact that they where the most skilled in combat of any order and Epigraph of chapter 37 in WoR specifically points out the Stonewards similarities to Taln, the greatest warrior ever.

That epigraph easily could be enterprited as they shared personality and mindset. Not skills

2 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Sufficient mass to Crack plate. Crack it not break, and certainly not enough to go through the plate and kill the person inside.

As @Raven Wilder pointed out, Shardplate always cracks first. After it has cracked it loses a lot of integrity, which admittedly  an be mitigated with healing the Plate but that drains Stormlight. 

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Also Renarin has Progression and just because he got flattened doesn't mean his head got injured.

So Renarin got litterally pancaked and you dont think his head was injured, what did the thunderclast miss him? It squished him from above his head took the brunt of the impact.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I could acknowledge that makes sense. But someone who's good at working in a group doesn't always translate to good one on one abilities

Its more about their proficiency with the shardblade, soldiers still practice individual drills, especially with how shardbearers have to fight (collateral damage and all).

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

It still gives them the ability to break Plate

Yes plate can break, but not easily

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Way of Kings proves that Plate and Blade aren't as insurmountable as you claim

You mean where Sadies was being beaten on by tens of Parshendi constantly for minutes and was still alive in his plate, yer its pretty insurmountable especially on a 1v1 situation.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Radiants aren't efficient enough with Investiture for that. Pretty much every battle they have had unless they have had a particular large source of Stormlight, Radiants have burned through their Stormlight very quickly. This would be even worse if the Mistborn has Chromium. It's why I think Bondsmiths who can open Perpendicularity are the only truly unstoppable Radiants for a Mistborn 

So the problem witn chromium is touch right. And what happens when the mistborn touches a radient with a glowing death stick? At best they lose an arm, permanently, at worst they eat a shardblade to the face, depending on if they have atium or not. Thats even assuming it works against plate.

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

That epigraph easily could be enterprited as they shared personality and mindset. Not skills

As @Raven Wilder pointed out, Shardplate always cracks first. After it has cracked it loses a lot of integrity, which admittedly  an be mitigated with healing the Plate but that drains Stormlight. 

Yer it can break, but look at Adolin it took 4 men in shards beating at him and it still only broke two pieces and drained his light. And that was dead plate

 

Could a mistborn kill an incapacitated radiant in plate sure, could they incapacitate said radient first, not likely. A mistborn takes one hit to kill, the radient takes hundreds if not thousands to incapacitate. A mistborn doesnt have the stoping power to beat plate.

[Azarias]

What if the mistborn used chromium?

From the Coppermind:

A Leecher can also drain other forms of Investiture. They would be fairly effective at draining a person's Breath or Stormlight.^[6] They would also be able to Leech from a Lifeless.^[7] A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,^[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working.^[2] 

If they used atium to get close, drained a radiant of their stormlight, and then used pewter, I'd say it would be a pretty easy win for the mistborn. Especially if they used chromium and duralium.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Azarias said:

What if the mistborn used chromium?

From the Coppermind:

A Leecher can also drain other forms of Investiture. They would be fairly effective at draining a person's Breath or Stormlight.^[6] They would also be able to Leech from a Lifeless.^[7] A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,^[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working.^[2] 

If they used atium to get close, drained a radiant of their stormlight, and then used pewter, I'd say it would be a pretty easy win for the mistborn. Especially if they used chromium and duralium.

It would likely only draw from plate, as it requires contact.

[Bigmikey357]

If you're a Mistborn hoping to beat a Radiant your only option is to catch them unaware.  That becomes increasingly difficult for a 4th Oath Radiant with perma-Plate/Reactive Armor. Even with Atium,  even with guns, breaking through a Radiant's many defenses to deliver a one-shot kill is going to be nearly impossible.  They just do not have the tools. 

2 minutes ago, Azarias said:

What if the mistborn used chromium?

From the Coppermind:

A Leecher can also drain other forms of Investiture. They would be fairly effective at draining a person's Breath or Stormlight.^[6] They would also be able to Leech from a Lifeless.^[7] A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,^[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working.^[2] 

If they used atium to get close, drained a radiant of their stormlight, and then used pewter, I'd say it would be a pretty easy win for the mistborn. Especially if they used chromium and duralium.

