Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[NameIess]

Just now, Frustration said:

They're called bindpoints whether it's the recipiant or the donor

and there are multiple even in the heart.

I know that, but it makes no sense that you could only take attributes using the heart. It's just the easiest way to do steal things.

[BenduLuke]

I would have thought there would be more creative match ups proposed on this topic. I am sure there are people who are more versed than I am in either Scadrians or Rosharans. I have seen many people say Atium gives the advantage to Mistborn making them invincible and many say Shardplate and blades make radiants invincible. Or Radiants are invincible because they have major healing.

I would contend that someone like Wax or Miles not Wayne(he doesn't kill) could take out most Radiant's in most orders perhaps even Dalinar and even most Windrunners. Kaladin would probably defeat Wax, but maybe not Miles because of his talent in combat not so much his powers.

I also think if everyone applied their creativity to the problem they would find that there may be a majority of situations where Mistings, Twinborn, and Mistborn, all of which can legitimately be called mistborn, would win the contest. I have already proposed several obvious situations in which that is the case.

Let me propose another potential mistborn winner. An Iron lurcher twin with a spring loaded repeating projectile launcher loaded with aluminum projectiles(spikes, balls, bullets). The Iron twin could load massive weight to resist recoil from so the projectiles could have significant mass. The loader could be spring loaded to push projectile after projectile into the firing tube to be fired. The fireing mechanism could also be a powerful spring mechanism that can be pulled back to set position by the lurcher after each shot. If the projectile launcher were used to fire other metal projectiles even if the twin missed he would have a second chance by pulling the projectile back into his target and with his weight and massive leverage even shardplate might be overwhelmed. Plus he might be able to pull even a windrunner into his outstretched blade by their belt buckle or especially any metal on their back. An Iron twin would be the immovable object firing massive repeated rounds many with a boomerang effect at their opponent. And when they needed to move they could spiderman right out of there even with the most lightly anchored metal because he could store all that weight while pulling for escape.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Let me propose another potential mistborn winner. An Iron lurcher twin with a spring loaded repeating projectile launcher loaded with aluminum projectiles(spikes, balls, bullets). The Iron twin could load massive weight to resist recoil from so the projectiles could have significant mass. The loader could be spring loaded to push projectile after projectile into the firing tube to be fired. The fireing mechanism could also be a powerful spring mechanism that can be pulled back to set position by the lurcher after each shot. If the projectile launcher were used to fire other metal projectiles even if the twin missed he would have a second chance by pulling the projectile back into his target and with his weight and massive leverage even shardplate might be overwhelmed. Plus he might be able to pull even a windrunner into his outstretched blade by their belt buckle or especially any metal on their back. An Iron twin would be the immovable object firing massive repeated rounds many with a boomerang effect at their opponent. And when they needed to move they could spiderman right out of there even with the most lightly anchored metal because he could store all that weight while pulling for escape.

Yeah, but how are you going to aim that at a person?

[BenduLuke]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yeah, but how are you going to aim that at a person?

With a rifle-pistol sight or using blue metal lines.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

With a rifle-pistol sight or using blue metal lines.

I mean moving a weapon of sufficent size that an iron compounder is required to pull on the spring.

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I would have thought there would be more creative match ups proposed on this topic. I am sure there are people who are more versed than I am in either Scadrians or Rosharans. I have seen many people say Atium gives the advantage to Mistborn making them invincible and many say Shardplate and blades make radiants invincible. Or Radiants are invincible because they have major healing.

In any of those statements the speakers are clearly wrong.  Invincibility in war is a myth.  War is instead about making the best possible use of your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages.  In a direct matchup without atium a mistborn is going to have an extremely hard time against a forth ideal radiant.  Cracking plate is a difficult and time consuming process and one good hit by a shardweapon can immobilize the mistborn permanently while it will take several hits for the mistborn to start doing damage to the radiant.  Add in the fact that the radiant can heal and you have a major problem in an extended match.  The mistborn either has to survive until their enemies stormlight runs out or rely on a carefully planned tick/trap.  The problems with the first are obvious and the problem with the second is that traps can only be used to full effectiveness once or twice.  With a substantial atium supply things become much more even but the shear power available to radiants is still a problem.  You can easily come up with scenarios that allow even a mistling victories but you can't always rely on pulling them off.

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I mean moving a weapon of sufficent size that an iron compounder is required to pull on the spring.