Chromium Leeching isn't instant, and only really drains kinetic Investiture.  At best this scenario proposed would take 2 or 3 seconds,  during which time you're draining Plate. The Radiant is untouched,  meaning that while you're standing there trying to drain the Radiant you're catching a Shardblade to the face or a crippling punch. So that's a strategy one would use after a prolonged fight, as your ace in the hole.  Atium is only an I Win button if you can deliver an instant kill,  and there are very few things that can instant kill a Radiant, especially one topped off with Stormlight.  

Use the right tools for the job.  You wanna kill a high level Radiant?  You're going to need a Fullborn. 

[Lemiltock]

4 hours ago, Azarias said:

What if the mistborn used chromium?

From the Coppermind:

A Leecher can also drain other forms of Investiture. They would be fairly effective at draining a person's Breath or Stormlight.^[6] They would also be able to Leech from a Lifeless.^[7] A Leecher could prevent a Shardbearer from summoning their blade,^[8] and can prevent a weapon using Investiture from working.^[2] 

If they used atium to get close, drained a radiant of their stormlight, and then used pewter, I'd say it would be a pretty easy win for the mistborn. Especially if they used chromium and duralium.

As i stated earlier, the mistborn wearing no protection needs to touch the radiant who has a morphing death stick, so maybe they drain some investiture, maybe it works on live plate, but the definitley lose an arm and probably their life. Even with atium a dagger vs a long spear or twohand sword doesnt end well for the dagger.

[StanLemon]

6 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So Renarin got litterally pancaked and you dont think his head was injured, what did the thunderclast miss him? It squished him from above his head took the brunt of the impact.

Again, Renarin has Progression which lets him heal more quickly. Also, rereading that scene, Renarin doesn't get fully crushed. He cuts away at the hand as it is coming down. 

6 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So the problem witn chromium is touch right. And what happens when the mistborn touches a radient with a glowing death stick? At best they lose an arm, permanently, at worst they eat a shardblade to the face, depending on if they have atium or not. Thats even assuming it works against plate.

And a Mistborn's entire fighting style is centered around avoiding hits and delivering critical blows. Between Electrum and Atium, that's more than possible. Even without, it should be quite possible for a Mistborn to avoid. Especially if their is sufficient metal on the battlefield to Push off of and Pewter giving them quicker reflexes than the Radiant.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If you're a Mistborn hoping to beat a Radiant your only option is to catch them unaware.  That becomes increasingly difficult for a 4th Oath Radiant with perma-Plate/Reactive Armor. Even with Atium,  even with guns, breaking through a Radiant's many defenses to deliver a one-shot kill is going to be nearly impossible.  They just do not have the tools. 

Chromium Leeching isn't instant, and only really drains kinetic Investiture.  At best this scenario proposed would take 2 or 3 seconds,  during which time you're draining Plate. The Radiant is untouched,  meaning that while you're standing there trying to drain the Radiant you're catching a Shardblade to the face or a crippling punch. So that's a strategy one would use after a prolonged fight, as your ace in the hole.  Atium is only an I Win button if you can deliver an instant kill,  and there are very few things that can instant kill a Radiant, especially one topped off with Stormlight.  

Use the right tools for the job.  You wanna kill a high level Radiant?  You're going to need a Fullborn. 

Point of reference. Chromium isn't instant but it's fast enough that it only would take a couple of seconds. Atium would allow the Mistborn to dodge any attack from the Radiant in those couple of seconds. Also, if a Mistborn has a gun, they would very quick burn through the Radiant's Stormlight as a gun only needs like two shots to break Plate.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Even with atium a dagger vs a long spear or twohand sword doesnt end well for the dagger.

This statement is blatantly untrue. We have repeatedly seen Atium easily bypass pretty much any offense or defense

Do the Radiants have a huge advantage advantage? Very much so. Are they unstoppable juggernauts, not even close. I'd wager 7-9 fights out of 10 a Radiant would win, but they wouldn't win every fight. And if we did give a Mistborn all 16 metals, Atium, and a gun I would argue it would be about 50/50 because guns are that much of a leveling factor

[Bigmikey357]

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Point of reference. Chromium isn't instant but it's fast enough that it only would take a couple of seconds. Atium would allow the Mistborn to dodge any attack from the Radiant in those couple of seconds. Also, if a Mistborn has a gun, they would very quick burn through the Radiant's Stormlight as a gun only needs like two shots to break Plate.

I agree it would take a couple seconds.  But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact,  during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done?  Possibly.  Atium would help a great deal.  A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant.  

Guns are a significant game changer, it betters a Mistborn's chances while also denying the Radiant a useful tool.   But the guns of Scadrial are not quite advanced enough to tip the scales when we consider a Radiant's offensive capabilities.  Windrunners/Skybreakers can move out of range or change that Mistborn's gravity at a touch. Stonewards can raise a bulwark or turn the ground into quicksand.  Grasp hands with an Elsecaller/ Lightweaver and get turned into a crystal statue, ect. For guns to tip the scales they have to be much more advanced.  Automatic weapons with speedy reload times, firing high velocity rounds. That allows the Mistborn to stay out of most Radiants kill range while still causing enough damage to make that Radiant burn through Stormlight.  Even still,  the Radiant has the defenses to where they can make numerous mistakes and still live victorious.  The Mistborn has no margin of error.  But those Mistborn guns are low range and inaccurate beyond a few feet. Don't take Wax's accuracy as the standard,  he's supernaturally gifted with his pistol. 

Still 9 times out of 10 wins for the Radiant sounds reasonable.  I'd possibly go as low as 8 of 10 or 7 of 10 with Atium use but for me it's no more than that. Not against that armor.  

Crazy couple things though.  1, a Mistborn could quite easily beat a level 1 or 2 Radiant given Atium.  3rd gets tricky,  that 4th is rather out of their league IMO.  2, guns + Atium isn't as great a combo as it looks at first glance.  Bullets won't have an Atium shadow once fired, their position is fixed once they leave the chamber. The farther the target is away,  the better chance of dodging the shot. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Pewter giving them quicker reflexes than the Radiant.

Stormlight Alone is on par with the reflexes of Pewter, And Plate puts them above both reflexes and strength.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

And if we did give a Mistborn all 16 metals, Atium, and a gun I would argue it would be about 50/50 because guns are that much of a leveling factor

I'd argue that without Atium it's a 10/10 Radiant with it about 6-10/10 depending on the Order. And giving Mistborn guns opens up a whole can of wroms I think we'd all rather not deal with.

[Raven Wilder]

I think people aren't discussing duralumin enough here. To deal enough damage to get past a Radiant's Shardplate and/or healing while staying out of Shardblade range, duralumin-enhanced steelpushes are really the obvious way to go. And if the Mistborn has access to all the metals, then after each flare of duralumin, they could throw up a bendalloy speed bubble, down another vial of metal while in sped up time, then drop the bubble and hit 'em with another duralumin attack so quickly, it will seem like almost no pause at all.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Raven Wilder

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

It would likely only draw from plate, as it requires contact.

That would be enough. Locked Plate is even worse than no Plate. You'd be helpless.

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If you're a Mistborn hoping to beat a Radiant your only option is to catch them unaware.

Or the alternative of wearing them down. Metals last for decades. Gemstones for weeks.

 

[mosaab]

full Shardbearing radiant without surges but with stormlight beats Mistborn final empire version nine out of ten times, argument for waiting out the radiant's stormlight are not arguments for who can beat who in a straight fight.

shard plate cracks are a prelude to it breaking in 2 or 3 consecutive strikes at the same spot is a misconception, that only happens with shardblade strikes and it has more to do with the Conection severing nature of shardblades (separating the soul from the body, separating the lesser spren from each other?) than with the strength of the blade or strike, I think.

[i’m in the details]

Parshendi swinging one handed swords and hammers could crack plate with a single blow. Bullets generate far more force than even an enhanced weapon swing and hit a smaller surface area. If I had a super weapon swinging at me and I was a mistborn I’d throw up a bendalloy bubble and reposition, which is an advantage I’m not seeing mentioned enough. Also u less they order in question can fly, a mistborn can pretty easily stay out of the way of a shardblade, assuming the fight happens in a semi urban enviroment (enough metals). And finally mistborn can rapidly generate small arms fire velocity coins that would most certainly crack plate on a hit, again far more force with a smaller surface area than a hammer. How does a radiant who can’t fly stop a mistborn 20 feet in the air just yeeting coins and bullets at them? That said most fights maybe 6/10 depending on the order and the oaths I would give to radients. 

[mosaab]

where is this idea that shardbearers would just stand there for mistborn to swing around and attack comes from? urban areas are just as beneficial to shardbearers as mistborn. the can hide behind walls, enter building, jump between roof tops....etc.

they can jump tens of feet in the air, kick bodies more than 20 ft, run faster than horses.   

again, cracking the plate is just a prelude to more cracks. breaking the plate takes minutes long effort the shardbearers won't give you.

and those were 7ft tall war form parshendi. and I doubt they cracked it with one blow.

shardbearers stand under hails of arrow fire like they were pebbles, and pushed coins aren't that different.  now you may say coins rip through bodies. but that's  only because the force pushing the coins leverages the the mass of the pusher against the mass of soft intestine or skull or ribs. but the moment coins hit plate the force that was supposed to rip a body will transfer back pushing the mistborn away seeing how shardbearers are are heavy enough to break the back of a horse if they more the wrong way.

and no, coins are not launched with the same velocity of a bullet even if it seems like it. if you stop pushing on an object it just drops. they have no momentum.