I was considering a spring mechanism because it would be convenient for a lurcher and totally eliminates the chance of backfire or explosion from a soul caster or especially division wielder. Increased mass helps with resetting the springs, and recoil enabling greater momentum and larger projectiles. The weapon itself doesn't need to be especially heavy maybe the weight of a heavy rifle or pistol. In addition a lurcher of sufficient mass could maximize the springs compression.

[BenduLuke]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

In any of those statements the speakers are clearly wrong.  Invincibility in war is a myth.  War is instead about making the best possible use of your advantages while minimizing your disadvantages.  In a direct matchup without atium a mistborn is going to have an extremely hard time against a forth ideal radiant.  Cracking plate is a difficult and time consuming process and one good hit by a shardweapon can immobilize the mistborn permanently while it will take several hits for the mistborn to start doing damage to the radiant.  Add in the fact that the radiant can heal and you have a major problem in an extended match.  The mistborn either has to survive until their enemies stormlight runs out or rely on a carefully planned tick/trap.  The problems with the first are obvious and the problem with the second is that traps can only be used to full effectiveness once or twice.  With a substantial atium supply things become much more even but the shear power available to radiants is still a problem.  You can easily come up with scenarios that allow even a mistling victories but you can't always rely on pulling them off.

Atium is by no means necessary to win. I think twin combinations provide a much better chance of succes. such as a Steel twin which combines and compounds coinshot with steelrunner enabling both to be almost limitless. Even small projectiles fired at hyper-ballistic speeds are likely to pierce shardplate potentially overwhelming even radiant healing or draining stormlight very rapidly and lets not forget a steelrunner can move as fast as wind resistance allows without burning up and so could overwhelm the radiant with the shear number and force of strikes. Besides atium seems to be out of the picture in 2nd generation. Without vast luck you can't hit what you can't see. There is a twin whose very power is unlimited luck and a battle between them and a radiant could very well look like a cascade of devastating accidents in favor of the Mistborn and against the Radiant.

I would actually contend that there are many ways that Mistborn are more powerful than Radiant and if you consider it carefully you may see that as well. Shear combat is not the only measure of power and most Radiant's are not combat oriented and could be beaten in a strait up fight with the more combat oriented Mistborn of which their is more variety. That is why I am advocating once again that you put your creativity hat on and compare the various ability combinations in  contest between Mistborn and Radiants. It might even be worthwhile to create a march madness style matchup graph to compare them to see which group overall comes in with the most potential wins and how.

[Karger]

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Atium is by no means necessary to win. I think twin combinations provide a much better chance of succes. such as a Steel twin which combines and compounds coinshot with steelrunner enabling both to be almost limitless.

Necessary no.  The easiest method probably.  Getting any combination of twinborn is super difficult.  Double steel is a really good one for physical combat and paired with a gun it does provide a good chance of victory.  However of the one in one hundred thousand chances you have of getting a twinborn only one in two hundreed and fifty six are the ones you think and once that individual twinborn dies you can't recover them or train a new one.  Scadrail's problem is not that they will loose every single match up.  Their problem is that on the balance they will probably loose more fights then they win. 

18 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I would actually contend that there are many ways that Mistborn are more powerful than Radiant and if you consider it carefully you may see that as well. Shear combat is not the only measure of power and most Radiant's are not combat oriented and could be beaten in a strait up fight with the more combat oriented Mistborn of which their is more variety. That is why I am advocating once again that you put your creativity hat on and compare the various ability combinations in  contest between Mistborn and Radiants.

Thinking an opponent is not inventive is a common mistake made by loosing armies everywhere.  Sure mistborn can be inventive but that does not mean that they have a monopoly on that quality.  Clever uses of powers are just as accessible to surgebinding as they are to the metalic arts.  Additionally tricks run out.  You can't expect one to work forever as your opponent will eventually wise up and train against it.  Successful campaigns rely just as much as figuring out new tricks and adapting against old ones. Yes your stealrunner will be a problem until a carefully prepared trap lands him in a field with an edgedancer who has applied abrasion to the entire floor sticking the compounder to the ground.  Your next stealrunner will learn from that mistake but the radiants will be improvising as well.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Karger

[BenduLuke]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Necessary no.  The easiest method probably.  Getting any combination of twinborn is super difficult.  Double steel is a really good one for physical combat and paired with a gun it does provide a good chance of victory.  However of the one in one hundred thousand chances you have of getting a twinborn only one in two hundreed and fifty six are the ones you think and once that individual twinborn dies you can't recover them or train a new one.  Scadrail's problem is not that they will loose every single match up.  Their problem is that on the balance they will probably loose more fights then they win. 