[Frustration]

On 12/8/2020 at 5:52 AM, i’m in the details said:

Parshendi swinging one handed swords and hammers could crack plate with a single blow. 

No they didn't, Multiple Parshendi beat on Sadeas for several minuets, and he still hadn't broken his plate,

at the battle of the tower Dalinar got hit by stones the size of human heads, and all it did was puff stormlight, it didn't even crack.

Dalinar fell hundreds of feet through TWO entire houses, before coming to a stop and still beat a Shardbearer.

Dalinar held the weight af a creature almost 72 stories high, and that only cracked it.

No way are mistborn getting though that.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Ookla The Frustrated

[ScadrianTank]

7 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

No they didn't, Multiple Parshendi beat on Sadeas for several minuets, and he still hadn't broken his plate,

at the battle of the tower Dalinar got hit by stones the size of human heads, and all it did was puff stormlight, it didn't even crack.

Dalinar fell hundreds of feet through TWO entire houses, before coming to a stop and still beat a Shardbearer.

Dalinar held the weight af a creature almost 72 stories high, and that only cracked it.

No way are mistborn getting though that.

Coinshots would have an easier time because the damage of their attack is concentrated in a small area. In the last three examples you provided, the force of the attack is spread across multiple sections of the plate. So there is a way for Mistborn to get through, a difficult one, but it's better than nothing.

[StanLemon]

5 hours ago, mosaab said:

full Shardbearing radiant without surges but with stormlight beats Mistborn final empire version nine out of ten times, argument for waiting out the radiant's stormlight are not arguments for who can beat who in a straight fight.

Forcing the Radiant to use up all their Stormlight is a valid combat tactic. It's called a battle of attrition. 

Quote

shard plate cracks are a prelude to it breaking in 2 or 3 consecutive strikes at the same spot is a misconception, that only happens with shardblade strikes and it has more to do with the Conection severing nature of shardblades (separating the soul from the body, separating the lesser spren from each other?) than with the strength of the blade or strike, I think.

Powerful hits can also do it. Most strikes we've seen against Plate that weren't Blades that they last against for long periods have been piercing/ weapons. Brandon has consistently written strong bludgeoning hits have cracked Plate.

Just a matter of point, Brandon has said Vin with Atium would win against a 3rd Ideal Kaladin. This strongly implies almost any fight between a 3rd Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with Atium will fall in the Mistborn's favor. I bring this up for all the people underplaying just how much of an advantage Atium gives

Edited December 8, 2020 by StanLemon

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Forcing the Radiant to use up all their Stormlight is a valid combat tactic. It's called a battle of attrition. 

Fair

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Powerful hits can also do it. Most strikes we've seen against Plate that weren't Blades that they last against for long periods have been piercing/ weapons. Brandon has consistently written strong bludgeoning hits have cracked Plate.

What we're saying is you're underestimating plates sstrength, especially it's durability.

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Just a matter of point, Brandon has said Vin with Atium would win against a 3rd Ideal Kaladin. This strongly implies almost any fight between a 3rd Ideal Radiant and a Mistborn with Atium will fall in the Mistborn's favor. I bring this up for all the people underplaying just how much of an advantage Atium gives

Questioner

Who’d win, Vin or Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

On a battlefield Kaladin, off a battlefield probably Vin.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[XS-Terrain]

I think there is some underestimation of the power of firearms here. According to the Coppermind page on Shardplate,

Quote

Massive, blunt projectiles can also be used against Shardplate. At the Battle of the Tower, listeners use two-handed slings to hurl head-sized rocks at Dalinar; a single blow is enough to make cracks in an unharmed section of Plate.