Thinking an opponent is not inventive is a common mistake made by loosing armies everywhere.  Sure mistborn can be inventive but that does not mean that they have a monopoly on that quality.  Clever uses of powers are just as accessible to surgebinding as they are to the metalic arts.  Additionally tricks run out.  You can't expect one to work forever as your opponent will eventually wise up and train against it.  Successful campaigns rely just as much as figuring out new tricks and adapting against old ones. Yes your stealrunner will be a problem until a carefully prepared trap lands him in a field with an edgedancer who has applied abrasion to the entire floor sticking the compounder to the ground.  Your next stealrunner will learn from that mistake but the radiants will be improvising as well.

Not sure I have seen an edgedancer sticking someone in place that sounds more like a windrunner trick.

Why don't you come up with some of the inventive strategies that the various match ups might come up with to defeat each other. A compounded steelrunner might be moving so fast if they are even on the ground that he might rip the floor up before he gets stuck or might not even step where the glue spot is even if it is yards wide. besides an edgedancer is more likely to make the floor slippery causing a prat fall.

A pewter twin with aluminum spiked gauntlets could cause a lot of trouble for most radiants as well since aluminum has the tendancy to disrupt investiture and as a spike can nullify invested powers.

A bronze twin could be extremely dangerous with the ability to detect anti investiture pulses they could design weapons deadly to any invested being, and because they never need to sleep with near infinite awareness could wait to strike when their target is totally unaware. They would be the batman or assassin of the cosmere with time and resources.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Not sure I have seen an edgedancer sticking someone in place that sounds more like a windrunner trick.

increasing friction means they won't be able to move.

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

Why don't you come up with some of the inventive strategies that the various match ups might come up with to defeat each other.

it would be easier to do that if we have a specific setup first, say

oath 3 skybreaker vs Coinshot, Bloodmaker twinborn

Another thing is, if we are pitting these two sides together Radiants have one final advantage, expendability, a lost Radiant is much easier to recover than a metalborn.

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

increasing friction means they won't be able to move.

it would be easier to do that if we have a specific setup first, say

oath 3 skybreaker vs Coinshot, Bloodmaker twinborn

Another thing is, if we are pitting these two sides together Radiants have one final advantage, expendability, a lost Radiant is much easier to recover than a metalborn.

No one is expendable to themselves. Even members of the same radiant order don't cultivate the same skills equally.

If you have 2 allomantic skills you have all allomantic skills so did you mean Full Mistborn gold fering vs 3rd oath skybreaker? If so the healing advantage is a toss up. duralumin powered pewter could even up some of the durability and strength advantages. The skybreaker would have a more versatile flying ability but not on the level of windrunners. Shardblade and maybe even division damage could be nullified by emergency aluminum burning after which the mistborn needs a new infusion of metals. Both could probably take advantage of the highstorm to power their abilities. The mistborn would have the advantage of ranged attacks in physical, emotional, and mental arenas and might have an advantage in armaments. There would not likely be a one hit kill to this fight and I would give the mistborn the advantage due to their ranged attack and defense capabilities. it would likely take a 4th oath Radiant to almost even the odds. So long as the radiant has any metal on them the mistborn could use that to be just as maneuverable as their opponent and could keep their distance while bombarding the Radiant with almost any metal object in the area. Low light conditions would add to the advantage of the Mistborn as well.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

If you have 2 allomantic skills you have all allomantic skills

Unless hemalurgy or southern medalions.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, BenduLuke said:

No one is expendable to themselves. Even members of the same radiant order don't cultivate the same skills equally.

A Radiant can be replaced by any sentient creature with the right character matrix, while Metalborn are born. Replacing a Radiant takes at best a few days

Replacing a Metalborn takes at least ten years.

3 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

If you have 2 allomantic skills you have all allomantic skills so did you mean Full Mistborn gold fering vs 3rd oath skybreaker? If so the healing advantage is a toss up. duralumin powered pewter could even up some of the durability and strength advantages. The skybreaker would have a more versatile flying ability but not on the level of windrunners. Shardblade and maybe even division damage could be nullified by emergency aluminum burning after which the mistborn needs a new infusion of metals. Both could probably take advantage of the highstorm to power their abilities. The mistborn would have the advantage of ranged attacks in physical, emotional, and mental arenas and might have an advantage in armaments. There would not likely be a one hit kill to this fight and I would give the mistborn the advantage due to their ranged attack and defense capabilities. it would likely take a 4th oath Radiant to almost even the odds. So long as the radiant has any metal on them the mistborn could use that to be just as maneuverable as their opponent and could keep their distance while bombarding the Radiant with almost any metal object in the area. Low light conditions would add to the advantage of the Mistborn as well.

Dude, Coinshot, bloodmaker.

That is one allomantic power, and one feruchemidic power, and thus twinborn.

 

[BenduLuke]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Unless hemalurgy or southern medalions.

Fair enough. The coin shot still has the advantage of range which is substantial and would allow for them to avoid close contact and aid in low light conditions if the Radiant had any metal on them. 

[BenduLuke]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

A Radiant can be replaced by any sentient creature with the right character matrix, while Metalborn are born. Replacing a Radiant takes at best a few days

Replacing a Metalborn takes at least ten years.

Dude, Coinshot, bloodmaker.

That is one allomantic power, and one feruchemidic power, and thus twinborn.

 

I think he might have been refering to Miles with a spike that gives allomantic steel.

you bring up another point which is that a mistborn could more easily obtain radiant abilities than a radiant could obtain allomantic abilities. Without very precise hemalurgy I can think of no way a Radiant would have access to feruchemy.

If neither knew about the abilities of the other when the fight started that might be interesting. The coinshot keeping his distance and firing projectiles at the skybreaker until he ran out of stormlight and his healing stopped. use metal pushes to dodge out of the way while the skybreaker runs into a wall with a metal assisted push. Until the skybreaker realized that the coinshot was using any metal against him he would be at a sever disadvantage. If he realized the odds would even up.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, BenduLuke said:

Fair enough. The coin shot still has the advantage of range which is substantial and would allow for them to avoid close contact and aid in low light conditions if the Radiant had any metal on them. 

Radiants would quickly stop wearing metal in any prolonged conflict.  That would be rule one.

[Frustration]

43 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I think he might have been refering to Miles with a spike that gives allomantic steel.

I was talking to you, A-steel F-gold.

44 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

you bring up another point which is that a mistborn could more easily obtain radiant abilities than a radiant could obtain allomantic abilities. Without very precise hemalurgy I can think of no way a Radiant would have access to feruchemy.

Only thing is using connection powers is far easier and faster than both Hemalurgy and hanging around enemy territory hoping one of the enemy will decide to join you.

[BenduLuke]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Radiants would quickly stop wearing metal in any prolonged conflict.  That would be rule one.

As we are talking about a 3rd oath Skybreaker the coinshot might start using pistols with hazekiller rounds and pushing metals at the skybreaker to aid in avoiding them as well as projectiles to injure. again range is a hard advantage to overcome even with a skybreakers mobility. If some of those projectiles used for attack included welded aluminum until it was removed it would mess with the skybreakers healing, their gravity surges and maybe their division surge assuming they could get close enough to touch the coinshot.

Eventually the skybreaker might use their gravity surges to push low mass objects at the coinshot and as long as it doesn't have any metal it would be hard to deflect or avoid. In addition in combination with their division surge those potential projectiles might be explosive, incendiary, or biologically destructive. Which could tax the bloodmaker abilities of the coinshot.

[BenduLuke]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I was talking to you, A-steel F-gold.

Only thing is using connection powers is far easier and faster than both Hemalurgy and hanging around enemy territory hoping one of the enemy will decide to join you.

I finally got it a little before you responded.

How do you think the coinshot-bloodmaker fight with the 3rd oath skybreaker might go? I actually think that the coinshot-blood maker would have a decent chance against a 4th oath skybreaker though it would take more effort to overcome the shardplate advantage. Perhaps if the coinshot had aluminum laced chainmail it might minimize the threat of the shardblade without overly reducing their maneuverability and ranged attacks and defenses. I say chain because solid aluminum would block allamantic pulses.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

I finally got it a little before you responded.