We don't know how fast this this rock is going, but we can figure out how fast it would have to be going in order to have the same energy as a bullet. According to Google, the average density of a rock is about 3 g/cm^3, and the volume of the human head is about 3000 cm^3, meaning the rocks probably weighed somewhere around 9kg. According to Wikipedia, the .44 S&W American, a common revolver cartridge during the late 1800s, has a mass of about 13 g with a velocity of about 208 m/s^2. Assuming that energy determines whether or not the Shardplate is cracked, we can use the formula KE = 1/2 * m * v^2 to get 1/2 * 9kg * v^2 = 1/2 * 13g * 208 m/s^2, with v being the velocity the rock needs to achieve in order to equal the energy of the bullet. We get that v needs to be ~7.9 m/s. That's pretty fast for a 9kg rock, and that's only comparing it to a revolver cartridge. With something like a Lee-Enfield with the .303 British at 11 g and 761 m/s, the rock would need to be traveling at ~26.6 m/s. This isn't even considering the fact that a Steelpush, especially with Duralumin, would significantly increase the velocity of the bullet. Now, ultimately, all of this is meaningless because we don't know how fast the rock is traveling at, and we also don't know how much additional protection Living Plate provides. I would hazard to guess, however, that multiple revolver or especially rifle shots without reloading would be more than enough to break Shardplate.

Edited December 8, 2020 by XS-Terrain

[Lemiltock]

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Again, Renarin has Progression which lets him heal more quickly. Also, rereading that scene, Renarin doesn't get fully crushed. He cuts away at the hand as it is coming down. 

So he cuts a hole in the hand in the half second before hes squished  Renarin displayed a level of healing here akin to miles hundred lives. Yes it was likley enhanced by progragression but radiant healing is pretty op. And a thunderclast has much more stopping power than a mistborn.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

And a Mistborn's entire fighting style is centered around avoiding hits and delivering critical blows. Between Electrum and Atium, that's more than possible. Even without, it should be quite possible for a Mistborn to avoid. Especially if their is sufficient metal on the battlefield to Push off of and Pewter giving them quicker reflexes than the Radiant.

No, radiants in live plate and with storm light have at least the same reflexes and have more strength. Atium does give the mistborn a slight edge when burning it, but only while burning it. They are still a knife weilding cloth wearing person against magical sword weilding magical plate wearing person.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Point of reference. Chromium isn't instant but it's fast enough that it only would take a couple of seconds. Atium would allow the Mistborn to dodge any attack from the Radiant in those couple of seconds. Also, if a Mistborn has a gun, they would very quick burn through the Radiant's Stormlight as a gun only needs like two shots to break Plate.

For chromium they need to touch, to touch they need to move from out side the radiants range, touch them and move back out side said range so thats their atium gone for a second of touch, and at best they lose an arm in the process. It doesnt matter if you can see the future if the oppomenent can effecfivley cover themselves. Which a weapon morphing radiant can easily do.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

This statement is blatantly untrue. We have repeatedly seen Atium easily bypass pretty much any offense or defense

No weve seen atium allow a user to out manover. The difference in mistborn is for either party one shot is a kill (knife and cloth vs knife amd cloth) with a radiant the mistborn needs to do significantly more damage, just to get thriugh the plate, let alone the healing. Atium does not win them this battle unless they have unlitited, in which case unlimited stormlight stops thd plate from breaking ever and the radiant still wins.

15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Do the Radiants have a huge advantage advantage? Very much so. Are they unstoppable juggernauts, not even close. I'd wager 7-9 fights out of 10 a Radiant would win, but they wouldn't win every fight. And if we did give a Mistborn all 16 metals, Atium, and a gun I would argue it would be about 50/50 because guns are that much of a leveling factor

A normal gun against normal plate i agree wins every time, but shardolate is not normal plate, and live ate is likely better. A gun gives the mistborn more stopping power yes but given radiants can be engaged in battle for hours with warform parshendi swinging swords and maces, get beaten on by sharbearers for minutes etc etc. Shardplate is too much for a mistborn to handle.

14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I agree it would take a couple seconds.  But this is a couple seconds of sustained contact,  during which said Mistborn must dodge an instant kill weapon while limiting their range of motion deliberately. 2 seconds in combat is an awful long time to be that close to such lethal intent. Can it be done?  Possibly.  Atium would help a great deal.  A Leecher savant would do better, though one still must drain 2 layers of protection on a 4th Oath + Radiant.  

Not to mention getting into and out of range of the radiant.

 

13 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

I think people aren't discussing duralumin enough here. To deal enough damage to get past a Radiant's Shardplate and/or healing while staying out of Shardblade range, duralumin-enhanced steelpushes are really the obvious way to go. And if the Mistborn has access to all the metals, then after each flare of duralumin, they could throw up a bendalloy speed bubble, down another vial of metal while in sped up time, then drop the bubble and hit 'em with another duralumin attack so quickly, it will seem like almost no pause at all.