How do you think the coinshot-bloodmaker fight with the 3rd oath skybreaker might go? I actually think that the coinshot-blood maker would have a decent chance against a 4th oath skybreaker though it would take more effort to overcome the shardplate advantage. Perhaps if the coinshot had aluminum laced chainmail it might minimize the threat of the shardblade without overly reducing their maneuverability and ranged attacks and defenses. I say chain because solid aluminum would block allamantic pulses.

It would still cause interference, it's a feild effect.

[Bigmikey357]

Division can probably be cast at range. Releasers were artillery on the battlefield and I have no reason to believe the surge would work differently for a Skybreaker. But if it needs contact to work, lash a bunch of rocks to the sky. Set them on fire. Send flaming debris via lashing at coinshot. Instant directed non-deflectable meteor shower. Inhale a bag of Stormlight.  Repeat until dead. 

[Karger]

6 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

As we are talking about a 3rd oath Skybreaker the coinshot might start using pistols with hazekiller rounds and pushing metals at the skybreaker to aid in avoiding them as well as projectiles to injure. again range is a hard advantage to overcome even with a skybreakers mobility. If some of those projectiles used for attack included welded aluminum until it was removed it would mess with the skybreakers healing, their gravity surges and maybe their division surge assuming they could get close enough to touch the coinshot.

You are putting a mid level radiant against a technologically proficient coinshot.  Roshar should have guns soon themselves anyway and would develop them much faster if exposed to an enemy that carries them in such large numbers.

[Raven Wilder]

Presumably, the Skybreaker could turn their Shardblade into a Shardshield, crouch behind it, and then just fly/charge at the Coinshot/Bloodmaker at full speed.

[BenduLuke]

On 12/23/2020 at 3:38 PM, Frustration said:

It would still cause interference, it's a feild effect.

Then create aluminum laced Gauntlets, bracers, and or weapons all but chest plates to avoid blocking surges, and lace them with gold for metal minds.

 

On 12/23/2020 at 8:16 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Division can probably be cast at range. Releasers were artillery on the battlefield and I have no reason to believe the surge would work differently for a Skybreaker. But if it needs contact to work, lash a bunch of rocks to the sky. Set them on fire. Send flaming debris via lashing at coinshot. Instant directed non-deflectable meteor shower. Inhale a bag of Stormlight.  Repeat until dead. 

Creative use of surges very good. It is my understanding that Skybreakers are limited in their gravity surges compared to windrunners, but a coinshot might still be able to dodge that type of attack or interfere with nearby metal. Bloodmaker could recover from injuries for a while. Skybreaker would still be vulnerable to any metal on their person until they realized that was a vulnerability and for a time after realizing it may still forget the various metal items they are carrying. (buckles, weapons, buttons, nails in their boots, odds are they carry many seemingly insignificant metal items, but when dealing with a Coinshot no metal is insignificant.

 

On 12/23/2020 at 9:40 PM, Karger said:

You are putting a mid level radiant against a technologically proficient coinshot.  Roshar should have guns soon themselves anyway and would develop them much faster if exposed to an enemy that carries them in such large numbers.

You are right that ranged attacks such as guns are an advantage for Mistborn initially at this moment in the 2 arcs. Eventually like bigmikey357 indicated skybreakers could have their own ranged deadly attacks with a little creativity. Windrunners could have potentially guided missles with reverse lashings and low mass items. By the time Rosharans have ranged weapons some Scadrians could have bonded Spren.

Only in an initial engagement would their likely be existing advantages to either side. As soon as either realized what the other could do it would no longer be the more technically advanced mistborn vs the bonded radiants, but Rosharans might quickly acquire tech and Scadrians might quickly acquire Spren however Rosharans would be less likely to acquire allomancy or feruchemy giving Scadrians an advantage still.

On 12/24/2020 at 6:05 PM, Raven Wilder said:

Presumably, the Skybreaker could turn their Shardblade into a Shardshield, crouch behind it, and then just fly/charge at the Coinshot/Bloodmaker at full speed.

And the coinshot could dodge the attack and keep their distance while using the Skybreakers momentum metal pushing them even faster into a wall or the ground from behind. If countered both would be spinning in faster circles around an axis as the skybreaker tries to readjust to the push from behind. Shield or Sword it makes no difference. The coinshot in the mean time continues to fire more and more projectiles possibly sharp projectiles at the Skybreaker until their stormlight runs out or something else changes. It is likely that the Skybreaker will be metal pushed into a wall or the ground hard in the direction of their lashing.