Which they get what 5,6 of these before theyre out of metal? Duralium increases stopping lower, but not enough to one hit kill a radiant so this is likley a poor tactic on the mistborn.

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would be enough. Locked Plate is even worse than no Plate. You'd be helpless.

Or the alternative of wearing them down. Metals last for decades. Gemstones for weeks.

 

We havnt yet seenive plate lock up, given its powered by living spren it may break for a time but i doubt sith the same draw backs. In either case the mistborn needs to drain said plate while not using all their metals. Given their lack of stopping power its not possible. At best the duralium pewter swing and maybe crack a piece, but then their no metals in melee range of a weapon morphing kill machine with enhanced strength and reflexies, ie theyre dead

7 hours ago, i’m in the details said:

Parshendi swinging one handed swords and hammers could crack plate with a single blow. Bullets generate far more force than even an enhanced weapon swing and hit a smaller surface area. If I had a super weapon swinging at me and I was a mistborn I’d throw up a bendalloy bubble and reposition, which is an advantage I’m not seeing mentioned enough. Also u less they order in question can fly, a mistborn can pretty easily stay out of the way of a shardblade, assuming the fight happens in a semi urban enviroment (enough metals). And finally mistborn can rapidly generate small arms fire velocity coins that would most certainly crack plate on a hit, again far more force with a smaller surface area than a hammer. How does a radiant who can’t fly stop a mistborn 20 feet in the air just yeeting coins and bullets at them? That said most fights maybe 6/10 depending on the order and the oaths I would give to radients. 

A bullet generates more power than a single hammer swing, but on several occasions weve seen minutes of beatings by crowds of stegnth enhanced foes and the plate hasnt been broken yet. So maybe they unload their weapon, dualioum push on it and crack a plate, what then. They can only carry so many bullets and metals, they run out before theyre through the plate

4 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Coinshots would have an easier time because the damage of their attack is concentrated in a small area. In the last three examples you provided, the force of the attack is spread across multiple sections of the plate. So there is a way for Mistborn to get through, a difficult one, but it's better than nothing.

Coins have very limited mass, not much velocity, and a terible shape for penetration, shardplate easily withstands thousands of coins shot at them. Better than nothing, sure, likely to succeed, no.

[Frustration]

@XS-Terrain the coppermind page overstates the damage, Dalinar got hit twice once on the shoulder, which only puffed stormlight no cracks, and once on the arm(I think the places are right) and it only cause small cracks, it would likely take four or more hit's in the smae place to break, without any healing.

[Lemiltock]

17 minutes ago, XS-Terrain said:

I think there is some underestimation of the power of firearms here. According to the Coppermind page on Shardplate,

We don't know how fast this this rock is going, we can figure out how fast it would have to be going in order to have the same energy as a bullet. According to Google, the average density of a rock is about 3 g/cm^3, and the volume of the human head is about 3000 cm^3, meaning the rocks probably weighed somewhere around 9kg. According to Wikipedia, the .44 S&W American, a common revolver cartridge during the late 1800s, has a mass of about 13 g with a mass of about 208 m/s^2. Assuming that energy determines whether or not the Shardplate is cracked, we can use the formula KE = 1/2 * m * v^2 to get 1/2 * 9kg * v^2 = 1/2 * 13g * 208 m/s^2, with v being the velocity the rock needs to achieve in order to equal the energy of the bullet. We get that v needs to be ~7.9 m/s. That's pretty fast for a 9kg rock, and that's only comparing it to a revolver cartridge. With something like a Lee-Enfield with the .303 British at 11 g and 761 m/s, the rock would need to be traveling at ~26.6 m/s. This isn't even considering the fact that a Steelpush, especially with Duralumin, would significantly increase the power of the bullet. Now, ultimately, all of this is meaningless because we don't know how fast the rock is traveling at, and we also don't know how much additional protection Living Plate provides. I would hazard to guess, however, that multiple revolver or especially rifle shots without reloading would be more than enough to break Shardplate.

The down side to this analysis is the shardplate. Normal plate armour cannot take several blows from maces  let alone from strength enhanced maces, yet shardplate handles this fine. It took minuets of Sadeas on the ground, a group of parshendi (strength enhanced warform) swinging with full body swings with maces/hammers, thats hundreds and hundreds of blows and Sadeas was still fine inside his shardplate. Guns, especially with duralium give much more stopping power, but thr amount they would need, if we assume they would work, is more than they can carry.